Shieldstun

[Revven]

-Shield stun is ridiculous. Lucas can literally LOCK someone in their shield with nair spam and break their shield(NL did it yesterday and said the opponent couldn't move). Shadowlink suggested that the amount of shieldstun be relative to the amount of knockback or damage on the move if possible. If not that, then maybe allow rolling during shieldstun so that Lucas can't lock people in their shields..

So... how much lower should we go?

I happen to think weak hits shouldn't be as high as they are. Strong attacks seem to be fine AFAIK but, what do you guys think Lucas' Nair is? A bunch of weak hits? In any case, we need to lower shieldstun some, not just the little amount we did before. Right now it is at:

10/20/5

How much lower? If we decide to add lag to shield drop, we could potentially lower shieldstun a bit more.

Thoughts?

 

[kupo15]

Moar shield drop lag please!

I forget, but doesn't the "5" part tailor mainly to weak hits? If so, lets try making that a 3

 

[Revven]

Moar shield drop lag please!

I forget, but doesn't the "5" part tailor mainly to weak hits? If so, lets try making that a 3

3 sounds like a good try.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ya, shieldstun is nuts against jabs. I fought my friends Peach a few times last night and her jab is soooo good. If what Kupo said is true, then I say try 4 first, smaller changes are my thing.

 

[leafgreen386]

Great job increasing the shieldstun guys! At least gog didn't want to increase it as much as the rest of you did.

The shieldstun format is in x/y/z, where (xs + y) / z is the formula the game is using, and s is the original shieldstun. The first number is the multiplier, the second the addition, and the third the divider. So 10/20/5 = 2/4/1, or 2x the standard stun plus 4 frames.

I say we try dropping it to 2/2/1 and see how that goes. Hopefully these moves won't lock you in your shield anymore if we drop their shieldstun by a couple frames.

 

[goodoldganon]

Great job increasing the shieldstun guys! At least gog didn't want to increase it as much as the rest of you did.

The shieldstun format is in x/y/z, where (xs + y) / z is the formula the game is using, and s is the original shieldstun. The first number is the multiplier, the second the addition, and the third the divider. So 10/20/5 = 2/4/1, or 2x the standard stun plus 4 frames.

I say we try dropping it to 2/2/1 and see how that goes. Hopefully these moves won't lock you in your shield anymore if we drop their shieldstun by a couple frames.

Lolz we got owned guys.

 

[Team Giza]

Nerf Lucas' nair.

 

[Revven]

Sooooo... are we gonna add some shield lag? How many frames did Melee have for its shield drop? I think I heard 9? Probably heard wrong.

 

[kupo15]

Yes and I made a post somewhere about it. We can't use the frame speed mod though. You can cancel the animation at the same time as if you didn't do anything to it

 

[Revven]

Yes and I made a post somewhere about it. We can't use the frame speed mod though. You can cancel the animation at the same time as if you didn't do anything to it

We need a new code then.

 

[kupo15]

we do. But we need to know why it doesn't work first

 

[Alopex]

Whoa whoa whoa... have you guys already forgotten how the shieldstun code works? Lordy, allow me to spearhead this again.

The 5 is just the divider in the formula. It allows you to use decimal values that you can't otherwise use in hex.

Equation: (Old shield stun*X+Z)/Y=new shield stun

The first value, X, is the multiplier, affecting strong hits more than weak hits. (Currently 10)
The second value, Z, is the additive, affecting the weak hits more than the strong hits. (Currently 20)

If you wanted to get precise and use a multiplier and additive of 1.8 and 4.5 respectively, you wouldn't be able to do so without the third value, Y. (Currently 5)

In fact, I don't know why you guys are using 10/20/5, because that's the EXACT same as just using 2/4/1 for the values, and 2/4/1 notation is more directly accurate.

Reduce the 5 to 3, and you'll get 10/20/3, which will be the same as:

3.33/6.66/1

In case you haven't noticed, that'll be an INCREASE in shieldstun across the board.


Shieldstun and I have a lot of history. We're great pals. If you want to reduce the shieldstun on weak hits (Jabs, Lucas Nair), change the overall value of Z (as I said, currently 4).
If you want it to be less than 4 but not as low as 3, you're going to have to use the divider to get the overall value (aka, post-division) to be any desired non-whole number like 3.5.

Quite frankly, though, if Lucas's Nair is locking people, it's because his ALR is too low. I believe I've mentioned this before: He should be at 45%.

 

[kupo15]

doesn't lucas' nair AC?

 

[Team Giza]

Quite frankly, though, if Lucas's Nair is locking people, it's because his ALR is too low. I believe I've mentioned this before: He should be at 45%.

At least on the Nair. And maybe make the final hit do a bit less knockback since its the reason why it keeps them locked in it.

 

[Revven]

Whoa whoa whoa... have you guys already forgotten how the shieldstun code works? Lordy, allow me to spearhead this again.

The 5 is just the divider in the formula. It allows you to use decimal values that you can't otherwise use in hex.

Equation: (Old shield stun*X+Z)/Y=new shield stun

The first value, X, is the multiplier, affecting strong hits more than weak hits. (Currently 10)
The second value, Z, is the additive, affecting the weak hits more than the strong hits. (Currently 20)

If you wanted to get precise and use a multiplier and additive of 1.8 and 4.5 respectively, you wouldn't be able to do so without the third value, Y. (Currently 5)

In fact, I don't know why you guys are using 10/20/5, because that's the EXACT same as just using 2/4/1 for the values, and 2/4/1 notation is more directly accurate.

Reduce the 5 to 3, and you'll get 10/20/3, which will be the same as:

3.33/6.66/1

In case you haven't noticed, that'll be an INCREASE in shieldstun across the board.


Shieldstun and I have a lot of history. We're great pals. If you want to reduce the shieldstun on weak hits (Jabs, Lucas Nair), change the overall value of Z (as I said, currently 4).
If you want it to be less than 4 but not as low as 3, you're going to have to use the divider to get the overall value (aka, post-division) to be any desired non-whole number like 3.5.

Quite frankly, though, if Lucas's Nair is locking people, it's because his ALR is too low. I believe I've mentioned this before: He should be at 45%.

leaf already fixed it for us, we have decreased it in the test set. Also, increase Lucas's ALR won't fix Nair as Nair ACs (autocancels).

doesn't lucas' nair AC?

Yes, yes it does.

At least on the Nair.

Giza, increasing his ALR won't solve the Nair locking as his Nair ACs and quite easily at that.

 

[Alopex]

leaf already fixed it for us, we have decreased it in the test set.

You guys actually went straight down to 2/2/1? Jabs like ZSS's and Sheik are, from memory, very much shield-grabbable at this value. 4 to 2 is a big drop though it may not seem like it. The point of shieldstun testing is to do so meticulously so that you find the highest possible value that removes whatever is broken, because what low enough to prevent one jab from locking is too low to prevent another grab from being shieldgrabbed.

So, let's get specific:
- Lucas' Nair locks. That's done by the last hit of the move, which is likely to be better controlled by the multiplier since it's fairly strong.

- What jabs cause locks? Peach's? Who else? All these would be affected more by the additive.

With that, a more optimal starting point than 2/2/1 would be 1.8/3.5/1, or 18/35/10.

Test all the problematic moves and see what adjustments need to be made. Don't just drop down quickly like that.

 

[shanus]

I am pretty sure ZSS jab and sheik are both safe on shield still. 1 frame jabs are win!

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd rather go for as high a shieldstun value as possible. I think 18/35/10 would be a nice place to start.

Things to test for shieldlocking would be most rapid hit moves really (pit's side B, rapid jabs, multihit aerials, ect, ect). Being safe on block is one thing. Locking in shield is over the top.

 

[Revven]

Whatever people want to do and thinks will stop locks like Peach jab and Lucas Nair. I won't be able to play with the set with any humans until tomorrow so, if you want me to try 18/35/10 throw it into the set and I'll give feedback.

 

[Team Giza]

Giza, increasing his ALR won't solve the Nair locking as his Nair ACs and quite easily at that.

That won't matter actually. The issue here is that Lucas is able to land right after the last hitbox hits jump again do it and fast fall right as the last hitbox is out. It has to be done quick in order for it to actually work. I can't imagine the frame opening for it being big. If we make it so that his landing lag on the nair was longer and/or make the last hit a bit weaker it would be impossible to do a repeating shieldlock.

I really don't want to drop shieldstun too much lower. Frankly I think its pretty low already.

 

[Yeroc]

Shanus, the first jab is always safe, but in between jabs is not.