ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
THis is smashboards, I mean look at what happened with me and thinkaman.
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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
For some reason, you like to post **** that has been refuted, **** that's wrong, and **** that doesn't matter pretty often.
Who *cares* if MK made the difference between that guy winning or not? Who cares if Dark Pch is better or not? I mean no offense at all to Dark Pch, but seriously, you think that it's bull**** that MK can gimp you with a single aerial? Pretty much EVERY character can do this in one way or another, or maybe even multiple ways! I've KO'd opponents at 0% with Ness. Ban? I've KO'd opponents with a tilt at 10% as Zelda. Ban? Why does this mean anything for MK when everyone can do something similar? Go watch some combo videos of good players, and while they're still just combo videos, notice how it is not uncommon to see something similar being done. Why does MK get a special ride?
The Tornado johning needs to stop. Once again, the Tornado should only beat you up when you're in lag of some kind or just a horrible position (and not even for more than 10% at a time and shouldn't be responsible for 60 damage of all the damage you take against a competent MK, unless you just leave yourself open that much). If you shield the entirety of the Tornado, you should be following up with a punishment, and by the time he comes at you with another, your shield should be fine. If you're in a position to break the Tornado, do it. The fact that you're upset about having to shield a move and instead think that you shouldn't have to and that MK should just be banned anyway only hurts your image (and in turn, your credibility and how much people are willing to listen to you).
And I mean, what are you trying to prove with the whole "Olimar's Up B and Link's bombs" drivel? Are you trying to say that the fact that people have to use those moves to stop the tornado is a bad thing? While you don't HAVE to use them, they're reliable moves for breaking the Tornado. Note how I use "reliable" and not "practical", which can be argued for each individual move. Who cares *what* move you have to use in a match-up? If you have one single move that can save you from getting your **** wrecked and you have the opportunity to use it, why the **** would you not use it? You're not making much of a point here at all.
I don't understand how you keep coming to these conclusions. If you're arguing that it's unfair that you have to shield the Tornado in a way that requires more input than just R and that it's silly to have to resort to Link's bombs, honestly, you shouldn't be trying to argue anything at all and go work on improving yourself to the point where you aren't getting ***** by a single move.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
They're both being applied to the same ban criteria, so it's a valid comparison. They're being compared in two things which they can be logically compared in, match-up dominance and tournament dominance.
This isn't Super Turbo Akuma, this is HD remix Akuma.
Both are broken as heck, but in HD remix, Akuma was supposed to be balanced but Sirlin ****ed up royally, a combination of bugs and a few poor balance choices resulted in Akuma having amazing traps and inescapable set-ups, and in general being way too good. Because of this he richly deserved a ban based on his own merits.
Basically, he was nerfed, but not nearly enough.
*fixed
You're correct sir (I know what you meant, but HD remix is a version of SF2, so that didn't make much sense), HD Remix akuma can't fireball trap you to death... He just has inescapable raging demon, and a few other nasty tricks that give him 90-10s against most of the cast.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ You already know that 71% of the time that people will just look at a post and just reply when a few words get their attention like I were to say that Meta Knight shouldn't be ban because it's too soon and have a few words after it. But the mindset of some people will just say that I just want Meta Knight ban because it's too soon and nothing further of what I typed. ☆
☆ I would post my reasons why Meta Knight shouldn't be banned, but I did that in the last two threads, and I don't know what to say on this thread anymore but to see what the SBR thinks now. ☆
Then your post didn't even make any sense.
You were saying that the SF community was smart in banning Akuma and that the same logic should apply to the Smash community in regards to Meta Knight. I said that was bull**** and you replied with.....your post had nothing to do with Akuma? WTF?
rehab
Smash Journeyman
not quite
There were tournaments held where he was allowed 1st quarter this year, and the only person winning them was the guy leading the charge to get him banned (a Gief lol). In 2 weeks of learning Akuma he beat past EVO contenders and champs including DarkSydePhil and Justin Wong (against whom he had gotten pretty roughly beat before) while telling everybody in his radius to ban Akuma because he would kill the game. He was serious as hell about manning up and proving his point. HDR Akuma hasn't been given the total final axe yet, but is gone from the EVO event and his chances are looking pale atm.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Well I'll leave all of that for someone else to go through with.
I suppose SWF will never wreak of intelligence like other fighting game communities do :/
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I just realized that custom titles can't be editted anymore.
How disappointing.
RDK: He was talking about the reasoning behind Akuma's banning. Not necessarily Akuma himself.
@steel: Course not, smash community is relativel young in comparison and is much more prone to attracting idiots. Which is kinda why I would like to be int he SBR just so I can see what intelligent people discuss. Then pry and poke at them until they squirm.
Hmm...that is not a healthy thing I think.
How disappointing.
RDK: He was talking about the reasoning behind Akuma's banning. Not necessarily Akuma himself.
@steel: Course not, smash community is relativel young in comparison and is much more prone to attracting idiots. Which is kinda why I would like to be int he SBR just so I can see what intelligent people discuss. Then pry and poke at them until they squirm.
Hmm...that is not a healthy thing I think.
Holy **** dude.
How can you not comprehend this? Take out the two sentences I said about Akuma and read it.
"People need to go and look back at the basics, not just meta's crazy stuff.
Look at his range compared to execution speed. He outranges characters such as Marth, but has the attack speed of someone who would lack a weapon. That's an imbalance right there. You shouldn't be attacking within 3 frames while still outranging the majority of the cast. That's just dumb.
His sword can't clash, thus having REAL priority. You can't just stick something out against this guy because he can hit your hand/leg etc if you do. The concept of zoning him kinda goes out the window right there.
The list goes on. He has too many options in many scenarios. Some character's just aren't meant to be competitive. I don't see how some people in this community can't realize this."
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
That's a funky use of that word. I've never seen it used quite like that... maybe "reek" sounds better? (Not being a jerk here.)
rehab
Smash Journeyman
There are many characters fast enough to get in MK's face and hit him with quick enough moves that they can go blow for blow, priority is not the only thing that matters, look at Wario. Having the ability to punish a lot of things is fine, just don't be an idiot when going up against it. Doesn't make ban with that alone.
I can totally not believe you just compared Akuma to MK.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
Youre not really debunking what hes saying your basically saying play smarter. he didnt say that was all that matters ether but what he say does hold significance.
This is the smash community after all.
You've said nothing that the pro-ban hasn't said from the dawn of time. Your argument here is basically an appeal to emotion built on top of a lot of whining about how MK is too good.
He doesn't shut down half the cast. He makes a small handful of characters unviable, which is arguable at best. He doesn't overcentralize to the point of ridiculousness. He doesn't force you to play as him in order to win.
Banning him because he has a just-enough-to-be-annoying-but-not-enough-to-warrant-a-ban edge over the rest of the cast is not a good reason. He's still not ban-worthy.
Good thing he caught himself too, because he completely shuts down his entire argument in the space of one post.
Everyone who knows better just ignore that last part of his post.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
rehab
Smash Journeyman
You are right. And?
If you lose to any character because their moves come out faster and have larger hit boxes when you atack at the same time they do, you are doing it wrong because you are probably attacking at the wrong time. Good players don't lose to priority alone, because they know how to handle it.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Not really, priority allows you to wall opponents with hitboxes, preventing you from ever getting in. This is an aspect of zoning.
Captain Falcon vs. MK or Marth... HAVE FUN!
rehab
Smash Journeyman
Oh please dude Captain Falcon? Even if he gets in he does 12% if he's lucky then degrades one of his only kill moves, zoning doesn't ruin Falcon Falcon ruins himself. You don't need gdlk priority if you outmaneuver the other guy to the point where you're in position to put a legitimate hurt on him, which is what Wario is all about. You probably need to be a somewhat good enough character to pressure shields and be hard to punish to do this, and metaknight won't make it easy, but saying it's not regularly doable with multiple characters is saying real play doesn't happen.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
Sigh.........
Look if the answer was that simple we wouldnt be here would we. Also he didnt say that is all that matters did he. You could say your answer to anyone in any fighting game facing any character. Even the banned ones. By your standards no character should be banned. Well In short words.....your wrong. You are trying to debunk a entire history of fighting game standards with a psuedo answer. Yes play smart is important but knowing the interior contingensies of the game is important too.
Except that MK does not place as high or as often as everyone says he does. Does anyone care to debate this point? We have no shortage of data available, it's quite easy to prove, and has been done many times.
Nice try, but this has nothing to do with anything.
The argument is that MK is "overcentralizing the metagame", when in fact he only has 25% of national tourney top 8 placings.
I don't care if the roster has 25 character, 39 characters, 2 characters, or infinity character.
Meta Knight is still placing the exact same amount. In no way is anything being discussed remotely relative to total cast size.
Please, enlighten us all to my mathematical errors.
Yes, because counters are a unique concept to Brawl, and no fighting game has ever had strong counters in its cast before, especially Melee.
"Strange counterpicking mechanic", gimme a break, this isn't even worth my time.
Listen.
First the problem is "Meta Knight wins too many tourneys."
Too bad, Marth won more.
Then the problem changes to "Well, Marth didn't place as much in lower placings, so there's more diversity!"
Too bad again, there were just as many Foxes placing high as Meta Knights, and the other top characters all placed more often than all the top characters in Brawl hands down.
So which is the problem? Is it that MK is winning too much, or that he is "overcentralized" and placing too often? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Sorry, we were too busy actually beating Meta Knights. But I'll address your point anyway.
You do realize that the non-clash property of his sword, combined with his poor aerial mobility, makes MK the worst character in the game against projectiles, even worse than Ganondorf?
By all means, go on. Do share these mythical options and scenarios that put MK so far above the rest of the cast!
Watch, I can make a big deal out of theoretical talking points too:
-Squirtle has a frame 1 jab with a great jab-combo that can trip on jab 2.
-Squirtle has one of the strongest throws in the game, and a decent grab.
-Squirtle has one of the smallest hurtboxes in the game.
-Squirtle has the highest delta between fall speed and fast fall speed in the game, resulting in unparalleled overall aerial mobility.
-Squirtle's hydroplaning let's Squirtle do effectively any smash or grab while moving any distance at an unmatched speed by anyone in the game.
-Squirtle's ending lag on throws, tilts, and aerials allow true combos and hard punishes of dodges, something few other characters in the game can do.
Wow, sitting here in my armchair I really made Squirtle sound good by talking up random good things about him, didn't I?
I hope the community has the wisdom to ban him before the metagame overcentralizes around Squirtle. WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!
Which has to do with Meta Knight........ how?
Um, never?
In at least a dozen tourneys I have never had anyone switch to MK against me mid-set. Ever.
I have also never seen a MK ditto in finals. Ever. (Anther and lain help that a lot.)
rehab
Smash Journeyman
MK does not have a 100% safe jump in, and with alert DI he doesn't combo people completely beyond what other characters are similarly capable of. It's cool we both see it's a fundamental disagreement here. If you think MK is so pervasively good that he has manifold options that are godlike compared to everybody else in terms of damage and their safeness from prediction and optimal reaction, which means everything in levels of play that aren't garbage, then I have nothing else to say to you.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
You seem to be failing to understand WHY Captain Falcon is pathetic.
It's priority he lacks any descent semblance of priority, therefore ANYBODY can zone him to death, well at least pretty much anybody.
Oh, I can give tons of match-up based examples, but captain Falcon is the universal priority fail in this game, and that's why he's terrible.
Well, more specifically, he lacks a combination of priority and speed.
For example, his u-tilt is rather high priority, but is slower than many smashes...
Playing Falcon is an exercise in timing more so than spacing, due to this. But that's a whole 'nother topic.
For example, his u-tilt is rather high priority, but is slower than many smashes...
Playing Falcon is an exercise in timing more so than spacing, due to this. But that's a whole 'nother topic.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
That, and his lack of means to pressure, inflict damage, kill at reasonable percents without resorting to randomsmashandpray or putting himself at a terribly punishable position afterward like say the knee does, and his generally terrible characteristic in everything from grab range to throws to shield options to how easy he is to string random BS on to recovery.
Again, Wario. If I attack at the same time as anybody else is, short of baiting with bite or timing armor frames with fsmash or whatev, I am doing it wrong because I can be **************** grabbed out of dair for god's sake, that doesn't make it a move that isn't amazing. I am still a good character because I have terrific pressure, damage racking power, killing power and general attributes.
As Falcon I get most my kills with uair and u-tilt. His lackluster grab range is augmented by his dash speed, like Sonic. His huge problem is approaching.
Wario is a good example, everything you said is true.
Wario is a good example, everything you said is true.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
I kill with those too, but it takes so dam* long because I'm using uair for almost everything else that I don't use bair or jab for and utilt just plain takes a while. I have to get just outside of their face and try to make them give me something most of the time. He's depressing.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
All of which he'd have if he had reasonable priority on some of his moves.
Because Wario has other attributes that make him work? Like amazing aerial mobility?
Again, it's not a simple matter of priority alone, other attributes can make it work, but there are very very few characters that can afford to safely ignor priority due to having good enough other attributes.
In other words, Wario's ability to function in spite of having poor priority is character specific, NOT the rule of the game, few other characters can do it.
Zelda has fantastic priority, as does Ike. I don't see why you are so focused on a singular element of the game that MK isn't even the best in. G&W has the best overall priority.
I hope this doesn't sound personal, but adumbrodeus, your arguments made it clear that you are not a good player at this game. I would money match you for at least $20, with both Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon. A quick Youtube scan seemed to confirmation my speculation and suggest that this would be easy money.
I'm in western Kentucky, so I can only hope that our paths cross at tourney in the South sometime.
I hope this doesn't sound personal, but adumbrodeus, your arguments made it clear that you are not a good player at this game. I would money match you for at least $20, with both Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon. A quick Youtube scan seemed to confirmation my speculation and suggest that this would be easy money.
I'm in western Kentucky, so I can only hope that our paths cross at tourney in the South sometime.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
Dont ask a question if you dont really want to hear the answer. Your still giving that play smarter jazz. Also metatknight isnt akuma i never said he was..... I even said that the games were different a couple posts ago.
Yes to a majority of the cast his options are godlike.
You can't just say that. Stop putting MK on this pedestal on Mt. Olympus, you're not fooling anyone. We've all played MK. We've all beaten MKs. We know how much of an advantage he really has, for better or worse, in most of his matchups.
Exaggeration does not change the reality of tourney results.
rehab
Smash Journeyman
Original point being: good characters can punish quickly given they use an optimal response and deal good damage doing it, and every character hat meets that qualification can punish a higher priority move not by hoping to beat the move with one of theirs, but by selecting the proper response to punish them for being predicted. Watch any given good match and it's not people just spamming priority moves at the right spacing, it's people forcing openings often despite priority.
Side note: Falcon has never needed priority, because he has always had the ability to force his way in and punish you to hell with high reward options that put the other guy in a terrible position. Hmmmmm given the character attributes he has always had I wonder what happens when you take that, his only outstanding strength away hmmmmmmmm
A jump in is basically an approach. Metaknight has approaches that are safe, damaging and overall hard to deal with, but freaking read him and choose the correct way to punish him (if your character is reasonably good I guarantee you they have an answer of some sort), that's what you have to be trying to do to be better than average at anything competitive
Side note: Falcon has never needed priority, because he has always had the ability to force his way in and punish you to hell with high reward options that put the other guy in a terrible position. Hmmmmm given the character attributes he has always had I wonder what happens when you take that, his only outstanding strength away hmmmmmmmm
Never denied it, because the people who here things like it take it the wrong way entirely when it is in fact the answer at the end of the day
seriouslydudewow, read in context
A jump in is basically an approach. Metaknight has approaches that are safe, damaging and overall hard to deal with, but freaking read him and choose the correct way to punish him (if your character is reasonably good I guarantee you they have an answer of some sort), that's what you have to be trying to do to be better than average at anything competitive
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
OMG.....You are acting like rehab. You are simply saying play smarter. I know this. By the way you arent saying he doesnt have a astronomical amount of options. Who am i trying to fool.
Also....... dammit thinkman bringing adambrodus playing skill into context has no place in this debate. Dont try to hit below the belt. HES NOT EVEN PRO BAN.
By the way I'm not proban ether. Im on the fence.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
A character with range and priority on their moves is given far more opportunities to read and punish their opponents. Because, when they predict correctly which move an opponent will use, they have the option to throw out a rangier/higher priority move. Options.
Thats the problem with falcon, and thats the problem with MK. options.
I'd also just like to throw in, MK is completely broken. What other game, when faced with a broken character, creates goofy rules to try to balance that character instead of just banning it. (idc, planking)
Thats the problem with falcon, and thats the problem with MK. options.
I'd also just like to throw in, MK is completely broken. What other game, when faced with a broken character, creates goofy rules to try to balance that character instead of just banning it. (idc, planking)
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Ok... So...Steel2nd said:
Every other Marth is a baby and/or sucks against MK, which is why Marths are basically all pro-ban except him and Pierce7d? NEO certainly finds MK vs Marth to be winnable, and he proves it by beating top ones a lot, so why can't other Marths step it up and just win?
Apex results.Successor of Raphael said:
NEO beating top MKs.
Dark Peach took a risk and got punished for it.P. O. F. said:
If he was winning, he should have camped and stayed on the stage, where it's safe to fight MK.
Ok, Emblem Lord. Go play those games, then.Steel2nd said:
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
IDC = glitch, and glitches of that nature are banned in every game worth a competitive community
planking = arbitrary thing that applies to everyone, not just MK
planking = arbitrary thing that applies to everyone, not just MK
He doesn't. I was goign to leave the burden of proof on you, but heck, I'm bored.
Let's say I'm Jigglypuff, on the ground, in front of MK. What are his options?
Dash attack or grab? Dair beats either, but I prefer reading it to shield/dodge and counter-grab, since I'm Jigglypuff. Plus, if I dair too much, he will start baiting them with dashes and jumping into fairs instead.
Up-B? Please, that's just asking to get shield grabbed.
Nado? Lol, a random nado? Please don't argue that this is a legit option, I'm giving you a hint here.
Walk forward? This is his best bet, since I have to either bait a f-tilt chain and roll to grab or pound, or jump and try to take the battle to the air.
I really don't care, this isn't kickball teams. Someone says something wrong, I'm going to correct them. If someone insists on a wrong point while not having any background to give it validity at all, I'm going to point that out.
I'm not saying bad players or anyone else aren't allowed to have opinions or discuss or have a say in the community. I'm saying that they are in no position to insist things relating to the abstract mechanics of the game when they themselves have no shown any mastery of them.
I have actually agreed with a lot of adambrodus's posts, including in this topic, and think they are well-written. But, on this obsession with priority, he is very misguided.
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