Shantae, the Half Genie Protector of Scuttle Town! (A Switch To A New WayForward)

[GoldLiger]

Well whatever the case we of the #ShantaeForUltimate crew can only hope that Sakurai sees what we see in her to make her a new playable fighter(or if not at least as one of the DLC fighters after Ultimate releases).

 

[MattOnwheels]

Bump for support!

 

[Xevious 1]

Shantae has a lot going for her
-Potential for really unique move set
-Series started Nintendo and has mostly remained exclusive to them.
-Has 4 games with potential for more
-female representation
--increasing popularity

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Not sure if this has been a topic of discussion already or not but even if it has been, I would think it's still an interesting one: How do you think Shantae's dancing mechanic would be implemented if she were to make it in Smash? Do you really think it's feasible for her to switch between various forms with completely different movesets or would it make more sense for her different B moves to just be one of her transformations (with her quickly changing back to human)? Think something like an Elephant charge for Side B and a Harpy dive for Up B.

In the latter case, I wonder how much of the dancing would have to be sacrificed to create something viable; she'd virtually have to not dance at all which kind of eliminates the premier crux of her character. However, in the former's case where she'd have full-on movesets for each form (working similarly to Pokemon Trainer as a 3-in-one character) it could be seen as more development time than her character's worth, in the eyes of Sakurai.

Is there a compromise here?

 

[perfectchaos83]

Not sure if this has been a topic of discussion already or not but even if it has been, I would think it's still an interesting one: How do you think Shantae's dancing mechanic would be implemented if she were to make it in Smash? Do you really think it's feasible for her to switch between various forms with completely different movesets or would it make more sense for her different B moves to just be one of her transformations (with her quickly changing back to human)? Think something like an Elephant charge for Side B and a Harpy dive for Up B.

In the latter case, I wonder how much of the dancing would have to be sacrificed to create something viable; she'd virtually have to not dance at all which kind of eliminates the premier crux of her character. However, in the former's case where she'd have full-on movesets for each form (working similarly to Pokemon Trainer as a 3-in-one character) could be seen as more development time than her character's worth, in the eyes of Sakurai.

Is there a compromise here?

I posted my idea on one of the previous pages. I think the dancing and transformations are better kept as Smash attacks (Maybe referencing her major transformations like the monkey, Elephant and Harpy). Dancing Charges the Smash attack and the Transformation is the attack. Shantae has a huge repertoire of moves to use, so I think keeping it simple while referencing everything She can do should be a priority rather than try to make a needlessly complex multi-form character.

 

[Luminario]

Not sure if this has been a topic of discussion already or not but even if it has been, I would think it's still an interesting one: How do you think Shantae's dancing mechanic would be implemented if she were to make it in Smash? Do you really think it's feasible for her to switch between various forms with completely different movesets or would it make more sense for her different B moves to just be one of her transformations (with her quickly changing back to human)? Think something like an Elephant charge for Side B and a Harpy dive for Up B.

In the latter case, I wonder how much of the dancing would have to be sacrificed to create something viable; she'd virtually have to not dance at all which kind of eliminates the premier crux of her character. However, in the former's case where she'd have full-on movesets for each form (working similarly to Pokemon Trainer as a 3-in-one character) it could be seen as more development time than her character's worth, in the eyes of Sakurai.

Is there a compromise here?

I don't think the trasformations should have full movesets themselves. People elaborated better than I could in here a while back but the basic idea is the transformations offer Shantae utility with only 1 or 2 attacks themselves. Lets say there would be 4 different transformations: Monkey would offer speed and a small hitbox while offering Monkey Bullet as a slowed down Fox side B along with a simple monkey claw attack, Elephant offers pure power and shield breaker with a headbutt attack and a ground pound, Spider offers projectiles with spider venom for a long range pestering with potential poison damage and maybe even a spider web move, and Harpy is mainly used for edgeguarding with multiple jumps and weak talon and feather attacks. They could make it so you can only transform while on the ground (but can turn back to regular Shantae at any time with B) and if you enter any kind of hitstun you immediately turn back into regular Shantae.
Just like in the games the different forms should only give Shantae utility when she needs it, as opposed to a Pokemon Trainer-esque gimmick where they're all equal.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

l-snip-

That certainly sounds like an interesting proposal. So if I'm reading this right, she'd basically have a very limited moveset whenever she transforms and each form would give her access to a different B special? I'm supposing those specials are cut off from her in genie mode as well as opposed to being replaced with something else, right? (Like, you could only use her Side B if you were in Elephant form, etc.)

Hmm... That could end up making her a really difficult character to use but it does sound pretty unique. I will say though, I really like perfectchaos83 's proposal quite a bit. Could be pretty strange in that case to see her shining yellow as she dances though. xD

On the flipside, using the dance in place of the charge-up for her smash attacks could give her a unique meta in that you wouldn't know which smash is coming until it's released.

 

[Luminario]

That certainly sounds like an interesting proposal. So if I'm reading this right, she'd basically have a very limited moveset whenever she transforms and each form would give her access to a different B special? I'm supposing those specials are cut off from her in genie mode as well as opposed to being replaced with something else, right? (Like, you could only use her Side B if you were in Elephant form, etc.)

Hmm... That could end up making her a really difficult character to use but it does sound pretty unique. I will say though, I really like perfectchaos83 's proposal quite a bit. Could be pretty strange in that case to see her shining yellow as she dances though. xD

On the flipside, using the dance in place of the charge-up for her smash attacks could give her a unique meta in that you wouldn't know which smash is coming until it's released.

Kinda yes and no. In her regular Genie form she'd have access to a regular up, side, and down B, with B being the dance where you pick a form to change into like Shulk's new Monado Arts special where he picks the direction of the buff he wants to use. In her dance transformations she'd have something like a single ground and aerial attack by pressing A along with instantly transforming back with B, just like how in the games the different forms are simply extensions of Shantae for utility purposes as opposed to a Pokemon Trainer gimmick. I wish I was better at explaining how I envision her, but the moveset in the OP has the same general idea.
Putting the transformations into her moveset like smashes or aerial attack is an easy way to getting them in there with little fuss, but I feel that loses a key mechanic that makes Shantae, Shantae. If they're going down that road then I'd at least like to see the forms as specials, like Harpy for up B or Elephant ground pound for down B. It makes them feel a little more special.

 

[Xevious 1]

I think her transformations will work similar to Kirby's down special. Where she transforms then transforms back when the move is over.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

Kinda yes and no. In her regular Genie form she'd have access to a regular up, side, and down B, with B being the dance where you pick a form to change into like Shulk's new Monado Arts special where he picks the direction of the buff he wants to use. In her dance transformations she'd have something like a single ground and aerial attack by pressing A along with instantly transforming back with B, just like how in the games the different forms are simply extensions of Shantae for utility purposes as opposed to a Pokemon Trainer gimmick. I wish I was better at explaining how I envision her, but the moveset in the OP has the same general idea.
Putting the transformations into her moveset like smashes or aerial attack is an easy way to getting them in there with little fuss, but I feel that loses a key mechanic that makes Shantae, Shantae. If they're going down that road then I'd at least like to see the forms as specials, like Harpy for up B or Elephant ground pound for down B. It makes them feel a little more special.

Hm... Yeah, that could work. I'd like that.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it!~

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Kinda yes and no. In her regular Genie form she'd have access to a regular up, side, and down B, with B being the dance where you pick a form to change into like Shulk's new Monado Arts special where he picks the direction of the buff he wants to use. In her dance transformations she'd have something like a single ground and aerial attack by pressing A along with instantly transforming back with B, just like how in the games the different forms are simply extensions of Shantae for utility purposes as opposed to a Pokemon Trainer gimmick. I wish I was better at explaining how I envision her, but the moveset in the OP has the same general idea.
Putting the transformations into her moveset like smashes or aerial attack is an easy way to getting them in there with little fuss, but I feel that loses a key mechanic that makes Shantae, Shantae. If they're going down that road then I'd at least like to see the forms as specials, like Harpy for up B or Elephant ground pound for down B. It makes them feel a little more special.

Seems like the fairest compromise.

With that all said, I'm not sure if the crab form could be incorporated for crawling evasion purposes. Maybe access it via one of the taunts, which just so happens to be a dance? It'd be a handy taunt like Luigi's.

 

[DoctorSanity]

Personally I'd go for smash attacks for the transformation attacks and have her pirate's curse attacks for specials cause I thought pirate's curse was her funnest moveset in any of her games kjdhsfskjhfk

But admittedly I am really excited for the potential she has in this new game. The Pokemon Trainer's near seamless switching between pokemon makes Shantae feel like she'd be coming in at the exact right time. It's nice to be past the hardware limitations of Smash 4 to really think of how a character can operate.

Shantae really has some of the highest diversity of potential moves of any newcomer to Smash, which is why it's so fun to talk about potential interpretations to her move lists. Shantae and Nega-Shantae in Smash Crusade are super fun to me because they're really two fully separate interpretations at how one could go about making a Shantae fighter!

Hey how would you guys feel if the magic items Shantae uses were repurposed for her aerials? spike ball for her neutral, fire for her fair, mega puff for her dair, etc?

 

[Wademan94]

Kinda yes and no. In her regular Genie form she'd have access to a regular up, side, and down B, with B being the dance where you pick a form to change into like Shulk's new Monado Arts special where he picks the direction of the buff he wants to use. In her dance transformations she'd have something like a single ground and aerial attack by pressing A along with instantly transforming back with B, just like how in the games the different forms are simply extensions of Shantae for utility purposes as opposed to a Pokemon Trainer gimmick. I wish I was better at explaining how I envision her, but the moveset in the OP has the same general idea.
Putting the transformations into her moveset like smashes or aerial attack is an easy way to getting them in there with little fuss, but I feel that loses a key mechanic that makes Shantae, Shantae. If they're going down that road then I'd at least like to see the forms as specials, like Harpy for up B or Elephant ground pound for down B. It makes them feel a little more special.

That's exactly what I envisioned for Shantae's moveset concerning her transformations, it'd basically be how she transformed in Half-Genie Hero. Only difference is that I had two attacks for each form in mind, one for neutral attack and one for neutral special, and pressing the B button while shielding to transform back instantly. Here's specifically how I'm handling said move:

Spoiler: Neutral Special Transformations

Forward-Monkey (Low Damage, High Jump, Wall Climb)
Attack: Monkey Claw (overhead slash, can easily combo with it)
Special: Monkey Bullet (slightly slower than Fox Illusion)

Down-Elephant (High Damage, Low Speed)
Attack: Elephant Dash (slow but powerful dash attack)
Special: Elephant Stomp (high knockback)

Back-Spider (double jump allows her to use webbing to pull herself up if a surface is above)
Attack: Spider Leg (performs an uppercut with her frontal leg similar to the Bonelegs enemy in HGH)
Special: Spider Venom (continuously deals damage similar to flowers)

Up-Harpy (Less Traction, Multiple Jumps)
Attack: Harpy Talon (overhead slash, potential Meteor Smash?)
Special: Harpy Feather (low damage, but can fire multiple at a time)

Also, does anybody mind if I repost my full ideas for Shantae in Ultimate? I tried to a couple pages back and I wanted to get more feedback, but I feel like they kinda got lost in the shuffle

 

[Luminario]

Seems like the fairest compromise.

With that all said, I'm not sure if the crab form could be incorporated for crawling evasion purposes. Maybe access it via one of the taunts, which just so happens to be a dance? It'd be a handy taunt like Luigi's.

I don't think we really need the crab form to be honest. The most iconic transformations are Monkey, Elephant, Harpy, and Spider, and Shantae already has both a crouch and a crawl. If we're gonna get a transforming taunt then the Blobfish needs to be in there.

Hey how would you guys feel if the magic items Shantae uses were repurposed for her aerials? spike ball for her neutral, fire for her fair, mega puff for her dair, etc?

It could work. They'd probably have to be toned down a bit from their original state but it works.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I don't think we really need the crab form to be honest. The most iconic transformations are Monkey, Elephant, Harpy, and Spider, and Shantae already has both a crouch and a crawl. If we're gonna get a transforming taunt then the Blobfish needs to be in there.

It could work. They'd probably have to be toned down a bit from their original state but it works.

I can live with that. I just find the crab form the cutest, is all.

 

[Luminario]

I can live with that. I just find the crab form the cutest, is all.

Well the crab could be put in as another dance transformation if they really wanted to. The mermaid bubble projectile could be given to the crab along with it having invulnerability by crouching. If their going with smash attack transformations then the crab works nicely as a down smash to snip at enemies either side.

 

[Deleted member]

For game flow reasons I always thought her transformations should be instant. However her taunts would be her dance moves, and if you do the correct dance you can transform that way.

 

[Dixie Kong]

I support Shantae for Smash! I really wanted her last time around as DLC I remember!

 

[Teeb147]

Anything interesting going on for Shantae these days? Haven't been keeping up too much.
Still supporting her inclusion

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Anything interesting going on for Shantae these days? Haven't been keeping up too much.
Still supporting her inclusion

HGH got all the DLC and an ultimate edition now, so we're pretty much stalling until any clues relating to the possibility of Shantae debuting in Smash crop up.

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

HGH got all the DLC and an ultimate edition now, so we're pretty much stalling until any clues relating to the possibility of Shantae debuting in Smash crop up.

I'm still waiting on my physical rewards from the Kickstarter campaign. The t-shirt design they settled on looks really dope.

I hope they made enough money off of HGH to create a new title in the not so distant future. I loved Shantae in HD but if they need to return to something more pixel-y in order to keep making games, I'd rather just have the games (with cool character art).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I'm still waiting on my physical rewards from the Kickstarter campaign. The t-shirt design they settled on looks really dope.

I hope they made enough money off of HGH to create a new title in the not so distant future. I loved Shantae in HD but if they need to return to something more pixel-y in order to keep making games, I'd rather just have the games (with cool character art).

With any luck, they got enough sales from Mummy Demastered to break even, too. Licensed titles are their main bread and butter, when necessary.

 

[Wademan94]

For game flow reasons I always thought her transformations should be instant. However her taunts would be her dance moves, and if you do the correct dance you can transform that way.

I had the same idea for the dance moves for her taunts, but as cool as that idea would be as an alternate way to activate the transformations, there's 6 dance moves in the original GBC game and only 3 taunts, so I don't see that working out unfortunately since some use the A and B button. The only dances that could work that way are the monkey and maybe the elephant if they were able to alter the taunt command to have the side directions do a different taunt (I did have an Easter egg idea for that to have Shantae briefly turn into a Tinkerbat since you can activate that dance with the d-pad moves)

 

[Deleted member]

I had the same idea for the dance moves for her taunts, but as cool as that idea would be as an alternate way to activate the transformations, there's 6 dance moves in the original GBC game and only 3 taunts, so I don't see that working out unfortunately since some use the A and B button. The only dances that could work that way are the monkey and maybe the elephant if they were able to alter the taunt command to have the side directions do a different taunt (I did have an Easter egg idea for that to have Shantae briefly turn into a Tinkerbat since you can activate that dance with the d-pad moves)

We are talking about Sakurai here. The man who does not shy away from character unique mechanics that dont follow the standard smash rules if it fits the character, He gave Ryu his traditional quarter circle punch as an alt/better way to do his Hadouken. Mega Man's standard attack is a projectile, Don't ever say something wouldn't work.

It could be entirely plausible because Shantae's dance moves are so important to her he could make Shantae a unique taunt system. Like she forgoes her 3 taunts and pressing any taunt she goes in to dance mode and then you can have access to all 4 directional buttons plus A and B, shielding or completing a transformation would take you out of it.

 

[Staarih]

I hope they made enough money off of HGH to create a new title in the not so distant future. I loved Shantae in HD but if they need to return to something more pixel-y in order to keep making games, I'd rather just have the games (with cool character art).

I'm kinda thinking HGH is/was successful enough for WayForward. With the Day One Edition selling out for the Switch, the demand is there so I'm thinking many would have gone and downloaded HGH. Well, I surely hope they got their moneys worth, I'd totally be up for a new Shantae game in the near future haha! I'd like them to try out something new (while keeping the core elements of the game of course) to evolve the series even further. WayForward has been awfully quiet with their tweets and whatnot, basically posting only fan art and promoting sales, so who knows what plans they have at the moment.

Anyway, I've noticed myself really envisioning Shantae in Smash, I even had a dream of her confirmed in Smash lol. She would fit so well and just the thought of a beautiful, polished render of her makes me excited!
As for the dancing mechanic discussed here: I (also) see it being incorporated in her Smash attacks - the charging would essentially act as the dance, and the attack itself would be whatever she transforms into, and after it she'd just be back to normal. Whole movesets for all the transformations would go a little overboard imo. But who knows what route they'd take. As long as I'll get to see the most memorable transformations in some capacity (monkey, elephant and harpy... maybe spider and mermaid as well, as they seem to be popular ones too), I'll be a happy man.

 

[Wademan94]

We are talking about Sakurai here. The man who does not shy away from character unique mechanics that dont follow the standard smash rules if it fits the character, He gave Ryu his traditional quarter circle punch as an alt/better way to do his Hadouken. Mega Man's standard attack is a projectile, Don't ever say something wouldn't work.

It could be entirely plausible because Shantae's dance moves are so important to her he could make Shantae a unique taunt system. Like she forgoes her 3 taunts and pressing any taunt she goes in to dance mode and then you can have access to all 4 directional buttons plus A and B, shielding or completing a transformation would take you out of it.

I will say that it would be a pretty unique idea, but what kind of benefit did you have in mind for her transforming this way? Keep in mind that the mechanic is rhythm based and it takes a considerable amount of time in the original game to use. For a fighting game, even one like Smash, it'd be difficult to find an opportunity to use a system like this (especially since Sakurai wants to increase the gameplay speed this time around), Even if it was just an optional system, there's needs to be a big enough reward so it'd be worth the time to pull it off.

 

[Deleted member]

I will say that it would be a pretty unique idea, but what kind of benefit did you have in mind for her transforming this way? Keep in mind that the mechanic is rhythm based and it takes a considerable amount of time in the original game to use. For a fighting game, even one like Smash, it'd be difficult to find an opportunity to use a system like this (especially since Sakurai wants to increase the gameplay speed this time around), Even if it was just an optional system, there's needs to be a big enough reward so it'd be worth the time to pull it off.

I though that at first too. i toyed with the idea of increased damage output for short while, or any number or buffs, but I couldn't decide on anything, and for the sake of argument
i decided to leave it as a sorta easter egg.

 

[DoctorSanity]

Out of curiosity today I just looked up interest over time of Shantae (put up against Shovel Knight for comparison)

What do you guys think? It does make sense to me, I didn't think Shantae hit the high that Shovel Knight was given, but it was nice to see HGH get pretty good exposure

 

[SneakyLink]

Out of curiosity today I just looked up interest over time of Shantae (put up against Shovel Knight for comparison)

View attachment 152804

What do you guys think? It does make sense to me, I didn't think Shantae hit the high that Shovel Knight was given, but it was nice to see HGH get pretty good exposure

I think the graph is a bit biased mostly because Shovel Knight is a newer character. Of course people are gonna Google him. That, and it's the title of the game so it definitely will get more searches.

 

[DoctorSanity]

I think the graph is a bit biased mostly because Shovel Knight is a newer character. Of course people are gonna Google him. That, and it's the title of the game so it definitely will get more searches.

Oh, that's a good point! I looked up Half-Genie Hero and stuff and there wasn't much but it was definitely there.

 

[DoctorSanity]

Either way I'm really happy with how far Shantae's come over the years, Shovel Knight'll always be a huge success but sometimes it's super comforting thinking just how many people Shantae's managed to bring in over the years! Even if she doesn't make it into Smash we'll still have even more popular Shantae to look forward to in the future at this rate! Can't wait to see what new adventures they can think up for her

 

[SneakyLink]

Oh, that's a good point! I looked up Half-Genie Hero and stuff and there wasn't much but it was definitely there.
View attachment 152811

I like the little mountain in December 2016!

Either way, I admit I have little hope for the base game mostly because Shantae, while definitely popular thanks to the ballot, wasn't really popular internationally yet (I do know that the franchise had a niche following at the time). After Pirate's Curse came out in Japan, her popularity exploded. In fact, I hopped on the Charagumin site to see how many non-japan created characters have received figures from them. From what I've seen Shantae and Rottytops (plus whoever won that vote thingie at ) are the only ones. Don't get me wrong, Shantae is my #1 requested fighter, but I feel that her timing is just a smidgen off for the base roster.

Now that I think about it, why is Shantae not in those Indie fighter games?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I like the little mountain in December 2016!

Either way, I admit I have little hope for the base game mostly because Shantae, while definitely popular thanks to the ballot, wasn't really popular internationally yet (I do know that the franchise had a niche following at the time). After Pirate's Curse came out in Japan, her popularity exploded. In fact, I hopped on the Charagumin site to see how many non-japan created characters have received figures from them. From what I've seen Shantae and Rottytops (plus whoever won that vote thingie at ) are the only ones. Don't get me wrong, Shantae is my #1 requested fighter, but I feel that her timing is just a smidgen off for the base roster.

Now that I think about it, why is Shantae not in those Indie fighter games?

She does have the edge in that Shovel Knight didn't make much of a splash over there. DLC might be the best window of opportunity, if Sakurai noticed enough suggestions for her. She might be the next Bayonetta in that sense.

 

[DoctorSanity]

I wouldn't put Shantae immediately out of the run for the base roster just yet!!

I would think due to the ballot, Sakurai should at the very least be aware of the swell of interest for an indie character rep for this Smash

Partially because of how this Smash is being treated I'm very confident at least one indie fighter will be apart of the base roster. The phrase "EVERYONE is here!" hasn't just applied to the return of every character, but it seems to be a statement on the very nature of the game itself. It's essentially THE video game crossover event in all of video game history. So many series are coming together for this entry, and that fact is being celebrated. (Also the classification of the Echo Fighter makes me feel that they're embracing the idea that, hey, even if they really are near identical from the original game too, people still love them enough to be in Smash). Sakurai should hopefully be aware of how indie games contribute to the history of video games.

Of course this is mere speculation, so I'm not getting my hopes too high up! But I'm simply confident that we'll be seeing much more than just a trophy this time around for the indie scene in the base game.

 

[perfectchaos83]

Since we're showing Google analytics, Here's some JP analytics Shantae (Red) vs Shovel Knight (Blue)

Granted, neither of them hold a candle to something Like Touhou in Japan, but It's just a nice comparison to her biggest competition as it were.

 

[DoctorSanity]

Oh wow jeez you weren't kidding when Shantae was much bigger in Japan

 

[perfectchaos83]

Oh wow jeez you weren't kidding when Shantae was much bigger in Japan

That's partly why I included 2014, since that would be before JP got Shantae

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

I'm glad to see that Japan has exquisite taste.

Frankly, I'm disappointed Shantae isn't bigger stateside. Her games are genuinely fun and funny. =P

 

[DoctorSanity]

I'm glad to see that Japan has exquisite taste.

Frankly, I'm disappointed Shantae isn't bigger stateside. Her games are genuinely fun and funny. =P

She's getting a lot more recognition which is nice!

have any of you followed Indivisible? I managed to get a pledge to a pretty big amount to that game, I was so excited when Shantae was announced for it.

Oh and also I remember hearing Shantae was in Runbow, is that game any good? I might get it for switch

 

[Jazzy Jinx]

She's getting a lot more recognition which is nice!

have any of you followed Indivisible? I managed to get a pledge to a pretty big amount to that game, I was so excited when Shantae was announced for it.

Oh and also I remember hearing Shantae was in Runbow, is that game any good? I might get it for switch

Woah. Nah, I didn't know that Shantae guest starred in any other games!

I'll have to check that out! =)