Rhubarbo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,035
I've recently had a little debate on the Smash Bros. sub-reddit about Project M's balance under my handle on that site, u/newaythewind, which has compelled me to start this thread.
Since I saw the PMDT's October 18th blog post on design philosophy, I've had a burst of hope for Project M going forward. If the fundamental design philosophy underlying Project M's balance is subject to change, then most of 3.0's moderate issues are liable to disappear. Moreover, talk about adding depth has me downright salivating. Fortunate as all of this may be, it spurs discussion about a quirk the PMDT have abode since their inception, and that is their largely unwavering preservation of Melee's top tier characters in Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. The persistence of this approach is relevant to what the PMDT have forwarded in their recent blog post. Practically, subjecting Melee's top tier characters to (the possibility of) fine tuning promotes integral balance, and more broadly, furthers the identity of Project M. No doubt, these are two objectives that resonate with a progressive design philosophy. This discussion is prime for this moment because Project M is both far from complete and apparently a sleeping contestant in the sweeping battle between Melee and Smash 4. If Project M is to find its self, now is the time we the community can help it the most.
Yes, most of Melee's top tier characters aren't top tier in Project M, but that's an inadequate argument for their preservation. Most of the heavily adjusted characters who have skyrocketed in viability through the course of 3.0's meta-game development are broken in at least one sense of the word. On the one hand we have characters with exceptionally strong basic utility - see Lucas, Mewtwo - and on the other hand we have characters who are unsatisfying to succeed with - see Link, Zelda. These aforementioned characters are at least better than some of Melee's top tier characters, but they are accordingly problematic. As I see it, most of Project M's issues are a trickle down product of preserving Melee's top tier characters. Since balance is slanted upward instead of inward, the domain of novel changes the PMDT can use to improve the rest of the cast is inherently smaller. Thus, we see engine-shattering strengths and scripted tools to drive viability. If these core characters are subjected to honest scrutiny, I imagine they'd receive changes, I imagine the rest of the cast would have to be less powerful, and I'm sure balance would benefit overall.
Yet, there is a subjective reason to preserve Melee's top tier characters, and that reason is obviously the players. Even subtle changes to a beloved character like Fox can understandably dishearten longtime Melee players. Nevertheless, now is the time to examine the reward for eschewing utter devotion to the whims of the die hard. Since the Smash 4 scene is actively scoring new players and the Melee scene is harbouring most of the old-school fans, Project M is presently able to make a name for its self as the premier competitive Smash title. I propose this niche is vital for the long term survival of Project M, lest PM forever play second fiddle to Melee. As an unexpected turn of events, I maintain that deeply interested Melee players will eventually convert to PM should it prove it can be better than Melee. Melee's meta is exponentially stagnating, and when it comes to a halt, Project M should be ready to receive migrating members from its bordering sub-community.
Now is when Project M can become more than just Melee within Brawl, it can be the sequel Brawl never was. Growing pains would radiate from head to toe if this approach is taken. For example, how can the PMDT keep Fox equally technical if they nerf his shine? Maybe they can, that's a design challenge. Maybe they just have to make him satisfying in some other way, that's a design challenge. Maybe Fox doesn't have to be nerfed at all, but honestly examining him is, you guessed it, a design challenge. It could take many iterations before something sticks, and that's just a fact about balancing so many variables. For Project M to come into its own it has to weather these difficulties. Since we'll probably never get another competitive Smash game from Nintendo, the burden rests on the community's shoulders to forward the competitive side of Smash. Crucial to any progress would be an honest examination of the familiar core. Thus, the PMDT should open the books on every character. If they want to genuinely abide by the blog they recently posted, I think they have to do this.
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This post was made by Canon on page 3 of this thread. I think it's a really convincing argument, so I've elected to add it to the OP.
Since I saw the PMDT's October 18th blog post on design philosophy, I've had a burst of hope for Project M going forward. If the fundamental design philosophy underlying Project M's balance is subject to change, then most of 3.0's moderate issues are liable to disappear. Moreover, talk about adding depth has me downright salivating. Fortunate as all of this may be, it spurs discussion about a quirk the PMDT have abode since their inception, and that is their largely unwavering preservation of Melee's top tier characters in Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. The persistence of this approach is relevant to what the PMDT have forwarded in their recent blog post. Practically, subjecting Melee's top tier characters to (the possibility of) fine tuning promotes integral balance, and more broadly, furthers the identity of Project M. No doubt, these are two objectives that resonate with a progressive design philosophy. This discussion is prime for this moment because Project M is both far from complete and apparently a sleeping contestant in the sweeping battle between Melee and Smash 4. If Project M is to find its self, now is the time we the community can help it the most.
Yes, most of Melee's top tier characters aren't top tier in Project M, but that's an inadequate argument for their preservation. Most of the heavily adjusted characters who have skyrocketed in viability through the course of 3.0's meta-game development are broken in at least one sense of the word. On the one hand we have characters with exceptionally strong basic utility - see Lucas, Mewtwo - and on the other hand we have characters who are unsatisfying to succeed with - see Link, Zelda. These aforementioned characters are at least better than some of Melee's top tier characters, but they are accordingly problematic. As I see it, most of Project M's issues are a trickle down product of preserving Melee's top tier characters. Since balance is slanted upward instead of inward, the domain of novel changes the PMDT can use to improve the rest of the cast is inherently smaller. Thus, we see engine-shattering strengths and scripted tools to drive viability. If these core characters are subjected to honest scrutiny, I imagine they'd receive changes, I imagine the rest of the cast would have to be less powerful, and I'm sure balance would benefit overall.
Yet, there is a subjective reason to preserve Melee's top tier characters, and that reason is obviously the players. Even subtle changes to a beloved character like Fox can understandably dishearten longtime Melee players. Nevertheless, now is the time to examine the reward for eschewing utter devotion to the whims of the die hard. Since the Smash 4 scene is actively scoring new players and the Melee scene is harbouring most of the old-school fans, Project M is presently able to make a name for its self as the premier competitive Smash title. I propose this niche is vital for the long term survival of Project M, lest PM forever play second fiddle to Melee. As an unexpected turn of events, I maintain that deeply interested Melee players will eventually convert to PM should it prove it can be better than Melee. Melee's meta is exponentially stagnating, and when it comes to a halt, Project M should be ready to receive migrating members from its bordering sub-community.
Now is when Project M can become more than just Melee within Brawl, it can be the sequel Brawl never was. Growing pains would radiate from head to toe if this approach is taken. For example, how can the PMDT keep Fox equally technical if they nerf his shine? Maybe they can, that's a design challenge. Maybe they just have to make him satisfying in some other way, that's a design challenge. Maybe Fox doesn't have to be nerfed at all, but honestly examining him is, you guessed it, a design challenge. It could take many iterations before something sticks, and that's just a fact about balancing so many variables. For Project M to come into its own it has to weather these difficulties. Since we'll probably never get another competitive Smash game from Nintendo, the burden rests on the community's shoulders to forward the competitive side of Smash. Crucial to any progress would be an honest examination of the familiar core. Thus, the PMDT should open the books on every character. If they want to genuinely abide by the blog they recently posted, I think they have to do this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This post was made by Canon on page 3 of this thread. I think it's a really convincing argument, so I've elected to add it to the OP.
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