Set-ups with Bowser - The Master Plan [WIP]

[Jerodak]

What Jay said.

Although now I don't get why Jerodak is saying ledgetrump to dsmash....

It's when your opponent goes low after the trump and you know they must grab the ledge, you can simply get up and start charging as long as their recovery can't hit you. Dsmash hits on the ledge, so it's not a terrible option. It can also hit certain characters trying to jump over you. It can even beat attempts to hit you if the attack isn't disjointed since they have to stick thier arm or led past a large disjoint before they can reach Bowser unless they are able to come in from directly above. It's not the best option of course, but it is an available option to us so I posted it.

Which options you go for will depend largely on the character you're fighting, some characters will never fall for the down smash, so you'll need to use something else. However, if you see them going low after the trump then you can be pretty sure that the down smash will work, short hop dair would work too though, I'd recommend that instead for characters that can hit you away from the ledge while recovering.

Spoiler

Also, I still kinda like down smash and want to find some uses for it.

 

[Cassius.]

so, what would ever warrant the use of that move over just using DTilt on the ledge in a ledge-trump situation?

 

[Jerodak]

so, what would ever warrant the use of that move over just using DTilt on the ledge in a ledge-trump situation?

Dtilt is an amazing edgeguard move, and it can be useful against characters that think they can safely play around on the ledge, or when a character hangs on the ledge just a little too long, and it can stuff some recovery attempts as well, but there are a few reasons that you wouldn't want to use Dtilt off of a ledge trump.

Getting up to dsmash is faster than getting up, and spacing dtilt, I've noticed that dtilt works best for hitting on the ledge at the tip of the attack, the few times I've tried hitting with the arms it just whiffs over them, so you'd have to get up or roll in then space the dtilt which takes a lot longer than just standing up and charging dsmash. This is important because after getting a ledge trump, every second really counts, your opponent will be doing their best to avoid whatever follow-up you might try while getting back to the stage ASAP. So you won't really have the time to get up and space dtilt, and I wouldn't recommend it even if you did because you could be using that time to charge dsmash instead or for getting ready to use the dair spike. Also, because dsmash is chargeable, if you know they must ledge grab to recover then you can just start charging and let it rip as soon as they touch the ledge. This not only gives you a large punish, but it also creates a threat factor and I've actually gotten a few of my K.Os this way. Dsmash can also hit certain characters attempting to jump past you because the range is larger than it appears and the disjoints can protect you from certain attacks, mainly ones that aren't disjointed enough to safely reach Bowser's hurt box. The only time I wouldn't use dsmash on someone going low after a trump is if It's someone like Marth or Shulk that can hit me off the ledge during the recovery. In which case It might be better to opt for the Dair spike or walk off Bair instead.

 

[Lolo_knight]

HI! side B cancels ALL your landing lag! I use it to bait they come running towards me and meet my punch pivot tilt or if I've seen they like grabing I just evade on spot and tilt back. Or you can land next to them expecting to receive a fair, and throw again a second side b on landing since it comes instantly you'll get them

Another thing, if you're fighting some who shields all your dash attacks you can run into their faces jump and cancel it with down b (you'll get more air and slide farther) you'll most probably break their shields or get them damage.

For on edge spammers I found out that bair when shielded slides them offstage (I have to test this on %'s and weights) and this will get them vulnerable 'cuz they wont expect it.

And I like to get them used to fall on them with dair so they shield it and punish me a bit then I bring the bomb to break shields when I feel they are used to shielding my dair, but this wont work on dodgy spammers.

I have A LOT of trouble with sonic spindash uair combo PLEASE HELP ME... It just has priority over anything.. or I need to time my hit like it's just not funny...
Some trouble with a dodgy mac
and spammy rob

Any advice is welcome =3

 

[Jerodak]

Most of these have been mentioned in other parts of the boards, so I'm just compiling them here for documentation, I currently don't know the exact percent ranges that these work at but I do know that they work from low to mid percent based on the character.

Up throw to Fair: Best used on heavies and fast fallers, but it does register as a combo in training mode if done correctly so possibly a "true" combo.

Down throw to Upair or Fair: Not incredibly consistent but it does work, if the opponent is prone to jumping. It can be a good way to set-up edge guards or landing traps.

Back throw to Fair: Bowser can react incredibly fast from a back throw, so this isn't too hard to get, especially if the opponent is jumping. I haven't tested if it counts as as a combo in training mode or not but from personal experience it's been fairly reliable for me could possibly also do a Bair instead, haven't tested that yet.

I'll look into this a bit further and add more later if something interesting shows up.

 

[MrEh]

Perfectly spaced dash slash into Bowser Bomb at low percents.

Puts the fear of God in people.

 

[Flayl]

Ahaha, awesome, starting Thursday I'll have enough time to finally update this, sorry for the long wait folks

 

[MrEh]

Also a real combo. Can't make this up.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Perfectly spaced dash slash into Bowser Bomb at low percents.

Puts the fear of God in people.

Grounded or Aerial Dash Slash?

 

[MrEh]

Always aerial all the time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I can already see how this works. That's pretty great.

Edit: This combo basically does 30% damage. And if they block and get shield breaked they are probably already dead if they have enough damage on them.

 

[Flayl]

Alright, time to get stuff done! I'll put today's updates here

Aerial Dash Slash really needs its own thread haha. I've managed to get weak aerial dash slash -> slide -> bowser bomb to work as a guaranteed combo at 60% against Dedede, but my lack of skills makes it hard to know when it stops working. If anybody with better spacial and timing sense could look into it that would be great.

 

[S_B]

Man, why couldn't dash slash have been the default klaw?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Man, why couldn't dash slash have been the default klaw?

Because all the projectile toting sissies would cry and Bowser would probably move up a tier.

 

[Flayl]

Uthrow to FAir doesn't work against Sheik or Greninja, and it seems to be easily DI-able (I think that's why I initially crossed it out) but I'll include it on the list, just figuring out which characters it works against

Hrmm against Greninja and Sheik if you double jump immediately and FAir ASAP you can get them until 20% or so

edit: yeah this is really DI dependent, when the AI randomly decides to move the other way it doesn't work

 

[Cryo]

Nair -> up b is very reliable, probably not guaranteed on everyone but from my experience it's never failed on heavies.

 

[Jerodak]

I did some training mode tests, and found out that from 11% on Diddy, that Fair to jab combo will work, and it transitions into a forced tech unless he DI's towards Bowser. Alternatively, it's also possible to use side B for a bit more damage. Furthermore, it seems like hit two of Dtilt forced teching even with DI toward until about 51% It's easily possible to land hit two of Dtilt only when using it to punish rolls, happens for me all the time. These tests were done on Diddy Kong.

Unfortunately I noticed that Training mode seems to affect the damage values of attacks for some reason, so I'm not sure how accurate this is exactly, I'll probably need to find someone to tests these out on to see if they really work.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Training mode always assumes attacks are fresh and does not factor Rage.

 

[Jerodak]

Training mode always assumes attacks are fresh and does not factor Rage.

I'm aware of that, but what I didn't know is that training mode, apparently, doesn't factor freshness at all. Meaning attacks are never actually fresh or stale. If you throw fresh jabs in a normal smash, they do 12%, go to training mode and they do 11, so it seems the freshness bonus is not applied, meaning there's still some differences in knockback because of no freshness bonus and also because of less knockback in general from lower percents. It probably wouldn't affect too much, but it seems like something to be aware of when running tests.

 

[Zethoro]

Training mode always assumes attacks are fresh and does not factor Rage.

Wait, what!? IT DOES!?
...I wish I knew this sooner!

 

[Jeapie]

Hi, I main bowser in this game.
down B/Reverse down B OOS

That is all

 

[Cassius.]

Hi, we main Bowser in this game, too.

We're aware.

 

[Zigsta]

Let's please not spam threads.

I've been landing upthrow>upair consistently on Samus at low percents. Has anyone tested this to the same extent that upthrow>fair has been tested?

 

[Jerodak]

Let's please not spam threads.

I've been landing upthrow>upair consistently on Samus at low percents. Has anyone tested this to the same extent that upthrow>fair has been tested?

I don't doubt that the up air works but it's probably only available on fewer characters because it actually has less vertical range than the Fair. Neutral air has even more vertical reach than that, but it's hitbox can be kinda weird. But Up air is faster than Fair, so it should work as long as they are in range.

 

[theopenlink22]

I like to Up-Throw to Up-Air a few times to make them expect that, then Up-Throw, bait the air dodge, and get that frame trap 3 hit NAIR... Satisfying...

 

[Jerodak]

At low percents, could the up throw to fair be delayed just enough to allow jumping but not enough to allow air-dodging? Most air dodges are frame 3 right? So is it possible to time a one or two frame gap? It'd essentially count as a true combo anyway since there shouldn't be any moves that are fast enough to do anything though the gap if you're timing it correctly. If they tried to jump, then you can just fastfall and pretty much get a free mix-up in your favor on most characters since the only thing most characters have in that situation is an aerial or an air dodge.

Also, at low percents, it seems like Bowser might be able to do something like an up throw to a Ken "combo" at the ledge and the percent is enough to push some characters below where they can recover, and even if they can, it's a forced low recovery. If they are low enough during the dunk then it can actually K.O outright just off of the Upthrow and Fair percentage. At higher percents, it seems like up throw to Fair can still combo on some characters even past 100% unless the combo counter lied to me, in that case it might be useful as a way to K.O if you get a grab near the ledge while facing offstage.

 

[KnightofPizza]

I find that jumping off the ledge to edge-guard and using a Fair is rather reliable, and if they air dodge, you can go back for the Bair and stage spike/launch off the side if the other person is recovering low. Of course, they can always tech it, but it's still possible for your Up-B to connect or even for you to trump from coming back on stage.

 

[Zigsta]

I find that jumping off the ledge to edge-guard and using a Fair is rather reliable, and if they air dodge, you can go back for the Bair and stage spike/launch off the side if the other person is recovering low. Of course, they can always tech it, but it's still possible for your Up-B to connect or even for you to trump from coming back on stage.

Runoff fair is a wonderful edgeguard--just be careful and DON'T miss. Depending on your opponent, they can get back to the stage and abuse the fact that Bowser recovering backwards can't autosnap the ledge. If they're a Samus or CF, for example, they're gonna uptilt spike you for free. This really doesn't happen unless you're playing either someone at a very high level or someone who really knows the Bowser MU.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Runoff fair is a wonderful edgeguard--just be careful and DON'T miss. Depending on your opponent, they can get back to the stage and abuse the fact that Bowser recovering backwards can't autosnap the ledge. If they're a Samus or CF, for example, they're gonna uptilt spike you for free. This really doesn't happen unless you're playing either someone at a very high level or someone who really knows the Bowser MU.

Considering how horrible the Bowser Vs. Samus/Falcon matchup is, I can see that happening. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Cassius.]

Considering how horrible the Bowser Vs. Samus/Falcon matchup is, I can see that happening. Thanks for the advice.

You think Bowser vs. Falcon/Samus is horrible? Why? Am I reading too deeply into your word choice?

 

[KnightofPizza]

You think Bowser vs. Falcon/Samus is horrible? Why? Am I reading too deeply into your word choice?

It's not the worst matchup in the case of Falcon, but it's not favorable either. I guess I could have worded that better. Samus still stands as very bad IMO.

 

[Cassius.]

It's not the worst matchup in the case of Falcon, but it's not favorable either. I guess I could have worded that better. Samus still stands as very bad IMO.

Falcon isn't in our favor, yes. But the problem with Smash 4 is that the rage mechanic can, and often does turn slight losses and 40-60s on paper into even MUs for any character lol

And Falcon is definitely a winnable MU. It's perfectly manageable in my honest opinion.

So, why is Samus very bad in your opinion? I'm curious.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Mostly just the campy nature of most Samuses that I've faced. They tend to take advantage of Bowser's lack of projectiles. Then again, I don't have much experience with the matchup due to switching to a more favorable character, but the ones that I have fought with him mostly won.

 

[Zigsta]

Samus is a really easy MU in this game. It's one of my most played MUs. Samus has trouble killing, and Bowser's really good at rushing down Samus's projectile game. Offstage fair also destroys her, although you do need to be sure you time it just right or else you'll die to uptilt.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Really? Maybe I need to experiment more. Thanks a lot for the advice. That makes a lot of sense.

 

[Zigsta]

Really? Maybe I need to experiment more. Thanks a lot for the advice. That makes a lot of sense.

Get some videos if you can. I'm happy to take a look at them and break down your gameplay further.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Get some videos if you can. I'm happy to take a look at them and break down your gameplay further.

Unfortunately, I have no means of recording my gameplay. Thanks for the offer though. Perhaps when the YouTube update comes I can get something to you.

 

[Jerodak]

@ KnightofPizza

Save a replay and send it to someone with a capture card.

 

[KnightofPizza]

@ KnightofPizza

Save a replay and send it to someone with a capture card.

Oh, that makes sense. Should I get videos of matches in FG, or should I play some friendlies?

 

[Jerodak]

@ KnightofPizza

Either could work, as long as you're able to get the footage you need. You can even have them send you the video so you can upload and edit it yourself if you want.