Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Really? Damn, I've been having almost the opposite experience with that move since the buff. I have to tell myself to deliberately stand "too far" cuz I'm so used to the sweetspot being closer

See, normally you wouldn't have to worry. Like for Fair, Nair, and Jab only the tipper moved out making tippers really easy with no reason to adjust your sourspot game. But for Ftilt and Bair, the sourspot moved half the distance outwards that the tipper did, making the tippers only slightly easier while you also have to adjust your sourspot. For Dtilt, the tipper and sourspot moved the same distance, making tippers just a difficult as before even though range is way up. Dtilt's is a good thing because the sourspot has more reward (follow-ups).

 

[ElementUser]

Yes, we all get super annoyed. Probably no one more than me. In Utilt's case, it has Z-axis issues. In the other cases, Marth's arm hitboxes are too small and/or he doesn't have an active frame or two when he should (like a frame 4 for Jab)

Which direction does the Z-axis correspond to in this case? Vertical? Just checking because I saw one of your comments in the patch notes thread and X/Y/Z mean different things depending on which bone is used.

 

[Vipermoon]

Shameless plug for everyone else: http://smashboards.com/threads/what...l-buff-discussion.406759/page-4#post-20881843
If you feel like reading, this will not disappoint you.

Which direction does the Z-axis correspond to in this case? Vertical? Just checking because I saw one of your comments in the patch notes thread and X/Y/Z mean different things depending on which bone is used.

With the sword, Z is your typical Z-axis. Like the background of the stage.

Edit: and for Utilt, the reason why Z = 0 needs to be changed to 1 is because pretty much all of Marth's other hitboxes that attach to his sword (0x3ea) have the Z value at 1 (even specials).

 

[DariusM27]

Idk why, lately it seems like I'm losing more with Marth now than before patch. What the heck gives?

 

[Spc2799]

Idk why, lately it seems like I'm losing more with Marth now than before patch. What the heck gives?

I tend to go through rough patches with Marth. Like there are some days where I'm hitting tippers easy and all my moves are flowing together like a routine and then i have days where i can't even get in and my neutral game is trash. To me its all about mindset. Marth is a character you can't play on bad sleep or when you are in a bad mood. Thats why i tend to play my best on the weekends. Overall i have been playing better with Marth since patch 1.1.4 dropped. It might also be that you're just coming off of the buff-high and realizing that Marth is still a bit crummy. Don't worry, no matter what it is you'll get back to winning soon.

 

[Vipermoon]

Or the buff high is making you play more aggressive which you still can't do.

 

[Reizilla]

Marth is still bad and you're playing like he's better than he actually is because you put too much faith in negligible buffs.

 

[Shaya]

Not negligible, just not suddenly making us high tier quality.

Fair and dtilt buffs are like, impossible not to notice in your game play.

 

[FallenHero]

You should really just be playing Marth the same way you were before, just know that fair and d tilt have more range.

 

[Shaya]

And jab, and nair, and forward tilt, and back air.

Also with these bigger disjoints, I think the amount of possible leeway we have to get landing syncs has gone up too.

 

[FallenHero]

And jab, and nair, and forward tilt, and back air.

Also with these bigger disjoints, I think the amount of possible leeway we have to get landing syncs has gone up too.

Huh, I kept seeing everyone constantly talk about how nair is the same as before.

 

[Shaya]

Who's this we and why would you listen to the we that isn't me?

 

[Vipermoon]

Huh, I kept seeing everyone constantly talk about how nair is the same as before.

I lost track of how many times I linked the patch notes in this thread...

http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-4-patch-notes.430023/

 

[DariusM27]

Idk why, lately it seems like I'm losing more with Marth now than before patch. What the heck gives?

I think I figured out one of my problems. Before I would do an uair and chase with bair or uair at midpercents. If they airdodged, I would try to cover their landing lag, but if it connected, I could keep chasing them down.
Now if I connect a hit, I really can't chase them down, because they get knocked back so far.
In a way, the patch made it harder for Marth to get wins, because now he has to approach more than before, and approaching sucks as Marth.
Idk, that's how it seems anyway.

I tend to go through rough patches with Marth. Like there are some days where I'm hitting tippers easy and all my moves are flowing together like a routine and then i have days where i can't even get in and my neutral game is trash. To me its all about mindset. Marth is a character you can't play on bad sleep or when you are in a bad mood. Thats why i tend to play my best on the weekends. Overall i have been playing better with Marth since patch 1.1.4 dropped. It might also be that you're just coming off of the buff-high and realizing that Marth is still a bit crummy. Don't worry, no matter what it is you'll get back to winning soon.

So much truth, lol so much truth.

 

[Vipermoon]

I said that I would pick up Corrin, I did, and everything was going great. I dropped him though after realizing there are certain things with Marth in the new patch that I have to adapt to. Examples are new Jab kill confirms (in general about when to do what), the larger range, and the new sourspot locations for Bair, Ftilt, and Dtilt.

 

[DariusM27]

Do you guys think Sh Db strings are more viable now?

I just thought, sh db would be nice after jab now! Db at frame 6 and all.

 

[Locuan]

Going back on my Marth play after the patch, mostly exclusively playing him:

• 95% walk everywhere. I was getting punished for always trying to extended dash dance for movement.
  
• Improve ledgeguard shenanigans (mix it up with n-air, extended dash dance, grounded b-reversal shieldbreaker)
• Practice jab confirms at late percents.
• Not give up stage control. Have a habit of just going to the ledge and giving the stage to my opponent.

Marth feels fun now.

Do you guys think Sh Db strings are more viable now?

My opinion, nope. They are fun to throw around once or twice, but it leaves you open for a counter attack pretty quickly.

I just thought, sh db would be nice after jab now! Db at frame 6 and all.

At high percents, this can combo. So in this situation, yup.

 

[Vipermoon]

And remember, it takes 5 frames for Marth to get in the air when he jumps so SH DB is frame 10.

Locuan Yeah, my Marth is mostly walking too. Tilt stick right? It's the only way.

Totally right about the stage control.

I've been keeping track of my stale moves habitually. Fair gets stale of course but if it's going to be a kill move it better not be. And for Uthrow, one absolutely cannot use this unless it is 100% guaranteed that it will kill. I use pummels and Dancing Blade to help with staleness, of course.

DB is probably my most common punish (that's why Tipper DB1's high knockback pisses me off so much). What have you been doing with DB? I think we need to use 2-Up, 3-Up, and 4-Up for killing more. It's actually pretty easy against fast fallers as long as you slow it down a bit.

 

[Locuan]

Locuan Yeah, my Marth is mostly walking too. Tilt stick right? It's the only way.

Yup, Shaya enlightened me a while ago.

I've been keeping track of my stale moves habitually. Fair gets stale of course but if it's going to be a kill move it better not be. And for Uthrow, one absolutely cannot use this unless it is 100% guaranteed that it will kill. I use pummels and Dancing Blade to help with staleness, of course.

Huh, that's actually a pretty good thing to start to do. Keeping track of stale moves might be complex with all the things going on during a match but if you get used to it, I'm sure it'll be a common things to keep track of.

DB is probably my most common punish (that's why Tipper DB1's high knockback pisses me off so much). What have you been doing with DB? I think we need to use 2-Up, 3-Up, and 4-Up for killing more. It's actually pretty easy against fast fallers as long as you slow it down a bit.

Same here, DB is my most common punish, it's basically one of his best moves so has to be used a lot right? After 100'ish percent I stop using it mainly because I'm going to start looking for a more solid punish for the kill. Using DB to do that is like a gamble and I really don't like playing Setzer. I rely on the default hits of DB, which is mostly due to me not experimenting to much with the other variations. But default hits of DB at mid percents works well to get damage in and punish opponents unsafe approaches, it completes the purpose I want it to do.

What have you found?

 

[Vipermoon]

Yup, Shaya enlightened me a while ago.

Huh, that's actually a pretty good thing to start to do. Keeping track of stale moves might be complex with all the things going on during a match but if you get used to it, I'm sure it'll be a common things to keep track of.

Same here, DB is my most common punish, it's basically one of his best moves so has to be used a lot right? After 100'ish percent I stop using it mainly because I'm going to start looking for a more solid punish for the kill. Using DB to do that is like a gamble and I really don't like playing Setzer. I rely on the default hits of DB, which is mostly due to me not experimenting to much with the other variations. But default hits of DB at mid percents works well to get damage in and punish opponents unsafe approaches, it completes the purpose I want it to do.

What have you found?

Oh and for starters, stale move formula cuz it's usually super hard to find one: http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20693883

Yeah no one should ever try DB after 100% unless they will attempt a kill with some up variation.

-If you don't hit with the tipper of DB1, you could get , 3-up can't be a tipper because it doesn't do enough KB to send into 4th tipper.
-Or when landing you could try the same thing except try to do DB2 in the air right before landing because Marth's DB animations are different in the air, DB2-air strikes straight in front so it won't miss after you get DB1. This one actually works very well and not often will someone shield all 4 hits if they don't know what's coming. This one you do as fast as possible.
-A couple extras about the one above. If DB1 doesn't hit since you're too high in the air or they aren't there yet, then it still works (easily). This also works from a ledge drop jump onto stage. If they shield, stop at DB2.
-If they are a super fast faller, . Usually you have to slow it down. Experiment in training mode with it to check which paces combo and which don't (character depending obviously).

If we can get it so that we kill will DB more it would be super helpful for a character that lacks kill confirm punishes. There are too many situations where... Dolphin Slash doesn't reach. Grab has relatively no reward. Other ground moves are too slow or don't have enough reward. Usmash out of shield doesn't reach.

Oh and of course, 1.1.3 buffed DB3-down. can tipper and kill.

I'm sure you know this one but only other way to reliably get the DB4-forward tipper is before 100% at the ledge so the ledge stops you during the 4th hit. This easily kills. Even at 60% with a some rage.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

After the buffs and everything, what tier does Marth land now?

 

[Jink8]

I would say C tier. He is just a really good character and I see potential.

 

[DariusM27]

"Tilt stick right? It's the only way."

Let's do some dittos sometime, I'll show you how I use Marth with c stick to smash.

 

[CanadianCourage]

Who's this we and why would you listen to the we that isn't me?

Rule 1 of Marth/Lucina boards. If Shaya says something don't question it he/she is right and you are wrong deal with it. XD I'm only half joking lol

 

[Shaya]

Don't worry, I was being purposefully facetious :D
But there's been a situation or two recently with people listening to questionable things though

 

[Vipermoon]

Shaya can definitely be wrong. His very old "Marth Data" thread has plenty of mistakes. Still love you Shaya.

Anyway, Dtilt to Dancing Blade is a combo now. I believe it wasn't before and I always knew it was close. It just needed that 1 frame start-up reduction DB1 got. For those who want specifics, I found that Roy's interval (for example) is 33-35% or 33-45% with a walking start since the issue is that DB stops reaching. The importance is they would otherwise perfect shield and you definitely don't want that. Still isn't a big deal because the Dtilt has to be up close.

So, uh, aerial Shield Breaker is weird!! It has a Melee Shield Breaker sword trail even though he clearly stabs. It's even the same pink and blue color. And yes, fully charged has it too.

Did this exist in Brawl Shaya? It doesn't affect anything and the human eye can only see it at 2/3 or less speed. Still, this makes me wonder if they once planned to make aerial Shield Breaker like Melee's (in Brawl or Smash 4, depending on if this exists in Brawl).

Wait for my edit to post photos (I have to do it on mobile so they won't appear upside down).

I'll have to double post to fit the next one in
Edit: for some reason the second photo is too large even though this first one went through just fine

 

[Shaya]

Well, asides from reach assuming size = diameter that particularly thread is like 99% fine
But I usually go out of my way to ensure I note/leave a caveat [http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18151164]

and I think I do recall there being some gypsy sword trail magic for shieldbreaker in Brawl, but wouldn't bet my soul for sure (it just sounds familiar).

I've been getting more dtilt into db as well; it worked on Roy for a while so I assumed it was more end lag than anything.
Marth having it be minimum 5 frames worse than Brawl denied it being real (Roy's being 3).
Remember how we talked about how dbing out of a dash really stunted movement? We know how frame modifiers mess up movement slightly, so perhaps the alteration stops the awkward freeze in his dash.

 

[Vipermoon]

 

[A_Kae]

It happens with the custom neutral specials too.

Spoiler: Storm Thrust

Spoiler: Dashing Assault

 

[Vipermoon]

Well, asides from reach assuming size = diameter that particularly thread is like 99% fine
But I usually go out of my way to ensure I note/leave a caveat [http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18151164]

and I think I do recall there being some gypsy sword trail magic for shieldbreaker in Brawl, but wouldn't bet my soul for sure (it just sounds familiar).

I've been getting more dtilt into db as well; it worked on Roy for a while so I assumed it was more end lag than anything.
Marth having it be minimum 5 frames worse than Brawl denied it being real (Roy's being 3).
Remember how we talked about how dbing out of a dash really stunted movement? We know how frame modifiers mess up movement slightly, so perhaps the alteration stops the awkward freeze in his dash.

Not that stuff. I'm referring to other things (actually I felt like checking: jab hitbox durations, dash attack kb angle switch, nair end, uair end, dair hitbox duration). Regardless, I was exaggerating and they don't matter.

Yeah, I'll have to remember to check when I find myself playing Brawl.

I doubt it combos with Roy (and by it I mean Dtilt and then without moving, DB) because of how his sweet and sourspots flip flop... one sec... yup, it doesn't. Even at 0, sweetspot sends them too far. For sourspot, Roy is standing too far.

Dash with DB seems the same to me but idk, I only know the basics of FSMs.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, you're referring to point blank dtilt into db?
I do recall people always power shielding those and if it works now, yay~

 

[Vipermoon]

View attachment 97189

Lol at that, we'll call it "low mounted", hitbox on Melee Shield Breaker. Just noticed it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I seem to be getting Jab 1 into Dolphin Slash kills at the ledge a lot more reliable and on a much more common basis now... anyone else noticed this? Or is it just that my opponent's suck?

 

[DariusM27]

So, in training mode against Marth, weak hit if sh rising bair combos into jab from 35% to 59%

And weak hit sh rising fair combos into jab from 59% to around 75%.

Falling Nair to jab from 0 to 41%

Neat.

I don't think anyone has posted that info yet, so, yay me. *pats self on back*

Almost a three hit kill combo at the end into ftilt.

 

[Shaya]

I seem to be getting Jab 1 into Dolphin Slash kills at the ledge a lot more reliable and on a much more common basis now... anyone else noticed this? Or is it just that my opponent's suck?

I've been talking about jab1 to ds for a longgggggggg time now son. It was essentially the best follow up choice pre-patch because it's 5 frames out of any state (dash, jump, etc), so you could jab dash jump dolphin slash and that's our fastest option by far. This would catch people on certain DI

It's 3 frames easier this patch, so it's reliable :D
If they hold in near the ledge when you jab, it's awesomely free~

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've been talking about jab1 to ds for a longgggggggg time now son.

It's 3 frames easier this patch, so it's reliable :D

I already knew about it before, but I'm getting it now on characters where it was rather shaky or unreliable a lot better now. I can't think of a great example, but on some characters (maybe Mario?), it was rather unreliable, but those 3 frames do appear to make it a bit easier to land on certain characters. Of course, it just makes it a whole lot easier to land on the easier characters too, which is nice (like Sheik).

 

[Shaya]

I may be wrong but somehow mewtwo is immune

 

[Bowserboy3]

I may be wrong but somehow mewtwo is immune

Oh really? Never knew that. I'll keep that in mind...

 

[Shaya]

It was late at night and air dodge always worked, iono #_#

It was offline though.

 

[SirLink]

Hey fellow Marth mains, after months of lurking I thought that I should actually join the discussion and learn even more about Marth.

My username is really just my name everywhere else, but I do use the tag SirMarth when I play Smash. I still need more playtime with the new and improved Marth, but after expecting pretty much nothing I was pleasantly surprised by all the changes. Still not a finished character, but it'll do for now. Now my most desired features are actually Counter quotes (not happening at this point...) and a somewhat fixed Shield Breaker. I still can't get over the fact that it's such a strong kill move that doesn't do the thing its named after.

I did think that I prefer them fixing Marth in general instead of him having a clutch move like Shield Breaker but I just can't let that one slip. Instead of completely taking away the +5 shield damage that means like 90% less broken shields, it should have gradually gone from 25 to 30 while charging so a medium charge would definitely do the job. Either that or apply at least +3 to the tip, I'd love to be rewarded with a shield break for good spacing with it.

I also noticed that almost everyone here swears by the tilt stick, I would love to properly switch because Marth's walk is so good for that but I have to back up DariusM27 by saying that the Smash stick has served me well so far, so I'm still torn on this topic.