Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[Hollywoodrok12]

Stay strong, definitely. However I wouldn't pressure him with the things he could do with his life and give more regrets, when it may be better to count blessings and take heart in what he does have. At least, that's what I feel.

Yeah, that's why I put maybe. Thought It'd try to give him more motivation, but wasn't sure if that's how it would have been received.

 

[Deleted member]

I really hope he's gonna turn out okay. He brought a lot to the thread. Every time someone double posted, I was waiting for him to call them out on it. I'm still having trouble believing that he might be gone for good.

Do not worry I will take that place for him

 

[PichuMain]

Maybe its just me, but has this Thread slowed down because of Dylly? Not being rude or anything, I hope.

Like, I check back hours from now, and only a few comments are up instead of the usual 2-3 pages worth of Shantae.

Never realized how much of an impact he had till he was gone...Wow..

 

[NukeA6]

Maybe its just me, but has this Thread slowed down because of Dylly? Not being rude or anything, I hope.

Like, I check back hours from now, and only a few comments are up instead of the usual 2-3 pages worth of Shantae.

Never realized how much of an impact he had till he was gone...Wow..

This was the only thread he was in after all and he posted a lot.

 

[MagusOfIllusions]

I just got back. I'm a little lost right now, (and having trouble recouping from yesterday. )
Sorry, let me talk to Dylan's friend. My assumption was that dylly was mostly on his phone all the time, and now his friend has it. I may be wrong, and I need to talk to him to understand what's going on or what. But what's most important? I'm not sure what to do or ask actually, please help me out here.

Sorry Teeb if I put any extra stress on you but can you tell Dylly to be strong and Dance Through the Danger I feel like thats fitting.

thank you for your help Teeb if you need to please take it easy.

 

[ProtoTwi]

Gonna rock a Rotty profile pic for a while.

 

[Kalomaze]

woah what happened ere

 

[SoupCanMafia]

woah what happened ere

A pretty tragic event happening to one of our mates.

 

[Teeb147]

I asked about the information people might want to know, and to post it here.
He wasn't sure about posting it here, for several reasons. I told him it's worth it for the friends dylly has here.

I did my best yesterday, and I'll keep doing what I can, but I'll need help because I'm feeling shaky and can't think as well today.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Hi,
Just dropping in to offer my prayers for Dylly. I hope he pulls through.

 

[Shadowknight1]

Sorry Lucina, time for you to take a break. New avatar time.

 

[Teeb147]

Ok, well I couldn't get everything I wanted, and Dylly's friend feels better about relaying the info through me or someone, and doesn't know fully about his disease,
But I'll relay what I got:

Spoiler

"It's a form of cancer. "

"
What the doctors are saying is very distressing, and it makes me lose even more hope about his survival.

Dylan isn't doing that great, his body is shutting down on him. It hurts for him to move at all. He looks like a raisin, all shrivelled up. The pain medication is starting to work a bit more now, so he might be able to type again sometime soon.

I will definitely tell him that he is being rooted for by his fellow Shantae supporters.

If they want to send PMs, they can. I'll show them to him for sure. "

He also said he might survive for a few days at one point.

Don't know what to make of things but you can pm dylly's account if you want your wishes to be read to him
And I'll see if anyone else could be relayed info if I'm not there.
Thank you.

 

[Moderately obsessed]

I know a while ago we were thinking about potential movesets for Shantae. Smash Bros Crusade created one and it looks pretty cool.
https://youtu.be/7Q-GVDRzd1U
she loses a lot, but this is good.

 

[pholtos]

Popping over from the Isaac thread to give my well wishes to Dyllybirdy.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I didn't even know Dyllybirdy to begin with having just recently joined at the end of August but my prayers are out to him. The loss of even one life is very tragic. Hopefully he's at peace now.

 

[Shadowknight1]

I know a while ago we were thinking about potential movesets for Shantae. Smash Bros Crusade created one and it looks pretty cool.
https://youtu.be/7Q-GVDRzd1U
she loses a lot, but this is good.

It's not bad...but it's not very intuitive. Then again, it might work better for someone with an actual controller for their computer, where I just use the keyboard, so that may be my problem.

 

[NukeA6]

Ok, well I couldn't get everything I wanted, and Dylly's friend feels better about relaying the info through me or someone, and doesn't know fully about his disease,
But I'll relay what I got:

Spoiler

"It's a form of cancer. "

"
What the doctors are saying is very distressing, and it makes me lose even more hope about his survival.

Dylan isn't doing that great, his body is shutting down on him. It hurts for him to move at all. He looks like a raisin, all shrivelled up. The pain medication is starting to work a bit more now, so he might be able to type again sometime soon.

I will definitely tell him that he is being rooted for by his fellow Shantae supporters.

If they want to send PMs, they can. I'll show them to him for sure. "

He also said he might survive for a few days at one point.

Don't know what to make of things but you can pm dylly's account if you want your wishes to be read to him
And I'll see if anyone else could be relayed info if I'm not there.
Thank you.

I'm guessing these two weeks were the "calm before the storm" period of cancer (the word for it escapes me at the moment). Still, why did he not mention it? And why that suspicious as hell final post? Whoever it was could have addressed the whole situation instead of making some vague and out-of-character post.

But assuming this is all truth, well it was nice to have him around. Yeah, he liked posts a bit too much but things were really lively here. Wish it was a bit longer because I only known about his posts for barely a week.

 

[meleebrawler]

I know a while ago we were thinking about potential movesets for Shantae. Smash Bros Crusade created one and it looks pretty cool.
https://youtu.be/7Q-GVDRzd1U
she loses a lot, but this is good.

This was posted a while ago.

And I'm gonna repeat myself bluntly: no, it's not good. The transformations other than the harpy have incredibly niche benefits that don't warrant a special move slot (if the monkey is only good for dash-dancing, why not just skip the transform step and have the monkey form be her dash full stop?), and overall I fail to see any coherent gameplan with her tools.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, well I couldn't get everything I wanted, and Dylly's friend feels better about relaying the info through me or someone, and doesn't know fully about his disease,
But I'll relay what I got:

Spoiler

"It's a form of cancer. "

"
What the doctors are saying is very distressing, and it makes me lose even more hope about his survival.

Dylan isn't doing that great, his body is shutting down on him. It hurts for him to move at all. He looks like a raisin, all shrivelled up. The pain medication is starting to work a bit more now, so he might be able to type again sometime soon.

I will definitely tell him that he is being rooted for by his fellow Shantae supporters.

If they want to send PMs, they can. I'll show them to him for sure. "

He also said he might survive for a few days at one point.

Don't know what to make of things but you can pm dylly's account if you want your wishes to be read to him
And I'll see if anyone else could be relayed info if I'm not there.
Thank you.

Teeb147 Show Dylan this please...

@Dyllybirdy i just want to say thank you for being here. you did bring lots of humor here but it’s sad that you have to leave. as a result I will make my profile pic rottyyops to continue your legacy. your the best! thank you for everything!


Love: Connor Dempsey (@Connorb0t2)

I’m going to miss him

 

[Teeb147]

I'm guessing these two weeks were the "calm before the storm" period of cancer (the word for it escapes me at the moment). Still, why did he not mention it? And why that suspicious as hell final post? Whoever it was could have addressed the whole situation instead of making some vague and out-of-character post.

But assuming this is all truth, well it was nice to have him around. Yeah, he liked posts a bit too much but things were really lively here. Wish it was a bit longer because I only known about his posts for barely a week.

I have over 9 pages of pms with him, so I can say there is so much affecting him. (and had trouble addressing many things of it)
I still really think that a big part of this involves anxiety crises too, from what I gathered, but dylly didn't seem to think it was fully understood what all the issues were.

 

[Moderately obsessed]

This was posted a while ago.

And I'm gonna repeat myself bluntly: no, it's not good. The transformations other than the harpy have incredibly niche benefits that don't warrant a special move slot (if the monkey is only good for dash-dancing, why not just skip the transform step and have the monkey form be her dash full stop?), and overall I fail to see any coherent gameplan with her tools.

O_o... Ok?
I never played the actual smash bros crusade game, but the person appeared to favor the harpy form so that's mainly what I saw. In the video it seemed exactly as you said they're all good for different scenarios. What I thought I saw was monkey is good for fast moves and damage building, the elephant was good for the killing blow and reduced knockback, and the harpy was good for recovery and keeping the opponent from recovering. Though it's similar to pokemon trainer (if the trainers hopped into the fight themselves) it seems like a good conglomerate of all of her abilities.

 

[Moderately obsessed]

It's not bad...but it's not very intuitive. Then again, it might work better for someone with an actual controller for their computer, where I just use the keyboard, so that may be my problem.

it looked pretty smooth watching someone who probably played it a lot. What do you mean by intuitive? Like which part of it wasn't?

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Shovel Knight is today's blog update
>indie character
>guess who's also an indie character that's been requested a lot

 

[SoupCanMafia]

Shovel Knight is today's blog update
>indie character
>guess who's also an indie character that's been requested a lot

In all seriousness, though, it's just a blog post. It's unlikely there's to be anything super special about this aside from showcasing Shovel Knight in a little more detail.

 

[Shadowknight1]

it looked pretty smooth watching someone who probably played it a lot. What do you mean by intuitive? Like which part of it wasn't?

In practice, it just doesn't work well in Crusade. Trying to use the other specials, it's too easy to accidentally do one of the transformations.

 

[Midnight Torch]

I wasn't originally in the Shantae camp, but after looking at her game's trailers, she seems like a fun character to play as. Count me in on the support!

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

In practice, it just doesn't work well in Crusade. Trying to use the other specials, it's too easy to accidentally do one of the transformations.

what if they made it like how it is in HGH where you have a menu, maybe for smash it's her down b as she does a belly dance, and you can only use them for a limited amount of time

 

[Makai Wars]

Shovel Knight getting in as an Assist is such a big deal, prior to this it was common belief that Indies would never be seen on the battlefield. Commander Video got a Trophy and that was cool and all, but Sakurai granted Shovel Knight with the second highest honor after being a fighter. That's so cool!

Honestly speaking I considered Shantae a never ever till I saw SK showed up, now I have hope that Sakurai would deem an indie worthy of joining the roster....though I guess it's wishful thinking, she's still super unlikely but I'll support her will Wayforward finally tells us she isn't in the game.

 

[Shadowknight1]

what if they made it like how it is in HGH where you have a menu, maybe for smash it's her down b as she does a belly dance, and you can only use them for a limited amount of time

That would work better. The thing with Crusade, at least in my personal experience, is that it's too easy to accidentally input the special button just before the direction, starting the dance. So trying to use the fireball, might accidentally change into monkey form. I think a down special would work much better. Make the standard special the Pike Ball, the forward special the Fire Ball, and the Up Special...honestly, I don't like the Storm Puff as a potential recovery, so I say Risky's Cannon to give her some Pirate's Curse stuff. And her dash should be the Scimitar rush.

 

[Shinuto]

Shovel Knight getting in as an Assist is such a big deal, prior to this it was common belief that Indies would never be seen on the battlefield. Commander Video got a Trophy and that was cool and all, but Sakurai granted Shovel Knight with the second highest honor after being a fighter. That's so cool!

Honestly speaking I considered Shantae a never ever till I saw SK showed up, now I have hope that Sakurai would deem an indie worthy of joining the roster....though I guess it's wishful thinking, she's still super unlikely but I'll support her will Wayforward finally tells us she isn't in the game.

Some are saying Shovel Knight only got that due to his game being published by Nintendo in Japan.

That would work better. The thing with Crusade, at least in my personal experience, is that it's too easy to accidentally input the special button just before the direction, starting the dance. So trying to use the fireball, might accidentally change into monkey form. I think a down special would work much better. Make the standard special the Pike Ball, the forward special the Fire Ball, and the Up Special...honestly, I don't like the Storm Puff as a potential recovery, so I say Risky's Cannon to give her some Pirate's Curse stuff. And her dash should be the Scimitar rush.

I don't know about you but i've NEVER accidentally done a neutral special when trying to do a directional special in Smash.

ah dammit I doubleposted.

 

[DeltaSceptile]

I know I might be late to this, but I wasn’t able to get on earlier today, and would just like to say that DyllyBirdy was an awesome member of the Shantae community and even though he wasn’t here for very long, he did bring a lot of fun discussions to this thread and was basically a staple of the community here. Without him it just feels like something is missing. Hope he can get better.

 

[Shadowknight1]

I don't know about you but i've NEVER accidentally done a neutral special when trying to do a directional special in Smash.

ah dammit I doubleposted.

Try playing Smash with a keyboard...especially a fan-made Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Shovel Knight is today's blog update
>indie character
>guess who's also an indie character that's been requested a lot

Don’t worry y’all shantae’s fighting her way up to the roster!

 

[zferolie]

Well been trying to keep m mind positive with smash. With Dyl and the box theory, i just needed to think. warning this is a massive text post, sorry about that. I would normally make my own thread but i beleive thats frowned here. I am probabaly put this in the newcomer disscussion thread as well, but as I main her and Medusa threads I wanted to post this here first.

I am still pretty sure that box is just a mock up. quickly photoshopped together to show a general idea of what the box will look like. I am sure we are getting more then 2 fighters base. Very sure. In fact been thinking just how many, and I am still sure that our final base is 84, due to smash down.

However,, the question is, how many does smashdown, count characters? Does it count them by places on the character select screen, like the Box does(which is saying we have a total of 70 characters right now including isabelle) or does it count on how Sakurai is actually counting characters, shown on the about page on the smash website. Remember how I showed that it used to say we are currently at 71? Now look at the site.

Spoiler: Large pitcure inside

Now why is this different? well its the Mii Fighters. They use 1 box on the character select screen, but count as 3 fighters. Also, pokemon also is 3 characters in 1 slot, but counts as 1 fighter as you do get to play as all 3 fighters in 1, unlike with mii fighter

This could punch a hole at the box thoery that says 72 fits for smashdown, because if smashdown lets you use each mii fighter, with Ken and Inceniroar thats 74 fighters. But thats not why I brought this up.

I am going to assume Sakurai is going to end this game saying 84 fighters in the game on that screen there. so that means 12 more fighters. if we were gonna go with how everyone is saying we have 70 character slots currently(since mii fighter uses 1) that would have left us with 14 more characters coming, which is incorrect. 12 more are coming based on that number of 72 selectable characters are in the game.

Now, how many are echos, how many are newcomers, and how many are from returning series? I looked at 2 things: The stage selection screen(tied to Corocoro 108 stages plus 1 DLC button), and the music player screen. First, the stage selection as thats breif. we know hthere are currently 6 blank spots, and sakurai wouldn't just leave blank spots. He did on the 3ds but I assume thats due to hardware issues and saved those blank spots for the DLC, which it filled. He didn't do that in wii u, which DLC got its own button. This one I feel will follow the later, with, if we are gettin a create a stage back, becoming a tab like in Wii u

Now, newcomers that are from existing series have not gotten any stages tied to them. I think this will countinue to be the case, save for maybe Geno, who may count as a Mario character for music, which I will get more into. So, at most, 5 brand new franchises, if each got new stages, though a retro may not. still, lets go with 5 for this example.

Butwe can further how many newfranchises we can expect, by looking at the sound test screen. as sakurai stated. the music in the game is organised by series, but some series is placed in other if they don't have a stage, or they themselves don''t have much music tied to it. for the Later, ROB, Duck Hunt, and Ice Climbers all are in other). Knowing that, Here is the end of the screen.

Spoiler: Another large screen

As you can see, there is room for 3 more series to fit. The pokemon new comer, and the retro I am sure we are getting, will most likely not get their own screen spot. Also, to help debunk the box theory, more so then the stage selection screen as we could get 5 stages not tied to newcomers, we have 32 music icons listed, which includes and all and 2 mario ones. why would Sakurai leave space open for 3 when he could have fit the 32 icons easily into a 4x8 layout, but instead he did a 5x7 layout. the only reason is we have 3 more series getting music selections, and the box theory cannot fit 3 more series, and verg's 2 picks would not give us 3 new series, in fact it gives us none. so we know for sure that 3 newcomers will be from new series, and retro would not be counted towards that.

So, with those thoughts out, that leaves us with newcomers: 1 new pokemon(looking to be inceniroar if Verg is correct), 1 new retro, and 3 new series fully. 5 new comers at the very least are still coming. The last bit is a bit less solid, but fits how Sakurai could work and whats he doing. If we end with 5 newcomers, that would give us 73 numbered fighters, since echos share numbers. Sakurai I don't feel would end on an odd number. Just feels... wrong almost. so 1 more newcomer will give us 74, and I feel that is were he will stop for the base game, in terms of full on newcomers that get their own number.

So that leaves us with echos, and thats easy. we said there should be 84 total selectable fighters in this game, and we needed 12 to hit that. with 6 Full newcomers, that leaves us with 6 echos to fill those out.

As to who those fighters are. I'll go into my predictions/wants. I do feel that Verg is probably right on Inceniroar and Ken, though I would rather have Gardevoir and Akuma. so first, my predictect/wanted remaining newcomers. as well as noting which is getting one of the stages and which 3 series have the new music icons.

1. Inceniroar. Getting it out since its most likely. While I would rather have Gardevoir, I can't argue he is popular, gamefreak is pushing him hard, and he could have a very unique moveset. He would not get a stage and already is in the pokemon music slot(odd mario has 2 slots yet pokemon only has 1 huh?)

2. Shantae. So many circumstancal evidence is pointing towards her in. I really feel like she will be in this game. She would get a stage and one of the music icons.

3. A Retro. Is so hard to predict what sakurai would pick but we can be sure he will put one in. My want is Donbe and Hikari but my money is on Lip or Mach Rider. Lip has had an item in the game since melee and the only series that has an item in every game but no character tied to it. There are smash only items bit lip's stick is from the Panel de Pon series. Mach rider though could be something sakurai wants to do to rep old racing games and have Excite bike tied into their attacks. They wouldn't have a music icon, but they could have a stage. Retro hasn't always had a stage so its possible this newcomer would not have one.

4. A Square Enix Character, Either Geno, or a Dragon Quest rep(with the other getting DLC most likely). Geno is a huge fan favorite and we know Sakurai wanted to add him into Brawl(he said so himself) so I think he has a super high chance of making it in. However, its not just Sakurai that has the word, he needs to work with square. While nintendo and square are so close now, and I can see them agreeing to Geno, its possible they may want to represent their other huge series. The grandaddy of all RJPG's, its biggest series in japan, Dragon Quest. So far most of the reveals have been very NA and EU focused, but a dragon quest pic would be a massive nod to the japanese audiance to the game. I can easily see them going this route, and putting geno as early DLC(to maybe help sell the DLC program) Even if they put Geno in base, a GQ rep would easily be a DLC choice. They would get a new stage, and would get a Music Icon(Geno and DQ music is probably a lot cheaper then FF music)

After basically finishing this long post I decided to change this to Geno Base roster. While I see it still happening, for this example i'm going with Geno, as it fits a bit better. I didn't want to delete what I wrote so I striked this and the last 2 original points out just to see my reasoning. With Geno he could get a stage, but not his own music Icon. I still feel though that Dragon Quest is a very high chance as DLC, as I'm sure they would want to push this series as its reputation and gaming legacy is unmatched.

5. Elma OR Bandana Waddle Dee. if we get any more new unique fighters from an existing series, it would be one of these 2. Elma , and the Xenoblade series is a favorite of Sakurai, and he may want to give X some love in this game, as XB2 was too early in development for Rex and Pyra(who I see easily as DLC) Elma has a high chance because of that. However, Bandana Waddle Dee's popularity is freaking massive it seems like, and is a Sakurai created character. its possible he could be in over Elma. My money is on Elma, but wanted to list Waddle Dee as I can see it. No new stage's for either and they already have series Icons.

6. Isaac, OR Banjo and Kazooie. This is such a hard choice for me to make, and some people may say, replace the 4th choice with one of these, but With the evidence shown I cannot(Unless certain things happen which I explain. If both of these get in, the would both need a music icon... and that would be 4 Music icons, when we only have room for 3. They would also both get stages, which would give us 6 stages, when we only have room for 5. HOWEVER, its possible the retro won't get a stage, and if its Geno he may not have a music Icon. if those things happen, then yes the 5th slot could be replaced with one from here. If I wasn't so torn on Geno or Dragon Quest character, I would do that. I just cannot ignore the fact that DQ could happen over geno for base game, but I would like either option..

As I stated in the other non striked part for 4, and with what I said in 6, gonna go with my gut after thinking it ou. I still feel like dragon quest is just as likely as a base game and geno as DLC, which would mean I would have to go with my original striked words, and thats why I left them there so you can see those thoughts. However, for simplicity sake and going the more likely route, i had to change. I'll quickly redo a shorter 5 and 6 below.

5. Isaac. Feel like this is super popular, underated game. Most likely was decently high in the polls, which is being looked at closely. plus Golden sun did get its copyright renewed earlier then normal for nintendo just doing their auto renewals.

6. Banjo and Kazooie. Would be the most hype way to finish, and with Verg talking about he keeps hearing about a likely Minecrafted themed stage or content, I see Sakurai getting the bear and the bird into smash as well. he Wanted them in Melee, and this would be a huge milestone for many gamers. Would have a stage and music Icon(the Mine craft stage coming as well but its music would be under other.

As for the echos.

1. Ken: While I want Akuma, I am accepting Ken is happening.

2. Shadow. Other then ken he just makes the most sense for an echo.

3. Dixie Kong. I know I may get crap but isabelle doesn't solidify Dixie as being unique. If she was going to be in as a unique she would have appeared with K Rool, and that end part of the trailer just screens "Start of dixie echo trailer". Plus, Isabelle is MUCH bigger then Dixie and I don't think Sakurai could make a character that important an echo. Dixie will have the chrom treatment.

4. Medusa. Another Villain, and our first female villain. Could be a super easy echo of Palutena, just replace down b with Heavenly light(but dakr of course), add dark and snake effects to some moves over the wings, and you are sold. Plus she is a Sakurai baby so it would be easy to get her in.

5. Black Shadow. Melee Ganondorf, but even more like falcon. same run pose, lose the unique tilt A and any other uniqe moves melee ganondorf had, and you got a Melee playstyle basically back, like with Pichu and Young Link.

6. Impa. If Mario and FE are getting an echo, Zelda is too. Impa is a staple of the series in multiple games, so her being a rep as a clone of shielk makes sense. Now what version they would use is anyones guess. I would love hyrule warrios looks but that may be somewhat tied to Techmo, so I can see either OoT look or Skyward sword look(as thats one of the main 3d zelda games not represented by a character design(Shiek still seems to be sporting the if she was in twilit princess look)

So, those are my choices, and the long reasons how I got to this number, and how the box theory is totally stupid and debunked in my eyes. sorry for the massive post... I needed to get that out there

 

[Shinuto]

Try playing Smash with a keyboard...especially a fan-made Smash.

Not using your PS3/PS4 controller sey up for PC games

come on man, its not hard to set up.

 

[Veodok]

Not using your PS3/PS4 controller sey up for PC games

come on man, its not hard to set up.

True. I usually just hook up my Gamecube controller if I'm going to play games like that.

 

[meleebrawler]

O_o... Ok?
I never played the actual smash bros crusade game, but the person appeared to favor the harpy form so that's mainly what I saw. In the video it seemed exactly as you said they're all good for different scenarios. What I thought I saw was monkey is good for fast moves and damage building, the elephant was good for the killing blow and reduced knockback, and the harpy was good for recovery and keeping the opponent from recovering. Though it's similar to pokemon trainer (if the trainers hopped into the fight themselves) it seems like a good conglomerate of all of her abilities.

See that's the thing, newcomers, especially those from third parties recently are quite insistent on bringing at least one completely unique thing to the table. Having Shantae bring what is essentially a watered down version of Pokemon Trainer is not what I want to see.

Monkey... what damage? It has lousy reach and I didn't see any combos from it. Ground mobility is all it's good for, and as I said earlier, if you're only using a form for very specific niches or roles, you'd be better off just implementing them naturally instead of forcing an additional step just to use it.

Pokemon Trainer is balanced so that all of it's forms can be viable in any scenario, even if some are better at certain than others. I don't see why I should pick this Shantae over him/her. I couldn't care less if all her moves are represented if they result in something sub-par put together.

 

[Freelance Spy]

ah dammit I doubleposted.

Dyllybirdy is gonna arrest you.

 

[Red Dead Redeemed]

Wait what the hell happened to DyllyBirdy!? I just dipped out of the thread for one day and now he's potentially (knock on wood) dead!? What the **** happened?

 

[LaBeteNoire]

Well been trying to keep m mind positive with smash. With Dyl and the box theory, i just needed to think. warning this is a massive text post, sorry about that. I would normally make my own thread but i beleive thats frowned here. I am probabaly put this in the newcomer disscussion thread as well, but as I main her and Medusa threads I wanted to post this here first.

I am still pretty sure that box is just a mock up. quickly photoshopped together to show a general idea of what the box will look like. I am sure we are getting more then 2 fighters base. Very sure. In fact been thinking just how many, and I am still sure that our final base is 84, due to smash down.

However,, the question is, how many does smashdown, count characters? Does it count them by places on the character select screen, like the Box does(which is saying we have a total of 70 characters right now including isabelle) or does it count on how Sakurai is actually counting characters, shown on the about page on the smash website. Remember how I showed that it used to say we are currently at 71? Now look at the site.

Spoiler: Large pitcure inside

Now why is this different? well its the Mii Fighters. They use 1 box on the character select screen, but count as 3 fighters. Also, pokemon also is 3 characters in 1 slot, but counts as 1 fighter as you do get to play as all 3 fighters in 1, unlike with mii fighter

This could punch a hole at the box thoery that says 72 fits for smashdown, because if smashdown lets you use each mii fighter, with Ken and Inceniroar thats 74 fighters. But thats not why I brought this up.

I am going to assume Sakurai is going to end this game saying 84 fighters in the game on that screen there. so that means 12 more fighters. if we were gonna go with how everyone is saying we have 70 character slots currently(since mii fighter uses 1) that would have left us with 14 more characters coming, which is incorrect. 12 more are coming based on that number of 72 selectable characters are in the game.

Now, how many are echos, how many are newcomers, and how many are from returning series? I looked at 2 things: The stage selection screen(tied to Corocoro 108 stages plus 1 DLC button), and the music player screen. First, the stage selection as thats breif. we know hthere are currently 6 blank spots, and sakurai wouldn't just leave blank spots. He did on the 3ds but I assume thats due to hardware issues and saved those blank spots for the DLC, which it filled. He didn't do that in wii u, which DLC got its own button. This one I feel will follow the later, with, if we are gettin a create a stage back, becoming a tab like in Wii u

Now, newcomers that are from existing series have not gotten any stages tied to them. I think this will countinue to be the case, save for maybe Geno, who may count as a Mario character for music, which I will get more into. So, at most, 5 brand new franchises, if each got new stages, though a retro may not. still, lets go with 5 for this example.

Butwe can further how many newfranchises we can expect, by looking at the sound test screen. as sakurai stated. the music in the game is organised by series, but some series is placed in other if they don't have a stage, or they themselves don''t have much music tied to it. for the Later, ROB, Duck Hunt, and Ice Climbers all are in other). Knowing that, Here is the end of the screen.

Spoiler: Another large screen

As you can see, there is room for 3 more series to fit. The pokemon new comer, and the retro I am sure we are getting, will most likely not get their own screen spot. Also, to help debunk the box theory, more so then the stage selection screen as we could get 5 stages not tied to newcomers, we have 32 music icons listed, which includes and all and 2 mario ones. why would Sakurai leave space open for 3 when he could have fit the 32 icons easily into a 4x8 layout, but instead he did a 5x7 layout. the only reason is we have 3 more series getting music selections, and the box theory cannot fit 3 more series, and verg's 2 picks would not give us 3 new series, in fact it gives us none. so we know for sure that 3 newcomers will be from new series, and retro would not be counted towards that.

So, with those thoughts out, that leaves us with newcomers: 1 new pokemon(looking to be inceniroar if Verg is correct), 1 new retro, and 3 new series fully. 5 new comers at the very least are still coming. The last bit is a bit less solid, but fits how Sakurai could work and whats he doing. If we end with 5 newcomers, that would give us 73 numbered fighters, since echos share numbers. Sakurai I don't feel would end on an odd number. Just feels... wrong almost. so 1 more newcomer will give us 74, and I feel that is were he will stop for the base game, in terms of full on newcomers that get their own number.

So that leaves us with echos, and thats easy. we said there should be 84 total selectable fighters in this game, and we needed 12 to hit that. with 6 Full newcomers, that leaves us with 6 echos to fill those out.

As to who those fighters are. I'll go into my predictions/wants. I do feel that Verg is probably right on Inceniroar and Ken, though I would rather have Gardevoir and Akuma. so first, my predictect/wanted remaining newcomers. as well as noting which is getting one of the stages and which 3 series have the new music icons.

1. Inceniroar. Getting it out since its most likely. While I would rather have Gardevoir, I can't argue he is popular, gamefreak is pushing him hard, and he could have a very unique moveset. He would not get a stage and already is in the pokemon music slot(odd mario has 2 slots yet pokemon only has 1 huh?)

2. Shantae. So many circumstancal evidence is pointing towards her in. I really feel like she will be in this game. She would get a stage and one of the music icons.

3. A Retro. Is so hard to predict what sakurai would pick but we can be sure he will put one in. My want is Donbe and Hikari but my money is on Lip or Mach Rider. Lip has had an item in the game since melee and the only series that has an item in every game but no character tied to it. There are smash only items bit lip's stick is from the Panel de Pon series. Mach rider though could be something sakurai wants to do to rep old racing games and have Excite bike tied into their attacks. They wouldn't have a music icon, but they could have a stage. Retro hasn't always had a stage so its possible this newcomer would not have one.

4. A Square Enix Character, Either Geno, or a Dragon Quest rep(with the other getting DLC most likely). Geno is a huge fan favorite and we know Sakurai wanted to add him into Brawl(he said so himself) so I think he has a super high chance of making it in. However, its not just Sakurai that has the word, he needs to work with square. While nintendo and square are so close now, and I can see them agreeing to Geno, its possible they may want to represent their other huge series. The grandaddy of all RJPG's, its biggest series in japan, Dragon Quest. So far most of the reveals have been very NA and EU focused, but a dragon quest pic would be a massive nod to the japanese audiance to the game. I can easily see them going this route, and putting geno as early DLC(to maybe help sell the DLC program) Even if they put Geno in base, a GQ rep would easily be a DLC choice. They would get a new stage, and would get a Music Icon(Geno and DQ music is probably a lot cheaper then FF music)

After basically finishing this long post I decided to change this to Geno Base roster. While I see it still happening, for this example i'm going with Geno, as it fits a bit better. I didn't want to delete what I wrote so I striked this and the last 2 original points out just to see my reasoning. With Geno he could get a stage, but not his own music Icon. I still feel though that Dragon Quest is a very high chance as DLC, as I'm sure they would want to push this series as its reputation and gaming legacy is unmatched.

5. Elma OR Bandana Waddle Dee. if we get any more new unique fighters from an existing series, it would be one of these 2. Elma , and the Xenoblade series is a favorite of Sakurai, and he may want to give X some love in this game, as XB2 was too early in development for Rex and Pyra(who I see easily as DLC) Elma has a high chance because of that. However, Bandana Waddle Dee's popularity is freaking massive it seems like, and is a Sakurai created character. its possible he could be in over Elma. My money is on Elma, but wanted to list Waddle Dee as I can see it. No new stage's for either and they already have series Icons.

6. Isaac, OR Banjo and Kazooie. This is such a hard choice for me to make, and some people may say, replace the 4th choice with one of these, but With the evidence shown I cannot(Unless certain things happen which I explain. If both of these get in, the would both need a music icon... and that would be 4 Music icons, when we only have room for 3. They would also both get stages, which would give us 6 stages, when we only have room for 5. HOWEVER, its possible the retro won't get a stage, and if its Geno he may not have a music Icon. if those things happen, then yes the 5th slot could be replaced with one from here. If I wasn't so torn on Geno or Dragon Quest character, I would do that. I just cannot ignore the fact that DQ could happen over geno for base game, but I would like either option..

As I stated in the other non striked part for 4, and with what I said in 6, gonna go with my gut after thinking it ou. I still feel like dragon quest is just as likely as a base game and geno as DLC, which would mean I would have to go with my original striked words, and thats why I left them there so you can see those thoughts. However, for simplicity sake and going the more likely route, i had to change. I'll quickly redo a shorter 5 and 6 below.

5. Isaac. Feel like this is super popular, underated game. Most likely was decently high in the polls, which is being looked at closely. plus Golden sun did get its copyright renewed earlier then normal for nintendo just doing their auto renewals.

6. Banjo and Kazooie. Would be the most hype way to finish, and with Verg talking about he keeps hearing about a likely Minecrafted themed stage or content, I see Sakurai getting the bear and the bird into smash as well. he Wanted them in Melee, and this would be a huge milestone for many gamers. Would have a stage and music Icon(the Mine craft stage coming as well but its music would be under other.

As for the echos.

1. Ken: While I want Akuma, I am accepting Ken is happening.

2. Shadow. Other then ken he just makes the most sense for an echo.

3. Dixie Kong. I know I may get crap but isabelle doesn't solidify Dixie as being unique. If she was going to be in as a unique she would have appeared with K Rool, and that end part of the trailer just screens "Start of dixie echo trailer". Plus, Isabelle is MUCH bigger then Dixie and I don't think Sakurai could make a character that important an echo. Dixie will have the chrom treatment.

4. Medusa. Another Villain, and our first female villain. Could be a super easy echo of Palutena, just replace down b with Heavenly light(but dakr of course), add dark and snake effects to some moves over the wings, and you are sold. Plus she is a Sakurai baby so it would be easy to get her in.

5. Black Shadow. Melee Ganondorf, but even more like falcon. same run pose, lose the unique tilt A and any other uniqe moves melee ganondorf had, and you got a Melee playstyle basically back, like with Pichu and Young Link.

6. Impa. If Mario and FE are getting an echo, Zelda is too. Impa is a staple of the series in multiple games, so her being a rep as a clone of shielk makes sense. Now what version they would use is anyones guess. I would love hyrule warrios looks but that may be somewhat tied to Techmo, so I can see either OoT look or Skyward sword look(as thats one of the main 3d zelda games not represented by a character design(Shiek still seems to be sporting the if she was in twilit princess look)

So, those are my choices, and the long reasons how I got to this number, and how the box theory is totally stupid and debunked in my eyes. sorry for the massive post... I needed to get that out there

Wow, you put tons of thought into all that and I'd say your reasoning is very sound. I would like to add that a Medusa echo fighter of Palutena is also very likely because Plautena used to have 12 different special moves in Wii U. Now that custom moves aren't a thing, I could see sakurai wanting to put those unique moves to use on two other fighters, Medusa and Viridi. I could see one being base and theother being DLC, or both being DLC.

But honestly, if we can get Shantae and Dixie in this game from the get go... Then there is very little more i could reasonably ask for.