Shields in Smash 4

[dragontamer]

I'm fairly certain that different characters have differing amounts of shield.

Bowser's shield is bigger than most character's, as is Shulk's shield-form.

 

[Pyr]

The above is taken from Smashpedia. I am very confident that the 70% damage is gone, as it seems like shields can only take 50%. Is the rest of this still the same as it was in Brawl?

Also, do we know when shields deplete/recover/stay the same? For example, I think shield health stays the same when in the perfect frame window or in shield stun, while recovering when standing. However, does shield health recover while rolling/spot dodging? What about shield dropping?

It has to be different. I mean, Ganon's up tilt is an insta-shield kill on most the cast if it's not PSed.

 

[Lavani]

It has to be different. I mean, Ganon's up tilt is an insta-shield kill on most the cast if it's not PSed.

Ganondorf's utilt has a really high shield damage value. It isn't just popping them through raw power, it has a modifier similar to moves such as Marth's neutralB and DK's sideB that allows it to shatter shields on contact.

 

[Pyr]

Ganondorf's utilt has a really high shield damage value. It isn't just popping them through raw power, it has a modifier similar to moves such as Marth's neutralB and DK's sideB that allows it to shatter shields on contact.

Ah. I see. I guess I gotta do a bit more research or learn to read better. =p

 

[B.A.M.]

Seems most people are still kind of confused about the shield. Although this is an old thread, the majority of people still have the notion that shield is impervious to pokes while thats not exactly the case. There are some moves that are safe on shield. These moves primarily garner safety by being out of range of shields quickest punishment options. For example, although you can punish attacks with aerials OoS, jump squats themselves take particular amount of frames ( minimum being 5 I believe) to occur. From there an aerial can be activated. this is important because the fastest aerials clock in at frame 3, meaning that you must use an attack that leaves you - 8 on block to be hit. Now here is where the beauty lies; (its something done in traditional fighters, however our movement control allows for far more control) there are always 2 factors present in a proper punish:

1) sufficient frame advantage

2) the capacity to reach the opponents hurtbox

Now the last one is especially important, because although characters may potentially have a frame 3 aerial most frame 3 aerials DONT fulfill the range requirement to become an active punish. This means at particular spacings, they might as well not exist. This changes a ton of things, some characters have 5 frame fairs and some have closer to 10 frame fairs. What does this mean? it means a character has to be -10 or - 15 or more to be hit. HOWEVER thats only accounting horizontal range( thats assuming all fairs would reach, which is clearly not the case; vertical range is obviously important as well. Certain pokes ( yes they exist) also lower a character vertical hurtbox exponentially removing the usage of other punishes as well. See the trend? You cant just look at frame data in itself; you have to apply to actual situations as there are a myriad of other factors that determine what is punishable or not. Case and point, Sheik's fair. People always get annoyed on how that move is safe on block and its not fair ( pun oh so intended). However, any quick testing would tell you otherwise; it is capable of being shield grabbed. So what gives? its because there are ways of minimizing frame disadvantage and avoid punishments through different spacings. If a sheik does fair as shes about to land she will experience the same lag as always, if your shield gets hit you will still suffer the same lag as always. But the shorter the gap between her landing, and her making contact with your shield the smaller the frame disadvantage is. Now fair may be true punished by grab, but if she is outside of grab range yet still making contact with your shield then all of a sudden you are forced (more often than not) to move to your next tier of punishes. Most of those moves will not punish shiek's fair, in fact performing most of those "punishes" would actually put shiek at a frame advantage. This is why you will see people try something OoS vs a competent sheik and just get jabbed> stuff. These are what we call frame traps.


So we dont have true block strings in this game as far as I am aware of ( most smash characters in the entire series excluding 64 cant do so). However a ton of shield pressure in Smash has come from frame traps. Ironically as frame traps became more important in the series ( Brawl and Smash 4), people forgot about them even moreso. These are key for dealing with safe defensive options in any fighter ( frame traps vs throw tech OS anyone?). This game doesnt need any more shield stun imo, as many characters would get access to a ton of silly shield pressure options. Currently shield pressure exist; just hasnt be explored nearly enough. Which is probably going to be Ep1 of my Butter Your Bread series that I am working on.









Hmmmm now that I think about it.................I should probably post this in there LOLOLOLOL

 

[Muro]

minimum shielding time never applies if your shield gets hit by anything.

what about oos options like rolling spot dodges and jumps?

 

[Lavani]

what about oos options like rolling spot dodges and jumps?

Those aren't restricted by minimum shield time either.

 

[ZHMT]

Sheiks fair hits frame 5 and autocancels on 11. There are few moves in this game with autocancel windows so soon after a moves startup. Its not really fair imo to use the best case scenario in your example. Dont get me wrong, your post will likely be informative to people but realistically most moves arent safe on shield and can be punished. Sheik fair does like 2 or 3 frames of shield stun. I dont see how anyone can say its enough.

This doesnt take into account the ease of powershielding either.

Out of shield options as a whole are too strong due to low shield stun. If the shield drop time was increased though it wouldnt be as large an issue. The fact is that hitting a shield doesnt reduce your opponents options enough to encourage offensive play. 7 frames to drop shield is tiny.

Characters jabs, yes their jabs, on average are disadvantageous after shield drop. The move.type widely considered low risk and low reward, if blocked, puts you at a disadvantage. The only reason they arent awful is because there is a mixup if you will continue the jab combo or not, which again is disadvantageous.

The burden should be on the defender in a fighting game if said game wants to encourage movement and offense. It shouldnt be like ssb64 where the risk is too large to even whiff and itll lead to very campy games. You need a good balance of offensive and defensive options which we definitely dont have in ssb4. The shield wouldnt be an issue if attacks had better IASA frames, aerials didnt have excessive landing lag, and shields had less health as well as recharged slower. We have the formula for a very random and campy game.

Oh also I dont believe characters would have dumb stuff if shields were weaker because you can jump, roll two directions, spot dodge, up b and up smash, as well as grab out of shield bypassing shield drop. Even if we added 7 frames of shield stun to everything, the shield push will likely prevent shield break combos.

 

[LightLV]

I think what they did to shield was even sillier than what they did to rolls. If they'd fix roll speed, restore shieldstun / push values, and actually allow shields to weaken, smash 4 would have a much more interesting offensive game.

Of course, campy/random is kind of what they were going for. As a compromise, at the very least i'd be happy if shields restored alot slower.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Shieldstun is a very finicky difficult thing to adjust properly. They could change it, no complaints, but I always thought it was interesting that this game had the least amount of it.

Then I thought about why that happened, and I looked at things like 8 player smash in the back of my mind. I feel like that PARTIALLY contributed to there being less of it.

 

[Ffamran]

Was there actually ever a comparison between shield recharge, shield health, roll speed, etc. with the past games? I thought it was debunked that rolls are the same as they were in past games.

 

[ZHMT]

Rolls on average have about 2 or 3 less frames of cooldown vs Brawls rolls. (Brawls were already too good)

 

[Muro]

Rolls on average have about 2 or 3 less frames of cooldown vs Brawls rolls. (Brawls were already too good)

how about invulnerability frames?

 

[teluoborg]

I'm fairly certain that different characters have differing amounts of shield.

Bowser's shield is bigger than most character's, as is Shulk's shield-form.

In Brawl all shields had the same health even though they had different sizes. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same in 4.

Also 4 having less shieldstun than Brawl is really surprising, but I guess it's compensated by the reduced ability to buffer.

Tge forced shield lag will not be a big thing imo, once people start to abuse it with empty jumps and grabs the shielders will learn to OOS on reaction. It's still very good to know.

 

[Meru.]

How exactly is shield stun calculated?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Rolls on average have about 2 or 3 less frames of cooldown vs Brawls rolls. (Brawls were already too good)

No they weren't, unless your name was Lucario or Metaknight,

Even then they were easily punishable there.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I'm fairly certain that different characters have differing amounts of shield.

Bowser's shield is bigger than most character's, as is Shulk's shield-form.

Afaik all shields have 50% HP, regardless of size. Monado Shield either reduces the damage Shulk's shield takes or increases its max HP, I'm not really sure (though it does passively deplete more slowly, so... idk).

How exactly is shield stun calculated?

Melee and Brawl have formulae

Melee
-Shieldstun = (damage+4.45)/2.235

Brawl
-Shieldstun = Floor[(damage)/3]

I guess for Smash 4 we could try counting frames of shieldstun for different damage outputs and try and pull something from that but idk how accurate that would be.

 

[ZHMT]

No they weren't, unless your name was Lucario or Metaknight,

Even then they were easily punishable there.

Yes they were. Having an evasive option that sends you behind your opponent shouldnt net you frame advantage. Period.

Attacks arent generally good enough to beat the rolls we were given in the past 2 games. Especially factoring in human reaction time. With the landing lag in this game and the longer duration on moves its even worse.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes they were. Having an evasive option that sends you behind your opponent shouldnt net you frame advantage. Period.

Attacks arent generally good enough to beat the rolls we were given in the past 2 games. Especially factoring in human reaction time. With the landing lag in this game and the longer duration on moves its even worse.

You didn't at Brawl.

I've been punished for rolling behind someone. I've punished people for the same and while it is harder here, brawls were no where near as good as they are here.

 

[Thor]

Yes they were. Having an evasive option that sends you behind your opponent shouldnt net you frame advantage. Period.

We need Melee Fox usmash to be less laggy, since if I roll behind an obvious usmash I get frame advantage.

Sakurai fix plz.

Edit: Also grab is really really really good.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah I don't understand what you mean @ ZHMT , frame advantage on what?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I think he means that in general, using a roll to avoid an attack and end up behind your attacker will net you frame advantage because your roll's endlag is lower than the endlag on the attack you were avoiding.

Though let's be real here, most of the time rolling behind attacks for the punish is something that only happens in Smash reveal trailers. MOST of the time people will read a roll and punish YOU with a grab, or a smash, or even just an aerial crossup.

 

[dragontamer]

Though let's be real here, most of the time rolling behind attacks for the punish is something that only happens in Smash reveal trailers. MOST of the time people will read a roll and punish YOU with a grab, or a smash, or even just an aerial crossup.

Read?

I walk up to "footsie" distance. Then opponents roll into me. If I'm playing a quick character (Mario), then DSmash is fast enough to react to rolls. If I'm playing a slower character (PacMan has 18f smashes...), then tilts and grabs (even slow 12frame grabs) are fast enough to punish on reaction.

Different opponents have different speeds however, so it takes a good bit of practice to punish opponent's rolls on reaction. But once you practice your reaction and train for it, roll punishing on reaction is a deadly skill to have.

Afaik all shields have 50% HP, regardless of size. Monado Shield either reduces the damage Shulk's shield takes or increases its max HP, I'm not really sure (though it does passively deplete more slowly, so... idk).

Thanks for the info. I forgot I even posted that months ago! Shulk's shield form is definitely "different" compared to everyone's.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well yeah, read... like for example, sometimes I will read a roll with Villager and either turnaround DSmash or charge it so that the second hit catches them when they lose their intan. Another time I was playing as Sheik and I read a Samus roll so I FSmashed in the direction they were rolling to for the KO.

But yeah, I know what you mean about walking up into that zone where you make people antsy and they get more likely to roll into you. Always satisfying having them roll literally right into your arms.

 

[dragontamer]

Well yeah, read... like for example, sometimes I will read a roll with Villager and either turnaround DSmash or charge it so that the second hit catches them when they lose their intan. Another time I was playing as Sheik and I read a Samus roll so I FSmashed in the direction they were rolling to for the KO.

But yeah, I know what you mean about walking up into that zone where you make people antsy and they get more likely to roll into you. Always satisfying having them roll literally right into your arms.

Yeah, the slower characters need to "read" those rolls if you're going for the KO.

I guess I have two modes when I'm playing Smash. I'm either "reading", and trying hard with slow, powerful attacks.

On the one hand, there are certain attacks that I know I have the reaction-speed to work with, and don't require any commitment. I have trust in my ability to react to the opponent. Power-shield if they attack me with a slow-attack (typically: the long-range attacks are slower: projectiles, Mario's or Pikachu's FSmash)... grab if they shield, or Tilt / Turn-around Jab if they roll.

On the other hand: the truly rewarding attacks: FSmash, DSmash... are so slow for my character that I can't roll punish on reaction. But a good read is still worth the risk many times.

Then come characters like Mario, Zelda (5f DSmashes), or Marth / Lucina / Pit / Dark Pit / Samus (10f FSmash) who are so fast that they can straight up react to rolls. Best of both worlds in many respects...

 

[Meru.]

Melee
-Shieldstun = (damage+4.45)/2.235

Brawl
-Shieldstun = Floor[(damage)/3]

I guess for Smash 4 we could try counting frames of shieldstun for different damage outputs and try and pull something from that but idk how accurate that would be.

That would be great. At least it's better than nothing. Since we now know the ending lag of most moves, advantage of shield feels like the only big thing missing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only reason Rolls became more prominent in Brawl and Smash 4 is because there isn't an easy option to keep yourself as noncommittal as possible while moving to retain your options, wavedashing.

Why move with a roll when I can just Wavedash and keep all of my options still open?

Not to say rolling isn't enitrely useless but this is why I see a lot of Melee players complain about rolls in Smash 4, and with Lucario in Brawl. Because it's not something they are used to with the invisibility.

Punishing a roll is still simple, harder than it was in Brawl for some aspects but easier in others. Some characters are better at punishing them, hi Peach Dsmash, some kinda suck at it hard, Pacman.

~

As for shields and calculating, that's going to be a little tricky but doable if you can do it frame by frame, but making a formula for it is far from easy.

 

[dragontamer]

Punishing a roll is still simple, harder than it was in Brawl for some aspects but easier in others. Some characters are better at punishing them, hi Peach Dsmash, some kinda suck at it hard, Pacman.

FTilt for 8% dmg is an amazing roll punish. What are you talking about? But seriously though, Trampoline is an extremely safe roll punish. Its one of the few attacks that even "goes through" the intangibility of rolls. Its very easy to do on reaction, and can be done even OOS.

Its not very rewarding, but due to its extreme simplicity as well as its reliability, I can't say that PacMan "sucks it hard". It ain't no breakdancing Mario (or USmash Mario)... but its solid damage.

 

[LightLV]

The only reason Rolls became more prominent in Brawl and Smash 4 is because there isn't an easy option to keep yourself as noncommittal as possible while moving to retain your options, wavedashing.

Why move with a roll when I can just Wavedash and keep all of my options still open?

Not to say rolling isn't enitrely useless but this is why I see a lot of Melee players complain about rolls in Smash 4, and with Lucario in Brawl. Because it's not something they are used to with the invisibility.

Wavedash was not a roll replacement. Rolling just wasn't able to cross the length of the stage faster than most characters can dash, like it does now. To assume Brawl and Smash 4 balanced every movement option around Wavedash (which didn't exist after melee) is kind of odd.

Melee (and Brawl...and smash4) players complain about rolls in Smash 4 because they are faster and safer than most movement options you have in the game. The fact you can "hard read" them is irrelevant, that weakness has always existed with rolls, and it's now harder than ever to capitalize on.

Punishing a roll is still simple, harder than it was in Brawl for some aspects but easier in others. Some characters are better at punishing them, hi Peach Dsmash, some kinda suck at it hard, Pacman.

It's not easier in any way to punish a roll, so what context are you referring to where they're easier? Dsmashes have been designed for roll punishing since Smash64, as well as grabs...and in the case of grabs, the reward for getting one has never been lower. You cannot chaingrab anymore and grabs will lose a trade with any hitbox...

Rolling got buffed, shielding got buffed, all punishment options got nerfed, some more heavily than others. Thats why people complan about rolls. It takes significantly more effort to punish one than to throw one out.

Shieldstun is a very finicky difficult thing to adjust properly. They could change it, no complaints, but I always thought it was interesting that this game had the least amount of it.

Then I thought about why that happened, and I looked at things like 8 player smash in the back of my mind. I feel like that PARTIALLY contributed to there being less of it.

You know, i don't think it's all that finicky to balance around. The formula they used in the past has Shieldstun scale with the amount of damage that particular attack would deal. And since more powerful strikes are usually very slow in smash bros, it provides a more fair dynamic to attacking.

Take Ike, or Bowser for instance. If you shield one of their F-smashes, I think it's completely fair for the move to provide enough shieldstun (and/or shieldpush) for them to be safe on block. Disadvantagous, perhaps, but punishable? No, that isn't necessary. Those moves have a slow startup and long recovery, and are supposed to be powerful. If it wiffs, gets sidestepped, or gets rolled, it's a guaranteed punish, off reaction alone. But if the move hits you in any way, I think it's completely fair for the attacker to be safe.

The 64 formula allowed for shieldbreak combos off fast moves, and Melee worked around that by simply lowering the value. It would probably be better for them to add another value to the formula to micromanage the amount of shieldstun/shieldpush moves would have, so some moves could definitely be safe or unsafe on block regardless of their damage, for balance.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

That would definitely be a step in the right direction. There are already modifiers for bonus shield damage, bonus hitlag, etc. A modifier for bonus shieldstun doesn't seem too far fetched.

 

[ZHMT]

I think he means that in general, using a roll to avoid an attack and end up behind your attacker will net you frame advantage because your roll's endlag is lower than the endlag on the attack you were avoiding.

Though let's be real here, most of the time rolling behind attacks for the punish is something that only happens in Smash reveal trailers. MOST of the time people will read a roll and punish YOU with a grab, or a smash, or even just an aerial crossup.

Yes but theres more to it. Also I never said that rolls are unpunishable.

The issue with rolls is the threat of it. Its a potent option which often nets massive frame advantage vs other options like hitting a shield. Reading a roll means you generally have changed something in your game to compensate. Usually its not attacking in situations where a roll would beat you. This helps promote slower and campier play.

Just imagine if you couldnt roll towards an opponent at all and imagine how much more pressure you would be able to deal when they are at the edge of the stage.

Heres some examples, DKs ftilt and utilt last about 37 to 38 frames last I checked and Lucarios jab lasts about 30.

I certainly hope that people arent alright with the possibility of someone with great reaction time which is more common at tournament level to be able to roll behind DKs ftilt or utilt on reaction and be advantageous? Because thats what exists. Also I can do it so dont say its impossible. I know that his tilts are laggy, however most moves have too much end lag in this game relative to the same games evasive options.

Point is, the games data allows dumb stuff. Lets buff rolls and make Marths dtilt trap wayy worse by changing its IASA frames, great idea =/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wavedash was not a roll replacement. Rolling just wasn't able to cross the length of the stage faster than most characters can dash, like it does now. To assume Brawl and Smash 4 balanced every movement option around Wavedash (which didn't exist after melee) is kind of odd.

Melee (and Brawl...and smash4) players complain about rolls in Smash 4 because they are faster and safer than most movement options you have in the game. The fact you can "hard read" them is irrelevant, that weakness has always existed with rolls, and it's now harder than ever to capitalize on.



It's not easier in any way to punish a roll, so what context are you referring to where they're easier? Dsmashes have been designed for roll punishing since Smash64, as well as grabs...and in the case of grabs, the reward for getting one has never been lower. You cannot chaingrab anymore and grabs will lose a trade with any hitbox...

Rolling got buffed, shielding got buffed, all punishment options got nerfed, some more heavily than others. Thats why people complan about rolls. It takes significantly more effort to punish one than to throw one out.




You know, i don't think it's all that finicky to balance around. The formula they used in the past has Shieldstun scale with the amount of damage that particular attack would deal. And since more powerful strikes are usually very slow in smash bros, it provides a more fair dynamic to attacking.

Take Ike, or Bowser for instance. If you shield one of their F-smashes, I think it's completely fair for the move to provide enough shieldstun (and/or shieldpush) for them to be safe on block. Disadvantagous, perhaps, but punishable? No, that isn't necessary. Those moves have a slow startup and long recovery, and are supposed to be powerful. If it wiffs, gets sidestepped, or gets rolled, it's a guaranteed punish, off reaction alone. But if the move hits you in any way, I think it's completely fair for the attacker to be safe.

The 64 formula allowed for shieldbreak combos off fast moves, and Melee worked around that by simply lowering the value. It would probably be better for them to add another value to the formula to micromanage the amount of shieldstun/shieldpush moves would have, so some moves could definitely be safe or unsafe on block regardless of their damage, for balance.

In many ways it did. Why roll when I can keep my options more open with a wavedash? I only see a person trying to use roll for the invincibility and knowing it will be used to punish something, though unlikely given how it's better to just outspace with a wavedash since you retain your options with no real dedication to the action to the degree a roll would.

I didn't assume future games did, I doubt any smash game was really balanced around a characters ability to wavedash, maybe PM as well but even then I'm not as certain there.

If people are complaining about rolls, most really don't take time or action to try and learn what to do and what not to do in those situations. That is at least what I have learned on these boards. I'd be far more interested in helping people learn how to deal with them rather than cry for nerfs like this thread and others have.

Are they overpowered? eh...not really, they don't turn into the best option and a lost of the risks with doing a roll are still there. It is something to get used to and learn, rolls are far stronger in this game, but using it as a main source of punishment and power is how you will lose easily.

Grab's can result in death in this game at higher percent, you still put your opponent in a unfavorable position. Yes there are no chaingrabs, but who the hell wants that back? That unbalances and makes gameplay in many cases degenerative, even in Melee when you can DI them more than in Brawl.

Shielding buffed is not really something I can agree with, shield stun? maybe, players can still be more offensive than in Brawl. Shield health? no way, shields lose health and break way faster in this game.

Rolling is easier, yes but it's not nearly as hard are you and others make it out to be to punish one. It's easier to mess up a punish, I'll give you that. But the option is not unfavorable or unviable.

Yes but theres more to it. Also I never said that rolls are unpunishable.

The issue with rolls is the threat of it. Its a potent option which often nets massive frame advantage vs other options like hitting a shield. Reading a roll means you generally have changed something in your game to compensate. Usually its not attacking in situations where a roll would beat you. This helps promote slower and campier play.

Just imagine if you couldnt roll towards an opponent at all and imagine how much more pressure you would be able to deal when they are at the edge of the stage.

Heres some examples, DKs ftilt and utilt last about 37 to 38 frames last I checked and Lucarios jab lasts about 30.

I certainly hope that people arent alright with the possibility of someone with great reaction time which is more common at tournament level to be able to roll behind DKs ftilt or utilt on reaction and be advantageous? Because thats what exists. Also I can do it so dont say its impossible. I know that his tilts are laggy, however most moves have too much end lag in this game relative to the same games evasive options.

Point is, the games data allows dumb stuff. Lets buff rolls and make Marths dtilt trap wayy worse by changing its IASA frames, great idea =/

I agree there are some moves you can use roll to punish on reaction, but this is simplifying other properties a move might have.

 

[LightLV]

In many ways it did. Why roll when I can keep my options more open with a wavedash? I only see a person trying to use roll for the invincibility and knowing it will be used to punish something, though unlikely given how it's better to just outspace with a wavedash since you retain your options with no real dedication to the action to the degree a roll would.

I didn't assume future games did, I doubt any smash game was really balanced around a characters ability to wavedash, maybe PM as well but even then I'm not as certain there.

If people are complaining about rolls, most really don't take time or action to try and learn what to do and what not to do in those situations. That is at least what I have learned on these boards. I'd be far more interested in helping people learn how to deal with them rather than cry for nerfs like this thread and others have.

Are they overpowered? eh...not really, they don't turn into the best option and a lost of the risks with doing a roll are still there. It is something to get used to and learn, rolls are far stronger in this game, but using it as a main source of punishment and power is how you will lose easily.

Grab's can result in death in this game at higher percent, you still put your opponent in a unfavorable position. Yes there are no chaingrabs, but who the hell wants that back? That unbalances and makes gameplay in many cases degenerative, even in Melee when you can DI them more than in Brawl.

Shielding buffed is not really something I can agree with, shield stun? maybe, players can still be more offensive than in Brawl. Shield health? no way, shields lose health and break way faster in this game.

Rolling is easier, yes but it's not nearly as hard are you and others make it out to be to punish one. It's easier to mess up a punish, I'll give you that. But the option is not unfavorable or unviable.

Not to make this about wavedashing, but again, you're viewing the technique from a position of theory rather than practicality. Alot of options in fighters are intentionally superior to others, but are kept in check by technical barriers. And while wavedash was not an intended feature of the game, it was subject to this rule. The way 10 year tournament vets will handle a game vs. regular good'ol "solid" players are a bit different.

And again, Smash 4 isn't the first game in the series. People complain about shields and rolls because it is painfully obvious how OP they are. And, again, it is irrelevant if weaknesses exist, because since rolls still function the same as they did in the last 3 SSB games, they still have the exact same weaknesses. The difference is, they're all harder to exploit. If you need me to list them:


Shield breaking >> Very rare in smash 4. PShield window was increased, rolls are better, and i'd guesstimate about 85% of the time an attack on-block is unsafe, making this option pretty unviable to plan for.

Shield poking >> Also rare in smash 4 for the same reasons, but most importantly because so few moves are safe on block, and even more so because of how easy it is to escape pressure in Smash 4. There are more ways to create distance than to close and keep it.

Grabbing >> Best option for consistent punishes because they're fast, but this has also been nerfed. Attacks beat grabs in Smash 4, and Chaingrabs were eliminated, so the reward for reading a shield is lower than ever...unless you're diddy, shiek, ect.

Dsmashing rolls >> Also nerfed. VERY precise timing is required for most characters due to how fast rolls recover in smash 4. In fact, with the way the frames are, it's a better chance you'll either wiff and get punished, or get blocked and get punished.

Punish reads on rolls >> Also nerfed for the same reasons. Still possible, just harder than it's ever been to do.


If i missed any, please let me know, but it's irrelevant because nothing i missed didn't already exist in a previous smash iteration, and it's guaranteed to be less effective of an option in Smash 4. Yeah, there are ways around it, of course. But to say it isn't currently an OP option when looking at all the others in the game, it's a little hard to swallow. From grabs to jabs to smashes, the frame data in this game favors rolls and shields over any form of attack present.

Sure, people have to play around it to enjoy the game, but lets just call it what it is. Roll and shield is broken in this game. It's obvious on paper to begin with, and the fact people keep bringing it up just confirms it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Read?

I walk up to "footsie" distance. Then opponents roll into me. If I'm playing a quick character (Mario), then DSmash is fast enough to react to rolls. If I'm playing a slower character (PacMan has 18f smashes...), then tilts and grabs (even slow 12frame grabs) are fast enough to punish on reaction.

Different opponents have different speeds however, so it takes a good bit of practice to punish opponent's rolls on reaction. But once you practice your reaction and train for it, roll punishing on reaction is a deadly skill to have.




Thanks for the info. I forgot I even posted that months ago! Shulk's shield form is definitely "different" compared to everyone's.

SERIOUSLY...THIS!!!

Play footsies, not attempt to just run up to your opponent and hit buttons when they are blocking. **** will get you mauled in any fighter vs any legit opponent.

 

[TastyCarcass]

I get the feeling that rolling was buffed to replace wavedashing, without understanding the difference.

It's so fast that it made playing certain characters, such as DK, completely unfun against shield spammers who can roll around my dtilt and get a free grab.

Best way to deal with shields is going for a dash grab. When they start rolling backwards to deal with this, start full running with no grab and punish the back roll.

Still pretty horrible because it slows the game down, but safe on shield options do still exist.

From my experience, examples are DK's Lightning Punch or Palutena's super speed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

From my experience, examples are DK's Lightning Punch or Palutena's super speed.

Funny how the first things that come to mind are custom moves.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

This is why the "tomahawk" technique is so good.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm fairly certain that different characters have differing amounts of shield.

Bowser's shield is bigger than most character's, as is Shulk's shield-form.

Afaik all shields have 50% HP, regardless of size. Monado Shield either reduces the damage Shulk's shield takes or increases its max HP, I'm not really sure (though it does passively deplete more slowly, so... idk).

True, a character size isn't a factor determining how strong a bubble shield is, but shield-stabbing aka shield-poking probably hurts some characters a lot worse. Mr. G & W iirc was notorious for this.

But as far as the Shield Arts go, I don't think they reduce the damage Shulk's bubble shield takes but rather as you've mentioned the shield strength / max HP is increased from the slow depletion indicator. (It'd be easier to know if Shulk's bubble shield visually grew larger with a Shield Art active. That would be hilarious.) If the Shield Arts reduced damage on-shield because of the Art's damage reduction, then Hyper Jump Shulk's bubble shield should be broken by DK's Headbutt due to Hyper Jump increasing damage taken, but thankfully it doesn't.

Though I am baffled by one thing about the the Shield Arts, & it's that when Shulk's bubble shield is depleted low enough that holding the trigger any longer breaks it, I activate a Shield Art which essentially regenerates Shulk's bubble shield even faster than before. I came to that conclusion very quickly by setting Training Mode to 1/4 (Hold L) setting & planned ahead depleting my bubble shield to a very low size & had already cycled prior to the Hyper Shield Art & then dropped my bubble shield after the HShield Art activated. After waiting 6 seconds, HShield expires going on cooldown & putting up the bubble shield will show that it's practically max HP.

If only I could help figure out the exact depletion & regeneration per second, & max HP too. At the very least I know that Shield Arts also increase the bubble shield reset when broken. A character's shield reset after being broken being 30 gets broken by moves like Jigglypuff's Pound or Captain Falcon's Heavy Raptor Boost, but Shield Shulk's shield doesn't get broken after getting hit by Pound but it's very close to breaking.