Showcase of Power v3.6: The Ganondorf Video Thread

[Bazkip]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention before but MorKs, one of our better players, went Ganon for a set.

Those upsmashes tho

 

[bubbaking]

2:41 Okay no I completely disagree with this. We don't CG Ness and wtf are talking about that jab put him in the corner that's the exact opposite of losing advantage. He panic dash attacked to get out of there and I punished him for that (not an exceptional punish cause I though I could've landed an upsmash after dthrow but I guess he was too low percent, but that was poor decision on the punish not the events leading up to it. Still fsmashed him right after so wasn't even that bad).

I haven't played against Ness too much, but I could've sworn that his mid-weight mid-falling speed let him get CG'd a couple times at low %s. If not, my bad. Regardless, you get a good punish off of throws.

Perhaps "losing your advantage" was not the right choice of words here. Yes, you maintained a positional advantage since you had him pinned, but that jab didn't directly lead into anything more than that. However, jab was the only thing you could throw out after that 2nd nair was blocked at point-blank range. If that Ness had properly respected your options and jab had been blocked, you could have been shieldgrabbed or counter-pressured. Instead of the 2nd nair in the first place, you could have grabbed instead. Again, I'm not pointing out a 'mistake' so much as simply giving a comment on gameplay/decision-making. The nair wasn't necessarily a bad choice, but recognizing that an opponent is conditioned to shield under pressure lets one go for the optimal grab punish. This is crucial when it's otherwise so hard for Ganon to get grabs.

It is very true that the Ness still gave you a free punish afterwards with the panic DA, and he let himself get hit with a raw smash, but that was the Ness being bad. You can't always count on your opponent making big mistakes like that.

Also, I hope no offense is being taken. I simply wanted to share my observations. I thought your Ganon was pretty fun to watch.

 

[Bazkip]

I haven't played against Ness too much, but I could've sworn that his mid-weight mid-falling speed let him get CG'd a couple times at low %s. If not, my bad. Regardless, you get a good punish off of throws.

Perhaps "losing your advantage" was not the right choice of words here. Yes, you maintained a positional advantage since you had him pinned, but that jab didn't directly lead into anything more than that. However, jab was the only thing you could throw out after that 2nd nair was blocked at point-blank range. If that Ness had properly respected your options and jab had been blocked, you could have been shieldgrabbed or counter-pressured. Instead of the 2nd nair in the first place, you could have grabbed instead. Again, I'm not pointing out a 'mistake' so much as simply giving a comment on gameplay/decision-making. The nair wasn't necessarily a bad choice, but recognizing that an opponent is conditioned to shield under pressure lets one go for the optimal grab punish. This is crucial when it's otherwise so hard for Ganon to get grabs.

It is very true that the Ness still gave you a free punish afterwards with the panic DA, and he let himself get hit with a raw smash, but that was the Ness being bad. You can't always count on your opponent making big mistakes like that.

Also, I hope no offense is being taken. I simply wanted to share my observations. I thought your Ganon was pretty fun to watch.

Okay yeah fair enough, people eventually start shielding my aerial approaches and I notice but just keep on doing the same thing cause apparently I'm dumb lol.
Still think you're underrating positional advantage a tad but you are correct in that grabbing is better.

Ness is floaty though, we definitely don't chaingrab him.

 

[Lafungo]

Looks like you guys have a lot of singles vids, so how about some doubles for a change?

Some background before linking stuff: I study up in Montreal during the school year and attend weeklies there, but for the summer I'm down in Boston. In May I wasn't able to go to Smashing Grounds for various reasons, so I ended up going to Level Up Smash a couple times, which is a weekly in New Hampshire. Because they have smaller numbers (~30ish on average), they also run doubles. The first time I went there I was paired up with a Fox (whose tag is Ses) and we ended up doing much better than I expected.

LUS 2.0:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh93c7cBESc - vs. Blank/Javlyn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTzkFGhqcv8 - vs. Sora/Blanky 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpxgBttjdvs - vs. Sora/Blanky 2
In case you're familiar with SG names at all, we also beat Poob/Freeze and Billz/Sol at that tournament.

A couple weeks later, I went back to LUS and teamed up with Ses again.

LUS 2.2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pynYrcmEwkk - vs. Poob/Sol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1gJ3MuEC1w - vs. Tartox/Hackey
We also beat Kwills/Billz and got very close to beating Harmak/Numerics.

An interesting thing to note is that just about every name I've mentioned from these matches is a much better singles player than I (and Ses as well for several of them). For comparison, I did terribly in singles at both these tournaments, going 1-2 twice.
Ses' style of reactionary/support Fox seems to work wonders with Ganon. I think a lot of our team's success has to do with Fox filling in the holes in my/Ganon's gameplay. Fox can cover a lot of Ganon's weaknesses, such as escaping pressure and recovering. On a more personal level, having a fast, reactive partner masks my own shortcomings with respect to extended punishes and unsafe options.

Extrapolating from this, it seems to me that what Ganon looks for in a teammate is a character that can peel pressure off him and cover his "blind spots". Obviously Fox can do this well, but I can also see characters like Sheik or Diddy fitting the bill. Teaming with another slow character probably isn't a good idea, because then it becomes far too easy to get shut down by two fast characters (such as what happened to me vs. Tartox/Hackey's double Fox).

As a bonus, since I notice Baz linked the ditto we played on stream that he won, I'll return the favor and present the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aumjl0ZN0aY]origin of Kosher Salt[/URL].

 

[Bazkip]

Dangit Lafungo

 

[Servine1212]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Be3C_lnBMew

Hey guys heres a set from my most recent tourney... Please help me out so I can get better.

 

[Ghnaschnakoff]

Hallo everyone. Long time lurker.

http://www.twitch.tv/curtinsmash/b/668011582 -- @1:44:55 Grand Finals Vs Quetzacoatl (Zelda)
I also faced the same dude in WFs but got too trasht and put up a much better fight in GFs.From what I've seen of the Zelda MU, deactivating the Dins is pretty good but Quetz was very good at placing them in hard to reach positions such as right above my head or right behind me.
I'm not sure if there is anything I'm missing MU wise or if its just me getting generally out played.

Any advice/tip/critique would be great. Thanks :3

And another 2 sets from another recent tourney
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5EDJBBf534&index=5&list=PL_-taoQys4lQLq-f2QpJ3Y1fZScBkIIvk
-- Vs Fox, Roy
I don't convert on things (ie dthrow) enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVWQ5DJFuRE&list=PL_-taoQys4lQLq-f2QpJ3Y1fZScBkIIvk&index=2
-- Vs Wario
How to beat Wario? ;(

 

[CORY]

You guys, two on the same day... I'll try to do a critique for you two tmrw before work : p

 

[CORY]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Be3C_lnBMew

Hey guys heres a set from my most recent tourney... Please help me out so I can get better.

ok, the first time you got ivy off the ledge, you had more than enough time to prep for grabbing the edge to force ivy's hand and you just... tech skilled. always aim to grab the ledge against a tether character. you might have to juke out some of their tricks to do so safely, but never just let them grab the ledge if it's at all possible. the second time you went for it and just misspaced, so you knew the plan the first time, so "bruuuuuuuuh?".

that setup at 1m27s was ****ing beautiful. holy ****, i loved it! the followup was suboptimal, though. even if you'd gotten the correct read, you would've just gotten the damage and i don't think ivy would've been put offstage enough for you to start an edge guard situation. ivy falls slow enough that you can literally guarantee a dtilt out of aerial flame choke (or a grab, if the di away isn't too strong), so keep that in mind for low-mid percent setups. you could've done dtilt into uair/nair or grab-dthrow into aerials. you could've also hard read for another flame choke, but if you have guaranteed followups that lead to something, i would recommend those.

your death at 1m59s was almost entirely because you gave up too much stage control on ivy's respawn. you obviously can't straight up contest an invincible ivy, but maybe drop to the ledge and see if you can coax ivy into ledge drop uair zoning to reclear? or go for a feint and run back under ivy (or wl on the platform above) as she goes for you on the ledge? basically, you boxed in your own options against a character that can shut you down almost entirely with bair, leaving you no space to negotiate that exchange. just be mindful of stage control.

you like using aerial wizkick to get to the ground too much. the hitbox on it sucks, starting only at his knee, so use it sparingly as a surprise option or to style on someone when you have control of the game.

and that bit at 2m35s was once again, beautiful! loved that! and you got the read for wizkick. it was still a suboptimal option at that point, because ivy wasn't pushed far enough offstage to do much to her, but that whole setup starting from that jump back all the way to the read was great!

2m50s you didn't float. dj-wizkick-float-dj-side/upb. you hadn't demonstrated to ivy that you like to float at all, and even though that would've been a rather dangerous place to float, ivy would've had to preemptively ledge drop-bair to catch you, since you could've floated just a bit to move inwards sligthly, jumped out asap, and throw uair (to try to clear the ledge) and then go for the upb.

3m3s you gave up the ledge for free again. bruh.jpg . 3m15s you took the ledge, but got up too soon. i'm not trying to be rude, but do you understand how the tethers work in 3.5? if not: just hold the ledge, the tether can't hurt you if it's trying to grab the ledge. at that point, all the tether-er can do is reel in at some point, so you can wait and react to that. they go into a forced ledge jump, which is about 30 frames long, and then have a forced landing lag, about 50 frames. it's ridic. you can tourney winner, land, turn around, and grab. your goal should be to discern whether they want to go onstage or fade back and regrab the ledge. if they're going on stage, you can ledge drop-jump bair and cover both fadeback and just slightly going on stage. ledge drop-jump uair will cover further forward and kinda covers the fadeback, but they might be able to grab the ledge due to timing. if they go full on forward drift and you call it, you can ledge drop-jump fair or afc and go for followups. you can probably also perfect wl-turn around grab.

aaand at 3m59s i see you go for that setup, so i guess you just had tourney nerves? it happens. i still ****up ledge drop-aerials and i've been playing since n64 era ><

at 4m20s you might've been able to make it back had you twitch sideb'd rather than falling slightly for an upb. ivy might've still clipped you with the bair, though, i can't tell that for sure... that was just a rough situation, though. i might've gone for the wizkick myself, tbh ;x but you could've circumvented it by going for the regrab into dthrow into stuff, or dtilt into nair (because ivy probably would've survival di'd, putting her back into both hits for a slick 24%) then uair offstage or something.

not sure i necessarily agree with the runback, but i don't know the stage list you had on and if the ivy could've banned all of the useful stages for you (i'd assume you would lose wario ware and ghz, but there're a few funky stages that i like for ganon, like skyworld, yoshi's brawl, and dp [a little bit]). you're good on watching spacing at the start of the second game, though.

the recovery escapades going on around 4m50s could've used some float in there. just remember dj-wizkick-float-dj-recovery. esepcially the second attempt at it around 5m. the float would've been pretty safe from that distance and gotten you closer, so ivy would've at least had to try a little more to edgehog, and you might've been able to land onstage entirely, to force ivy to try it all again, at the very least.

you're a bit too reliant on fair. right around 5m8s, when you dj'd back, you could've clipped ivy with uair, maybe even without the dj. in general, use a bit more uair and nair. nair's slightly less useful in this matchup, because ivy's a bit shorter, but it's still a great aerial to throw out in neutral or when you're trying to stall the opponent's momentum.

5m15s, you chose the technically correct option, due to di, but i think you might've been able to run under and bair ivy offstage. take this with a grain of salt, i'm just going off of feels here...

overall, you tend to go for wizkicks a lot when you feel like you're losing control, which is a heavy commitment and very high risk. watch out for that, the ivy was just starting to bait you out in proper distances at the end of the match. you don't overdo wizkick or sideb in general, though, which is good. you also don't overuse dair, which is great.

use more nair and uair in general. uair has amazing coverage for its startup and commitment, nair is positive on shield and deals 12% each kick (or 7 if you hit the last frame of the move). your fair spacing is solid, but you tend to autoroll out of it, so be a bit less predictable. like, fair on shield and jab a few times, then fair on shield into grounded flame choke and let the pullback dodge grabs and ****.

and float more. i've said this before, but i'm going to tell every ganon to float more until it gets to the point i have to tell them to stop floating. especially if you've gotten momentum. get them used to one timing, then change it just slightly by floating and asap doing the aerial. you'd be really surprised by how many people you can get to twitch into a shield grab early just by simple timing tricks. and you can use it to be less commital by jumping in and floating at the apex of your jump (or short hop, but be more careful about this). as long as you have the dj, you can always easily pull back relatively safely. and once you get them used to you jumping in and floating, i.e. they try to throw an aerial to eat your float, you can then just go for jump in aerials and win on range and timing.

general ivy things: if you get a good read on where the ivy likes to throw razor leaves, you can preemptively go through it with wizkick, nair, uair, and rar bair (fair could work as well, but the timing is stricter since he swings overhead first and it has heft startup). i like dtilt range for most character, but ivy obviously isn't good for this since your dtilt range is still within her shieldgrab range, along with her own dtilt and jab. try to sit just a bit out of your own dtilt and coax something out of ivy. if she overcommits with bair, you can punish various ways (grab, oos uair/nair, upb oos). if she doesn't commit and pulls back, you can wd forward or even just jump oos with nair and pressure that area she gave up. i thiiiiiiiiiiink you can chaingrab ivy a bit, so keep that in mind if you get a low percent grab. and learn the distances and angles that ivy's upb grabs the ledge from. if you can feint out and make her want to upb just a tiny bit too close, you can literally just jump out and bair or tipman for a stock. you can even do this from the ledge, oftentimes, with drop back-dj-bair and then recover.

and, of course, i'm very much not the end all be all arbrititer, and tbh, if you do something, it hits the opponent, and you don't get punished for it, it's still working. i'm just using hindsight (as well as my own twitch impulses from watching the games) to talk about some optimizations you could do.

@ Ghnaschnakoff i'll try to look at your set this weekend. i need to go workout and take a mental break right now ;x

 

[MerzA]

Videos from the Ganondorf Round Robin at Smash N' Splash have all been uploaded!

Junebug, KOKingpin, Dart!, MerzA, SOJ, Lordy and Spicy

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmW-ZIxEPEmJR7wcT4edcAqY8Ekb2pTIG

 

[Bazkip]

Some more matches

https://youtu.be/vKm26u83lVI vs MV2 (Falcon, Fox)
lol this set was dumb

https://youtu.be/GyO2ChLAeQg vs Carlil (Roy)
https://youtu.be/fO0JqAEN-SA vs OOO (Ness)
uugggghhh I shouldn't have lost these I choked ;_;

I need to stop fsmashing by accident so much it's so bad.

 

[aznasazin11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mQVsnm__6g

Could use some critiques and match up help regarding Lucario. I kinda got bodied in this set. I feel like I was super rusty. I missed a ton of L cancels and wave lands.

EDIT: Also I down B and over B wayyyyy too much.

 

[Bazkip]

Also I down B [...] wayyyyy too much.

No such thing

But yeah jokes aside you definitely need to stop doing those randomly in neutral.

At 2:14 you rolled back, which was a good decision as it got you out of a pressure situation and left you in the centre stage, which is a good position to be in. You then promptly rolled back a second time and gave up stage control to your opponent. There was a sizable distance between you and your opponent, you weren't in his threat zone. That second roll was unnecessary.

At 2:36 you made a hasty decision due to the aura bomb and got punished hard for it. You can simply wait it out at the ledge, refreshing invincibility as needed. You also could've made it back after the fsmash if you used float.

I then got distracted and forgot about this for several hours and now it's 4AM so that's all you're getting from me lol.

 

[Kr0sS]

No such thing

But yeah jokes aside you definitely need to stop doing those randomly in neutral.

At 2:14 you rolled back, which was a good decision as it got you out of a pressure situation and left you in the centre stage, which is a good position to be in. You then promptly rolled back a second time and gave up stage control to your opponent. There was a sizable distance between you and your opponent, you weren't in his threat zone. That second roll was unnecessary.

At 2:36 you made a hasty decision due to the aura bomb and got punished hard for it. You can simply wait it out at the ledge, refreshing invincibility as needed. You also could've made it back after the fsmash if you used float.

I then got distracted and forgot about this for several hours and now it's 4AM so that's all you're getting from me lol.

That may be the most beautifulest gif I've ever seen.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

It was long overdue, but the OP is updated.

Version 3.6 videos will start from this point on, and will be kept in a separate section in the OP.

I'll try and keep up on this better and improve the formatting a bit and whatnot.

 

[Bazkip]

ALRIGHT WE 3.6 NOW YA'LL READY FOR THE BEST GANONING OF ALL TIME
CAUSE WE HAD A TOURNEY THE OTHER DAY WITH BIDOOOOF AND KAGE AND THEY MET IN BRACKET AND GUESS WHAT?

Anywho here's more sets. Sets marked with * are losses.

Kage:
vs Boreal_Holy (Meta Knight)* - https://youtu.be/SDGFxxmJMl0
vs SSBMTL Kyle (Peach) - https://youtu.be/vPDuW0Yv8hA
vs steakhouse (Toon Link) - https://youtu.be/f-PiBtls85o
vs Boreal_MorKs (Ganon) - https://youtu.be/wVkhT0mfXeo
vs Halla (Mewtwo) - https://youtu.be/sfLiJvjEhF4
vs Buzzard (Wolf, Fox) - https://youtu.be/PzepmtdSLbk
vs Bobo (Ivysaur)* - https://youtu.be/aRvIMhymxNs

Bidooof:
vs SSBMTL Kyle (Peach)* [Ganon game 4 & 5] - https://youtu.be/AQ-KopjzGyw

 

[CORY]

that set was stupid hype : O

 

[Bazkip]

I still can't edgeguard Roy
vs Carlil (Roy) - https://youtu.be/f3N92FA5dns

 

[Bazkip]

Yo guys stop being dead
Anywho here's two more vids of me

vs Doc (Sheik, Ganon) - https://youtu.be/DMlEcwkUfXo
lol

vs What! (C.Falcon) - https://youtu.be/P_pO1kCtuU0
The panic Wiz Foots still lives

 

[Lafungo]

Got to play a couple sets on stream at SG last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClzXgTvdsik - vs. Kwills (Luigi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQxVIjOWSX0 - vs. Grouper (Fox)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

EDIT: Wrong thread.

 

[Lafungo]

vs Doc (Sheik, Ganon) - https://youtu.be/DMlEcwkUfXo

How did you end up on Delfino Secret game 1 against Sheik? Doesn't seem like a great stage to go to.
0:30 - You go for a dair to punish Sheik landing on stage, why not just dthrow -> bair? Dair is too slow to punish unless you start it preemptively.
1:00 - Went for the dthrow -> bair to punish the exact situation from earlier, nice. But immediately afterwards you give Sheik the ledge and punish her getup option with a dair. Wouldn't bair be a better option in that situation? Sheik was already at a high percent, and dair doesn't send her back off-stage. Bair is also a safer move in general.
1:15 - Went for dair to punish Sheik getup option again and ate an fsmash as a result. Same comment about bair above.
2:10 - Sick utilt punish on the transform, I'll have to remember that one.
You dropped three CGs on Sheik, two of which were because you did a dash grab. If you're not confident in the regrabs, might as well go for something else to get some extra damage and better stage positioning than just dropping the CG.
Not gonna bother saying anything about game 2.

vs What! (C.Falcon) - https://youtu.be/P_pO1kCtuU0

0:30 - Nice edgeguard. I like going for bair to catch side-B in that scenario, but Tipman works too.
0:40 - I'm fairly sure uthrow is better than dthrow against Falcon. I don't think you can CG him with dthrow, and in that particular scenario I think you could have gotten a much better punish by throwing him onto the platform.
1:00 - About as bad an edgeguard as the first one was good. I think you're much better off by staying on stage to edgeguard Falcon. Bair or Tipman can cover side-B and up-B high, and WD back -> grab ledge covers up-B low.
1:15 - Went for dair to punish Falcon landing from up-B on stage. Even though you managed to get him off stage with a reverse uair follow-up, I think going for a fair from the start would have put Falcon in a worse position and would have made the subsequent edgeguard much easier.
Don't really have much to say on game 2, you just fell apart. I know you know this, but I think the biggest thing holding you back as a player is your mental game. You go on tilt pretty easily (first stock game 2 SD here) and spiral downwards from there consistently. I don't think I've ever seen you win a set after going even slightly on tilt.

 

[Bazkip]

How did you end up on Delfino Secret game 1 against Sheik? Doesn't seem like a great stage to go to.
0:30 - You go for a dair to punish Sheik landing on stage, why not just dthrow -> bair? Dair is too slow to punish unless you start it preemptively.
1:00 - Went for the dthrow -> bair to punish the exact situation from earlier, nice. But immediately afterwards you give Sheik the ledge and punish her getup option with a dair. Wouldn't bair be a better option in that situation? Sheik was already at a high percent, and dair doesn't send her back off-stage. Bair is also a safer move in general.
1:15 - Went for dair to punish Sheik getup option again and ate an fsmash as a result. Same comment about bair above.
2:10 - Sick utilt punish on the transform, I'll have to remember that one.
You dropped three CGs on Sheik, two of which were because you did a dash grab. If you're not confident in the regrabs, might as well go for something else to get some extra damage and better stage positioning than just dropping the CG.
Not gonna bother saying anything about game 2.
--
0:30 - Nice edgeguard. I like going for bair to catch side-B in that scenario, but Tipman works too.
0:40 - I'm fairly sure uthrow is better than dthrow against Falcon. I don't think you can CG him with dthrow, and in that particular scenario I think you could have gotten a much better punish by throwing him onto the platform.
1:00 - About as bad an edgeguard as the first one was good. I think you're much better off by staying on stage to edgeguard Falcon. Bair or Tipman can cover side-B and up-B high, and WD back -> grab ledge covers up-B low.
1:15 - Went for dair to punish Falcon landing from up-B on stage. Even though you managed to get him off stage with a reverse uair follow-up, I think going for a fair from the start would have put Falcon in a worse position and would have made the subsequent edgeguard much easier.
Don't really have much to say on game 2, you just fell apart. I know you know this, but I think the biggest thing holding you back as a player is your mental game. You go on tilt pretty easily (first stock game 2 SD here) and spiral downwards from there consistently. I don't think I've ever seen you win a set after going even slightly on tilt.

I left Delfino's Secret and banned Battlefield hoping he'd think "Screw this janky new stage" and thus take me to a smaller stage but my mindgame backfired lol. Not like it mattered much.

I go for the dair punish cause I see Kage doing it all the time against Sheiks, but I suppose I should limit emulation to a point and go for things that are more consistent.

I don't think that utilt actually should've worked, Zelda/Sheik can act almost immediately out of transform it's quite possible that he could've shielded, which would've then been a free punish for him. The pop up hit will also send Zelda too far for the strong hit to connect past low percentages. imo the best thing for this situation would be an aerial Flame Choke, since it's a long lasting grab it should get them no matter what they try to do. It's kind of a moot point though since a Sheik/Zelda players probably won't be transforming right in your face, but also you can't consistently time anything due to the fact that it's duration varies with the loading method.
--
**** Falcon

 

[Ghnaschnakoff]

Hallo,
I came third at a local tourney. **** yeah go me.
We have Melee tournies on Mondays and PM/sm4sh on Thursday, but at Australian time GMT +8. Give us a follow regardless, we got some great players here in Perth.
http://www.twitch.tv/curtinsmash/v/7140469

@ 53:30 vs Zelda/Wolf Winner Round 3
@ 1:08:38 vs Zelda Winners Semis
@ 2:03:13 3 sets in a row
vs Link Losers
vs Zelda/Wolf Losers Semis
vs ROB/Zelda Losers Finals

 

[Bazkip]

Hallo,
I came third at a local tourney. **** yeah go me.
We have Melee tournies on Mondays and PM/sm4sh on Thursday, but at Australian time GMT +8. Give us a follow regardless, we got some great players here in Perth.
http://www.twitch.tv/curtinsmash/v/7140469

@ 53:30 vs Zelda/Wolf Winner Round 3
@ 1:08:38 vs Zelda Winners Semis
@ 2:03:13 3 sets in a row
vs Link Losers
vs Zelda/Wolf Losers Semis
vs ROB/Zelda Losers Finals

It's probably better for you to wait until the matches are uploaded onto Youtube until you post, since Twitch vods only last 2 weeks and also watching Twitch vods sucks.

 

[Ghnaschnakoff]

It's probably better for you to wait until the matches are uploaded onto Youtube until you post, since Twitch vods only last 2 weeks and also watching Twitch vods sucks.

Yeah I know. Sometimes the VODs don't get uploaded from these tournies unfortunately. I'll change the link if they do get uploaded.
And I know watching twitch VODs kinda sucks, but I pull off some sick **** in some of my matches, so hopefully the entertainment will be worth it

 

[bubbaking]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQxVIjOWSX0 - vs. Grouper (Fox)

0:06 - I don't recommend lunging for a move like this when Fox is at 0. He can easily CC it into anything he chooses. The DA back, too.

0:11 - Desperation downB; I don't like it. You see Fox is running around faster than you and he's tagging these hits on you when you try to bair and ftilt him, both of which whiff. So, in desperation, you try to tag him with downB...at max range. Most decent players are looking out for this and will punish it on reaction. This Fox definitely could have...

Actually, y'know, I'm probably gonna stop right now with the play-by-play. Looking throughout this set, I see that you do a lot of max-range Wiz Kicks, DAs, and Flame Chokes in attempts to catch Fox while he's running around or surprise him with a CC kick/choke. More often than not, these attempts are reacted to and punished, or they are flat-out baited. I would say that is a large reason behind you losing the set. Those moves aren't bad - flame choke is actually very good - but the way you are using them is very bad. I would say to cut these out of your gameplay, 'cause the rest of your gameplay actually didn't look that bad. You need to figure out ways to pin Fox or bait him into coming in unsafely, and when you do have him pinned, punish his methods of escape. Catching Fox IS difficult, but hail-mary Wiz Kicks is not the way to do it.

 

[Bazkip]

Got two sets from our last weekly

vs Eric Lapointe (Falco, Olimar) - https://youtu.be/xsIkKYXZ_qM
Meh Falco, easy win game 1. Game 2 I kinda just derped, SDs make me play 10x worse and playing against small characters is frustrating as ****. Fsmash edeguard 2scary.

vs Bobo (Ivysaur) - https://youtu.be/iEexCBo79lU
Let's just pretend game 1 didn't happen >_>
Still can't edgeguard tethers for ****. I can't stand the wait out, get way to antsy. Kept on jumping into stupid stuff. No idea how I won game 2 lmao. Game 3 I died twice after ****ing grabbing him with upB while recovering, 10/10 game design.

Bidooof also went Ganon for one game against Bobo, didn't end well for him either
https://youtu.be/xF5X7X7UEOc

 

[Bazkip]

Some more vids

This first one is from a weekend tourney
vs Boreal_Holy (Meta Knight) - https://youtu.be/ogma0qr6nqw
Got bopped lol. Holy2gud and wtf are we really supposed to do about MK anyways. Didn't do too bad game 2 though. Also dat upB.

The rest are from a weekly where I got 4th :D
vs SSBMTL Prower (Kirby) - https://youtu.be/fpGYDAWbsys
Derp. I play with this guy a lot, usually I can avoid the cheese, but not this time.

vs Ikea (Ike) - https://youtu.be/gIxkGlW2ZjE
ez

vs GNDLF_MM (Link) - https://youtu.be/6HPRlwITZgo
GET BODIED
I was super feeling it this one

vs MV2 (Ike) - https://youtu.be/K-j4tKOlaPw
rip the dream chokes 2 strong ;_;

 

[Lafungo]

Was great to see you beat gndlf live! You had some really good reverse-uair edgeguards.
Haven't watched any of the other sets yet.


Got to play another couple sets on stream at SG last week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1ehlGWG3l4 - vs. Bees! (G&W)
Victim of my own hubris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sJxIjhxlN0 - vs. Rose (Toon Link)
Was hardly paying attention because I was still sad about the previous set.


While I'm at it, Shane (formerly Poob) went all Ganon a few weeks back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM-CKOhea2k - vs. Twisty (Wario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFpQO2bwTN0 - vs. Mafia (Peach)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NmTEIgXyFQ - vs. Sora (Falcon)

 

[Nevermind]

Shane (formerly Poob)

That's a downgrade.

@ Bazkip Here's a critique of your first game against Holy. Hope it helps in some way!

0:04 / Against faster characters, it's necessary to consciously cover a rushdown as soon as the game starts (my training partner plays Sonic, so she's burned me that way a looot). Drop -> prepare to F-tilt is probably best. Starting a sprint as you did limits your immediate defensive options unless you can pivot.

0:05 / You DI away from the platform and initiate a tech-chase scenario (I think he could've grabbed you out of the air, actually). You tech in place, which is mistake considering Holy had already committed to a rightward motion. Tech left -> restart neutral. In addition, you bring up your shield immediately following the tech when, once again, rolling to the left eould've presented a safe option. In general, shielding when you could be CCing against small characters (the ones that are too short to be hit by our instant aerials) is a bad idea.

0:15 / You recover to the stage here rather than the ledge, which I assume was an execution flub on your part. I might as well note, though, that Ganon has one of the best ledge games in PM; enough so, even, that your opponent may face more risk than you when attempting to take advantage of your position. Get good at ledge dashes (perfect and imperfect), no impact lands (you can a get jab out invincibly Kreygasm), Up-air re-grabs, reverse ledge dashes (for when refreshing invincibility + as a neat mixup option), grounded-length Flame Chokes, and wavelanding off of overhanging platforms such as the ones on WarioWare.

0:21 / Wiz Kick is always a bad option when your opponent is at zero lol

0:30 / You're close to getting something started here, but you overextend and get the weak hit of Up-air. When your opponent is on a platform like that, try to stay under or next to the side of the platform closest to the center. It's easier to maintain stage control from this position, and if you get a hit it'll send your opponent toward the closest blast zone rather than the other side of the stage.

0:32 / You get desperate and F-air in place, which is a mistake in that Holy still had the ability to dash backwards and then punish the whiff. He didn't need to do that here, though, because you didn't threaten any space with your attack. Using aerials in place outside of situations where the other guy has already committed to something achieves very little against fast characters. It might act as a bait or conditioner against slower characters, but I would use that option sparingly.

0:34 / You manage to escape to a platform immediately drop and opt for a completely pointless Up-air. In this situation, where you're at a disadvantage in terms of positioning, consider jumping to the top platform. From there you'll be able to punish any attacks from below with a well-spaced D-air and can take the opposite platform and restart neutral if your opponent commits to either side.

0:36 / Breaking the habit of shield-grabbing against small characters will instantly improve your success in those matchups.

0:39 / You take advantage of a predictable dash-dance, which is great. I'll say here that DA, although super punishable on block, whiff, or CC, poses Ganon's best and only form of burst movement (outside of DACUS). Learn the immediate range of the attack and punish your opponents if they fail to respect your 'zone' (the area around you where you can instantly put out a hitbox).

0:40 / Great pause on your Up-air timing. You might've wavelanded out of it and exerted a bit more pressure off the hit, but that would've most likely been an over-extension. Always an option to consider, though.

0:46 / Holy times his recovery between your ledge refreshes. It seems as though you decided which option you were going to use before the situation actually unfolded. In this case, you could've ledge-dashed into a grab and set up an easy kill opportunity.

0:47 / At this point you have to realize that you've over-committed and won't be getting an immediate punish. Instead of reaching for the DA here, you might've anticipated and baited out a defensive option from Holy (shield, spotdodge).

0:51 / You mess up the timing on your edgeguard here due to the timing on Metaknight's Up-b being weird and then go for a D-air read as he recovers from the ledge. I don't like that option because you have so many other, safer, equally rewarding ones when you have your opponent on the ledge. At this point in the match Holy has not given you any reason to respect his ledgedash, so chill and CC. Chances are he's gonna use an aerial or try to escape by rolling (which he did) or going high off of a tournament winner.

0:55 / See my previous comment about using stationary aerials. They rely on the opponent screwing up and running into your move, which, more often than not, especially against good players like Holy, isn't going to happen.

0:56 / There's no real reason to jump out of shield here. Ganon spends 25 frames in the air if you fastfall your SH perfectly. That's a huge commitment. So a general rule of thumb: if you can stay grounded, stay grounded (Nevermind, 2015). Wavedashing out of shield to the right would've been a solid choice here.

0:57 / That was a really slow waveland. You could've hit him with the inside hitbox of Up-air had you done it correctly.

0:59 / No reason to put yourself above him when he's that close to you. Stay off of platforms unless your using them to threaten space with WLs or take the top platform, and remember to choose the situations in which you WL very carefully. Putting yourself in the air with your opponent nearby is just doing their job for them.

1:06 / Good thought with the CC. Learning the percent up to which you can CC MK's N-air could make the matchup a lot less painful.

1:08 / Bad roll.

1:09 / I like the WD OoS. A retreating F-air would've beat the N-air out more reliably.

1:11 / Immediately refreshing invincibility like that is one of my bad habits, too. Practice taking the ledge, and then using an option on the first possible frame. Holy was being overaggressive here, so you definitely could have reversed the situation (which you did, but not before nearly getting killed by D-tilt).

1:20 / Try not to use your float so carelessly. Put yourself in a position within reach of the ledge and then bait your opponent into making a preemptive move via your second jump and float. If all else fails, it's usually best to recover high and take a hit cuz Ganon's fat and can do that.

You seemed really flustered the rest of the match, so I won't point out all the obvious stuff. In general, I think you could improve the speed and cleanliness of your movement and take a more focused approach to the neutral game. I'm still trying to figure out the second part, so maybe we can theorycraft a bit on Discord sometime.

 

[Bazkip]

Was great to see you beat gndlf live! You had some really good reverse-uair edgeguards.

I think this is the first time you've ever said anything positive to me.

That's a downgrade.

@ Bazkip Here's a critique of your first game against Holy. Hope it helps in some way!

0:04 / Against faster characters, it's necessary to consciously cover a rushdown as soon as the game starts (my training partner plays Sonic, so she's burned me that way a looot). Drop -> prepare to F-tilt is probably best. Starting a sprint as you did limits your immediate defensive options unless you can pivot.

0:05 / You DI away from the platform and initiate a tech-chase scenario (I think he could've grabbed you out of the air, actually). You tech in place, which is mistake considering Holy had already committed to a rightward motion. Tech left -> restart neutral. In addition, you bring up your shield immediately following the tech when, once again, rolling to the left eould've presented a safe option. In general, shielding when you could be CCing against small characters (the ones that are too short to be hit by our instant aerials) is a bad idea.

0:15 / You recover to the stage here rather than the ledge, which I assume was an execution flub on your part. I might as well note, though, that Ganon has one of the best ledge games in PM; enough so, even, that your opponent may face more risk than you when attempting to take advantage of your position. Get good at ledge dashes (perfect and imperfect), no impact lands (you can a get jab out invincibly Kreygasm), Up-air re-grabs, reverse ledge dashes (for when refreshing invincibility + as a neat mixup option), grounded-length Flame Chokes, and wavelanding off of overhanging platforms such as the ones on WarioWare.

0:21 / Wiz Kick is always a bad option when your opponent is at zero lol

0:30 / You're close to getting something started here, but you overextend and get the weak hit of Up-air. When your opponent is on a platform like that, try to stay under or next to the side of the platform closest to the center. It's easier to maintain stage control from this position, and if you get a hit it'll send your opponent toward the closest blast zone rather than the other side of the stage.

0:32 / You get desperate and F-air in place, which is a mistake in that Holy still had the ability to dash backwards and then punish the whiff. He didn't need to do that here, though, because you didn't threaten any space with your attack. Using aerials in place outside of situations where the other guy has already committed to something achieves very little against fast characters. It might act as a bait or conditioner against slower characters, but I would use that option sparingly.

0:34 / You manage to escape to a platform immediately drop and opt for a completely pointless Up-air. In this situation, where you're at a disadvantage in terms of positioning, consider jumping to the top platform. From there you'll be able to punish any attacks from below with a well-spaced D-air and can take the opposite platform and restart neutral if your opponent commits to either side.

0:36 / Breaking the habit of shield-grabbing against small characters will instantly improve your success in those matchups.

0:39 / You take advantage of a predictable dash-dance, which is great. I'll say here that DA, although super punishable on block, whiff, or CC, poses Ganon's best and only form of burst movement (outside of DACUS). Learn the immediate range of the attack and punish your opponents if they fail to respect your 'zone' (the area around you where you can instantly put out a hitbox).

0:40 / Great pause on your Up-air timing. You might've wavelanded out of it and exerted a bit more pressure off the hit, but that would've most likely been an over-extension. Always an option to consider, though.

0:46 / Holy times his recovery between your ledge refreshes. It seems as though you decided which option you were going to use before the situation actually unfolded. In this case, you could've ledge-dashed into a grab and set up an easy kill opportunity.

0:47 / At this point you have to realize that you've over-committed and won't be getting an immediate punish. Instead of reaching for the DA here, you might've anticipated and baited out a defensive option from Holy (shield, spotdodge).

0:51 / You mess up the timing on your edgeguard here due to the timing on Metaknight's Up-b being weird and then go for a D-air read as he recovers from the ledge. I don't like that option because you have so many other, safer, equally rewarding ones when you have your opponent on the ledge. At this point in the match Holy has not given you any reason to respect his ledgedash, so chill and CC. Chances are he's gonna use an aerial or try to escape by rolling (which he did) or going high off of a tournament winner.

0:55 / See my previous comment about using stationary aerials. They rely on the opponent screwing up and running into your move, which, more often than not, especially against good players like Holy, isn't going to happen.

0:56 / There's no real reason to jump out of shield here. Ganon spends 25 frames in the air if you fastfall your SH perfectly. That's a huge commitment. So a general rule of thumb: if you can stay grounded, stay grounded (Nevermind, 2015). Wavedashing out of shield to the right would've been a solid choice here.

0:57 / That was a really slow waveland. You could've hit him with the inside hitbox of Up-air had you done it correctly.

0:59 / No reason to put yourself above him when he's that close to you. Stay off of platforms unless your using them to threaten space with WLs or take the top platform, and remember to choose the situations in which you WL very carefully. Putting yourself in the air with your opponent nearby is just doing their job for them.

1:06 / Good thought with the CC. Learning the percent up to which you can CC MK's N-air could make the matchup a lot less painful.

1:08 / Bad roll.

1:09 / I like the WD OoS. A retreating F-air would've beat the N-air out more reliably.

1:11 / Immediately refreshing invincibility like that is one of my bad habits, too. Practice taking the ledge, and then using an option on the first possible frame. Holy was being overaggressive here, so you definitely could have reversed the situation (which you did, but not before nearly getting killed by D-tilt).

1:20 / Try not to use your float so carelessly. Put yourself in a position within reach of the ledge and then bait your opponent into making a preemptive move via your second jump and float. If all else fails, it's usually best to recover high and take a hit cuz Ganon's fat and can do that.

You seemed really flustered the rest of the match, so I won't point out all the obvious stuff. In general, I think you could improve the speed and cleanliness of your movement and take a more focused approach to the neutral game. I'm still trying to figure out the second part, so maybe we can theorycraft a bit on Discord sometime.

Okay so Holy is a top professional and I'm just some random mediocre scrub. As a result I'm not going to be playing anywhere near what I'm capable of since I'm just trying to not get absolutely demolished. The skill gap puts a lot of pressure on me and so I flub stuff and make bad, panic decisions more frequently, but mainly you won't see me doing a whole lot because he simply won't give me the opportunity to get anything started. Idk if you really took this into account.

0:05 That wasn't a tech, I was already out of hitstun.

0:15 This is what I was talking about above. I can do most of things you listed with good consistency. You don't see it simply due to the fact that everytime I get sent offstage, I die, because Holy's edgeguards very well, Meta Knight has a very good edgeguard game, and Ganon's recovery is easy to intercept. Also, recovering high onstage is actually very likely the best option. Dropping low gives him more times to prepare an edgeguard, and is likely what he's expecting. If I get hit while high up I can likely get another chance to try to come back. If he hits me low it's over. Could be mixing up more, there's some occasions where I could've tried airdodging to get back, and I don't know why I kept fairing (you probably have mentioned these fairs for being bad somewhere down the line in your post lol)

0:21 panic wiz foot lol. This and other random moves that I throw out that don't accomplish anything are just panic moves. I know they're bad but it's hard to deal with that :/
I do a lot of panic moves/actions in general though so I don't really get to toss out that allegation lol.

0:51 yo I ledgedashed here just fine why are you telling me to learn it lol

1:06 the CC possibly could've worked actually, I just dtilted too early. Derp.

1:20 I don't really see how the float was bad here, what screwed me over was the fair that ended up losing to the getup attack because apparently Meta Knight's >100% ledge attack is still intangible while the hitboxes are active. I thought that intangibility ending prior to the start of the hitboxes was a universal thing for ledge attacks but apparently I was wrong. I really don't think it was unreasonable to assume I was in a position there where I wouldn't get knocked back offstage...

Idk what approach I can take in neutral when I'm playing against someone who's a far superior player to me who's also using a character with a far superior neutral game. Literally just need to be a better player.

This probably comes across as me being really negative and contrary lol, not my intention. Any of your points I didn't address are things I agree with, thanks for the write up

 

[Bazkip]

Took a game off Bidooof's Falcon before he bopped me with Game & Watch
https://youtu.be/icbjyVRLWxE

 

[Nevermind]

Idk what approach I can take in neutral when I'm playing against someone who's a far superior player to me who's also using a character with a far superior neutral game. Literally just need to be a better player.

Sorry for the ultra-late response - I have family visiting... :[

Sorry if I came off as condescending. I mentioned each mistake you made, even the dumb ones that don't necessarily speak to your skill, because verbalizing the concepts involved works to cement them in both my mind and yours. As for the above quote, I think that you might be viewing your results/skills in too general a light. I tend to say that "I played badly" after I lose, which, while accurate in a broad sense, does not push me toward improvement. Smash isn't some intangible, nebulous thing - each game can be broken down almost infinitely and analyzed. When I say I played badly, I'm referring to the fact that I made an unusually high amount of poor or sub-optimal decisions. When you say that Holy is a better player than you, you're saying that the decisions he makes are generally superior to yours. In both cases, our decisions can be broken down in their respective contexts and judged. Through this, you learn to respond optimally to particular situations in theory and eventually put that into practice via conscious thought. That's what makes a good player, in my opinion: having an awareness of every possible matchup and situation, and knowing how to respond to both. I have a very East Coast mentality ("optimal" ad nauseam) that neglects the player-to-player aspect of the game, though, so I'm sure my views are a bit naive. In any case, I'll look forward to your disagreements, and I'm going to make a post about Ganon's neutral soon-ish that will hopefully open up a bit of dialogue on that topic and help us begin to nail down some of these annoying matchups.

 

[aznasazin11]

So is it generally poor etiquette to post twitch links? I'm not sure if my matches from our last monthly are gonna be uploaded and I would really like some feedback on my neutral game and help with the Marth match up.

 

[CORY]

it's not poor ettiquette necessarily, but they're not as easy to navigate through so i tend to avoid looking through them for critiques : (

 

[Bazkip]

Sorry for the ultra-late response - I have family visiting... :[

Sorry if I came off as condescending. I mentioned each mistake you made, even the dumb ones that don't necessarily speak to your skill, because verbalizing the concepts involved works to cement them in both my mind and yours. As for the above quote, I think that you might be viewing your results/skills in too general a light. I tend to say that "I played badly" after I lose, which, while accurate in a broad sense, does not push me toward improvement. Smash isn't some intangible, nebulous thing - each game can be broken down almost infinitely and analyzed. When I say I played badly, I'm referring to the fact that I made an unusually high amount of poor or sub-optimal decisions. When you say that Holy is a better player than you, you're saying that the decisions he makes are generally superior to yours. In both cases, our decisions can be broken down in their respective contexts and judged. Through this, you learn to respond optimally to particular situations in theory and eventually put that into practice via conscious thought. That's what makes a good player, in my opinion: having an awareness of every possible matchup and situation, and knowing how to respond to both. I have a very East Coast mentality ("optimal" ad nauseam) that neglects the player-to-player aspect of the game, though, so I'm sure my views are a bit naive. In any case, I'll look forward to your disagreements, and I'm going to make a post about Ganon's neutral soon-ish that will hopefully open up a bit of dialogue on that topic and help us begin to nail down some of these annoying matchups.

I uh...don't actually disagree with this. Though just to clarify on the Holy statement, it wasn't meant to be some black/white declaration that he's just better than there's nothing that I can about it, but rather that he has far greater experience than me that I cannot overcome until I put in a far greater amount of time, effort and practice. Though the end result of it is that currently there's not a whole lot I can do when I face him lol. But maybe some day.

In other news I got 4th at another weekly! Yeah boi we getting dat consistency.

vs Carlil (Roy) - https://youtu.be/DPYK-F3cSLg
So happy with this one, I've had so many close sets against this guy but he always took it in the end, but I finally got one up on him. Though still can't edgeguard Roy for ****, should be easier now but I drop it. Think I've got PTSD from his old recovery lmao.

vs Niak (Charizard) - https://youtu.be/68gVrZFVmPY
vs MV2 (Ike) - https://youtu.be/YOHok1eYO80
I just don't know how to go about these matchups. They're both more mobile characters with more range and disjoint, have much better recoveries and hit just as hard as us. Not to say they're unwinnable or anything, and there's certainly worse matchups, but just uggghhhh.

 

[Lafungo]

Played my Winners Round 1 match on stream last week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDFK9rGPyIA - vs. Maveric (Mario)

Looking forward to Blacklisted this week-end, might get some stream time if I'm lucky. As an added bonus, tomorrow's weekly will be running doubles as prep for Blacklisted, which makes me happy.

 

[Bazkip]

Played my Winners Round 1 match on stream last week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDFK9rGPyIA - vs. Maveric (Mario)

Looking forward to Blacklisted this week-end, might get some stream time if I'm lucky. As an added bonus, tomorrow's weekly will be running doubles as prep for Blacklisted, which makes me happy.

Only 30 seconds in and a Mario dash attack goes unpunished on shield. Freakin Mario.
You later started punishing those dash attacks with dairs but those were only working due to him messing up, imo uair or nair oos is probably a better response (wavedash back ftilt/dtilt could work too).
Mario's recovery can be tough to edgeguard cause lol 7 frames of intangibility and good hitboxes but there were a bunch of times you could've just grabbed ledge and that would've been it.
What was up with the dthrow dsmashes? Input errors?

Didn't really matter much though cause you were better than him.

Also @The_NZA Ganon's jab isn't frame 1, it's frame 3.

 

[Lafungo]

I try to shieldgrab by instinct, which sucks against Mario.
I know the dairs are bad, it's a habit I'm trying to get rid of. I'm not sure uair or nair OoS would hit Mario, isn't he too short for that? I've been trying to force myself to WD back OoS in that situation, which I think is the best option, but have to give it conscious thought to execute it.
I often get punished for trying to grab ledge against Mario, because he can up-B on reaction (similar to Roy), so I usually try to wait for and punish side- or down-B instead. I admit I was also being lazy in this particular set.
Every dthrow dsmash was meant to be dthrow dair.