Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Curaga]

...

Moving on from that 'friend'ly conversation.

Anyone else had the free time to try out that Shiek combo with a friend?

 

[Mortimer]

Actually, quite the opposite, your view is outdated.

The weakening of the word "friend" has been occurring for quite some time now, and is a known psycholinguistic fact. Part of it has to do with social networking (facebook especially plays a role, along with other sites that refer to all contacts as "friends"), but there's a general move towards expanding friend to mean well beyond what "friend" used to mean, and this fact is expounded in the dictionary.

I don't disagree with this idea, but do you have a source? I can't find any discussions or publications on the usage of friend. It might provide me with some insight into what's wrong with your argument, or perhaps what's wrong with my train of thought.

However, I will note that Merriam-Webster is updated on a consistent basis to reflect changes in language, which is why you'll find "google" and other similar terms there.

Fair enough. It simply provides little context for words and their general usage. Look up "gay" and "*****rd" for examples where context would be useful

(Ouch. Take a wild guess what the board censored.)

I also note that it includes no mention of facebook friends. That's either due to a lack of context or a slow update cycle, either of which demonstrates a flaw in its usefulness as a reference.

Generally speaking, a group of people who you have close personal relationships with are "close friends", whereas "friends" can include a wide variety of relationships beyond that scope.

So yes, your views on what the word "friend" means are a bit old-fashioned.

A general weakening of the term "friend" does not make your usage proper, just as a riot would not make looting acceptable.

I jokingly referred to you as McCain earlier, based on your initial definition of "friend", and it seems fitting to bring it up again now. If you watched the various debates or kept track of the news, you may know that McCain overused the word. The term is not so degraded that his generic usage was accepted.

Can you explain this discrepency between your claim that friend includes a wide variety of relationships and the above observation?

-----

In case you can't tell, I'm having fun with this discussion. I'm not trying to upset you (or anybody else reading), I just like words

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't disagree with this idea, but do you have a source? I can't find any discussions or publications on the usage of friend. It might provide me with some insight into what's wrong with your argument, or perhaps what's wrong with my train of thought.

Ok, I'll drop something to establish the existence of the effect.

enjoy

Fair enough. It simply provides little context for words and their general usage. Look up "gay" and "*****rd" for examples where context would be useful

(Ouch. Take a wild guess what the board censored.)

I also note that it includes no mention of facebook friends. That's either due to a lack of context or a slow update cycle, either of which demonstrates a flaw in its usefulness as a reference.

Or...

The current definitions already cover "facebook friend", which they do.

A general weakening of the term "friend" does not make your usage proper, just as a riot would not make looting acceptable.

How so?

If language changed to accommodate it, that makes it's the linguistically proper usage of the word.

I jokingly referred to you as McCain earlier, based on your initial definition of "friend", and it seems fitting to bring it up again now. If you watched the various debates or kept track of the news, you may know that McCain overused the word. The term is not so degraded that his generic usage was accepted.

Can you explain this discrepency between your claim that friend includes a wide variety of relationships and the above observation?

Because pundits were looking for something to criticize.

 

[Vyse]

In case you can't tell, I'm having fun with this discussion. I'm not trying to upset you (or anybody else reading), I just like words

So do I Mortimer, but do try to keep this on topic.



EDIT: That goes for all of you

 

[Master Raven]

this topic is boring

 

[Schwaumlaut]

Look up "gay" and "*****rd" for examples where context would be useful

(Ouch. Take a wild guess what the board censored.)

Since we're now talking about words, I feel compelled to jump in.

'*****rd' is etymologically distinct from '******', being derived from the old german word for "stingy" rather than the latin word 'niger', meaning black (same 'niger' as in Nigeria, incidentally). *****rd also isn't a great example since it sees almost no use in contemporary english, whereas 'gay' gets tossed around like a convict's salad.

Oh crap, I didn't see Vyse's post.

I would like Metaknight being banned, but mostly because I main Marf and it would make my life easier. I do think that there's some overcentralization going on, though; people obsess over the MK matchup constantly. It gets really boring, after a while.

 

[Frown]

I voted "no".

Because Metaknight mainers will be

 

[salaboB]

Especially because it deals with cast size inconsistently, for example, you'd be hard pressed to find a game with a cast of 12 that doesn't fit your new criteria.

Really? What's my new criteria that causes this?

(I would point out that any criteria I ever mentioned was intended solely for Brawl. I have not tried to create such a sweeping set as could be applied to any game -- improving Brawl's competitive scene has been the only goal of any such suggestion I've made. Therefore it's not really worrisome to me if it doesn't scale properly, but I am curious what you think will cause it to likely ban characters from a cast of 12. The only criteria I ever laid out hard details for was one that wouldn't ban Marth if MK was banned when people were insisting Marth had no bad matchups except MK -- which is false. That is not my actual ban criteria.)

 

[RDK]

Really? What's my new criteria that causes this?

(I would point out that any criteria I ever mentioned was intended solely for Brawl. I have not tried to create such a sweeping set as could be applied to any game -- improving Brawl's competitive scene has been the only goal of any such suggestion I've made. Therefore it's not really worrisome to me if it doesn't scale properly, but I am curious what you think will cause it to likely ban characters from a cast of 12. The only criteria I ever laid out hard details for was one that wouldn't ban Marth if MK was banned when people were insisting Marth had no bad matchups except MK -- which is false. That is not my actual ban criteria.)

I understand that you're trying to make ban criteria tailor-made solely for Brawl, but we keep pointing out to you time and time again that there's no reason not to just go with the generic competitive fighting game criteria that works for literally every other fighting game out there. Even aspects that are unique to Brawl (E.G., items) fall under the most basic ban categories for fighters (overcentralization).

And when the hell did Vyse become a mod? Looks like they're getting a little loose with their admissions process.

 

[salaboB]

I understand that you're trying to make ban criteria tailor-made solely for Brawl, but we keep pointing out to you time and time again that there's no reason not to just go with the generic competitive fighting game criteria that works for literally every other fighting game out there. Even aspects that are unique to Brawl (E.G., items) fall under the most basic ban categories for fighters (overcentralization).

It's not actually tailor made to Brawl so much as not worrying about whether it applies to other fighters directly -- though I still think it would, actually, which is why I'm curious what adumbrodeus sees as the problem it will have with lower count games.

That being said, there's always a reason to tailor things to the specific game they're going to be applied to: You can improve the details based on that community's preferences, strengths, etc. to create a better competitive experience than just following the generic criteria would produce. I don't believe this will ever get tested, but I am of the opinion that banning MK would improve the competitive Brawl scene in the long run (Custom criteria) while leaving him unbanned (Global criteria) will simply let it continue as it is now, which seems to be somewhat stagnant.

Fighting game communities do not all have the same tolerances for continuing to play with one character being overly effective -- and if the community would simply die off (There will always be a core, but there would be a lot less tournaments/attendees) then the global criteria is obviously not optimal for that game. Whether MK is such a case for this community is what has spawned three massive threads and many side discussions, but letting a game die rather than creating custom criteria that would keep it fun and people playing seems silly.

I'm not saying Brawl will die over this (That was an example of when using custom criteria would make sense), but I don't see it staying exciting and pulling in lots of new people either and that's not too good a sign for a competitive game that people want to keep playing for a while to come -- and I don't know if banning MK would improve that or not. I simply think it will, though it's possible it's too late in the game's life cycle already.

 

[Masmasher@]

I'm not saying i agree with salabob on custom and global criteria entirely but i am saying that different fighting communities have different standards. As they rightfully should. Cause some fighting games are more detailed then others. thats why its silly to compare MK to other fighting game matchups arbitrary by numbers and their results. So what if chun li has only one bad matchup. Or akuma and yun had none. Unless you look into the inner contingencies of why thats the case people should stop just throwing out other games out there to compare.

 

[Overclassed]

What exactly is banning a last resort to?

Like, what list of things does a community try before banning this or that?

I dunno, just seems awkward to call banning a last resort if the two options are "ban" or "not ban".

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

Lol He Should Be Banned. He Is To Cheep To Broken. Like People Who Use Him Suck At The Game Im Sryy I Dont Look On The Tier List And Pick The Top Guy Like Give Me A Break. Same Goes For Snake I Think Snake And MK Should Be Banned .

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

Like U Guys Ban All Items But Then U Pick Snake And MK Ya Thats Fair. If Ur Like Me And U Like Playing With The Guy U Have Played With Since The Game Came Out Then U Have Skill Ur Not A Loser To Pick MK And Snake

 

[noodles]

XD

im sorry this is the first time i saw a post like this here

 

[Masmasher@]

Man... is easier to type like that..... just seems like it would be harder and longer to type that way.

 

[ndayday]

K. I realize you're either a troll or completely wrong, but I'll go at it anyway.

Lol He Should Be Banned. He Is To Cheep To Broken. Like People Who Use Him Suck At The Game Im Sryy I Dont Look On The Tier List And Pick The Top Guy Like Give Me A Break. Same Goes For Snake I Think Snake And MK Should Be Banned .

Ok. You start out with an opinion, which is perfectly fine. After all, this is what the entire debate is about. Cheap is a word meaning 'good and easy', so I guess I can agree with you to some degree on that. Broken is disputable. You then continue to say another opinion, but make it sound like a fact. How do you know that people look at the tier list and say, "Huh. I think I'll main MK." Some people may, but you are just assuming that everyone does it. You then say that anyone who uses MK or Snake suck at the game, which is a completely ignorant and dumb thing to say.

Like U Guys Ban All Items But Then U Pick Snake And MK Ya Thats Fair. If Ur Like Me And U Like Playing With The Guy U Have Played With Since The Game Came Out Then U Have Skill Ur Not A Loser To Pick MK And Snake

Items are completely random etc., while MK and Snake aren't. You therfore can't make a good comparison between the two. Also, how about the people that have played MK/Snake since the beggining? They must automatically have skill now, while anyone after the moment they played the game must be a loser. Your analysis on the situation is very flawed and is based on biased opinions as well as comparisons that make no sense and do not apply.

 

[Pez55]

Lol He Should Be Banned. He Is To Cheep To Broken. Like People Who Use Him Suck At The Game Im Sryy I Dont Look On The Tier List And Pick The Top Guy Like Give Me A Break. Same Goes For Snake I Think Snake And MK Should Be Banned .

Like U Guys Ban All Items But Then U Pick Snake And MK Ya Thats Fair. If Ur Like Me And U Like Playing With The Guy U Have Played With Since The Game Came Out Then U Have Skill Ur Not A Loser To Pick MK And Snake

Ignore these posts people.

 

[RDK]

Man... is easier to type like that..... just seems like it would be harder ansd longer to type that way.

No, he's just a moron. He tried typing in all caps and the site doesn't let you do that, so it just capitalizes the first letter of every word.

It's not actually tailor made to Brawl so much as not worrying about whether it applies to other fighters directly -- though I still think it would, actually, which is why I'm curious what adumbrodeus sees as the problem it will have with lower count games.

That being said, there's always a reason to tailor things to the specific game they're going to be applied to: You can improve the details based on that community's preferences, strengths, etc. to create a better competitive experience than just following the generic criteria would produce. I don't believe this will ever get tested, but I am of the opinion that banning MK would improve the competitive Brawl scene in the long run (Custom criteria) while leaving him unbanned (Global criteria) will simply let it continue as it is now, which seems to be somewhat stagnant.

Fighting game communities do not all have the same tolerances for continuing to play with one character being overly effective -- and if the community would simply die off (There will always be a core, but there would be a lot less tournaments/attendees) then the global criteria is obviously not optimal for that game. Whether MK is such a case for this community is what has spawned three massive threads and many side discussions, but letting a game die rather than creating custom criteria that would keep it fun and people playing seems silly.

I'm not saying Brawl will die over this (That was an example of when using custom criteria would make sense), but I don't see it staying exciting and pulling in lots of new people either and that's not too good a sign for a competitive game that people want to keep playing for a while to come -- and I don't know if banning MK would improve that or not. I simply think it will, though it's possible it's too late in the game's life cycle already.

Well the only way you're going to get your criteria to be accepted, or at least considered, is if you host several tournaments utilizing it and see what the data says. And not just one tournament; there needs to be a relatively big enough set of data to work from.

This is exactly what the pro-items people did a while back. They came up with a certain list of items they felt would be acceptable in competitive play and then they molded tournaments around it.

What exactly is banning a last resort to?

Like, what list of things does a community try before banning this or that?

I dunno, just seems awkward to call banning a last resort if the two options are "ban" or "not ban".

The point I was trying to make when I said we ban things as a last resort was that we definitely don't ban things on "gut reactions", or just because Group X doesn't like it. There needs to be an objective standard for banning, because drawing arbitrary lines in the sand is going to eventually come back and bite us in the ***.

Which means things need to be tested and considered.

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

Wat A Nub I Know Peeps Who Pick MK And Snake Without Looking At The List. But There Not Trny Peeps Ok Peeps That Go To Trnys Know About The List And Forget About The Character That They Use To Use. Thats Dumb Dont Be A Loser Stick With Ur Main.





2. Items Are Good There Not Cheep I Wont Lie Some Are Like The Bombs And Hammers And Other Stuff. But Not All Items Are Cheep C If U Say The Smash Ball Is Cheep Ur Wrong And U Know Y Let Me Tell U Why. I Waz Link Before And I Waz VS Ganondorf He Got The Star And I Got The Smash Ball. I Waz Trapped At The Edge And Then All I Herd Waz Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh Ganons Punch And I Thought I Waz Dead No Time To Jump At All. So I Waz Scrared And Pushed B Links Triforce Smash Went Straight To Ganons Punch. And Then The Screen Flashed And Nthing Happend We Were Just Stading There Star Waz Gone Smash Ball Waz Gone. So There Is A Way To Counter The Star And Smash Ball. So There Items Are Not Cheep U Guys Just Cant Play Good With Them So U Take It Off. Look At The Bigg Trny Us Had Flight Our Fight Look On U Tube They Used Items And They Are The Best In Us So Get Booked .




PS I Won That Match Lol

 

[RDK]

Is anyone else rolling around the floor in laughter right now?

 

[Pez55]

Wat A Nub I Know Peeps Who Pick MK And Snake Without Looking At The List. But There Not Trny Peeps Ok Peeps That Go To Trnys Know About The List And Forget About The Character That They Use To Use. Thats Dumb Dont Be A Loser Stick With Ur Main.

2. Items Are Good There Not Cheep I Wont Lie Some Are Like The Bombs And Hammers And Other Stuff. But Not All Items Are Cheep C If U Say The Smash Ball Is Cheep Ur Wrong And U Know Y Let Me Tell U Why. I Waz Link Before And I Waz VS Ganondorf He Got The Star And I Got The Smash Ball. I Waz Trapped At The Edge And Then All I Herd Waz Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh Ganons Punch And I Thought I Waz Dead No Time To Jump At All. So I Waz Scrared And Pushed B Links Triforce Smash Went Straight To Ganons Punch. And Then The Screen Flashed And Nthing Happend We Were Just Stading There Star Waz Gone Smash Ball Waz Gone. So There Is A Way To Counter The Star And Smash Ball. So There Items Are Not Cheep U Guys Just Cant Play Good With Them So U Take It Off. Look At The Bigg Trny Us Had Flight Our Fight Look On U Tube They Used Items And They Are The Best In Us So Get Booked .

PS I Won That Match Lol

Wait, so your calling MK and Snake cheep and the people who use them are n00bs, but your saying that items aren't cheep?

Get this guy out of here...

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

Is anyone else rolling around the floor in laughter right now?

lol This Guy Looked At The Tier List True Nub Get Better K.

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

Wait, so your calling MK and Snake cheep and the people who use them are n00bs, but your saying that items aren't cheep?

Get this guy out of here...

No Nub Yes Some Items Are Cheep And Thats Y The Game Gives U The Option To Turn The Cheep Ones Off.

 

[Pez55]

lol This Guy Looked At The Tier List True Nub Get Better K.

So he laughed at your pathetic post, and your calling him a nub for looking at the tier list?

Give me strength...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*sigh*

Why are the idiots/trolls on this sight almost always Canadian? It makes me shamed to be one.

H_A, learn how completive Brawl works, how to type without capitalizing everything, and then shut up and leave.

 

[Frown]

*sigh*

Why are the idiots/trolls on this sight almost always Canadian? It makes me shamed to be one.

H_A, learn how completive Brawl works, how to type without capitalizing everything, and then shut up and leave.

That's right, blame Canada.

 

[aeghrur]

... adumbrodeus, what happened to your thread about jurisprudence? )=<
I'M GONNA CLAIM MYSELF WINNER UNLESS YOU POST AGAIN!

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

*sigh*

Why are the idiots/trolls on this sight almost always Canadian? It makes me shamed to be one.

H_A, learn how completive Brawl works, how to type without capitalizing everything, and then shut up and leave.

Are U Dense Wow Its My Way Of Spelling Ok. This Guy Is A Nub U Can Just Tell Because Of The Way He Talks .

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

So he laughed at your pathetic post, and your calling him a nub for looking at the tier list?

Give me strength...

True Nub I Said He Looked At The List And Choose Who Is High Up On The List .

The Sad Thing Is That People Who Are Tlking Smash Are The People Looking On The List Lmao Go Ahead Use Mk And Snake Show Me Some Skill With The 2 Guys That Are Broken.

 

[SuSa]

Are U Dense Wow Its My Way Of Spelling Ok. This Guy Is A Nub U Can Just Tell Because Of The Way He Talks .

We have standardized English for a reason. It's so you don't look like an idiot when talking to others. You go to school to learn how to read and write and because of so - people expect for you to use it.

Like I this could really talk wanted if I to.

But I don't. Now ff you want to discuss further, take it to PM's.

Also please avoid double posting.



Now let's get this back onto MK discussion not proper English.

The Sad Thing Is That People Who Are Tlking Smash Are The People Looking On The List Lmao Go Ahead Use Mk And Snake Show Me Some Skill With The 2 Guys That Are Broken.

Please show us what led you to believe either character is "broken". If you think these two characters are, you should really go play other competitive games - such as those that have actually banned characters for being "broken".

 

[Pez55]

Hylian Akatsuki, please stop calling people nubs, it's very irritating. Plus it makes you look like a person that doesn't own Smash Bros. at all yet wants people to think that your good at it.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Wow, obvious trolls are obvious. There is no need to respond to them.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I love how much food the troll is being given.

 

[Pez55]

So yeah, so lets get back on topic here...

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

We have standardized English for a reason. It's so you don't look like an idiot when talking to others. You go to school to learn how to read and write and because of so - people expect for you to use it.

Like I this could really talk wanted if I to.

But I don't. Now ff you want to discuss further, take it to PM's.

Also please avoid double posting.



Now let's get this back onto MK discussion not proper English.



Please show us what led you to believe either character is "broken". If you think these two characters are, you should really go play other competitive games - such as those that have actually banned characters for being "broken".

Srry U Cant Read Lol There Broken Get That People Who Say There Not. They Use Them Cuz They Looked At The List. Lol Look At The List Some More.

 

[Pez55]

Srry U Cant Read Maybe U Should Go Back 2 School Lol There Broken Get That People Who Say There Not Use Them Cuz They Looked At The List. Lol Look At The List Some More.

*Ignored...he'll be banned by tomorrow.

So I'm guessing he's pro-ban?

 

[Hylian Akatsuki]

Hylian Akatsuki, please stop calling people nubs, it's very irritating. Plus it makes you look like a person that doesn't own Smash Bros. at all yet wants people to think that your good at it.

Lol Nubs This Is The Topic Wow. Mk Should Be Banned Period. Plz Stop Using The The List Use Ur Own Skill.


Lol Im Gonna Be Banned Cuz My Point Is Right Thx Once I Get Banned. Ill Know I Waz Right Thx All.

 

[Pez55]

Mk Should Be Banned Period..

Ok, now that you got that point across, why should he be banned? Other then the fact "People use him because he's at the top of the tier list."

 

[SuSa]

Now let's get this topic back onto proper discussion, starting now.


Still anti-ban because MK is not impossible to beat. If he somehow got infinites or something that were easy to setup and applied to the entire cast except himself and everyone flocked to him because he doesn't infinite himself. I may reconsider my viewpoint.