Sheik: Official Character Discussion

[Ulevo]

Discussion for Sheik. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:

 

[CT Chia]

for zelda and sheik:

anyway to make it so transformation time is consistent?

 

[Revven]

It's impossible because it is how the Wii loads the characters, it doesn't load Sheik before the match starts but rather as soon as you start transforming.

 

[CT Chia]

yea i knew how it loads but maybe we could do something that like when u downB with zelda or sheik we freeze something else on the stage whether it be background or something to give it a faster load time. if u pause the game and unpause it when ur transforming, the time is much faster because nothing else is hapenning during pause time

 

[leafgreen386]

What you mean is that it's much faster because it's loading while it's paused so you don't see all that extra time in the game.

 

[CT Chia]

even pausing then unpausing very quickly will speed it up a lot. and the fact that its variable time during times like stage transformation are graphic intense parts like on lylat cruise makes it longer, if we freeze something like the stage while zelda's down Bing, it should speed it up

 

[leafgreen386]

So we're taking away sheik's ftilt lock and causing it to tumble much earlier now. We've known we were doing this for a very long time, but only now have actually been able to do it.

But this is still a nerf, and I think she needs just a little something in return, as this does hurt her ability to rack up damage. Some people have suggested to give her more kb on the fair. Although a very slight fair kb buff could be nice, I think there's a more appropriate fix. I never thought about this before since the move has such low landing lag, but as I was playing today, I finally realized what fair's biggest problem is. Its not its kb. It's its speed. For the way the move was designed (as a combo/gimping tool), it should have been made faster so that it could lead into other aerials better. In melee, where its ultimate purpose was in having a strong finisher, the speed of the move wasn't a problem; it was still amazing, regardless. But to be a truly effective move the way it's designed now, it needs to be made faster.

Currently, you can't expect to be able to fair -> fair someone without getting hit in the middle of it. She also cannot fj fair -> bair/nair before landing on a platform. Buffing the speed of the fair would make it a better combo move and increase its utility without directly buffing her ability to kill. It would further emphasize her focus as a combo/gimp oriented character, instead of patching up her killing weakness. I think it's about the most perfect change you could make to her at this point.

 

[The Cape]

What about giving her less landing lag off her up and B?

 

[leafgreen386]

Eh... if I was going to buff one thing about her, though, it would be the fair. She does have a lot of lag on her upB, but her recovery is fine, already, and I think that even if you did reduce the ending lag on it that it wouldn't be that much better on the stage.

 

[Ulevo]

I support the idea of both a speed buff and knock back buff for Sheiks Fair. Have its base knock back the same, just increase the scale. That way it could combo at low percents, and provide a strong finisher later. She lacks a solid finisher right now that she can combo in to right now outside of Nair, which isn't as efficient. It's not powerful enough, and would be easier to DI than a Fair.

 

[The Cape]

I would like to see higher scaling on fair, bair, and uair for sheik. Giving her more on stage killing options if she gets her opponents to higher percents.

I would also like to see her FF dair turned into a regular dair as its the only FF dair that is completely useless right now and seems to have more uses in combos, tech chases, and the like as a normal move.

 

[Revven]

Yeah the major problem with Dair is that it has virtually no uses and it FFs. If it couldn't FF, it would have SOME use (as it has way more KB than Melee's Dair did). I could see it have some potential. Fair scaling should be changed enough so it can KO people at 125%-140% as opposed to the 145%-160% it does now. Bair KOs quite nicely already but, it could have some better scaling so it KOs a bit earlier too, and Uair is always nice from a Dthrow, it should def. KO earlier (scale it to change it appropriately, not the base knockback).

She has a hard time against heavyweights, at least make the match-ups more interesting for both sides.

Edit: However, this isn't to say she's a bad character, she's pretty fine right now if we don't change Bair, Uair, and Dair. I'd be all for just changing Fair's scaling.

 

[CT Chia]

to fix the dair i would say either:
-remove the FFing
or
-make sheiks ALR very low, so she can do the dair as is then continue stuff from out of it. From the nature of her moves I would say making her ALR really low wouldnt be a bad thing. most of her aerials dont see to be combo moves too much but instead hit away moves, where ALR wont change that. what is she at now? 40? 50? I can't recall how much lag her dair has now but maybe make it like 20%? It could really speed her up also and help apply a good pressure game.

it seems she has problems killing overall. i would increase the kb on fair a good amount. i would say have it a bit stronger than what falco suggested, maybe killing at like 100-125 (unless the character has good recovery).

slightly up the kb overall to bair. have it so its a tad better than it is now, but not as much of a kill move and more of a gimping tool and platform tech chaser

increase kb on uair at higher percents so its a bit better at killing but ok for juggling at low and mid percents.

maybe give sheik more momentum to help make her aerial game even more fluent?

 

[leafgreen386]

Lowering ALR wouldn't just help her dair, actually. It would be great for her uair, too. Currently uair doesn't combo at low percents quite as nicely as you might think it would due to the lag. This would be a really nice change, I think.

The thing with the dair is that I do like the concept of the fast fall dair, and I think that it could be useful if it was implemented differently. It's just that it takes so long to come out before she falls, by the time she does, the fall isn't that useful anymore. If we were to just speed up the beginning of the move so that the fall happened faster I think she would actually be able to use that fall to her advantage.

I wouldn't make the fair powerful enough to kill at 100, though. Most characters should die around 120% from it. It shouldn't kill at 100 unless they're already off the stage.

So to recap the ideas going around in this thread right now (just gonna list them all):

- faster fair
- higher fair scaling (kill around 120-125%)
- higher uair scaling (slight)
- higher bair scaling (slight)
- lower upB lag
- lower ALR
- reduce dair startup OR change dair to a normal move
- more momentum

And now my opinions on these:

I think the upB lag is a weakness that should be preserved. She has two ways to recover to the ledge, and for that she trades having a good recovery onto the stage.

I think lower ALR would also be a very appropriate change for her, and when it comes down to it, this and a better fair might be all she needs.

The uair and bair changes would be nice, and certainly welcome, but they aren't necessary. I don't think they would need too much of an increase if we did buff them.

As I already stated, I think reducing the dair's startup would be a better fix than just completely changing the way the move works. I think this change would be at the bottom of the priority list, though.

The momentum is an interesting one. Personally, I think momentum needs to be universally brought back up to 95% from its current 92.5%, if not brought all the way back to 100% with a few specific characters receiving minor momentum nerfs. As a specific character buff I'm not sure if this would be that great of an option, though.

 

[shanus]

In the latest set, (i haven't tested hers yet), I buffed her fair base from 0 to 10, and upped her gain as well.


Edit: Tested, Kills Mario at 150% from the dead middle of FD. From the edges at 120, it was an easy kill.

 

[goodoldganon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D19qAtwvpKU

Should load up soon. Feel free to inform us if we are doing something wrong. Remember this: Sonic is his best character, I just picked Sheik today and wanted to try the F-air buff. I also only went for F-tilt locks. This is significantly worse on Fast Fallers and heavies.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I made my reply in the comments

 

[Foxy]

What I noticed that Sheik REALLY needs right now is a buff to her dash attack.

It definitely should have less ending lag and upwards knockback to set up for combos like its Melee counterpart.

Right now, it's simply a rarely-used move and she doesn't have enough combo starters as it is.

 

[Revven]

She has a Dthrow CG on FFer's and you can't do **** about it. If you DI away, you get CG'd, if you DI towards her, you get combo'd. Is that really... umm... necessary?

 

[goodoldganon]

Unless we want to hinder Sheik's matchups against the medium and slow fallers I think we just have to accept the fact that Sheik rolls the Fast Fallers.

 

[Foxy]

Just because a character has a chain throw doesn't mean that they're good to go.

The rest of her moves aren't exactly fantastic, barring her decent aerials and a few tilts.

Sheik and Marth had deadly chain throws in Melee but the rest of their moves were still great.

 

[Dark Sonic]

She has a Dthrow CG on FFer's and you can't do **** about it. If you DI away, you get CG'd, if you DI towards her, you get combo'd. Is that really... umm... necessary?

The answer is so simple! DI towards and take the combo hits, then DI away to minimize the combo!!

You're a fast faller. Getting combo'd comes with the job.

 

[leafgreen386]

The answer is so simple! DI towards and take the combo hits, then DI away to minimize the combo!!

You're a fast faller. Getting combo'd comes with the job.

Indeed it does. Indeed it does.

I actually kinda wish that her fthrow set up better to chain throw when people DI'd up. Would be the most awesome mixup ever. You can DI toward or up for the dthrow and take combo hits, but if you DI away you get chain thrown. But if she fthrows and you're DIing to avoid the dthrow chain throw, she can regrab, while DIing away on the fthrow would let you tech. There would never be a single best way to DI!

Not that her throws need any help. Her game is already extremely grab centric. It would just be an insanely cool mixup. We can't edit throw kb properties yet, anyway.

If sheik ends up needing any more buffs to her approach game, I'd like to see them focused around leading into a grab, since once sheik gets a grab on you, you are going to take another hit or three. Speeding up the aerial needle animation could be one way to do this, so that she could sh needle -> grab again. Because tbh, needles aren't that useful anymore. They were more useful in regular brawl of all places, since they could be used for a free 18% at just about any time you catch your opponent in a bad place. But that was punishment in vb. In brawl+, to punish someone, you can like... run... and grab... and combo. Also, since they barely have any kb at all, they aren't too useful for edgeguarding, either, which is kinda disappointing.

That said, I feel there are definitely characters out there in need of help more than sheik right now.

 

[The Cape]

So I have an idea to make Sheik's F smash link more (as people have been asking about it)

Why not make the first hit of the F smash slip (like Diddy naners)

This will link the second hit almost guaranteed and make the move actually useful.

 

[Revven]

Sheik's Fsmash is fine, Cape. She doesn't need any changes right now before some other characters (Sonic for example).

 

[The Cape]

Not saying its a neccesary change, its just an idea on how to fix it since alot of players complain about it instead of learning to space it properly.

Might be something to test and consider in the future though.

 

[goodoldganon]

Sheik's Fsmash is fine, Cape. She doesn't need any changes right now before some other characters (Sonic for example).

Since when did Sonic need help?

Either way, I'd test it but I agree it's unnecessary.

 

[Revven]

Okay, Sheik is just too good with her Fair now. Tone it down to 125 KBG and let's see how that goes. I was able to gimp my friend MUCH easier than it should be required to do so with Sheik. Although I'm not quite sure on his DI, he said he was DI'ing. However, most of the time he seemed to be an FF'er I think.

When I record the replays, I'll let you know. But the Fair IS quite ridick at the KBG it's at now. Maybe 130 KBG instead until I know for sure it's ridiculously good.

 

[Revven]

Sheik's next issue now is that Dthrow leads to EVERYTHING (except Dair lawl). If you DI anywhere, you get ***** so bad by her Uair, Fair, or Bair. Like, it's so good, my friend SciFiGuy tried DI'ing it in a bunch of different ways (including trying to jump like a madman, he clawed the jump). He was Snake at the time, so I assume this effects the other heavyweights and fastfallers just as bad (I woulkdn't be surprised about floaties either).

Anywho, the main issue from the Dthrow just isn't because you can't DI it to avoid combos, but, she has a legit "CG" which works like this: Dthrow > Fair > Jab > Regrab > Dthrow > Fair > Jab. I assume on FD you can do it at LEAST three times to the edge and then edgeguard for an easy gimp (depending on %).

I will have videos of this shiz and I HOPE to get it up soon.

I'm not sure how we can actually fix this unless we had a throw modifier (which we don't) or hitstun was lowered (which ALSO won't do much anyway). SOOOOOOOOOOO probably can't fix it for awhile... -_-

BTW, if ANYONE knows how to DI it to avoid combos from it, POST NOW. Because it must be some super secret magical to DI it and avoid it LET ME KNOWWW.

 

[goodoldganon]

Did you test in on multiple characters? SciFiGuy uses C.F. almost exclusively right? Could just make that matchup even more one-sided...

Either way, vids first before I make a real judgment.

 

[Revven]

Did you test in on multiple characters? SciFiGuy uses C.F. almost exclusively right? Could just make that matchup even more one-sided...

Either way, vids first before I make a real judgment.

He played Snake against my Sheik and it worked on Snake quite well. There is virtually no way to DI that throw and avoid getting combo'd. If it works on Snake, it likely works on everybody for the most part (unless you're super floaty).

BTW, SFG could NOT get out of being combo'd until 140% from the Dthrow... I think that's a bit nuts. The BEST way you can DI the Dthrow right now (from what we tested) was up and towards (diagonally towards Sheik) which she can STILL land a Bair from and I'll bet on FD that she'll be able to land a Fair right after and edgeguard.

Dthrow > Fair > Jab > regrab. Try it, it works when you DI away, DI Up and away, DI down and away and etc. except for up and towards which as I said earlier sets up for a Bair.

 

[goodoldganon]

Seeing the Wario topic is just makes me realize I CAN NOT wait for the throw modifier.

 

[leafgreen386]

A character has guaranteed combos from a grab!? OH NO! WE MUST FIX THIS!

Stop being stupid. You said it yourself. She can't set up for another grab if you DI up and toward her, which makes it harder for her to combo you in general. It's not even like the DI to escape one thing sets up for another equally **** situation. No. There is one singular DI you can use to minimize her followups.

So... you got grabbed. So what? Suck it up and take your damage, and DI to minimize the damage you take. There are lots of characters that are guaranteed some form of followup from a grab. It's what makes grabbing worthwhile to begin with. It doesn't matter if a character can 0-death every character in the game off of a grab if that 0-death requires they DI in a certain way, and the throw only leads into 20% if they DI it correctly. People will simply DI correctly, and only in very rare situations in high level play will you ever actually see that 0-death, because everyone knows how to DI to minimize damage from a followup.

Just DI it right and deal with your extra 20%. It's hardly broken.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

If you land on the ground, you can jab, roll/dodge before she can cancel jab into her grab. If you're still airborne, you can jump away from that.

Jab grabs just aren't guaranteed like that.

I still rather despise the current state of her ftilt, but one of these days I'll get my own KB and angle figures.

 

[leafgreen386]

If you land on the ground, you can jab, roll/dodge before she can cancel jab into her grab. If you're still airborne, you can jump away from that.

Jab grabs just aren't guaranteed like that.

I still rather despise the current state of her ftilt, but one of these days I'll get my own KB and angle figures.

Have you played with the most recent change? It sets up for sh aerials at low percents now rather than fj ones. Actually, I may need to raise the angle slightly, as I haven't tested yet if ff'ers can tech before you can get off a followup if they DI away.