Should the new "Borderline Tier" be included in Mid + Low Tier Tournaments?

[DeLux]

Tier List v.7 introduced a "Borderline" Tier of characters featuring:


:gwbrawl:




Seems like an interesting discussion topic to discuss.

What are people's thoughts?

[collapse="Tier List 7"]

Top
S: (±0)
A: (+6) (-1) (+3) (-2)
B: (-2) (-2) (+1) (-3)

High
C: (+2) (-1) (-1) (+1)

Borderline
D: (+2) (-2) (-1) (±0) (+3)

Mid
E: (+1) (-1) (+3) (±0) (-5) (-1) (+1)
F: (+2) (±0) (+1) (-4)

Low
G: (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1) (±0)
H: (+1) (-1) (±0) (±0)​

[/collapse]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321738

 

[-LzR-]

I think all of those guys are viable with a secondary in higher tiers anyways and are far to good to participate in Middletier tournaments imo. Not that I have played any Middletier tournaments, we don't do tiertourneys here.

 

[Ishiey]

Well, their losing MUs in BL and below according to the MU chart are:
- -1 to Sheik
- even w/ Fox/Wolf, beats everyone else @_@
- -1 to Kirby, -3 to Sheik
- -1 to G&W/Wolf/Fox
- -1 to G&W

Lucas only has one -1 (Bowser) in Low Tier tournaments and no even MUs. By that logic, I'd say that if anyone needs to go it's G&W, but the rest are acceptable. They'd have the strongest showing in mid-tier tournaments for sure though.

 

[DeLux]

I know Xyro for Whobo has decided to go with Tier List 6 to decide his tournament rules (which effectively removes only Game and Watch from the mix).

Especially the ramifications for doubles might be important to look at considering the character.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think so. If they did allow them, then what would be the point of the borderline tier?

 

[salaboB]

I don't think so. If they did allow them, then what would be the point of the borderline tier?

To let tournaments decide if they should allow them or not based on preference of the TO?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Then what's the point of this thread?

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I always think of Borderline in pokemon tiers. Too bad for high tier, but too good for mid tier. In pokemon, the Bl tier cannot be used in UU, but it can be used in OU It goes OU>BL>UU

And GnW would **** tournaments too hard.

 

[salaboB]

Then what's the point of this thread?

To have a discussion that TOs can reference when making their decision.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think if Borderline chars are allowed in mid tier tournies, then nobody would use the actual mid tier characters unless it was their main or something.

The BL tier ourclasses the Mid tier something awful, which is why they were moved up there in the first place. They're essentially all High Tier characters who lack the results to actually be high tier.

 

[san.]

I wouldn't really mind, can't tell much difference between them and midtiers as far as mid tiers are concerned.

 

[Plasma]

I feel like G&W should have remained in High Tier. That being said, I'd personally say they should be allowed in Mid Tier tournaments.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I feel like it's not a good idea to use the tier list to decide which characters should be allowed. G&W/Peach are clearly not high tier characters and yet they shouldn't be allowed because they are slapped in the same tier as characters like Pit and Fox who *are* arguably high tier? It might just be because I have serious issues with who is part of that borderline tier but I'd rather allow them even though I think it's the most inaccurate tier. In case of doubt I'd rather add too many characters and increase the amount of options / fun instead of making it boring by removing so many character. As long as a character isn't broken within a certain environment I'm all for allowing him.

Low Tier events with Jiggs, Falcon, Ganon, Link, Zelda, Samus, Bowser, Mario, Luigi, Ness, Lucas, Yoshi, Ike, Pokemon Trainer and Sonic are much more interesting and fun than LT events with about half those characters cut out of the roster. Even Sonic, Ike and Yoshi aren't 'too strong' and can still lose to like Mario, Samus and whatnot even if they may not be "low tier" in the strictest sense of the definition.
For mid tiers I'd be OK with adding Sheilda, DK, Kirby, Peach, ROB, GW, Lucario, ZSS, Toon Link, Wolf, Fox, Pit even though I don't believe Fox and Pit to be actually mid tier characters.

tl;dr add borderline - none of these characters are 'too good' for mid tier and more characters = more options = more fun / more competitive.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't understand the point of this borderline tier. None of those characters are too good for mid tier; hell, arguably many of the characters in high tier could be in mid tier.

While I don't have any problems with the ordering of the last tier list, I do have issues with how it's divided and designated.

In any case, yes, I would say borderline tier is probably good for mid tier tournaments, unless someone seriously wants to argue that Wolf and Peach are too strong for mid tier. I mean, really though?

 

[lordvaati]

I always think of Borderline in pokemon tiers. Too bad for high tier, but too good for mid tier. In pokemon, the Bl tier cannot be used in UU, but it can be used in OU It goes OU>BL>UU

And GnW would **** tournaments too hard.

haha G&W is the Kyurem of Smash

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

And Hippowdon

Can't ever forget Hippowdon.



But aside from that, I think that all of these characters are just High tier who got ripped off and placed in some ****ty other tier. They shouldn't be allowed in Mid Tier- tournaments because they aren't mid tier characters, they are better. If they are used more, than there is a reason for that. I haven't been to a mid tier tournament, but I would assume that they have the same motive as low tier tournaments: to get underplayed characters some usage.

 

[Sunnysunny]

BL tier are characters that could be high tier, but get F'd up in certain matchups that prevent them from being solo-viable.

Pit and peach are just kinda, there. I dunno. Do they get gay'd in some way?

 

[Kink-Link5]

what the hell is a kyurem

I thought BL was like

Arodactyl, Ampharos, and Tantacruel.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Maybe in Gen 1 XD
Kyurem is Gen 5

And D3 gets screwed by some top tiers too. I think BL just got excluded for not being broken enough.

 

[Loz8ichimaru]

arguably many of the characters in high tier could be in mid tier.

There are 4 characters in high tier in this tier list, so no lol, otherwise there would be no high tier at all. To me borderline means borderline high, and should just be another row for high tier. Whoever thought borderline was a good idea as a tier is an idiot.

 

[Ghostbone]

And Hippowdon

Can't ever forget Hippowdon.

Hippowdon isn't BL on PO...

G&W is more like Deoxys-D, completely predictable but still too good for the competition.

Anyway Borderline should be treated as mid tier, if one of those characters is too good for mid tier tourneys then they can be banned from mid tier tourneys, the whole group doesn't have to go.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd be fine with it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

To be fair, any analogy to Pokemon tiers is silly because the criteria by which they are made is really really dumb.

First tier is decided by being "too good for the rest"
Second tier is decided because the Pokemon in it are used a lot
Third tier is decided by being "Too good for the pokemon that aren't used, even though they aren't used either"
Fourth Tier is decided by being "Used when the other ones are banned"
Fifth Tier is decided by being "Not used very much when the ones above tier four are banned, but are still sometimes used in tier four."
Sixth Tier is decided by being "Worse than the other tiers"

There's like no consistency.

Besides the fact that making a tier list decided by use of the characters is just idiotic. RE:Olimar.

If every competitive player put a Spinda on their team, even if it was just gun fodder, it would be OU, and you couldn't use it in an NU metagame.

Every tier should just be a banlist for the ones below it. Tentacruel is not too good to be used in a UU metagame, but Zapdos gets to run freely about in the metagame tearing through 30% of a team by itself? Something isn't making sense about that to me.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Just a wild guess but doesn't the pokemon tier list look like that because the game is unbalanced as **** and has one million characters? Just saying it seems a bit odd to just blame it all on the list.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Usage tiers were indeed used because they are far easier to create, however inaccurate they might be.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Usage is quite relevant in pokemon, I was more making the analogy that Bl = Too good for what's below it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I feel like it's not a good idea to use the tier list to decide which characters should be allowed. G&W/Peach are clearly not high tier characters and yet they shouldn't be allowed because they are slapped in the same tier as characters like Pit and Fox who *are* arguably high tier? It might just be because I have serious issues with who is part of that borderline tier but I'd rather allow them even though I think it's the most inaccurate tier. In case of doubt I'd rather add too many characters and increase the amount of options / fun instead of making it boring by removing so many character. As long as a character isn't broken within a certain environment I'm all for allowing him.

Low Tier events with Jiggs, Falcon, Ganon, Link, Zelda, Samus, Bowser, Mario, Luigi, Ness, Lucas, Yoshi, Ike, Pokemon Trainer and Sonic are much more interesting and fun than LT events with about half those characters cut out of the roster. Even Sonic, Ike and Yoshi aren't 'too strong' and can still lose to like Mario, Samus and whatnot even if they may not be "low tier" in the strictest sense of the definition.
For mid tiers I'd be OK with adding Sheilda, DK, Kirby, Peach, ROB, GW, Lucario, ZSS, Toon Link, Wolf, Fox, Pit even though I don't believe Fox and Pit to be actually mid tier characters.

tl;dr add borderline - none of these characters are 'too good' for mid tier and more characters = more options = more fun / more competitive.

Good post. I definitely agree, for the most part, although I have some mild disagreement on which characters should be added (ZSS? Seriously? ) – the tier list shouldn't determine who gets to compete in mid/low tiers; matchups should. Hell, imagine a top tier character who is top tier only because he has good matchups against other top tiers and most of his real problem matchups are low/mid tiers. That hypothetical character would probably be completely fine in mid/low tier tournaments!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

They should be allowed, if only because they're not that good. Defeats the purpose of calling them "borderline," though. Are we calling them non-high tier tournaments now?

 

[UltiMario]

To be fair, any analogy to Pokemon tiers is silly because the criteria by which they are made is really really dumb.

First tier is decided by being "too good for the rest"
Second tier is decided because the Pokemon in it are used a lot
Third tier is decided by being "Too good for the pokemon that aren't used, even though they aren't used either"
Fourth Tier is decided by being "Used when the other ones are banned"
Fifth Tier is decided by being "Not used very much when the ones above tier four are banned, but are still sometimes used in tier four."
Sixth Tier is decided by being "Worse than the other tiers"

There's like no consistency.

Besides the fact that making a tier list decided by use of the characters is just idiotic. RE:Olimar.

Every tier should just be a banlist for the ones below it. Tentacruel is not too good to be used in a UU metagame, but Zapdos gets to run freely about in the metagame tearing through 30% of a team by itself? Something isn't making sense about that to me.

Pokemon players stumble into tier threads, and of course insults go flying.

Basically Pokemon is
Ban Tier (Ubers- destroy usual Pokemon in OU)
OU (Main Metagame most used Pokemon)
Ban Tier 2 (BL- Ubers of UU)
UU (don't have enough usage to be OU)
Ban Tier 3 (BL2- Ubers of RU)
RU (don't have enough usage to be UU)
NU (don't have enough usage to be RU)

Any Pokemon in a tier above the other is banned in the lower tier. It's a multi-tier system, each has its own metagame. OU would be normal smash (or MK would also be Ubers in MK ban tournies), UU would be like Mid tier tournies, RU would be low tier, and NU would be Triforce+ Tier tournies. Ban tiers of course, are also vote-based, not usage based. Everything is in a tier for a reason, Pokemon is a pretty developed metagame. Zapdos is UU and Tentacruel is OU because, well, Tentacruel functions in the metagame better than Zapdos! It's the same reason why if you lose to high tiers... you're going to be lower on the tier list than having good high tier match-ups. I don't think Pokemon is a perfect way to look at tiering (especially not in a fighter with match-ups and such), but it's not a bad reference point when looking at lower tier tournies and how other communities draw the line for low/mid tier kinds of bans.

Borderline, to at least us, would mean exactly something that was said earlier. "High tiers, but don't have the results to be high tier." Of course, it's COMPLETELY up to the TO if they let these characters in or not, but that's how I'd interpret it, and I'd say these characters would be banned in a Mid tier tourney. They're still high tier characters, just not as used for X or Y reason IMO.

If every competitive player put a Spinda on their team, even if it was just gun fodder, it would be OU, and you couldn't use it in an NU metagame.

In Gen 4, there was a time Magikarp was #7 on the Ubers ladder once. Too good

 

[Kink-Link5]

Tentacruel isn't OU because it beats Pokemon in UU, is the only problem.

I kind of see what you're trying to say.

Okay not really, but I got your definition of BL at the least.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think Ike would do better than GW in a mid tier tournament.

 

[SFA Smiley]

^I actually get that feeling too.

GW is... a weird case...

He doesn't really **** the lower tiers like most people think he does IMO.

I think for most characters he is a doable matchup, because of the way his character is designed.

The only problem I see with having Gdubs legal is his awesome *** CPs against characters he fares well against in the first place. I don't see him being a particular threat for a mid tier tourney in a more conservative stagelist though.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

No, that is the entire point of it.

 

[salaboB]

No, that is the entire point of it.

Then why not call them high tier?

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

Because "borderline" means in between. In this case, it is between high and mid. This means that it is higher than mid but lower than high. It is higher than mid. Things that are higher than mid are banned from mid tier tournaments. Borderline is higher than mid. Borderline is banned from mid tier tournaments. Does this make sense?

 

[infiniteV115]

That was the most useless post I've ever seen. He's asking why you don't just call borderline tier high tier, so he's probably asking why we shouldn't just push all the characters that are in borderline tier into high tier.

 

[salaboB]

That was the most useless post I've ever seen. He's asking why you don't just call borderline tier high tier, so he's probably asking why we shouldn't just push all the characters that are in borderline tier into high tier.

Exactly.

High tier is tiny, there's lots of room in it for the "Borderline" tier. Unless someone felt that they were borderline between mid and high, and might be suitable in a mid tier tournament -- hence this discussion.

A straight "No they're not mid tier" is actually avoiding the entire issue of why they aren't just in high tier if they're not meant to be considered for mid tier tournaments.

Edit: Also, this line from the tier list post itself:

It was harder than ever to decide whether the characters in D should be grouped with high or mid and we decided to introduce the borderline tier. Whether they should be included in mid tier tournaments or not is up to the individual TO. Low tier has not changed.

I guess people didn't bother reading through the whole post? Anyway, that's why it's worth having a discussion about -- so individual TOs can use this discussion as a reference when making the call.

 

[The Ben]

So we invent a new tier and then argue which tier the tier should be in. Makes sense.

 

[Kink-Link5]

When can we just move Luigi, Ness, and Lucas into RU tier; they defecate all over low tier tournaments so we should ban them from them.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

When can we just move Luigi, Ness, and Lucas into RU tier; they defecate all over low tier tournaments so we should ban them from them.

Actually they'd be BL2.