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Showcase of Power v3.6: The Ganondorf Video Thread

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
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Only 30 seconds in and a Mario dash attack goes unpunished on shield. Freakin Mario.
You later started punishing those dash attacks with dairs but those were only working due to him messing up, imo uair or nair oos is probably a better response (wavedash back ftilt/dtilt could work too).
Mario's recovery can be tough to edgeguard cause lol 7 frames of intangibility and good hitboxes but there were a bunch of times you could've just grabbed ledge and that would've been it.
What was up with the dthrow dsmashes? Input errors?

Didn't really matter much though cause you were better than him.

Also @ The_NZA The_NZA Ganon's jab isn't frame 1, it's frame 3.
Thanks for the correction. I wasn't sure :D.
 

Bazkip

Smash Master
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I try to shieldgrab by instinct, which sucks against Mario.
I know the dairs are bad, it's a habit I'm trying to get rid of. I'm not sure uair or nair OoS would hit Mario, isn't he too short for that? I've been trying to force myself to WD back OoS in that situation, which I think is the best option, but have to give it conscious thought to execute it.
I often get punished for trying to grab ledge against Mario, because he can up-B on reaction (similar to Roy), so I usually try to wait for and punish side- or down-B instead. I admit I was also being lazy in this particular set.
Every dthrow dsmash was meant to be dthrow dair.
Uair and nair are quick and uair in particular starts low so I think they might work but I dunno for certain. I need to check that. But yeah wd back might actually be best.
 

CORY

wut
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They start sorta low, but I don't think they're low enough to catch Mario recovering from dash attack. I think the most consistent punish would probably be upb oos, since you have a decent amount of time to pick your side for it. Wd back to something might be good as well, but I'm not good enough at wd oos to know its applications very well.
 

Lafungo

Smash Rookie
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Feb 24, 2014
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What about usmash OoS? It should connect if Mario goes deep enough on Ganon's shield, but would it come out fast enough?
 

CORY

wut
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I want to say no on a gut level, because most of usmash's range is vertical. It has about 20 frames of startup, but I have no frame of reference for when that'll line up with your shield stun vs his recovery.

You also can't turn it around, unlike possible oos aerials and upb oos, making it more specific to land.

I would need to mess around with debug a lot to get any actual hard data on it, though...
 

Bazkip

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Okay so I was messing around in debug and turns out uair's active hitboxes start way higher than I thought they did, oops. Definitely won't work. If you fastfall aerial though it should work but that's adding more delay to it so I dunno if that'll still be able to punish. Oh well. So yeah wavedash back ftilt/dtilt is most likely the best option. Or yeah upB, that should work too.

Crotch hitbox of upsmash might hit but probably doesn't.
 

bubbaking

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So is it generally poor etiquette to post twitch links? I'm not sure if my matches from our last monthly are gonna be uploaded and I would really like some feedback on my neutral game and help with the Marth match up.
If you're not sure that your matches are gonna be uploaded, then I suggest you rip the stream and upload them yourself. What I generally do is rip the stream before it disappears from the twitch archive (two weeks). That way, at least you have the footage for yourself before it's gone for good, but you can wait and see if you'll have to go through the hassle of uploading it yourself or if the streamer will actually upload it for you.
 

bubbaking

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They start sorta low, but I don't think they're low enough to catch Mario recovering from dash attack. I think the most consistent punish would probably be upb oos, since you have a decent amount of time to pick your side for it. Wd back to something might be good as well, but I'm not good enough at wd oos to know its applications very well.
...we can't just stomp OoS? :confused:
 

CORY

wut
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Maybe if he hits you with it early? It's 5frame jumpsquat plus 16 (I think...) Frame startup, after shieldstun. If he gets greedy you might be able to oos dair, but I'd imagine it's not going to occur that often...
 

bubbaking

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15 frames of start-up (hitbox is active on frame 16). The execution might be a little tight but it's definitely doable since, at its safest, Mario's DA is -22 on block, and that's only if Mario makes sure to hit with last hitbox at frame 25, making the whole thing entirely reactable. Cross-ups are annoying, but they're even more reactable since they have to hit early.
 

bubbaking

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I actually have a lot of experience in this MU as I've played against our up-and-coming best Ganon several times with Zard. Personally, I actually think this MU is a little closer to even. Lolz, I heard the commentators disagreeing with you about your opinions on the MU. :p

I only analyzed the first game. I might take a look at the Ike one later.

0:26 - Get off the ledge a bit faster than that. When Zard is crouching there, it's a clear indicator that he's fishing for dtilt (or CC dtilt if you try to get-up attack). Zard's actually really good at covering the ledge with hitboxes to make ledgestalling and ledgehops difficult, so you should probably get off as soon as you can while you still have invincibility.

0:33 - You are not respecting Zard's nair. This became a recurring theme throughout the match. The move is big, but it's very punishable. You just have to remember that it hits twice behind him, once to start and once to end. If you shield the first hit, then you are free to punish the rest of the move. If not, you can still hit it before the tail wraps back around, but you have to be wary of that final hit. Many Zards catch people with that part only because they are not being diligent. Also, Ganon is a tall char, so nair OoS will hit his head if you use unsafe tactics behind Zard. Zards will fish for that move super hard if they approach with Zard's back. Some will RAR nair (not enough do, though), but many will just WD backwards > reverse nair at you, so watch for the telltale signs.

1:09 - You should know...Zard's dtilt is completely disjointed. Most of his tail and wing moves are, actually. :p

1:13 - You didn't get punished here, but I noticed you've been using a LOT of regular get-ups ever since Zard punished your first ledgehop/stall with dtilt. This doesn't sound like a good idea, especially over 100%. You have enough ledge invincibility to do a fully invincible ledgehop or ledgedash, so I think you should use that more.

1:15 - AFC > jab is BnB (and I would probably do it too, because I am lazy), but you definitely have better follow-ups here. I think you could have grabbed. Since you're so far behind on %'s, you really need those heavy punishes right now. Onstage, Ganon probably has harder punishes than Zard if you do it right.

1:23 - So I just want to spend a moment to talk about your neutral game. I've watched some of your matches and I feel that you're a little too straightforward, especially against faster chars who can punish bad commitments. I personally feel that you should mix in floats and different mix-up options a bit more. For instance, here, I feel a float (maybe into bair, maybe into something else) would have benefitted you, since Zard was just DDing at a safe distance waiting for u to commit as you tried to land (which you did via the straightforward bair). With a float, you could bait Zard into coming at you, which you could THEN punish with bair. If Zard refused to commit, you could just WL or DJ WL out and be fine. It's not always best to put out a big hitbox to cover yourself.

1:32 - See? This is what I feel is you being too straightforward. You fair > jab and Zard rolls behind the jab (bad move on his part because he could have just shieldgrabbed the jab). Then you DD a little and do the same sequence. Zard responds in kind. The interesting thing is that you could have punished the roll behind you (it's super reactable), but you chose to DD away instead. When you came back in, you did the same exact pressure which didn't lead to much and could have been bad if this Zard didn't keep panic-rolling like this. Luckily, Zard did roll and you got the roll punish this time.

1:35 - You go for bair, but Zard techrolls in right in front of you. GRAB, I say! Well, you jabbed and that's fine, but it was shielded. NOW GRAB, I say! You kept jabbing, and while this one hit, you got nothing off that hit other than stage position when a grab would have been safe (Zard's back was facing you) and would have given you a very hard punish.

1:59 - Very bad spot to jump. Your back is to Zard, who just landed right behind you. This is a bad position, but the one thing you don't want to do is something that Zard can easily counter with his best AA option: jab. Leaving the ground at all simply loses to that move at this range. The thing is, I believe that Zard didn't react to you. He was gonna jab anyway. If you had shielded (scary, I know, 'cause he could always grab you instead), then jab would have hit your shield and you would have gotten a free out or maybe even a bair or upB OoS.

2:04 - Stop jumping when Zard is on top of you like this. I can tell you right now from Zard's perspective, when Ganons (or anyone) do this, it's a cue to run-cancel jab, DA, dash usmash, or (my personal favorite) RAR nair. Honestly, in this pinned position, your best bet might be to roll out of there. Ganon has decent rolls and this Zard is just going in right now, so that may have been the thing to do. Jumping is not, though.

2:08 - A shot in the dark, and Niak read through it completely.

2:21 - Again, there are definitely bigger punishes you can get here than a tech-chase (I'm gonna assume that AD was an attempt at WL on the plat to tech-chase). I just checked @ CORY CORY 's AFC follow-up post (CORY, please pin that thing somewhere; it's gahlike). You're guaranteed utilt, grab, DA, and ftilt. Grab and utilt sound incredible, and DA isn't bad at high %'s.

2:30 - Not exactly sure why you ran out of the f-thrower when you were still invincible, lolz.

2:58 - Another shot in the dark...

Also, I suspect that the two times you got uair > upB'd, you weren't DIing, especially on the last one 'cause you, like, flew straight up above him.

I would say the biggest thing that could help your gameplay right now is some mix-ups at neutral. I wanna see more floats, more tomahawks, more fair into not-jab. Your movement otherwise is very solid. ;) Matchup-wise, don't feed into Zard's super powerful anti-air game. Make sure you jump with enough distance to safely fade back and/or space your moves. Also, when Zard is above you, I think you could stand to shark a little more with uairs. You threw out a lot of usmashes and I couldn't tell if they were technical flubs or actual choices. Zard actually has a little bit of trouble coming down this patch. If you crouch under plats, you should be able to avoid (or CC) most of his nair so you can punish landings. If you're feeling a bit risque, you could even go for AFCs to cover the plats. Something else that's nice is FH AC nair onto plats into free shield pressure.
 
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Bazkip

Smash Master
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Here's my set against HammerTime from Summit
https://youtu.be/DgU6PfioBQ4

First stock was super good...and then it just went downhill from there.
Lots of bad sideBs, I don't usually do that, I guess that was just nerves.

That ending, rip my dignity ;-;

G&W is some serious cheese.

Also lol Anther after the match.
 
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Bazkip

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We had a tourney on Saturday and I got a bunch of sets recorded.

vs TKM (Zelda/Sheik) - https://youtu.be/kg-6L-XMiM4

vs Boreal_Holy (Meta Knight) - https://youtu.be/fBLRZ2I49jM
Start of game one actually went surprising well...can we pretend the rest didn't happen? >_>

vs MM | Trntu (Link) - https://youtu.be/T7P6T43l4yI
ugh just played like trash here

vs MM | Bobo (Ivysaur, Falcon, Ganon, Marth) - https://youtu.be/micmxmO-gMI
So Bobo is one of our top players but he just went random characters against me after game one and I ended up beating him...we take those I guess lol

vs Lafungo (Ganon) - https://youtu.be/06e3tRt5X-E
This is probably the worst set of Project M ever recorded lmao
**** Lylat
@ Lafungo Lafungo why are our matches always so cheese

Oh and I'll post this other set of Lafungo's while I'm here
vs Mugifi (Mario, Yoshi) - https://youtu.be/L4ulJaTVLj4
 
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Lafungo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
12
@ Lafungo Lafungo why are our matches always so cheese
I despise playing the Ganon ditto in tournament, and I blame it all on you.

Here are the last sets I played on stream at Smashing Grounds before heading back to Montreal:

SG 7.9:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iljoFPGGkOc - vs. Seed?/Doodlmyr
They ran doubles instead of Melee the week before Blacklisted.

Blacklisted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2cW7hgSOA - vs. Steel Kangaroo/Blanky
We ended up getting 9th, which tied us for second-best New England team with Bloodcross/Spaz and Twisty/Sora, behind Shane/Numerics. Brackets are funny like that.

SG 8.1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hk-S6oWkU - vs. Vorpal
Vorpal ended up getting Top 8, whereas I got 13th. Brackets are infuriating like that.
 
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Bazkip

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Kage showed up at our PM weekly yesterday so I've got a few vids for you guys

Kage vs Lafungo (Ganon) - https://youtu.be/dtu0kDnxu0s
@ Lafungo Lafungo always with the jank game victories lol

Kage vs Carlil (Roy) - https://youtu.be/r1ODQbn9IaE
I think this is legally classified as murder

Kage vs Cheet (Ness) - https://youtu.be/f2nDX0B6cd0

Kage vs steakhouse (Toon Link) - https://youtu.be/iugxlWPq8xA
welp

Also played two sets myself on stream

Baz vs Rogue (Snake) - https://youtu.be/1TjZimdohNU
lol

Baz vs Carlil (Roy) - https://youtu.be/lrlXVbNVArQ
rip the 4-stock comeback ;_;
At least Kage got revenge for me lol
 

CORY

wut
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got me some pool sets recorded at our monthly, finally. when they get put on youtube i expect you guys to rip me apart, play by play, so i can figure out how to not be a **** up : D < 3
 

CORY

wut
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damn, he turned around and got them uploaded really fast.
both of these are versus the top two seeds in my pool. i don't think i've ever taken a game off of azer in friendlies, money matches, tourney, anything ;x
ab:jl i played in pools at ltc3 and got my counterpick game off of him, iirc, and even that was really close (if i'm actually remembering correctly...).



i got free donuts at krispy kreme for the pirate costume, so you guys know.

i'll probably literally write up my own play by play to myself later on, but i need to do a bit of homework first (and then i have errands and cooking to do when my gf gets home), so who knows if i'll be able to legit triple post here : p
 

Bazkip

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damn, he turned around and got them uploaded really fast.
both of these are versus the top two seeds in my pool. i don't think i've ever taken a game off of azer in friendlies, money matches, tourney, anything ;x
ab:jl i played in pools at ltc3 and got my counterpick game off of him, iirc, and even that was really close (if i'm actually remembering correctly...).



i got free donuts at krispy kreme for the pirate costume, so you guys know.

i'll probably literally write up my own play by play to myself later on, but i need to do a bit of homework first (and then i have errands and cooking to do when my gf gets home), so who knows if i'll be able to legit triple post here : p
You got zero normal grabs on Smashville, that's basically a free stock against Bowser. I'm not sure if taking him to WL was the best idea either, I think we benefit more from larger stages since our recovery covers far more distance, and it's not like Bowser can camp us out. Speaking of recovery, you seemed to give his too much respect, a well placed should deal with Bowser's upB just fine. You do have to respect him on the ledge though. On your end of the recoveries there seemed to be a lack of sweetspot attempts. You should never get hit by Boozer fsmash, cory pls.
There were a few times you seemed to try to Wizard's Foot in an attempt to beat things out? It does have a bit of pull back but it's not a whole lot and it's slow, doesn't do that too well, and he was also at low percent so you may have been punished on hit regardless. Flame choke would've been a better option, since it has more pull back on the start and grab priority to beat things.
I'm pretty sure KK fthrow to aerial KK only works on bad DI, DI-ing out probably gets you away from it. Your DI on some of the KK bthrows were also questionable.

Why do you seem to keep ending up on Smashville game 1 that's not good for us. Strike that ****.
By your own data you can grab Snake out of AFC. Dsmash is nice and all but imo that's only really worth attempting on the characters that we can't grab, since when we can grab it's pretty much always going to be the optimal option. I know the timing for grab can be pretty tight though but again from your data we can dtilt Snake, that seems to be way easier to do and leads into stuff as well.
At a minute in you jabbed him on the platform...and then ran off? You put him in the corner, go and press your advantage man.

You then put him in the corner and go for it, but way too late and from way too far.
You got both ends of the spectrum so wrong in like 5 seconds.
Corry pls
And then you ran into a mine
CORY PLS
I'm guessing you thought you were still invincible though lol
Oh god this is a trainwreck
Seems like you tilted after the SD
rip

Did you really not even punish him for reloading.
I don't want to watch this anymore.

cory pls ;w;
 

CORY

wut
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on kk: i have very little experience against bowser, so i "know" the proper di's, but i don't know how to react to the setups for it, since the grab-throw happens very quickly, so i end up eating really dumb stuff ;x next tourney i go to i'll probably mm ab:jl or calm animal a bit to get some seriouslies going for experience.

is smashville really that bad, though? i've always felt it to not be bad. or is it more of a matchup specific thing? if it's overall a bad starting stage for us (or even just in those matchups), what do you normally like to aim for and why? trying to understand your mindset on that.

not enough experience with snake, so i forget my own frame data : / i'll definitely work on that, dtilt is a pretty good safe conversion to aim for out of afc.

OH GOD THE NO PUNISH ON RELOAD! i totally ****ed that up. like, i think i tried to dash-sh, but missed the sh because i'm a scrub, then tried to correct by dash attacking, but i had fumbled out a jump and it just fell apart after that D : i completely remember real time thinking "ok, he's reloading, get him!" then "wait, why didn't i jump? ok, just dash attack and bair him because he'll di behind you. wait, why am i in the air now?" then "ok... platform ****ing this up? no? well, too bad because i just ****ed it myself, gg, scrub..."

i still haven't gone back to critique myself yet. when i do, i'll put it up here, still, so you guys can see what i'm thinking and let me know if it's looking on track.
 

Bazkip

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on kk: i have very little experience against bowser, so i "know" the proper di's, but i don't know how to react to the setups for it, since the grab-throw happens very quickly, so i end up eating really dumb stuff ;x next tourney i go to i'll probably mm ab:jl or calm animal a bit to get some seriouslies going for experience.

is smashville really that bad, though? i've always felt it to not be bad. or is it more of a matchup specific thing? if it's overall a bad starting stage for us (or even just in those matchups), what do you normally like to aim for and why? trying to understand your mindset on that.

not enough experience with snake, so i forget my own frame data : / i'll definitely work on that, dtilt is a pretty good safe conversion to aim for out of afc.

OH GOD THE NO PUNISH ON RELOAD! i totally ****ed that up. like, i think i tried to dash-sh, but missed the sh because i'm a scrub, then tried to correct by dash attacking, but i had fumbled out a jump and it just fell apart after that D : i completely remember real time thinking "ok, he's reloading, get him!" then "wait, why didn't i jump? ok, just dash attack and bair him because he'll di behind you. wait, why am i in the air now?" then "ok... platform ****ing this up? no? well, too bad because i just ****ed it myself, gg, scrub..."

i still haven't gone back to critique myself yet. when i do, i'll put it up here, still, so you guys can see what i'm thinking and let me know if it's looking on track.
KK is one of those things that you just need to expect cause it's one of their go to punishes. Then it's just guessing which throw they're gonna use based off context clues (generally fthrow except when you're at high percents or near the ledge). Doesn't seem like dthrow gets a whole lot of uses except for the aerial spike to kill.

Against Bowser Smashville is actually fine cause he's big and slow like us and dthrow chaingrab into oblivion, but generally I think it's an awful stage for us. It's medium sized FD that occasionally has a platform, that doesn't spell a lot in our favour. The perk of being able to chaingrab uninterrupted is not worth the lack of platform coverage, except for in a few matchups against other slow characters who can't camp us out. I usually aim for Battlefield.

I put your list of followups on my phone so I can check it before sets, don't think it's reasonable to expect to remember it all offhand.
 

CORY

wut
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damn, he turned around and got them uploaded really fast.
both of these are versus the top two seeds in my pool. i don't think i've ever taken a game off of azer in friendlies, money matches, tourney, anything ;x
ab:jl i played in pools at ltc3 and got my counterpick game off of him, iirc, and even that was really close (if i'm actually remembering correctly...).



i got free donuts at krispy kreme for the pirate costume, so you guys know.

i'll probably literally write up my own play by play to myself later on, but i need to do a bit of homework first (and then i have errands and cooking to do when my gf gets home), so who knows if i'll be able to legit triple post here : p
ok, just doing my set against ab:jl.

24s: what was that dash attack for? he was going to be out of range and it's not safe at all if it doesn't hit. watch for your spacing on things like that.
30s: start properly di-ing kk throws.
34s: learn to aim your recovery, that should've been a ledge grab, not fly onto the stage into bowser's waiting open arms.
38s: why did you think wiz kick was a valid option after teching? should've gone for a roll away or a spotdodge (or even just a straight shield)
44s: that was a better recovery, but you can go a bit lower with it. good plan on the wd onstage, you like to afc onstage a lot and it's super predictable. it might've actually worked here, but not getting hit by fsmash is much more important.
46s: you could've jumped earlier and thrown out that bair to catch the upb. it probably wouldn't have hit if he'd gone low and then dj-up'd, but you would've been safe in that case from the upb and could've probably still attempted to hit him.
48s and 52s: why do you keep charging in at him? start incorporating wd back-[thing] into your game more. you could've dash-wd back-ftilt[maybe sh-aerial, maybe even wiz kick] and beaten out the attacks.
1m1s: that kk stuff. don't shield right below bowser (maybe start rolling if you don't want to throw out uair). or, purposely shield then preemptively spotdodge. getting proper di is one thing, but try to avoid the situation itself when possible.
1m6s: that bair was super unsafe, you got lucky he decided to roll away instead of shield grab it.
1m16s: fading back to uair a forward upb was a good plan, but you had to commit super hard to doing so. probably a neutral jump-uair could've covered both options (albeit, suboptimally for the forward upb, might've hit him backwards...)
1m20s: good bait on the oos after your ftilt. do more good spacing mind games like that.
1m24s: when he respawned you gave up too much stage control. you got lucky he didn't force an invinc hitbox on your face, just eating that nair to grab the ledge, then further luck with the platform coming over to give a bit more breathing room. in a situation like that, try to avoid the situation entirely, you could've just straight up died.
1m30s: y u wizkick? stop doing that outside of truly crazy conditioning strategies, the hitbox is horrible
1m39s: remember how not doing afc onstage saved your life? i don't think you do.
*REMEMBER TO TRY AND PLAY SOME SETS WITHOUT EVER USING AFC ON STAGE*
switch in perfect ledge drop uairs for your default of ledge drop afc. safer and less committal.
1m41s: not sure i agree with that afc there, but the opponent clearly didn't seem ready for it, so it worked. i guess it's the "no one expects it THE 8TH TIME AROUND!" strat... work on your follow timings, though. it looked like you were going for jab-dash attack, but bowser only has a 1frame window to hit that jab (and probably only if he doesn't do stupid sdi things to mess up the air time on it, #pmdt plz). probably better off predicting the teching option in those situations and then trying for the hard read.
1m44s: wizkick? well, it worked, ok...
1m45s: that bair should've been safe. what were you going for? if it was waveland away, it might've worked, if it was dj-bair it also might've worked since he did normal ftilt and not upangled. be better about your followups, i couldn't see an animation startup to find out what the plan was supposed to be.
1m49s: you got baited hard af. try not getting rekt so hard, scrub.
1m55s: i think the only reason the fair (reverse hit wut?)-ftilt worked is that you were invincible. keep that in mind, try not to use shenanigans like that too often.
2m: should've uair'd sooner. either go out after him and press the advantage (he dj'd, so you could've jumped out to meet his arc and floated if you wanted to wait a bit, or just hard read and dj'd up from below his arc with the uair and caught a lot of options with it. since he pulled back slightly, then did upb fully forward, you could've caught that with a dropzone-dj-uair and still covered some more stally options. get some bowser seriouslies/money match practice in).
2m2s: should get used to uair-wl's. that probably would've allowed you to get a cleaner followup. for the situation at hand, the float-reverse uair wasn't bad and definitely covered a lot of space, but it was definitely sub-optimal.
2m4s: good use of pressure with the jump-float-dj-late uair on his shield. around this point is probably a good time to stop twitch ftilting, as it's safe, but you can't follow stuff up and bowser is starting to respect it a lot more. potential other followups: b-reverse fc (for added range on the roll away), wiz kick (depending on stage control and roll length), dacus (very spacing specific), boost grab, aerial directly after the first.
2m6s: not sure why bowser empty jumped at you when he could've nair'd at least, but you got him on that and you were clearly planning that fair out so it worked. also, clutch balloon pop, good man.
2m7s: really, though, should've ignore the balloon and gotten better spacing to set up the edge guard. you don't need to stand so far back UNTIL bowser gets the ledge. otherwise, the furthest back you should be is down angled ftilt range, to clip the edge.
2m16s: bear in mind jab spam on shield only works on bowser like that because his grab is slow. upb oos might beat you on frame data and he could've definitely pulled back safely to the ledge from there. you do this a lot, so watch out for it and start doing other stuff after the first jab (maybe even jab-gfc to dodge the shieldgrab?)
2m18s: better spacing. bowser didn't have too many options so you would've had to try to mess that up, but keeping proper spacing is an important first step.
2m20s: as bowser was dying, you should've gone into center stage and then spammed tech skill, so you could at least make him have to guess about which way you'd go as he was invinc.
2m24s: good job on not ledge drop-afc. you almost got klaw'd, but otherwise the ledge drop-invinc uair-shield was a solid plan.
2m29s: well, you did that terribly...
2m33s: bair? was that supposed to be uair? a flubbed input is the only thing that really makes sense there.
2m36s: floating was a bad choice in hindsight, but you shouldn't have used your dj so quickly right before it. you could've fallen away as you were, then dj'd back later, rather than trying to use float to stall the way you did. that put you offstage with no options which led to
2m39s: the twitch upb into bowser fsmash. i know sweetspotting with ganon is tricky, but you didn't even try and you put yourself into the bad position from the start about 5 seconds ago. keep that in mind.
2m40s: the uair-upb exchange was necessary at this point, just to stay alive, but you were lucky bowser mistimed his tech jump followup, or else it would've been game here. once again, all because of the bad usage of your dj (and float) at 2m36s.
2m45s: i see you wanting to rush center stage to allow more space, then pulling back because bowser was there earlier than expected. good plan and your movement afterwards (with the platform helping a bit, too) got you out of that bad spot rather safely.
2m49s: you gave up too much stage, though. should've stopped right when you ran left of k.k.'s stage.
2m53s: i was afraid you were going to twitch wizkick again. good job on not. remember that dair is only +-0 on shield (iirc) and has no horizontal range, so you have to do your followup quick. shielding wasn't a good one ;x
2m57s: lolz kk bthrow. lrn2discrub
3m: that death was from miscalculating how high you'd jump. you should know better by now. though, not safe, the best option would've probably been to directly upb right there, so you could hope to just catch him in end lag from his ledge option and hump him away.

and that took, like, an hour. i'm tired, i'll go back and try to review my own critique later ;x
 

CheCray

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
32
Hey guys I'm pretty new to the tournament scene and I finally got some on stream footage against my scenes top players that I'm hoping to get critiqued! I'm pretty new to the scene here only got a handful of matches under my belt but I'm hoping to get better soon. Right now from what I've been told I have some bad habits I'm doing my best to stop them.
I don't know the squirtle or lucario matchup just yet, but im quickly learning what works and what stages ganon wants in those matchups.
Enjoy watching me get bodied!

Me vs Double (Lucario)
Me vs Zswarm (Squirtle)
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
Hey guys I'm pretty new to the tournament scene and I finally got some on stream footage against my scenes top players that I'm hoping to get critiqued! I'm pretty new to the scene here only got a handful of matches under my belt but I'm hoping to get better soon. Right now from what I've been told I have some bad habits I'm doing my best to stop them.
I don't know the squirtle or lucario matchup just yet, but im quickly learning what works and what stages ganon wants in those matchups.
Enjoy watching me get bodied!

Me vs Double (Lucario)
Me vs Zswarm (Squirtle)
I'll try to play by play some stuff for you in the next week.

Do you prefer info on a particular set? It takes a chunk of time to play by play, so I'll probably only do one.
 

CheCray

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
32
Take your pick man, I'm pretty hungry for feedback and I'll take what I can get
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
that squirtle match was pretty nasty ;x and squirtle's even weirder to play against than lucario, so i'll go with the lucario one, i guess.

after the first look-see, your movement is pretty on point, and you do a lot of good control techs (like, control over your own character; i.e. when you do turn around floats while recovering, wd out of afc for tech chases, etc...). you had a couple points where it looked like if you had boost grabbed or done reverseb gfc (gfc the opposite direction you intend to go, then turn it around) you could have extended a few things, so that might be general tech to work on.

1m26s: jab would've worked there. i'm assuming you were already inputting dtilt, though. it looked like lucario had a read on your roll back after the bair, with that double team, but it's early in the match so it could've been coincidental stage positioning.
1m31s: that's the kind of good stuff i was talking about earlier. you're really on point with pulling this sort of strat off, definitely a strong suit.
1m35s: i can see what you were going for, so i'll just point it out here for consistency. you could've also probably done a dropzone uair or run offstage into a double jump uair to cover the recovery.
2m12s: i'm assuming you were going for a hard read or flash? uair would've probably covered the upb, as well (i like uair for edgeguarding a lot. i'll admit, it might be a bit too much...). dtilt for non perfect sweetspot might've been a good bet, as well. mentioning this mostly because you got clipped by the end of the upb and that led to a combo and loss of stage control.
2m15s: you upb'd earlier than you should have. did you have a rationale behind it or was it just a missed sweetspot? (like, were you thinking "he's gonna come off after me, up b early to catch him!" or was it just mistiming/spacing?)
2m20s: dsmash is safe on shield? that's pretty cool...
2m24s: i feel like you roll from ledge to centerstage a lot more than you should, especially when you have control of the full stage... it looked like lucario took advantage of that here and chased you down when you retreated.
2m28s: rolling back again. you could've sh-uair'd and clipped him from the platform, probably.
2m30s: i liked the float there, i probably would've done something similar. probably keep in mind to float slightly higher than that, closer to full first jump range and you can avoid that utilt scenario.
2m32s: the recovery from getting clipped was pretty crazy, though. he definitely wasn't expecting rando warlock kick there, so good on that and the followup for the stock.
2m36s: this whole section of avoiding his invincibility is pretty well done. didn't give up too much stage space and stayed loose away from him.
2m41s: good float. didn't lead to anything, but it was safe and lucario decided to commit. you can't win them all, and as long as you didn't lose the engagement, it's still good.
2m43s: i wonder if you had done a later/lower uair if it would've clipped? it looked like you had a lead on him trying for that crossup, which was good. (if it was just option coverage with the active hitbox of uair, that's still cool). looks like you actually lost the engagement here, which is why i was thinking a later/lower uair might've hit him, or at least forced the block. you could've also disengaged and dj'd back away from him with fadeaway fair or waiting to do a late uair/nair for coverage.
2m45s: you jumped out and ate the nair. i don't know your mindset, but was it a twitch/panic jump? or were you thinking he was going for something else you could've jumped out from?
2m46s: looks like you jump-dj'd instantly? hard to tell, could be wrong. if so, why? (not being a ****, asking for your rationale and so you can examine the thought process). also, super hard disagree with the dair, there. lucario was in full control of the stage and was entirely noncommittal, waiting on you to do something. jump down-float-react jump down-fair/uair/nair(maybe) sit on the platform a little bit, platform drop-uair, jump around and platform camp just slightly to see how he reacts, anything like that would've probably been a better option there, since they're less committal and safer once done (in terms of coverage and end lag), typically.
2m49s: good catch on the fair to stop his fsmash. techincally lucario overcommitted, but that's not your problem >: D
2m50s: i do this a lot, myself, but that was a bad dash attack. the only way it would've connected is if lucario hadn't moved or started rushing you down for no reason. he's a quick character with a solid dd, so assume he'll just be content with staying less committal and waiting for you to do a thing to punish it. he hadn't given up enough stage (from where you were positioned before starting the dash attack) to make it a huge threat. better options might've been jump-float, wd back to tilt (if you assumed he wanted to run in on you), wd back to fox trot/dd, jump back fadeaway fair, rar bair and ready a waveland depending on how he was positioned as you started.
2m54s: GOT EEHM!
3m: should've have gfc'd, but i think i would've thought it was safe at that point, as well. it miiiiight have caught him if you had done the reverseb version...
3m13s: you're lucky lucario mistimed the dtilt (or didn't decide to just fsmash and probably catch your hand, anyway : /).
3m15s: why'd you bair? the only way that could've hit lucario is if he had made a really really bad decision to roll behind you when he had the entire stage under his control. should've probably just saved the dj or tried to dj over to the top platform to force him to do something.
3m16s: you rolled. he waited for you to roll and you rolled. watch yourself, man.
3m22s: looks like you just mistimed everything. you might've been able to safely dj-awk again had you done so immediately after the first, but i don't disagree at all with playing it safe the way you did.
3m30s: this looks mostly safe, but less than optimal. you were invuln so you could've probably pushed a bit more with aerials, but i think lucario just had a solid read on the things you wanted to do and played it super solidly here. i'm honestly not sure what better options would be, because he had the full stage and was only intent on avoiding you, so you couldn't even really bait him out into doing something...
3m35s: i think you played well in this whole scenario (from 3m30s to here).
3m36s: that poorly spaced dash attack again : ( you could've probably kept pressing the advantage and kept running forward.
3m39s: i haven't mentioned it yet, but you seem to have some pretty solid sdi, man.
3m40s: this looks intentional and i don't disagree with using that to push him back. there might've been a technically better option, but this totally worked and gained you some stage positioning.
3m41s: which you forfeited. but, you still seemed to have a plan behind it with that bair, so cool, man, cool.
3m47s: i liked that float-bair a lot. man after my own heart.
3m48s: that roll is something i would've done and immediately regretted, as well. i'm not sure what the actual best option would've been. probably to not have shielded in the first place? maybe throw upb oos at him out of nowhere?
3m56s: uair or bair would've probably been a better shot, but i probably would've gone for the dair there, too.... the other two options would've given good coverage, as well, though, and had less end lag, letting you possibly land on stage or regrab the ledge easier. it would've also sent lucario further away, to avoid the followup situation.
4m2s: honestly, i would've kneejerk bair'd him >< probably put myself into a bad situation, since it looked like lucario was expecting an aerial...
4m10s: damn, impressive survivability, son! also agree with the uair to clear space there.
4m16s: why'd you dair? were you going for a hard read on him overshooting the ledge and going on stage? i'm not sure it would've done a launch rather than just putting him on the ground, at that point... and even if it had hit and done a meteor launch, lucario looks to be high enough damage to not be followed up on. probably should've uair'd or fair'd for the read on that one, tbh. maybe even charged fsmash a little bit to hit that area(probably wouldn't have killed, either, but it might be more damage...)?
4m18s: that's a quick reaction to his double team in : o the roll right after might not have been ideal, but you honestly didn't have many options there. you can probably stand to mix in spot dodge and rolling away from center stage more often. you like going center A LOT.
4m36s: good uair, bair might've also hit and put him offstage. the followup dash attack was well done, as well, since he had no options out of it and, even if he weren't tech rolling, he wouldn't have been able to dd away to bait you due to lack of stage behind him. that's when you should use dash attack more, when they can't dd back to bait or if they've committed to something then you go for the punish with it.
4m41s: that was beautiful. i would've tried uair and probably been too high for it, so that second fair and going that deep for the edgeguard was great!
4m46s: this is why i don't like ecawk. it's super committal and if you mess up, you're in A LOT of landing lag. otherwise, you were doing a really good job avoid him during respawn.
4m50s: good high risk option and turning it into a solid reward with the jab-dashattack-tech read. that's annoying that the gfc missed : / looked like you had the read, just timed it slightly wrong and lost all your momentum and some stage control off of it : /
4m53s: intentional fsmash or were you going for ftilt? i'm assuming the latter, but if not, do you remember your rationale?
4m56s: bad dair. should stop going for it when you're coming down, it has very little hitbox coverage and commits you to it for a good chunk of time.
5m01s: good di, man : o
5m07s: he wanted you to shield, you were lucky he was too far away to catch you. be wary of stuff like that. the followup bair was solid, you probably could've not fast falled and went for a wl away or just turn around ftilt.
5m10s: if you'd ftilted after the first wd (or dtilted, even...) you probably could've caught him after your gfc.
5m13s: instead of dash attack, maybe ftilt here? you're on the back foot and are having to play around his tools, so you can't be as forceful as you typically want to. poking him with ftilt is essentially a frame trap for us, so you can try to catch him with a second ftilt, sh-uair, reverseb gfc or wizkick(to catch the roll), or dash attack. but you'd want to take those options after you've taken some control back. and if he ate the ftilt because he was mashing buttons, you would have a lot of control at that point.

and this took, like, an hour and a half, so i'm gonna go finish getting ready for work.
 

CheCray

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
32
AY man the feedback is appreciated, your bringing a LOT of my bad habits to light here. I tend to roll a LOT and I often end up regretting it but its something I'm working on. I've been playing this game for a long time now but I've only played against a handful of people, probably around 5 ppl. I got a chance to really polish my tech skill and movement but playing against the same characters/people let me develop bad habits. Marth and Roy are the characters I do best against, but now that I'm playing in tournament I'm hoping to grind out these habits
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
yeah. and bear in mind, i watched the vids once, went back and did play by play on just that one, and that was it, so i actually didn't get to correlate a lot of stuff into habits that you were looking for or were being set up for. so take a lot of that stuff and think back about why you did the "bad thing". if there was a good reason for it, it wasn't necessarily wrong, but your reasoning was wrong (i.e. you gfc and assume the opponent will standing tech and go for the punish on that. they don't so you get forced to reset to neutral. why did you think they would neutral tech? did they do it a lot previously? were they conditioning you because your punish on a neutral tech was lacking so they could just eat it and go for the dividend later? etc... etc... that's a small example, but that's what needs to be thought through).

and a lot of the stuff i pointed out on you is stuff i need to work on, too. i rarely get videos to analyze and get to play maybe once a month, so i "know" what to do, but i suck at doing it. it's something you get better at when you go back and watch your own stuff. i'd recommend trying to do your own play by plays, even if it's just a word file on your own computer, so you can pick yourself apart better and find what you're messing up.
 

Bazkip

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
3,136
Location
Canada
How to make a comeback game one, be up in game two and then still lose the set: A guide by Baz

:facepalm:
 

Nevermind

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
51
Location
Charlotte, NC
Nevermind (Ganon) vs. Stingers (Peach)

I'm pretty inexperienced in the Peach matchup, so any advice would be very much appreciated. I know I miss-spaced a fair few attacks and overextended on my juggles, but outside of that what could you guys tell me? I'm especially stumped as to how to deal with Peach when she's carrying a turnip outside of baiting a misplaced toss with my movement.
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
I'll try to give it a look over and play by play Thursday, but no guarantee; I've got a chunk of calc hw that might need doing and plans for the weekend that might interfere with it ;x
 

CheCray

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
32
Not going to do a full play by play but I'll give my 2 cents.

- I really like your movement, you waveland a lot and you keep your Ganon speedy and mobile.
- You also use up air really well. I'm seeing good things like Waveland off platform to up air to cover the space beneath the platform.
- We ain't gunna mention that tipman gimp cuz this is a family friendly forum and it was obscene.
- I also see you wavelanding after back air into another jab/grab which is bueno.
- It's seems the issue your having here is spacing. Your movement is so good that against most people who haven't played against a good Ganon you'll be able to overwhelm them by being able to get in their face with meaty hitboxes. But as you approach higher level players this won't cut it. Your movement and control of ganon is great! With your speed you should be able to keep up with any character on a good stage. But your spacing is a little off and that's why Peach punishes you so hard in these games. I see awesome stuff like autocancel F-air to F-tilt/jab but your still getting punished because the first F-air isn't spaced to be safe on shield.
- Another thing is as Peach starts to get a feel for your movement you keep charging in. Even though Peach isn't the fastest character an approaching Ganon isn't that hard to counter. Peach beats you out of her shield several times, but with your movement you actually do a good job beating Peach in neutral. This is the same thing every Ganon hears about how you shouldn't approach, but that's not to say that a speedy PM Ganon can't fish for pokes at a safe range while we wait for the opponent to approach. That's where we post up a wall and get as much damage as we can until the opponent commits and then we kill them off 2 hits and an edgegaurd.

Overall your Ganon is strong and your movement is great you could just use a good wall and maybe work on less SD's while recovering.
 

Nevermind

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
51
Location
Charlotte, NC
Thank you so much for the response. Regarding my approaches, I tend to attack with a certain rhythm rather than acting according to the opponent. If you watch some of my older videos you'll see I've gotten a lot better about that, but I still don't let the person I'm playing against make their own mistakes often enough. My ideal playstyle is very reactive, so setting up a wall of attacks in neutral doesn't completely mesh with my personal philosophy. However, I think using safe attacks is super important in establishing a threat and conditioning a desired response (d-tilting at the edge of your opponent's DD range to bait out subsequent aerial approaches, for instance), and I don't do that half as much as I should. I feel like I don't use the threat of WLs out of empty hops and off of platforms (burst movement with Ganon :o) to force a retreat and capture stage enough, either. Once I've forced my way into Peaches zone without letting her pull a turnip, I should be CCing more. Either I catch a dash attack as she tries to call the startup on my approach / catch the edge of my DD, or I scare her out of dash attacking and make my slow aerials much safer due to not having to worry about being hit before I can get a hitbox out. CC in general is under-explored as a neutral tool, in my opinion.

*thoughts*
 
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