Shining Force II Mafia || Game Over! Who lived happily ever after?

[July]

@Raziek: Sorry, my bad.

 

[Raziek]

It's cool, shout-outs to Gova and John for keeping me informed and getting those removed in a timely manner.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I disagree about Rockin. They never said if they started out neighbors or if one person neighbored the other, but it was inferred that they started out neighbors because their characters were apparently lovers in the game or somehow connected in the game (not familiar with the flavor). Dietz's flip had nothing to do with him being a neighbor and I think it's still possible it could be a scum gambit.

I doubt this heavily, but ti's not outside that realm of possibility.

If you did consider him viable, did you consider his AtE post, lovers comment, appealing to the entire roaster for life. Why did none of that ring scum alarms to ya?

 

[July]

I doubt this heavily, but ti's not outside that realm of possibility.

If you did consider him viable, did you consider his AtE post, lovers comment, appealing to the entire roaster for life. Why did none of that ring scum alarms to ya?

I thought he was viable because his lynch would give connections and make sure toDay wasn't a repeat of yesterDay, but I didn't find him scummy and at the end of yesterDay I chose to vote to lynch scum (or who I thought was msot likely to flip scum) rather than for connections. The AtE and appealing to the entire roster for life seemed newb town to me and just an extension of his openness with his claim. It didn't ring alarms because I saw it all as more likely from newb town than newb scum.

Which lovers comment are you referring to that should have set off alarms?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I thought he was viable because his lynch would give connections and make sure toDay wasn't a repeat of yesterDay, but I didn't find him scummy and at the end of yesterDay I chose to vote to lynch scum (or who I thought was msot likely to flip scum) rather than for connections. The AtE and appealing to the entire roster for life seemed newb town to me and just an extension of his openness with his claim. It didn't ring alarms because I saw it all as more likely from newb town than newb scum.

Which lovers comment are you referring to that should have set off alarms?

He heavily suggested they were hidden lovers here:

... I should probably bold that. I don't want to be that one "oh yeah" guy who didn't say anything at the last minute if it ends up happening.

I have the suspicion me and Rockin are Lovers. I want everyone to at least be aware of this before the lynch goes through so it's not my fault for not thinking of bringing it up if we get a double ML

Rockin (Janet): http://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/pages/characters/janet.html
Me (Elric): http://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/pages/characters/elric.html

(sorry Rockin, this seemed too important to keep secret for so long at this point even though you didn't want me to out your nameclaim)

Now after that,

Tell me about your thought process of why you though Jay was newb town over newb scum with how he posted. What made it look like town over scum in those posts.

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

K J's being dumb and not being on AIM, so here's where my head's at. I'll pull up evidences and cases and whatnot come later in the weekdays/this weekend, but here's the jist:

First off, @Mod is there any information that you did not add to JDietz' flip? This is important, and not responding will make me assume that the answer is no. Please... respond. Actually, Vote: (READ WHAT I BOLDED MOD).

Here's what I got from the top of my head. Off of the Dietz flip, I'm really disliking Rockin, July, and Dark Horse in that order. Rockin had very little to say as far as pushing Dietz either against or for his lynch. I remember him saying that based off of their in QT interaction he said he thought he was pretty townie, but that's about it... There's something that he did, specifically, that made me think he looked pre' bad from a scumDietz flip that I'll have to find later on in life. Plus, it seems really... awkward... the way that he moved to the Dietz wagon. Sure, it's all good that he wanted the information, but his insistence and reiteration that he's looking for town's best interest and that Dietz will give much information was... really weird. And I don't think he gave an opinion as far as his alignment once after the change in lynch desire. He just... went with it.

July's switch was really freakin weird too. She was so gung-ho about wanting to lynch Ruy all Day, and I'm sure it would have gotten support had the people on that wagon stuck to it. But the way she gave up on that and... just moved to Dietz was another awkward situation. Basically just screw it, it's not worth my push. I'm definitely more cool with July if Red Ruy flips scum, but that's really coming off like a bus attempt at the same time. Sure, if she fought against it hard enough she could have gotten her Ruy lynch through. There WAS a decent probability. But from a scummy's POV, assuming she may or may not have known Ruy was scum, it'd look better to go for the Dietz lynch for information and JUST SO HAPPEN to have em flip scum... I'm less sold on this one than I am the Rockin suspicion but still pretty iffy on it.

Dark Horse is kinda weak SOLELY based off of the Dietz flip, but his play was still really raunchy before he disappeared, and I'm STILL convinced of that chainsaw defense thing that I saw on the first page, now moreso than before thanks to the scumDietz flip.

Oh, and Ruy still brushes me the wrong way. His play seemed too "what would a townie say" especially in the beginning and his reaction when Swiss made that "I'm informed that there's no millers in this game" gambit. Plus, his switch to Dietz was kinda rocky, but mostly the fact that his play was whatthetit still keeps me hangin on.

Ultimately, I'd be game to look into Rockin/July/Ruy/Dark Horse, but I'd rather talk things out with J and see what he's gotta say on what I have on the table before our slot really jumps to anything.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Rockin should be dealt with later, it's more likely the others are scum over him.

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

And if Dietz doesn't flip neighbor?

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

ESPECIALLY since Dietz didn't flip Elric?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Deitz not flipping either wouldn't be incriminating, though Rockin did comment on the lover stuff before he died let me check.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't like Rockin on a townDietz flip.

Btw what happened to this?

 

[July]

He heavily suggested they were hidden lovers here:



Now after that,

Tell me about your thought process of why you though Jay was newb town over newb scum with how he posted. What made it look like town over scum in those posts.

Kk, I actually liked that post :-/ I figured that not knowing exactly how lovers worked, the question of if neighbors could be secret lovers seemed genuine and like he was trying to help prevent town from what he would have known and I also saw as a mislynch.

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

Deitz not flipping either wouldn't be incriminating

So Dietz essentially lying about being neighbors with Rockin, and Rockin CONFIRMING that in thread (unless the mod's screwing with us, which is doubtful) isn't incriminating?

@Above Ruy post idk a Night of thinking things through? Lemme check.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Reread it, still not convinced, easily could have been Rocking with his character and Jay with his as a safe claim.

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

Yea pretty much just relooking over intent and whatnot regarding the switch to Dietz.

K that makes sense regarding the flavour... But what about him NOT FLIPPING NEIGHBOR WHEN ROCKIN CONFIRMED HIS NEIGHBORNESS WITH DIETZ... AT A POINT OF THE GAME WHERE PEOPLE WERE BACKING OFF OF DIETZ?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just because his role didn't say neighbor doesn't mean he wasn't.

I mean look at other games like Hentai mafia where the names means little to nothing with the roles.

 

[vanderzant]

Your forum moderator would like to remind you:



For god's sake, don't quote and respond to a post that breaks this rule, either. Come on now.

Carry on.

Thank you Raziek

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

Just because his role didn't say neighbor doesn't mean he wasn't.

I mean look at other games like Hentai mafia where the names means little to nothing with the roles.

...Wasn't Hentai Mafia experimental/*******ed?

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

The seven *'s is definitely supposed to be a word that rhymes with "mastered" and starts with a b, jfyi.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Kk, I actually liked that post :-/ I figured that not knowing exactly how lovers worked, the question of if neighbors could be secret lovers seemed genuine and like he was trying to help prevent town from what he would have known and I also saw as a mislynch.

What about Rockin saying he doubted they were lovers and even being ok with a Deitz lynch if he was wrong, dying with him.

Why was Deitz more believable than that?

~

Also speaking of believable, tell me why you didn't call out No Lynch on Bull****ting his claim to avoid a Deitz lynch.

You hinted that even if it was a gambit there was nothing wrong with it and how he claimed. I don't see why you would let that slide so easily.

 

[July]

July's switch was really freakin weird too. She was so gung-ho about wanting to lynch Ruy all Day, and I'm sure it would have gotten support had the people on that wagon stuck to it. But the way she gave up on that and... just moved to Dietz was another awkward situation. Basically just screw it, it's not worth my push. I'm definitely more cool with July if Red Ruy flips scum, but that's really coming off like a bus attempt at the same time. Sure, if she fought against it hard enough she could have gotten her Ruy lynch through. There WAS a decent probability. But from a scummy's POV, assuming she may or may not have known Ruy was scum, it'd look better to go for the Dietz lynch for information and JUST SO HAPPEN to have em flip scum... I'm less sold on this one than I am the Rockin suspicion but still pretty iffy on it.

Just want to say no to the bolded, it was absolutely a battle of scumminess v. connections/information for me, and Swiss was absolutely going to keep pushing Dietz toDay if he wasn't lynched yesterDay and the prospect of having the entire D1 repeat itself here D2 was definitely a consideration.

Your Rockin suspicion I agree with in general and I'd like to see the post you said would make him look bad on a Dietz scum flip (not right now but when you put up evidence and cases).

 

[vanderzant]

@Mod is there any information that you did not add to JDietz' flip? This is important, and not responding will make me assume that the answer is no. Please... respond.

I can confirm that all information in the flip post is strictly accurate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

...Wasn't Hentai Mafia experimental/*******ed?

Yes, but it's not the first game with roles not fitting the game perfectly as the name.

All I'm saying is, if Rocking is being put up for a lynch, it would be better to look at him for his play over trying to out think the mod.

It is possible that he lied about that, but looking at Deitz' role claim makes no sense. And even then, why would Rockin follow along with that knowing Deitz wouldn't flip neighbor? I really don't think he would.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just want to say no to the bolded, it was absolutely a battle of scumminess v. connections/information for me, and Swiss was absolutely going to keep pushing Dietz toDay if he wasn't lynched yesterDay and the prospect of having the entire D1 repeat itself here D2 was definitely a consideration.

Your Rockin suspicion I agree with in general and I'd like to see the post you said would make him look bad on a Dietz scum flip (not right now but when you put up evidence and cases).

This again makes me question why you didn't bother with Deitz first if Ryker and Swiss both openly said they would go for me if he flipped town.

 

[vanderzant]

With 10 Alive it takes 6 to lynch!

Voting (1):
July (1): Red Ryu

Not Voting (9):
Bleck Mang
dabuz
July
Rockin
Dark Horse
Swiss
Orboknown
felipe_9595
Ryker

 

[July]

What about Rockin saying he doubted they were lovers and even being ok with a Deitz lynch if he was wrong, dying with him.

Why was Deitz more believable than that?

~

Also speaking of believable, tell me why you didn't call out No Lynch on Bull****ting his claim to avoid a Deitz lynch.

You hinted that even if it was a gambit there was nothing wrong with it and how he claimed. I don't see why you would let that slide so easily.

Because Rockin is experienced and knows that neighbors turning out to be secret lovers doesn't happen or hasn't happened (yet). Dietz may have had a wrong idea about the game/possible mechanics but I didn't think it was scummy, nor did I think he was more believable than Rockin. On the contrary, Rockin was more believable because obviously I've never seen neighbors flip secret lovers either, but Dietz concern about it seemed more genuine whereas Rockin saying he'd be willing to die with Dietz if he was wrong seems a little disingenuous, he clearly thought that they weren't secret lovers and thus his willingness to die if they were seems like false bravado in the face of a fake chance of death.


Because No Lynch bull****ting his claim was no different than what Swiss did to try and get a Dietz lynch, and i find both actions to have town intent. No Lynch posed a, what I at least saw as clearly fake, gambit to keep his town read alive and push a lynch on his scum pick. Similarly, Swiss pulled, what I at least saw as a clearly fake, gambit to push a lynch on his scum pick. Both did what they did to get a scum pick lynched yesterDay and try to get reactions from other players and influence players who believed the gambit to join them in their pov as well.

 

[July]

This again makes me question why you didn't bother with Deitz first if Ryker and Swiss both openly said they would go for me if he flipped town.

Because I still didn't think Dietz was scum...I would much prefer pushing someone I genuinely think is scummy rather than sheeping Swiss and Ryker all Day on someone who I don't particularly find scummy. What am I supposed to do in that situation, sit and twiddle my thumbs with my vote on Dietz while Ryker and Swiss push a case all Day that I don't particularly agree with? I didn't seriously start to weigh the value of a Dietz lynch until it became clear that the lynch pool was you or Dietz and I had to consider what would be gained out of each lynch and how each lynch option weighed in terms scumminess, connections, and progress going into toDay, but scumminess is a major factor and one I didn't see in Dietz as strongly as I saw it in you although his lynch had more gains in terms of connections.

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

It is possible that he lied about that, but looking at Deitz' role claim makes no sense. And even then, why would Rockin follow along with that knowing Deitz wouldn't flip neighbor? I really don't think he would.

DIETZ ORIGINALLY CLAIMED A NONVT ROLE, + A NEIGHBOR. He was obviously told to be vague as holy hell, and then dun goofed by himself. The fact of the matter is that had he kept that "just a neighbor" fiasco, he would not have brought anybody down with him had he been lynched (and this is all under the pretext that Dietz didn't come up with any of this on his own). But on his own (looking at the time stamps you could see that the moment he softclaimed to the moment he full roleclaimed was around the same time) he claimed neighbor with Rockin, probably thinking that it'd save his shiz, which it very well would have. But truth be told, the only thing we have to work with as far as that flip is that Dietz DIDN'T flip neighbor, mod confirmed, and that Dietz and Rockin claimed neighbors. The only reason for a scum that already flipped nonneighbor to say he was neighbors with somebody is so that they can confirm it and gain town points... Which Rockin tried to do...

 

[~Bleck Mang~]

^That quote is totally from Ruy and not Dietz.

 

[felipe_9595]

I want rocking to claim + name.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Well wow, didn't expect those flips. Not overly concerned about it though.

RR needs to go. Who else were those two pushing, Orbo/Dabuz?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

RRneeds to go.

Not really.

 

[Dabuz]

Bleck, where do you want to go today?

Dabuz, where is your head at now?

I'll fully re-read by Friday the latest, but here are my quick thoughts.

Rockin is the first person that comes to mind as someone to look at, going along with the neighbor claim while be scum-buddies is looking like a possibility. IIRC he didn't really place suspicion on Dietz or pressure him which is a red flag because he "claimed" to be Diet'z neighbor. Then again, would Dietz be so foolish as to leave that giant arrow pointing to another scum-buddy?

July and Black Mang both need to be re-evaluated since I don't remember either being involved in D1 Dietz stuff. There are good points being made against July, but I don't have any opinion ATM.

Orbo has to become active, right now his slot counts as non-existent to me.

Same can be said of Felipe.

Swiss is looking good to me because he pushed very hard for Dietz death since early Day.

I need to look at NL's interactions, him being town after Dietz flipped scum surprises me because NL VERY strongly defended Dietz and he fake-claimed.

DH, RR, and Ryker aren't striking me as suspects right now.



I think we have an indie or Vig killing role this game, reasons below:

Kuz was a kill I would expect mafia to make, he didn't say much so his death doesn't give town much. Kuz, Orbo, and myself would have the least helpful deaths all around.

NL is NOT a kill I would expect mafia to make, in fact, I think mafia would want to keep NL alive. With Dietz flipping scum, I don't doubt that everyone felt very suspicious of NL's alignment, meaning he would be a good town distraction for today, at the very least town would lose trust in NL, making him less of a threat to mafia. Obviously NL's read on Dietz was very wrong, so I think mafia wouldn't be particularly worried about NL correctly guessing alignments. NL's death leaves a lot of connections because he has about 25% of the posts in this thread, Mafia shouldn't want to kill someone who can be so useful in death.

I do also realize the flip side of this is that with NL gone, we lose our most active poster, which plays favorably for mafia. Also, Soup and Zen are generally skilled players anyway who might threaten mafia.

The final thing is that mafia having 2 kills in a 13 man setup seems ridiculous unless a kill is one-shot.

RR, what do you think about Indy/ Vig possibility?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really don't see why people are delving into the WIFOM of that not neighbor part, just let it go.

 

[Dabuz]

I really don't see why people are delving into the WIFOM of that not neighbor part, just let it go.

That's not something to let go, its really really suspicious. I'm not condemning him because I still need to figure out his play.


BTW, any idea what ninja does? The role is normally un-trackable and un-watchable, but IDK if that is relevant for this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

RR, what do you think about Indy/ Vig possibility?

Both are possible, leaning on vig atm since killing since neither Kuz or NL wasn't really beneficial to scum over keeping them around for a ML or pressure.

Could also be SK looking for a safe kill but with a potential Voteblocker/Roleblocker I find it harder to think a SK is running around, though the VB being one shot is possible since no one has been voteblocked today.

Still lets look at potential picks with you and me.

You think the flip of not neighbor matters?

 

[July]

I really don't see why people are delving into the WIFOM of that not neighbor part, just let it go.

Because it's an important connection to confirmed scum that we cannot confirm as a real role and thus could be a scum gambit. Also, Rockin's opinion on Dietz was strange...he switched from a weak town read on him to a willingness to kill him, as you pointed out, even if it cost him his own life.

I'd like to hear more from Rockin toDay, especially because I feel like the nature of the neighboring is strange. I want to know whether they started out neighbors or if one person neighbored the other, and if its the second scenario, who neighbored who.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's not something to let go, its really really suspicious. I'm not condemning him because I still need to figure out his play.


BTW, any idea what ninja does? The role is normally un-trackable and un-watchable, but IDK if that is relevant for this game.

Ninja isn't seen by a watcher or tracker/reporter, etc. Means certain roles are present in the game but it's not something to delve into, it's not important.

Go ahead and look at his play, I'm doing the same on my reread but still I would rather not put Deitz flip as being suspicious, at least until I hear more about what they did talk about in the QT from Rockin.

 

[Dabuz]

Both are possible, leaning on vig atm since killing since neither Kuz or NL wasn't really beneficial to scum over keeping them around for a ML or pressure.

Could also be SK looking for a safe kill but with a potential Voteblocker/Roleblocker I find it harder to think a SK is running around, though the VB being one shot is possible since no one has been voteblocked today.

Still lets look at potential picks with you and me.

You think the flip of not neighbor matters?

Yeah, Vig seems more likely to me as well.

Wow, I didn't even realize the lack of a VB. I don't think its one-shot, why use a one-shot VB on N0? More likely the VBer was RBed or didn't want to use his ability. Or Ninja mafia can VB.

Not neighbor matters, did Dietz claim neighbor as part of his role name? If not, I still can't see neighbor ability fitting into a "Ninja" role.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hi Rockin, whats up?