Set-ups and traps

[Emblem Lord]

This is something that I have noticed when I first played Brawl and experimented with all the characters and it's something that becomes more and more apparent as I play.

Marth seems to lack really easy/creative set-ups that allow him to do good damage or easily set an opponent up.

Dedede and Falco have the CG.

G&W has the d-throw trap.

Wolf has his d-throw and shine which both have little knockback and leave the opponent close enough for follow-ups.

Zelda has her d-tilt lock/trap.

ZSS has her paralysis and can do some nice combos with that.

MK has his Uair chains.

Diddy has his bananas.

You all get the idea.

What's really interesting is the fact that Marth is such a good character overall despite the fact that he doesn't have easy set-ups like other characters. I think this is a testament to how good he is, since even though he lacks this attribute he is still better then alot of other characters who DO have easy set-ups and tricks.

But that's not what this thread is really about. This thread is about addressing what I think is one of Marth's flaws and what we can do as a Marth community to change it. Now I have been experimenting more and more with Marth for ways that he can set-up for good damage or create situations where can easily cover his opponents options and I'm having success, but I will share my thoughts after people have posted.

So, Marth community please discuss this topic and share your thoughts.

 

[Boat Mode]

I haven't really considered this too much w/ marth, but some set-up moves could be f-throw and d-tilt. These are complete guesses but you do see some things coming out of these moves(fthrow to fsmash at low damage, fthrow into ftilts, dtilt into dancing blade)

 

[xMiMix]

Seems like even if you don't tipper, attacks still have good knock back. We can use the d-tilt I suppose and set that up for a dancing blade...? I'm not sure, but there's no attack that I can think of that is a descent with Marth. Maybe that's just the way he is...

 

[gallax]

a great combo that help me kill a MK from about 10% was a fthrow>fsmash>fair>fair>landed on ground then jumped back up> uair. this was a against a MK that won a very big tourney so don't say he wasn't DI'ing out of the throw. when a charcter doesnt have that much damage try this out.

 

[blazefox]

Theres already a thread like this.. It's on differant types of combos for Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This doesn't concern just combos, but easy set-ups for kill moves, edgeguarding and tech/juggle traps

 

[blazefox]

Ahh, gotcha. Marths f-throws probly your best bet. At about 40%? you can f-throw into a f-smash tipper I think. That's the best I can think of as of now. /:

 

[OmegaSephiroth]

Up combo of Dancing Blade could set-up for some juggling. Also the normal could set-up for edgeguarding.

 

[VietGeek]

This doesn't concern just combos, but easy set-ups for kill moves, edgeguarding and tech/juggle traps

My memory is kind of foggy since the last time I juggled someone was at a tourney a week ago.

Anyway, on heavyweights, fastfallers, and some mid-weight characters (especially floaty ones), you can upthrow/utilt then if necessary (mostly applies to Utilt) shorthopped Uairs usually always tipper (especially from the start of the crescent). If the distance is too great, do not hesitate to do fullhopped ones instead (and fastfall as well if required).

As your opponent gains damage and eventually finds a way to easily DI out/start moving farther up, full hop a Uair, then do a second hop to do another Uair (assuming you attacked them). Otherwise, follow up with the next statement instead:

From there, you should probably stop trying to juggle and DI alongside them toward them. Then punish with side-B and do neutral forth attack which sets up for stage control and edgeguarding (the former usually doesn't apply too much in tourneys though). If your opponent attempts to retaliate, or you know that's their style, ready Counter/F-air/B-air instead, then set-up side-B or if they're already offstage, edgeguard.

This doesn't work too well on say, Mr. Game & Watch, but I found that it works pretty well on Snake and Falco. The design of Lylat Cruise (low-platforms) really complements this by the way.

I don't know of any others, but I've been known for just trying to play smart and do some simple mindgames with Shield Breaker (the ultimate pressure move?).

Although I'm inexperienced in terms of the mindset of a competitive battler (therefore I'm outsmarted on numerous occasions >_>), I've learned that fancy tricks and elaborate set-ups rarely ever work in tournaments. The juggling set-up I posted isn't fullproof (obviously, since I'm too lazy to even go over what I even said), but it's a simple, easy-to-do juggle technique that racks up easy damage (how much kinda depends, just do it when you find the time is right).

 

[Emperor Time]

F-throw is really good for this.

 

[Anomic_Punk]

I'd say the best "trap" Marth has is in his fox-trot.
Simply pressuring an opponent all match with f-airs and tilts, then approaching for an attack but dashing away at the last second allows for his easiest mix-ups

THIS video demonstrates what I'm talking about.

Landing a suprise tilt or otherwise on an opponent leaves them well... suprised, and allows for a more aggressive zoning game involving side+b combos and d-tilts, also grabs if you approach quickly enough to evoke a defensive reaction from your opponent (sitting in their shield, spot-dodging or jumping)

As with all of Marth's lacking setups, you have to be keenly aware that if you approach too quickly out of a successful attack, you may end up being tilted away or punished out of their seemingly inevitable perfect shield.

At best, Marth has a "Hey I hit you" mindgame, where the opponent expects an immediate follow-up. Thats when you prey on their muscle-memory timing for shielding and counter-attacking your approach. Expect them to expect you to attack, and throw a small mix-up in to try and land another successful attack.

Rinse-wash-repeat as neccessary?

This all IMHO, anyways.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Well with areas with walls you can dtilt lock to up smash.

 

[∫unk]

I'm not sure why you would wait for people to post before you posted your ideas.. but welcome back Emblem You've been on a hiatus.

f-throw, up-throw are good because they put the opponent in almost the same spot every time.

SH f-air -> up-air -> up-tilt is good especially on those with bad aerials (aka Snake).

There's probably a few others I'm forgetting. Enlighten us.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Pretty much anything that gets them off the stage, especially if it's low

 

[Emblem Lord]

All right alot of you already said some stuff that I was thinking of.

I'm just gonna randomly say stuff that I have been testing so bear with me.

For edgeguarding set-ups I find that the third down b hit of Dancing Blade works well. It sends them back at a lower angle. Most of the time people will either try to go low, go for the edge immediately or jump back to the stage. Dash attack will hit them if they try to go straight for the ledge and they are at the same height as the ledge. If they tend to try to jump back then just aerial them. If they go low they chase them or go for an edgehug. The third down b hit seems to work better when you time the attacks of the Dancing Blade with a rythem instead of doing it as fast as possible.

I have been messing with Marth's grab release more and more. It can really catch people off guard. After they mashout you can usually get another free grab. If they try to attack you then you get a free Dancing Blade or a free smash. Once they wise up and start rolling if you can predict thier roll then that's another free hit. Some characters move a bit too far away for the grab release to be effective.


Another thing I have noticed is that an untippered jab can set-up the perfect spacing for a tipper d-smash or a tipper f-smash. And of course you can still mix-up with grabs or shieldbreaker. At higher percents it will knock lightweights a bit too far, but this seems to be effective on heavier characters. The only bad thing is that Marth doesn't get frame advantage from an untippered jab.

Of course Marth's throws and d-tilt set up well for damage and mix-ups. He can net an easy Dancing Blade or a grab after them. Also if your opponent tends to shield just wait a second or two then use shieldbreaker.

The last thing I have been messing with is the Dancing Blade. The third up b hit seems to set up spacing really well. And since it launches opponents up a bit Marth has time to recover from his attack lag. Most opponents would airdodge after this, so if you time it right you can get a free smash. I still need to do ALOT of experimenting to see how viable this stuff is, but I definately think Marth's set-ups have potential.

 

[Steel]

short hop fair > first hit of the nair > upsmash/fsmash/grab/dolphin slash/dancing blade whatever. sets up to some nice combos.

edit: LOL ignore this, im such a noob

 

[∫unk]

Emblem good **** on getting 13th dude... did you do teams?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, I did.

My partner owned me in teams. Kept killing me. Oh well.

Also, lol@random compliment. How did you find that out?

I pretty much never mention my placings outside of tourney thread shoutouts.

 

[∫unk]

Yeah it was random lol I was just looking at the tournament results forum and noticed your name.

 

[alchfilosofer]

Had you seen kizzu marth in brawl emblem? first hit of aerial dancing blade is amassing http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=AtIHp9JaNJc

 

[∫unk]

From my experience that doesn't work against people who know how to shield grab and it's ridiculously hard to hit short characters with it.

We should really be discussing on how to get the opponent off the edge in a low position. Marth's edge game improves greatly when the opponent is recovering level or below the stage. Especially against a character like Snake where the recovery is predictable... getting off the spike is huge so he doesn't live to his normal 125% (or higher).

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

Theres already a thread like this.. It's on differant types of combos for Marth.

Don't question Emblem Lord, he's like our Buddha around here.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

well he is the best edgeguarder in the game you jump towards them while they're off the stage so that they'll dodge then do vertical space...its a really good tech.

 

[∫unk]

That's not tech that's just anticipation... and against someone like Metaknight jumping out to them will kill you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So, I have been playing with jab more and more and I like it alot.

Fast, safe poking move that has IASA frames. Nontippered jabs set-up well for Marth's other moves in terms of spacing. At higher percents around 120ish a nontippered jab will put an enemy into sliding crumple stun state for a moment. It also has a small chance of tripping an opponent at high percents. This will give Marth a bit of time to close in and keep pressuring. Also since the Jab doesn't have great knockback it set's up for edgeguarding nicely. Tippered jabs are good for getting people off you. Also non-tippered jabs in the air set-up well, especially over the edge. They set-up the spacing for tipper f-smashes really easily so your opponent would be forced to DI back and recover low which means you get an easy edgeguard.

Check out this vid and look at King's Marth. He uses the jab really well. It's towards the end of the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5gvmUi_ug

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I think that Marth's best "set up" is his Dancing Blades. The move is usable out of a short hop or dash, and is wonderful for pivoting. Its also ridiculously fast so you can punish practically anything with it. The BEST part of the move is that you can follow DI through the whole combo, and even if your opponent blocks, you can end it and start a mix up. The move is almost universal in its ability to start the hurtin'.

If they DI up, you just start holding up and set them up for the juggle.

If they DI away, you keep going with the Side B, and knock them away for an edgeguard. If you can, DI up for juggles when they won't go far enough away for edgeguards.

If they DI towards, do the Down combo. The multiple pokes and increased damage will punish them for trying to get a quick hit. =P It also edgeguard sets really nicely near the edge.

If they manage to shield, let up and spotdodge. You'll dodge that inevitable grab and can counter with a quick Jab or another Dancing Blade. If they like to drop shields and use a quick attack instead of grab, use Counter or Dolphin Slash to punish it.

Dancing Blade; its Marth's set up. ^^

 

[Emblem Lord]

OMG!!!

You're stealing the idea for my next thread.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

*dies.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

OMG!!!

You're stealing the idea for my next thread.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

*dies.

L0lz.

Were you planning a topic based on the sheer awesomeness of Dancing Blades? By all means, do so. I'm certain there is far more to add to that thread then just what I've added here Emblem Lord, the move is just that fricken' awesome.

Whao... remember the B-Move revolution I was talking about? Why don't you get threads going about all of Marth's B-moves? Zomg, the potential for those threads is excellent...

 

[Emblem Lord]

STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPP!!!!

*head explodes

But yeah...*goes to make the Dancing Blade thread.

But maybe hehhe...MAYBE..I don't feel like finishing it today..hehehe *evil grin

 

[GhettoSheep]

Emblem Lord, I think you need to make a thread dedicated entirely to dancing blade. It's such a versatile move I'd like to see your take on it

EDIT: As for traps and set ups, If you short hop a fair and DI like you're trying to double fair, people almost always air dodge immediately, then you can just punish them with anything, i like shield breaker, dancing blades, sometimes even fsmash if I'm lucky. Then they never know how to time their air dodge. Its a basic mind game but its really useful with marth because everybody hates being double faired

 

[cubaisdeath]

My favorite thing to do on snakes at 0% is sh fair, uair, usmash. it does a lot of damage, and the usmash usually tips. sometimes you can get lucky and jump and hit them with a forward b and ff another uair. The falling uair to usmash works on lots of characters depending on how the uair hits and their DI and such. But I guess that much was obvious lol.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

My favorite thing to do on snakes at 0% is sh fair, uair, usmash. it does a lot of damage, and the usmash usually tips. sometimes you can get lucky and jump and hit them with a forward b and ff another uair. The falling uair to usmash works on lots of characters depending on how the uair hits and their DI and such. But I guess that much was obvious lol.

Would it just be better to F-trow to Fsmash?

 

[ZHMT]

SHfair > uair > usmash, does more damage and sets up for a possible juggle, I do it all the time lol.