Should Amiibo's Be Legal In Tournaments?

[Lozjam]

Now, you are off onto a doubles tournament, and all of a sudden, your partner gets sick. Frantic to find someone who was good at smash and that could work at your level. To your disappointment you do not find anyone willing to. Then you remember, you have something that will work with your playstyle, knows your tactics, and is a generally good player. Your Amiibo is the only one capable of playing with you. Should it be legal to use Amiibo's in the place of people, as long as no equipment is fed to it? What about singles? Can your Amiibo take your place in a singles tournament, because you are sick, and do you get the winnings for the tournament? Discuss.

 

[many37]

Amiibos are still CPUs though. They may be smarter than a Lv 9 CPU but still are CPUs. I see your point but an actual human being is much better than a CPU because a human being can learn and adapt to a match. CPUs can't do that.

 

[T0MMY]

After t1mmy really sucked hard in a tournament match I dropped him for a lvl 9 CPU for my next round, won, and then went on to lower it to lvl 7.
Can't wait to replace him with my Amiibo when carrying him is too much to take. I'll take out my little R.O.B. and show it to him as a warning when he's not pulling his own weight, haha!

 

[many37]

After t1mmy really sucked hard in a tournament match I dropped him for a lvl 9 CPU for my next round, won, and then went on to lower it to lvl 7.
Can't wait to replace him with my Amiibo when carrying him is too much to take. I'll take out my little R.O.B. and show it to him as a warning when he's not pulling his own weight, haha!

That's actually pretty impressive that you won a tourney with a Lv 9 CPU. Congrats.

 

[YoshiplayerX]

In doubles yes, but not in singles.
Imagine a computer wins a tournament

 

[Lozjam]

Amiibos are still CPUs though. They may be smarter than a Lv 9 CPU but still are CPUs. I see your point but an actual human being is much better than a CPU because a human being can learn and adapt to a match. CPUs can't do that.

Actually, Amiibos do adapt to within a match. That's what they were designed to do. They do not adapt as fast as a human, but they learn real people tactics and can apply that to specific situations, along with know the inputs of your opponents right away. Could you imagine an Amiibo trained by high level players, knowing the combos that they themselves have mastered, and can read inputs faster than a human? Now the question is, whether the ability to quickly adapt versus extremely well trained Amiibo's will be balanced, and should be used in competitive play. It could really go either way.

 

[many37]

Actually, Amiibos do adapt to within a match. That's what they were designed to do. They do not adapt as fast as a human, but they learn real people tactics and can apply that to specific situations, along with know the inputs of your opponents right away. Could you imagine an Amiibo trained by high level players, knowing the combos that they themselves have mastered, and can read inputs faster than a human? Now the question is, whether the ability to quickly adapt versus extremely well trained Amiibo's will be balanced, and should be used in competitive play. It could really go either way.

Oh interesting. So that means that Amiibos can be unpredictable CPUs. Still it, like @ YoshiplayerX said, would be awkward for a CPU to win a tourney. Who would the prize money go to for first place??? :/

EDIT: Also don't Amiibos can only go up in level up to lv 50?? Would that mean that Amiibos can't get any smarter after lv 50??

 

[Lozjam]

Oh interesting. So that means that Amiibos can be unpredictable CPUs.

Not exactly. When you train an Amiibo it knows your tactics, it uses your strategies, your approach options, your combos, your habits. It's almost like you are there, but it has more of a chance to perfect shield and knows your inputs better, like a Level 9 CPU.

Still it, like @ YoshiplayerX said, would be awkward for a CPU to win a tourney. Who would the prize money go to for first place??? :/

Exactly what needs to be addressed and the issue that goes with it. I would assume it goes to the owner of the Amiibo, as they did train it. But that is why this issue needs to be discussed at length, and whether they should be banned.

EDIT: Also don't Amiibos can only go up in level up to lv 50?? Would that mean that Amiibos can't get any smarter after lv 50??

They will continue learning after Level 50, they will most likely still learn new tactics and such. It's just Level 50 is the input level it can go the highest. Like how a person can only get so far in his input and reaction time, but they can still learn new things.

 

[B0NK]

Hey man, if you wanna pay the extra $10 for the CPU character on your team, I'm sure no TO will care if you wanna team with a CPU.

Hell, if you wanna pay $10 so the CPU can enter singles, I don't think a TO will care about that either.

A CPU will never win a singles tourney though lol.

 

[Piford]

It could be cool side events, but I don't think you should be able to use them in singles. Since Amiibos learn from the opponent. I could have my Amiibos specifically learn from my opponents unitl it gets far enough to learn from higher level opponents. Then have a new Amiibo to learn from then, so on and so forth. You just have other people training it for you, and then you "winning." You could even have it play against lvl 9 to learn frame perfect actions. It wouldn't be fair, and it would probably still loose.

 

[B0NK]

You guys really think an Amiibo CPU can beat a competent player? You guys really think they're going to even be close to that good?!?!

HAHAHAHAH omg i'm dead

 

[many37]

You guys really think an Amiibo CPU can beat a competent player? You guys really think they're going to even be close to that good?!?!

HAHAHAHAH omg i'm dead

Not really. Its a possibility, since Amiibos can learn but still a competent human being is much better than a CPU at the end of the day.

 

[B0NK]

misread pls ignore this

 

[AirFair]

Every time I hear about people who want amiibos in tournaments I can't help but imagine a kind of dogfight where people are betting on a 1 on 1 between two amiibos

 

[Marxally]

No god, no.

 

[Wiley]

So many laughs to be had in this thread XD

ty

If a serious answer is needed, it's hard to give one. I just know if someone lost to one without custom equipment they probably would be out of the scene pretty quickly. It wouldn't be far off from using a level 9 I assume. Maybe a little more advanced but eh...

Would be cool if you could program them though. Like if you could semi TAS them. Just to prioritize certain playstyles/attacks depending on the situation. Actually that would be awesome, Especially for training practice and counterplay. Nintendo get on that >:D

 

[Trickerhere]

Probably a side event most likely imo. For example, amiibo vs amiibo.

 

[Wiley]

Probably a side event most likely imo. For example, amiibo vs amiibo.

If only Michael Vick thought of this sooner.

 

[ChikoLad]

Would be cool if you could program them though. Like if you could semi TAS them. Just to prioritize certain playstyles/attacks depending on the situation. Actually that would be awesome, Especially for training practice and counterplay. Nintendo get on that >:D

That is literally the selling point of Amiibos in Smash, and why this topic's question exists to begin with.

I mean you can't do so on a computer or something, but you basically do that in game.

If you train an Amiibo to Lv50 but only play with items off, for example, it still won't understand how to use items until you teach it too. Or, if you taunt after every KO and your Amiibo is around to observe this, the Amiibo does so too.

 

[Wiley]

That is literally the selling point of Amiibos in Smash, and why this topic's question exists to begin with.

I mean you can't do so on a computer or something, but you basically do that in game.

If you train an Amiibo to Lv50 but only play with items off, for example, it still won't understand how to use items until you teach it too. Or, if you taunt after every KO and your Amiibo is around to observe this, the Amiibo does so too.

Sorry for the assumption, I guess I haven't looked too much into them. I was, in fact, talking about a controlled programming type set up. But that sounds pretty fun :D especially if it picked up my taunting habbits. Hmmm... maybe I'm more inclined to buy one now, I was planning on getting one for game support and personal character respect... I just assumed it would be a slightly more intuitive level "10" Cpu and not something I would use frequently at all. Ty for the info though.

 

[jjjs11]

It would be cool if certain tournaments had Amiibo 1v1s. You would train your Amiibo at home, and then bring it to fight other people's Amiibos. It almost reminds me of Pokemon.

 

[SwoodGrommet]

It'd be pretty boring, in my opinion. Who'd want to see Cpus fight in a tournament?

 

[ChikoLad]

From what I can tell, the "Level" is actually largely irrelevant to how they actually perform, and represents their ability to learn more than how well they play. It isn't as simple as just reaching Level 50, and that automatically makes them better. You could probably make it get to Level 50 fairly quickly by just beating it up, but you have to start actually teaching it stuff when it's at Level 50.

If Amiibo intelligence is anything like Player Ghosts in Tekken, then I think they will be seriously considered for tournament integration.

Should also be noted that customising an Amiibo's stats is also different than customising a player's stats. Players can only wear three pieces of equipment at time. Amiibos, however, are simply "fed" equipment, and absorb it's effects permanently. However, they also absorb the negative effects, I think, so you still have to think carefully about how you feed them, if you want to maximise their stats and perks.

 

[Captain Norris]

What @ SwoodGrommet said. And, what about the equipment dispute?

 

[popsofctown]

I don't find it implausible that a cpu could be made powerful enough to beat a human at smash. CPUs have 1 frame reaction times, something that humans don't get and can't have. Reaction time matters. If you ever fight a Charizard online and have mediocre latency time, you'll learn that, because he'll spam his side B that is balanced around players being able to shield on reaction, except due to latency you won't be able to react in time.

If a cpu is in the neutral state and you perform an attack against it, it can perfect shield based on observing the first frame of that attack. If you start to grab, it can jab you. There's some pretty real advantages there.

I don't know how ridiculous they will let amiibos get, but theoretically they could beat human players.

 

[Wiley]

It'd be pretty boring, in my opinion. Who'd want to see Cpus fight in a tournament?

It's definitely a "for fun" venture, and will be treated as such. I'm not going to say it's not going to ever happen in the waiting hours of tournaments or behind the scenes, but it will more than likely never be a front stage event...
But I understand the hope people have with wanting the most out of their little counterparts, so I don't blame those for trying :D I just got some friendly laughs out of the idea.

 

[Loki]

No because Amiibos are bound to rules similar of those of equipments. Depending on what you "feed" them and how you train them, they gain in certain stats and even gain special abilities similar to equipments (again, depending on what you feed them. this was stated on the 50 extravaganza).

If this is true all the way trough, then I stick with a firm and absolute no. And if its not... why would you even bother? An amiibo lvl. 50 might end just being a CPU of dificulty 15 only, wich still doesnt outplays the adaptability and the thrill of watching humans compete. Amiibos might end up being worse than lvl.9 CPU's, spot-dodging and perfect shielding everything while punishing every single input. This is just an exageration... but hey, we dont know just yet.

As people said, as side-events I see this viable and fun, however as full-fledged tournaments... nuh-huh.

 

[Lozjam]

No because Amiibos are bound to rules similar of those of equipments. Depending on what you "feed" them and how you train them, they gain in certain stats and even gain special abilities similar to equipments (again, depending on what you feed them. this was stated on the 50 extravaganza).

If this is true all the way trough, then I stick with a firm and absolute no. And if its not... why would you even bother? An amiibo lvl. 50 might end just being a CPU of dificulty 15 only, wich still doesnt outplays the adaptability and the thrill of watching humans compete. Amiibos might end up being worse than lvl.9 CPU's, spot-dodging and perfect shielding everything while punishing every single input. This is just an exageration... but hey, we dont know just yet.

As people said, as side-events I see this viable and fun, however as full-fledged tournaments... nuh-huh.

Well, there could easily be a rule of no equipment on the Amiibo, and no feeding the Amiibo.

The Amiibo still learns your strategies. They aren't just a computer, they are made to adapt and learn with you. Could you imagine a computer with qualities like perfect shielding and spot-dodging(Lv. 9 computers have them, so you could easily teach Amiibo's that with Level 9 computers) that can combo, edge-guard, bait, turn cancel, pivot grab, and DACUS?

 

[GroundZero996]

No because you can feed Amiibos equipment.

Even if you have a no equipment rule it will be nearly impossible to moderate without an annoying amount of babysitting. It's too much extra effort imo.

 

[T0MMY]

That's actually pretty impressive that you won a tourney with a Lv 9 CPU. Congrats.

Not as impressive as having to take out 3 stocks in a 1 vs 2 tournament match against DEHF teaming with Atomsk after my teammate (not t1mmy) took my last stock after I told him not to and SD'd it immediately. But I did that at Genesis 2. (with R.O.B.!). I wonder how far I could have gone if t1mmy had been able to attend :^[
Good times.
Level 9 Luigi has proved to be the best CPU partner, we had great synergy somehow, and he won me some money.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sorry but no, Amiibo's will most likely never be legal. Because you can 'feed' them equipment to improve stats how are TO suppose to enforce the rules and make sure your Amiibo aren't enhanced? Also who's to say a level 50 Amiibo would have the same stats as the regular character, it's knock back or knock back resistance could be much higher then a normal character which would be unfair for your opponents.

So that's two major barriers

Solutions
1. Every TO would have to carry a list of normal stats of a level 50 Amiibo for each character to see if your is legal
2. Testing will need to be done to see where exactly if ever does the Amiibo stats surprise the regular characters

 

[Shiliski]

I don't think anyone really cares if my CPU can beat your CPU, regardless of whether or not we trained it. I think people only care if one human player can beat another human player. In the spirit of that, there's no reason to allow your amiibo to compete in a real tournament.

Side events in the shape of Amiibo-only battles are probably fine and I think that'd be a neat idea, but unless we're all terribly wrong about how amiibos work I really don't expect them to really have a chance.

 

[Mataata]

Alternatively, I'd love to see a sub-tournament where people battled their amiibos against each other. It'd be like Pokemon!

 

[allshort17]

Another note, Amiibo's should not be able to enter singles because they could be used for bracket rigging. Enter in enough Amiibo's so that you force the bracket to give you a bye while also letting your friends play against the Amiibo's? How about no?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I feel as though Amiibos would kill the point of the tournament somewhat as well. Tournaments are a test of the player's skill, strategy, and ability to think and react quickly. Amiibos don't accurately reflect a player's skill. If you're using an Amiibo, none of that is being tested. No matter how much you trained your Amiibo, it's still not you fighting that battle. It's a CPU. An intelligent CPU, but still a CPU.

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

Small amiibo only tournaments can be cool.

 

[misterOWAIN33]

I would have to say doubles ONLY, situation described in the OP ONLY.
Unless if each duo was human-amiibo.

 

[Khao]

I would personally love to see a Player+Amiibo vs Player+Amiibo doubles tournament. Like, not just pitting Amiibos against eachother, or using them to replace players every now and then, but specifically doing a tournament where every player fights alongside their amiibo as a team.

Sorry but no, Amiibo's will most likely never be legal. Because you can 'feed' them equipment to improve stats how are TO suppose to enforce the rules and make sure your Amiibo aren't enhanced? Also who's to say a level 50 Amiibo would have the same stats as the regular character, it's knock back or knock back resistance could be much higher then a normal character which would be unfair for your opponents.

So that's two major barriers

Solutions
1. Every TO would have to carry a list of normal stats of a level 50 Amiibo for each character to see if your is legal
2. Testing will need to be done to see where exactly if ever does the Amiibo stats surprise the regular characters

Amiibos with no equipment literally have a gray circle displaying "Balanced," you'd just have to look at that thing to tell whether or not they have been fed equipment, if it's anything other than balanced, they're out.

Secondly, it's very, very safe to expect the stats and equipment to be ignored when playing with customizations off, like, they'll have vanilla stats/equipment unless you specifically turn customizations on.

Why's that?

It's exactly how Miis work. You can assign custom movesets to Miis customize their appearance, but unless customizations are turned on, any stat bonus and equipment effects will be ignored, as if they had none. I think we can expect Amiibos to work in the same way.

 

[GroundZero996]

Alternatively, I'd love to see a sub-tournament where people battled their amiibos against each other. It'd be like Pokemon!

That might be interesting for an hour or so. And even though they are CPUs you do "train" them. We'll have to see how well you can teach them. Like, can you teach them down throw strings?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I feel like Amiibos should only be used in tournaments where only Amiibos fight and the people who own them could bet money on wh will win.