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sheik vs sheik advice

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KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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It's not my fault, blame him! He's the one that didn't fall for any of my shenanigans!

Teach me the Falcon MU, great sensei.

:p
 
Tope

Tope

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Nihonjin said:
What happened to our P4 set? I thought it was recorded too.. :c



Falcon is lame.. >_>
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No it wasn't sadly, since it was on the projector. At least, I haven't been able to find it (thank god)


I dunno how you guys lose to that terrible character like really. After Hax beat Amsah at P5 he told me that he thought I was the best sheik in the world trolololol. I disagreed.

The MU is all about reacting to them, you can't initiate. If they go in the air, beat their attack with Nair or Ftilt. If they play more ground based DD campy then throw needles, grab, jab, and DD camp yourself. Jab is so broken in this match up.
 
Tope

Tope

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As far as on topic, just watched the matches. So upsetting to see you give up the ledge so many times. You were fine on combos spacing and all that good stuff. Edgeguarding needs some work and nerves definitely play some part in that. Don't be afraid to bair them when they're coming back, didn't take several chances at that.
 
N

Nihonjin

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Tope said:
No it wasn't sadly, since it was on the projector. At least, I haven't been able to find it (thank god)
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Aww.. xD


I dunno how you guys lose to that terrible character like really. After Hax beat Amsah at P5 he told me that he thought I was the best sheik in the world trolololol. I disagreed.
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He might be right, against Falcon at least. o_O

The MU is all about reacting to them, you can't initiate. If they go in the air, beat their attack with Nair or Ftilt. If they play more ground based DD campy then throw needles, grab, jab, and DD camp yourself. Jab is so broken in this match up.
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Basically, I'm too aggressive for my own good..lol
 
joejoe22802

joejoe22802

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I took pages of notes on top 8 sheiks vs hax. I'll condense and post observations later but in general those who played a close and tight play style did best and those who played with a widely spaced defensive approach got worked on.

:phone:
 
AlcyoNite

AlcyoNite

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joejoe22802 said:
I took pages of notes on top 8 sheiks vs hax. I'll condense and post observations later but in general those who played a close and tight play style did best and those who played with a widely spaced defensive approach got worked on.

:phone:
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i did something similar, but only with the m2k v s2j set.
In this series, playing up close sort of lent the result of exchanges to be more 50/50, usually depending on if sheik was behind falcon's shield or not. Thats not to say that playing aggressive wasnt effective for m2k, but he gave the job of rushing down to falcon and closed space when he wanted to.

I agree, though, that spending the whole game camping wont yield you much

Also, 20% of moves that hit were bair. nair and f-tilt are good, but i see them being baited out and punished much more easily than bair. I guess if the falcon is predictable then u can beat out his aerials with ur op f-tilt/CC -> f-tilt/rising nair, but i think bair is such a useful yet overlooked tool in this matchup
 
Tope

Tope

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I've stuck out that leg and gotten uaired for it more times than I care to admit to.
 
AlcyoNite

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yeah, understood. thats my one gripe with bair. but it does well against nair-happy falcons. that, and outspacing it -> grab/CC grab
 
joejoe22802

joejoe22802

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Hopefully this helps someone

Here are a good chunk of observations on sheiks vs Hax

Amsah
Amsah got punished for spaced bairs as Hax slowly crept closer.
He got baited for grabs with spaced nairs and for fairs by DD.
Generally didn't tech chase much and was rarely in shield.

Tope
Stayed very grounded in comparison to most sheiks. Played with very tight spacing and was able to punish start ups with tilts very quickly. A lot of spaced jab down tilt shenanigans. Really slowed falcon momentum.

M2K
Tended to throw moves right after down throws. Either this or he would start to DD right away. Seemed like he missed a lot of things because of these two things. Gave up some time in taking these actions. Also I felt like M2K pressured with aerials into grabs where some sheiks just danced around with these aerials for random hits.

Silentwolf
Some really nice needle platform camps. And good Downsmash placement

Times people get *****.
Tech in Place
DI Inward
Contesting Captain falcons Jump too slowly.
Spacing tight but getting stuck in shield and shield grabbing too much.
Grabs without any type of set up.
 
AlcyoNite

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trading with falco can work out as sheik because u often get falco in a grounded/tech situation or trade to get him in a juggle state, but peach? Peach can float cancel nair out of so much stuff and her ground game gives her a backup CC -> dsmash wherever she is and her big butt and rising nair make sheik's aerial pressre severely limited. plus in pal, d throw isnt even much of a threat at ANY percent, so...wtf?

o right and lets not even mention needling to force an approach cuz umm...turnips and float and peach punishing u for committing to something with ur slow *** jump and float canceled aerials that make her landing virtually impossible to punish and the impotency of sheik near the edge vs peach
 
bubbaking

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Don't know if you still need sheik ditto help, KK, but I watched the first match u had against M2K on DL. Obviously, you're way better than me, but t thought I would just, you know, provide my opinions. Anyway, I only really have one thing to say. After you lost your 1st stock, I don't know if it was wise to WD off>fair against the stage while he was stalling out your invincibility. IMO, it just put you in a bad position on the ledge and led to you being grabbed and eating 36%. After dying, I've noticed that being over-aggressive and trying to chase opponents who retreat to ledges often leads to the players switching places. Usually, you just manage to chase them back onstage while you have to grab the ledge. I think the best way to punish their retreat is to try to react to their action off the edge. Idk, just my 2 cents...

Crystalnite said:
trading with falco can work out as sheik because u often get falco in a grounded/tech situation or trade to get him in a juggle state, but peach? Peach can float cancel nair out of so much stuff and her ground game gives her a backup CC -> dsmash wherever she is and her big butt and rising nair make sheik's aerial pressre severely limited. plus in pal, d throw isnt even much of a threat at ANY percent, so...wtf?

o right and lets not even mention needling to force an approach cuz umm...turnips and float and peach punishing u for committing to something with ur slow *** jump and float canceled aerials that make her landing virtually impossible to punish and the impotency of sheik near the edge vs peach
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Wait, when did we start talking about Falco? O_o

silentSWAG said:
i don't know what to do against campy peaches
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Well, this may be wrong, but can't Sheik camp them back? The needles are fast enough that they completely shut down a Peach who is trying to pull out turnips. Her float is slow, so she can't really chase you w/ that (and spaced ftilts often beat out her aerials if you make sure to act before her aerial connects) so she's reduced to chasing you on the ground, hopefully w/ no turnips in hand. Of course, CC>dsmash comes to mind here.........ummmm, I punish pre-emptive dsmashes w/ needles but I don't like to commit much against Peaches so I'm probably missing out on a lot. :glare:
 
AlcyoNite

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Crystalnite said:
trading with falco can work out as sheik because u often get falco in a grounded/tech situation or trade to get him in a juggle state, but peach? Peach can float cancel nair out of so much stuff and her ground game gives her a backup CC -> dsmash wherever she is and her big butt and rising nair make sheik's aerial pressre severely limited. plus in pal, d throw isnt even much of a threat at ANY percent, so...wtf?

o right and lets not even mention needling to force an approach cuz umm...turnips and float and peach punishing u for committing to something with ur slow *** jump and float canceled aerials that make her landing virtually impossible to punish and the impotency of sheik near the edge vs peach
Click to expand...
there's your answer, my friend
 
KirbyKaze

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Peach Sheik in NTSC...

Make her get into the air and slap or bair her appropriately. Needles are good for making her go airborne. After you slap or bair her, your follow (assuming you get a follow) depends mostly on positioning and stuff. I find bair > bair is pretty common at low percents, and fair > f-tilt > fair is pretty common too. Fair > dash attack > ??? becomes pretty good at mid percents.

You can f-tilt through her aerials too, if you want to. You have to do it proactively rather than reactively, though, so be careful with it. You can also dash attack under her aerials (not dair) if you time it and position it correctly. Takes some getting used to, though.

If Peach decides to not approach when floating, remember that her float only lasts so long. You can honestly just sit back and charge ground needles and throw them at her when she's coming down if she's trying to be hyper conservative. Just be prepared to cancel the charge and swing at her (or retreat) if she starts coming at you. Her only option at that point is to attack (which is fine), try to throw you off with garbage like air-dodge that doesn't do anything about needles, or retreat to a platform. Peach being on a platform is a good position for you as long as you're not stupid (just don't jump into down smash).

When blocking, you can't counterattack after FC aerials. You can counterattack after dash attack, jabs, and down smashes. And anything that's spaced badly (f-smash, badly spaced d-tilt, etc).

If she decides to play a ground game, it's not too different, only you're supposed to play a bit more defensively because attacking recklessly into Peach's ground game gives her more chances to get under you. Use a bit more bair. WD back, shield, dash dance, etc. Just flaunt how your movement is much better than her's and you'll be fine.

Protip: When you're spacing bairs, if she comes in for a dash attack, instead of bairing just triangle jump away from her and then punish appropriately. I like to turn around and grab, but if f-tilt tickles your fancy and it's at a percent where it'll work, then go for it.

She's gonna crouch a lot so you have to be good at aiming your aerials relatively low to the ground (while still retaining the AC in the case of fair).

Lightshielding near the edge to force yourself to grab the edge is massively underrated and very good because she can't actually do that much about your poofstall without being kind of obvious about it. I mean, if you just poofstall over and over again she can eventually steal the edge, but you can see her getting that position and switch it up (baby ledgedash is amazing). If you can catch a turnip, you can make it really hard for her to cover all your recovery options onto the stage even if you forgo the use of the ledgedash so keep that in mind.

If they're really campy, if possible, push them to the edge (get them trapped under a platform, etc). From there you can just pressure them and zone them until you hit them offstage and then do some systematic aerial & tilt algorithm and you'll cover just about everything. You shouldn't concern yourself too much if she grabs the edge because you can cover most of her getup options really easily because she doesn't have a proper ledgehop (no ledgedash, really slow ledgehop aerial, loses almost all invincibility if she tries something funny, etc). Needles are amazing in this position.

10chars
 
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♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡

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KirbyKaze said:
LMFAO

I think you need to lurk moar ;)
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You make a thread saying you are bad, asking for matchup advice. When you get it you insult and embarrass the user, who took time to watch your matches and write his input, referring him as "ignorant". Even if the advice was no use for you (and the fact that it was just a couple of sentences), you should still appreciate the fact that he took his time analyzing the matches and writing his opinions on what might help you on the matchup, not put him down.
 
KirbyKaze

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Almost everything he said has been addressed by someone else in the thread, or it's so superficial I already know about it from watching these matches myself...
 
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♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡

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"Even if the advice was no use for you (and the fact that it was just a couple of sentences), you should still appreciate the fact that he took his time analyzing the matches and writing his opinions on what might help you on the matchup, not put him down."

E: Sorry, I am nitpicking
 
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