Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[HonBroChill]

Anyone have tips on killing puff at higher percents? I have a tendency to drag them up to like 110%-120% and then I can't land my dtilt>uair. Do I just suck or is there some other way to kill puff in that percent range?

 

[cisyphus]

down throw u air lol.

 

[Jackson]

down throw u air lol.

I'm unsure if that's always guaranteed at kill percents on Puff. Maybe. But yeah, it's our bread and butter throw combo.

 

[EddyBearr]

D-Throw U-Air is somewhat risky because if the Puff expects it, she can crouch your grab attempt and rest you.

When I play against a high percent puff as Sheik, I mostly fish for a stronger back air. Nair and fair work as well at times. Likewise, if the puff expects you to grab attempt, you can downsmash.

 

[cisyphus]

I actually use up smash instead of down smash in those situations. Not sure how legit it is, but I get KOs off of it.

 

[BTmoney]

edit 10nvms

 

[EddyBearr]

I actually use up smash instead of down smash in those situations. Not sure how legit it is, but I get KOs off of it.

Up Smash is so much slower that there are two risks: They shield, they do something (usmash, grab). Dsmash is tougher to shield based on speed, and Dsmash should beat the other options.

 

[hectohertz]

Anyone have tips on killing puff at higher percents? I have a tendency to drag them up to like 110%-120% and then I can't land my dtilt>uair. Do I just suck or is there some other way to kill puff in that percent range?

at higher percents, you can start using dash attack as a launcher. basically keep her above you, and then bair her as she tries to come down.

dthrow->uair is a true combo, but obvs hard to get grabs. needles can help with that

 

[hectohertz]

general sheik question: thoughts on using dsmash during tech-chases against any inplace options.

at low % is this a bad idea?

 

[cisyphus]

I just posted about this on the last page: grab is usually better, and I'd say tilts are as well.

 

[EddyBearr]

Downsmash is a good option if it'll threaten pushing them off-stage. It's also not bad against Falco because he's so hard to techchase.

 

[Zad]

Thank you. Hopefully with all of this information I can help better myself when playing against Sheik and have a Sheik of my own that isn't complete trash.

 

[Jackson]

Is there any way to do Sheik aerials at ground level really quickly? Her short hop goes really high. (Sheik noob here obviously )

 

[CeLL]

How many frames do you have (at least, so basically if he DI's away and techs away) before you have to start dashing the correct way to get a regrab on Fox after a dthrow? Like the minimum number of frames to react to the tech direction.

 

[Dervo]

CeLL Someone did any analysis on that.

Found it http://smashboards.com/threads/tech-chasing-fast-fallers-on-reaction.343054/

 

[Jackson]

Oh my bad, Dthrow to Uair isn't really a bread and butter throw combo here. Thought this was Smash 4, lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

general sheik question: thoughts on using dsmash during tech-chases against any inplace options.

at low % is this a bad idea?

Yes. Unless they're at like 19%+ and you'll put them offstage. Otherwise avoid like the plague.

There are some tricks with it involving tech window abuse but they are merely tricks and don't work out as well as simply grabbing the spacey over and over again in practice.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

<3 dsmash
<3 upsmash
<3 kirbykaze
<3 flash

 

[BombTicker]

<3 dsmash
<3 upsmash
<3 hectohertz
<3 kirbykaze flash <3

Fixed that for ya, kirbykaze<3 mah dood

 

[JobahFett]

I'm at a point where i feel like i have a weak neutral game because I'm waiting for the downthrow to start a tech chase. I'm super motivated to get better and currently I split my practice into 2, 30 minute sessions. Each session has 5-10 minutes increments of things I'm working on. ( spacing aerials on shield, pressured oos options,ledge work, downthrow tech chase etc..)

Any suggestions on things I should add to my practice schedule or on how to improve my neutral game. thanks !

 

[JediLink]

Is there any way to do Sheik aerials at ground level really quickly? Her short hop goes really high. (Sheik noob here obviously )

You've got to start the aerial as soon as you leave the ground. It's easiest to do with Z so that you don't have to move your thumb.

 

[Laudandus]

I'm at a point where i feel like i have a weak neutral game because I'm waiting for the downthrow to start a tech chase. I'm super motivated to get better and currently I split my practice into 2, 30 minute sessions. Each session has 5-10 minutes increments of things I'm working on. ( spacing aerials on shield, pressured oos options,ledge work, downthrow tech chase etc..)

Any suggestions on things I should add to my practice schedule or on how to improve my neutral game. thanks !

You answered your own question.

I'll give you the same advice I gave Dizzkidboogie, since the general principle is the same.

You don't want to focus entirely on fishing for grabs, or else you're just relying on your opponent messing up and giving you grabs for free. Instead, try to think about what options they're opening up for you because they are respecting your grab - are they jumping a lot, laser camping, platform camping? Sheik's fair, nair, and bair are all very good at calling and shutting down spacie jumps.

 

[Jackson]

You've got to start the aerial as soon as you leave the ground. It's easiest to do with Z so that you don't have to move your thumb.

So, can you fair someone's head by doing it fast enough?

 

[JobahFett]

You answered your own question.

I'll give you the same advice I gave Dizzkidboogie, since the general principle is the same.

You don't want to focus entirely on fishing for grabs, or else you're just relying on your opponent messing up and giving you grabs for free. Instead, try to think about what options they're opening up for you because they are respecting your grab - are they jumping a lot, laser camping, platform camping? Sheik's fair, nair, and bair are all very good at calling and shutting down spacie jumps.

Makes sense! Ive seen so many sets where m2k or shroomed just get the random aerial kills and I used to think that it was just that, random. I'm realizing more that it's just covering space safely with spaced aerials or calling the other persons options.

 

[thundrio]

Does anybody have links to high level sheik players analyzing their matches/other sheik matches? I see a lot of fox players do analysis but it would be nice to watch some of these to help figure out how my decision making can improve. They don't have to be sheik mains I guess, but it would be nice if the person critiquing the video did it from 'mostly' the sheiks point of view.

 

[JediLink]

So, can you fair someone's head by doing it fast enough?

Of course. Alternatively you could do it while falling instead.

 

[Napkin]

How should I get around Peach floating directly in front of me at a height and distance where tilts barely won't hit? Should I eat the fair, let the fair hit my shield and get grabbed, or should I attempt jumping over it, also risking getting hit into a juggle/edgeguard situation? This is mainly a question when my back's to the ledge.

 

[EddyBearr]

How should I get around Peach floating directly in front of me at a height and distance where tilts barely won't hit? Should I eat the fair, let the fair hit my shield and get grabbed, or should I attempt jumping over it, also risking getting hit into a juggle/edgeguard situation? This is mainly a question when my back's to the ledge.

Nair, SH fair, run away. smash turnaround SH bair.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

How should I get around Peach floating directly in front of me at a height and distance where tilts barely won't hit? Should I eat the fair, let the fair hit my shield and get grabbed, or should I attempt jumping over it, also risking getting hit into a juggle/edgeguard situation? This is mainly a question when my back's to the ledge.

Sounds like the perfect height to hit her out of her float with a b-air. If you don't have time and have to throw up your shield, try to be aware of peach's mixups on shield. F-air --> grab is beat by spot dodge/roll, fair--> jab or double jab can be beat by shield grab(and more). Fair --> dsmash is beat by holding shield. Often times you can get a feel for what they are looking for and counter it.

 

[EddyBearr]

Let's talk about needles while off-stage to try to interrupt edgeguards or fish for gimps. Such as what is seen in the video below.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAGHZU2eZA#t=6m30s ( @ 6:30 )

I've been keeping a mental tally of the times when high-level Sheiks do this (from Laudandus-level all the way up to M2K) and it appears to, far more often than not, result in a much worse position from Sheik. KDJ was lucky Zhu didn't punish harder in the video above, but I've seen a lot of instances in which Sheiks do this and get killed as a result -- at least as often as, if not more often than, the times Sheiks even initiate a gimp opportunity. Even worse, I recall a lot of Sheik stocks being lost at relatively low % (for Sheik. Like 80%) because of the drawbacks of this option. I'm nowhere near a top Sheik, but the trend feels comparable to me -- once in a blue moon, I'll get a gimp chance, but more often, I'll just get punished; even if I make it back to stage, I've lost my needles.

I feel like it's really not a good option and it's a bad Sheik habit. I've been thinking it's a better option just to try to recover deep into the stage or in ways that makes it seem like you might land on a platform.

Edit: Other videos:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfkz5taaz5M#t=3m50s (@ 3:50) ([Also at 1:32 to a lesser extent])
-@3:50: M2K could have easily just air-dodged on, up-b'd to the ledge, or done so much more. Instead, he needled, lost a bunch of options, and got put into a scenario where he should have been dead.
-@1:32: M2K loses his needles and is put into an edgeguard situation for an over-reach with needles, which would not have happened if he had needled to land on stage or even if he had only 1 needle [EX: 1:48]. As a result of his needles off-stage, he took 41%, partially hindered due to Mango "just staying in Shield" (M2K was in a very rough spot.)
-@5:26: M2K uses only 1 needle and is put into a rough spot as a result, eventually leading to death.
-@9:01: Safer than normal, but still took 32% and almost got gimped.

Edit2: I'd also like to talk about going very deep to gimp Fox, from the same M2K - Mango video above. Fox's recovery is so good, he has fire on his stall, and etc.. I feel it's not worth it when we can just play around the ledge. @7:45 (death, shoulda ledge/baired), @8:40 (eventual death).
--@ 9:42, it pays off, but it was very risky and almost resulted in a death. When he saw Fox going deep, he probably should have gone back to ledge and prepared a nair or bair.

Thoughts?

 

[Laudandus]

1:32 is a different thing, that's just edge guarding with needles. M2K missed the timing, but he did cover most of the options. His needle edge guard game isn't perfect but that doesn't mean needle edge guards aren't worthwhile.

As a recovery option, it's about as real as most of Sheik's recovery options (not that real) but isn't risking your needles because you are likely to die anyway, is very likely to get them off the ledge, and gets you a kill if it works. M2K mistimed it there, but if you do it right (sorry, I don't really feel like searching lots of video archives for an example) it can either hit people who don't have ledge invuln and kill them or hit people and turn them around, which stops them from getting to the ledge.

It has 2 gimmicky uses as well - if you hit too early, they can get to the ledge, but 99% of people won't turn back around and grab it. If you shoot it at people with ledge invulnerability, many will get off the ledge anyway.

In that M2K video, he does go too deep for a fire fox the one time (7:45) and messes up a timing another time (8:40), but the 8:40 one was guaranteed if he didn't mess it up so I think it's still worth going for. Hitting fire foxes low is risky if you mess up, but there's no counterplay and it kills them so it is certainly still worth going for.

 

[EddyBearr]

1:32 is a different thing, that's just edge guarding with needles. M2K missed the timing, but he did cover most of the options. His needle edge guard game isn't perfect but that doesn't mean needle edge guards aren't worthwhile.

As a recovery option, it's about as real as most of Sheik's recovery options (not that real) but isn't risking your needles because you are likely to die anyway, is very likely to get them off the ledge, and gets you a kill if it works. M2K mistimed it there, but if you do it right (sorry, I don't really feel like searching lots of video archives for an example) it can either hit people who don't have ledge invuln and kill them or hit people and turn them around, which stops them from getting to the ledge.

It has 2 gimmicky uses as well - if you hit too early, they can get to the ledge, but 99% of people won't turn back around and grab it. If you shoot it at people with ledge invulnerability, many will get off the ledge anyway.

In that M2K video, he does go too deep for a fire fox the one time (7:45) and messes up a timing another time (8:40), but the 8:40 one was guaranteed if he didn't mess it up so I think it's still worth going for. Hitting fire foxes low is risky if you mess up, but there's no counterplay and it kills them so it is certainly still worth going for.

I'll agree with most of this post (though I think I'd rather take a non-guaranteed bair wall gimp over going deep against Fox. [unless I had a stock lead and it was their last stock] Playstyle preference.) However, my argument was that using it as a recovery assistance makes you more likely to be killed than if you were to air-dodge, up-B, or etc. Thus, in a lot of scenarios, not only does it lead to a punish, but it wastes needles as Sheiks often could have made it back relatively safely (since if they're able to needle, then they've got a lot of options for recovering). I'll try to make a more physical tally of it, but I'm thinking of it more as a gimmick and not a meaningful strategy -- it shouldn't be working, and from my [possibly flawed] mental tally, I don't think it's been working out well for Sheiks.

"If you're close enough needle while trying to recover, it's probably better to just recover and not needle." Is how I'd articulate it.

 

[hectohertz]

How should I get around Peach floating directly in front of me at a height and distance where tilts barely won't hit? Should I eat the fair, let the fair hit my shield and get grabbed, or should I attempt jumping over it, also risking getting hit into a juggle/edgeguard situation? This is mainly a question when my back's to the ledge.

so my little rule of thumb for beating peaches float is:

- if theyre close, quick sh rising fair. peach's fair is actually fairly (ha!) slow, so you can slap her before she can slap you.

- if theyre further away, bair them as theyre coming down (after their aerial)



so using that, i would say sh rising fair.


the alternative would be (if youre confident theyre going to FC Fair --> Grab) to buffer a roll, which will cause the grab to whiff. she can punish that with FC Fair --> dsmash tho

 

[cisyphus]

Alright so I've been running tech chase drills in 20xx vs. Spacies and it feels like utilt covers EVERY non-tech roll option AND gives a strong follow up. Basically:

DI in front gets hit by any of the hitboxes
No DI usually gets caught by the second hitbox, if not the first.
DI behind gets hit by that last hitbox that trails behind Sheik.

I don't think I wavedash at all for this, either, although I could be mistaken. Plus it only has two frames of cool down after covering those three options so following up the tech rolls is still plausible. If you don't whiff, it's a free ftilt into anything you want pretty much. Certainly wouldn't be something to ALWAYS do but to throw it out there after the first d-throw of the match could scare them into tech rolling more (which I find easier to punish overall). I'll have to test it at the next smashfest/tournament I go to but it's really consistent from what I've seen. Confirmation/refutation of this observation?

Reply to the other posts:
I don't understand this needling the ledge thing at all, though. It literally doesn't make sense unless you're expecting your opponent to mess up. Attacking the ledgeholder in general is silly 'cause you can't grab ledge in the middle of attacks lol. They just get an invincible punish opportunity out of it or force you into a bad spot.

Going deep vs Fox is fantastic, though. Sheik doesn't have anything like a Marth f-tilt or Samus u-tilt to properly cover sweetspots, and Fox's recovery is ambiguous enough that it's difficult to judge whether it's a sweetspot or sneaking on stage, so grabbing ledge isn't even that great necessarily; even ledgehop aerials are tough because of the way sheik's hitboxes work: they could very well end up DIing on stage because they hit the stage side of Sheik's nair or bair, or it could whiff completely, or they could get ledge and the edgeguard gets reversed on you. Dropping down for a rising fair eliminates all of those concerns and rewards you if you're good at it and can react properly (which is easy considering it's their only option that low). It's something to practice and refine if you find yourself dropping it a lot, rather than giving it up just because it's hard.

 

[Zeppeli]

Have u tested how it works when people are CCing? I don't think it'd be too effective there ..

 

[cisyphus]

I have the 20xx spacies set to shine after their respective tech choice so I'm assuming I'm hitting them before they're able to input a true CC.

 

[CeLL]

Is there ever any point in doing a ledge option other than ledgedashing/shino stalling?

 

[cisyphus]

In sort, yes. If you just continuously shino stall and ledge dash, you're predictable and your opponent will just punish you for it. So far as options as strong as those two: Ledgehop fair has invincibility through its entire hitbox duration iirc. Nair has a large amount as well. The point of Shinostalling is less of stalling for time (contrary to the name) but rather to set up for the greatest use of the ledge invincibility: if you're controlling when you grab ledge 100% and are 100% comfortable with it, you can develop the ability to input a ledgehop waveland/nair/fair/dair with the most invincibility to make it the safest possible option. Which one you choose is simply a matter of the situation you're in.

On that same note, though: I learned through the Samus boards that you can auto-cancel a ledgehop uair with Samus. This is significant because the other option, waveland, has 10 frames of endlag built into it, whereas AC uair has just 4, allowing for a greater range of options. I'm wondering if Sheik is also capable of this maneuver, as the two characters' uairs are quite similar and I think the main cause is the shift in collision detection where Samus' "bottom" in the U-air gets to be far higher than her standard aerial pose. Wouldn't Sheik's be the same way? The basic concept is the same as the perfect waveland where you just creep over the edge, except you're up airing instead of air dodging.

 

[EddyBearr]

In sort, yes. If you just continuously shino stall and ledge dash, you're predictable and your opponent will just punish you for it. So far as options as strong as those two: Ledgehop fair has invincibility through its entire hitbox duration iirc. Nair has a large amount as well. The point of Shinostalling is less of stalling for time (contrary to the name) but rather to set up for the greatest use of the ledge invincibility: if you're controlling when you grab ledge 100% and are 100% comfortable with it, you can develop the ability to input a ledgehop waveland/nair/fair/dair with the most invincibility to make it the safest possible option. Which one you choose is simply a matter of the situation you're in.

On that same note, though: I learned through the Samus boards that you can auto-cancel a ledgehop uair with Samus. This is significant because the other option, waveland, has 10 frames of endlag built into it, whereas AC uair has just 4, allowing for a greater range of options. I'm wondering if Sheik is also capable of this maneuver, as the two characters' uairs are quite similar and I think the main cause is the shift in collision detection where Samus' "bottom" in the U-air gets to be far higher than her standard aerial pose. Wouldn't Sheik's be the same way? The basic concept is the same as the perfect waveland where you just creep over the edge, except you're up airing instead of air dodging.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ledgedrop-aerial-interrupt.366783/

 

[cisyphus]

That's what I was looking for! It's not more actionable than a ledgedash though unfortunately...