Scaled Stamina Mode

[Rebonack]

I slogged through the general boards backlogs and didn't find anything resembling this particular concept, so I figured why not?

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with with Stamina mode. If you aren't you get there by prodding that bunny-eared hat next to BRAWL.

Now, the major problem with stamina mode is the fact that it tends to be rather unfavorable to the heavier characters since their weight is no longer an asset and serves mostly to make them easier to juggle. With the addition of the ability to set the starting stamina this problem can be alleviated rather easily.

How you ask?

Well, I'll tell you hypothetical inquirer.

Characters have more stamina based on their KO resistance. Simple, no?

The method is easy enough. I used Samus' Fsmash and down tilt to gauge knockoff resistance since both attacks KO at approximately the same percentage on most of the cast. That way both vertical and horizontal resistance are taken into account. Add the two kill percentages together and you have your max stamina for each character.

The KO percents for Charizard were used for Pokemon Trainer. Since they all have different KO resistance and one is forced to use all of them. And Charizard actually isn't that heavy to begin with.

Had to subtract 10 from everyone since the Heavies clocked in at 310. And in a show of sportsmanship the low tier characters got a +10 buff for sucking. Captain Falcon got an additional +10 for being manly.

Meta Knight got a -10 nerf for being Meta Knight.

The results are as follows. Characters with an asterisk are low-tier and thus buffed. If you want the weight value alone just subtract ten (or twenty for Falcon).

300
Bowser, Captain Falcon*, Donkey Kong, Dedede, Snake

290
Link*, Samus*, Ganondorf*

280
Mario*, Pokemon Trainer*, Ike, Yoshi*, Wario

270
Wolf, Lucario, Sonic*, ROB

260
Luigi, Pit, Ness*, Lucas*

250
Marth, Diddy Kong, Peach, Ice Climbers, Toon Link, Olimar

240
ZS Samus, Pikachu, Zelda/Sheik, Falco

230
Kirby, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Jigglypuff*

220
Meta Knight

So there you go, weighted stamina mode. It really helps out those characters cursed with bad recovery (Olimar, Ivysaur, Link) and those who have trouble KOing (Samus, Toon Link) while at the same time nerfing characters with crazy KO power and gimping abilities. Like the four best characters in the game, for example.

And since knock-back remains more or less the same all those low percentage combos are actually a viable option throughout the whole match. Though as a trade-off the edge-game is de-emphasized quite a bit, but if you can manage to get a gimp kill it's more akin to knocking off two stock-lives. So there's a bit of give and take as with any game-play variants. Furthermore, setting the damage ratio to 1.1 makes up-tilt locks and Falco's chain-grab escapable and D3's chain-grab harder to pull off. Even better, it stops being an infinite against DK. All this while still preserving the ability to use short combos.

Questions?

Comments?

STFU n00b?

 

[samai]

Meta Knight is still broken and chaingrabs are a ton better? (i think)

 

[nightSN]

hmm this is like in real fighting games then, the fact that everyone has different hp, hmm i like (: LOL
but the chaingrabs are such a problem..

 

[Rebonack]

I didn't say that it would fix Meta Knight. But at least now he isn't KOing people at 60% with Shuttle-Loop. If nothing else the Stamina values could be adjusted to the point that characters with crazy advantages such as MK is counter-balanced through lower health.

I've been fiddling with this for a while and most character's chain grabs aren't that bad. A few get pretty scary, though. Lucario's and Pikachu's specifically. The Ice Climbers are still horrifying. D3 and Falco really aren't any worse than they were to begin with.

Though if anyone else wants to test this concept feel free and report back with your impressions.

 

[samai]

Yeah sorry I didn't quite understand on my first read through

EDIT: 100 posts

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Everyone should have less health than Ganondorf.

Hes freaking Ganondorf.
Make Ganondorf 300, and then everyone 290 or less...so MK would go 210.

 

[Rebonack]

While it is true that Ganondorf is Ganondorf he is not Captain Falcon. And I can not in good conscience give anyone more stamina than he.

That, and 'dorf isn't as heavy as the others.

 

[Blackbelt]

I find this concept interesting, and wish to hear more.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I really like this idea! Although I don't think it will ever reach a tournament perception, this is pretty cool alternative to the usual game, and having different characters have different health makes perfect sense.

 

[chewyy]

The IC's would have a super easy infinite (or close to) at all times. Popo grab -> nana fair -> regrab. It's the easist thing ever. This would be along with the infinites that they already have.

I'm just saying.

 

[Rebonack]

Quite true.

But then, the Ice Climbers can already 0-death the whole cast and it hasn't really lead to any broken abuse in the tourney scene. But I'm not suggesting this as a tourney alternate, that wouldn't ever happen. It's just an amusing idea that I had.

So I posted it up here to see if some more people would try out the idea and see how it goes.

Of the various top tier characters I think Snake probably gets hit the hardest. Since the knockback on everything is fairly low it puts him right in range for Cypher grabbing should be get knocked offstage. The problem gets worse when he's up against characters with projectile grabs.

Suffice to say the current tier list would change dramatically in this mode.

 

[•Col•]

Hmm, I think it'd be better if they were based on how fast a character can rack damage, not just their weight....

 

[Rebonack]

Weight is, however, a pretty accurate measure of how much damage someone will have to take before they can be KOed. Which is the main reason I chose it as the scale to base stamina on.

What you're describing would be further after the fact balancing. And to do that accurately would require extensive play-testing from people other than just me.

 

[eRonin]

Still, with this, characters with awesome combos, especially ones at low percentage, will hold free reign.
I'm thinking of Falco, who can easily stall with his laser and has a good chain grab that isn't nullified by increased fly distances. I think characters with ranged attacks should receive a penalty.

 

[Rebonack]

Of course, the fly distance on all attacks doesn't change, so juggles can be pretty scary for fast fallers and heavy weights. Falco and D3's chain-grab doesn't seem to be that much of a problem. It's certainly a boon to their game, but it doesn't seem to be game breaking.

And I really haven't seen projectiles dominating anymore than they did before. But of course, that's my personal experiance with it. What I need are some more people trying out this concept and providing feedback.

 

[Devil7]

I think more should go into factoring the stamina. Yes this is an excellent starting point, but more should have added, like projectiles, chains, combos, recoveries, and other stuff like that.

This is a cool and fun idea, but I think it needs more in depth tweaking, and fine tuning.

 

[Rebonack]

I'll reiterate that I agree.

Right now the stamina pretty much just represents weight. But the tweaking based on tier placing within stamina mode isn't something that I can do on my own. I'll need collaboration from others willing to try out this concept with their friends. After all, my own experiance in inherently limited by the fact that it's only my experiance.

Tweaking the exact amount of health based on not only weight but relative character potential would basically be a built in balancing system. Which would certainly be a good thing in my opinion.

So try it out if you think it looks interesting. Play some matches with your friends. Give me some feed-back and fine-tuning can start.

 

[notftomearth7]

Ah, so to make it fair you're saying that depending on which character you chose, you should be given a different HP, and the person you're fighting against's HP should be altered depending on who they chose?


This is the best SWF idea ever.

 

[Lex Crunch]

I love it, at least for home use. I don't know if I'd have fun at tournaments with Stamina mode, but I still like the cut of your jib. I just don't think tier placement should be a factor. It should all be based on weight. But maybe I'm just loony.

 

[Rebonack]

Ah, so to make it fair you're saying that depending on which character you chose, you should be given a different HP, and the person you're fighting against's HP should be altered depending on who they chose?


This is the best SWF idea ever.

Ideally, should this even be fine-tuned to the point that characters have their health based on weight modified by tier placement in stamina mode, this could indeed be used as a balancing factor. But as it stands right now it's just an interesting alternate way to play the game.

At least I think so. I've been fiddling with it for the past week or so.

I love it, at least for home use. I don't know if I'd have fun at tournaments with Stamina mode, but I still like the cut of your jib. I just don't think tier placement should be a factor. It should all be based on weight. But maybe I'm just loony.

That would pretty much preserve the original concept that I had. To have a stamina mode in which being a heavy-weight grants the player something other than the dubious honor of being a large, easily juggled target.

Which is more or less what I've been experimenting with. As I've said before feel free to try it out and give me some feed-back. I want to see where (if anywhere) this goes.

 

[ndayday]

This idea is...amazing. It clearly shows you thought it out very well. However, just like the tier list, if this becomes populor then health will be argued...

It's very nice for now though, and I want to try this out pretty soon. =)

 

[Ilucamy]

As a Lucario main, I'd say stamina mode makes him extremely broken. His CG goes on forever and once they get out of it, you can can fair-nair-CG again.

This would also make other low% combos that much cheaper like Marth's F-throw to F-smash. Another would be Ganon's Thunderstorming and Dair-U-smash.

But really, that's just stamina mode problems in itself. This list is awesome

 

[TheAceOfSmash]

Interesting concept. If enough people try this out it could certain become more than a concept.

 

[Patinator]

Y'know... This is a pretty good idea... Whole tournaments could be set up around stamina mode, I suppose. Things would probably have to be a lot more strict when it comes to things like infinites, I suppose... Still! Giving more stamina points to heavier characters both makes sense AND takes away their stamina mode weaknesses. I'm pretty impressed...

Huh. Someone should hold a "Stamina Brawl" tournament and see how it goes. I guess it'd please both fans of stamina mode and fans of other fighting games (I think?).

Ahem...

BRILLIANT!

 

[Rebonack]

Yeah, Lucario ends up being pretty beastly with Force-Palm in stamina mode. And that's not even taking into account his aura boost. Makes him go from a glass cannon at full power to a complete monster.

22% for a Dair? Ouch.

Thanks for the encouragement thus far, all. I'm surprised there haven't been any overwhelming negative replies yet.

Probably because I wasn't enough of an idiot to suggest that this would be a competitive fix for Brawl.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's a GREAT concept idea, but I don't see it becoming something great in terms of balance. The problem isn't really your concept idea, but the fact that Stamina mode in of itself is flawed for a competitive idea.

People have already stated about the chaingrabs, so I will not reiterate about that.

However, combos that are actually true combos at low percentages become the "end all be all" of this type of match. Marth's is already stated. Metaknight has a Glide Attack > Nair > F-tilt combo that works at 0%. Mario has U-tilt spam that racks up about 30% give or take depending on the weight of the character, and that's just the stuff I know.

If there was a way to actually change the statistics of Stamina Mode, then I'd be more than willing to give this a shot.

 

[luvs2pluck]

how about changing the damage ratio, that increases the knockback right?

*runs to play this new mode with roommate because it sounds pretty fun*

 

[Rebonack]

how about changing the damage ratio, that increases the knockback right?

*runs to play this new mode with roommate because it sounds pretty fun*

Ooh. Good idea.

Increase it just enough that stuff like constant up-tilt spam won't hold people in place forever. But you don't want to increase it too much because then you lose out on the non-infinite combos that stamina mode allows for.

Hmmm... looks like more experimenting is in order.

Edit of doom!

Setting the damage ratio to 1.1 allows middle-weight characters to get out of up-tilt spam pretty easily. Heavies and fast fallers can still get loose, but the timing is a bit more fiddly. Even better news, D3's down throw isn't an infinite on DK at 1.1 either.

DK users rejoice!

Falco's chain-grab also knocks the opponent far enough up that they'll have time to get off an aerial if it's quick.

Lucario's chain-grab is still murder, though. Just not quite as much murder.

 

[Zylar]

Hold up, even if you base the percentages by weight, it'll be harder for some to land hits.

So you might as well base the percentages on the tier list (Except for C. Falcon )

 

[Rebonack]

The problem with using the present tier list is that said list was made for Stock Brawls, not Stamina mode. Stamina mode completely changes the way many characters stack up.

For just one example take a look at Link. His biggest weakness is more or less erased (bad recovery). Furthermore, due to the low knock-back many of his multi-hit attacks that would partly whiff at higher percentages (down-air) can reliably land both hits at any percentage.

I certainly agree that it would be a viable option to base the Stamina level on weight and character potential but doing so accurately will require extensive play-testing.