fine. if all you guys are gonna try to do is insult me and futily attempt to prove me wrong rather than actually trying to understand what i have to say then i won't be nice anymore. i said that game design is abstract in which you can argue skill demand is bad or good for gameplay. the only reason you would think a feature is bad is because you dislike it, a point that i kept aiming for but you both dodge it because you were too scared to address it. you dislike features and then you deem them 'mindless' and 'unecessary'. then you argue you against what you feel is unfair, against the feautures that separate better players from people like you.i might never be able to be as technical as silent wolf, or maybe i might never be able to be as smart as mango, but do i ***** about game features in a pitiful cry for competition to be closer in my reach? no. because i'm not a diva and i accept and RESPECT those who do things better than me. you cannot yearn for equality in competition. i can see why ken and mango don't want anything to do with smash anymore, not because they don't like the game itself, but because the community is filled with divas like you who do not know the meaning of respect.any clever rebuttal won't change the fact that deep down inside you know i'm right.
Nobody is insulting you or trying to offend/disrespect you. If you want to have a real debate about something, you can't be a sanctimonious brat every time someone criticizes your understanding or reasoning; if you get offended by that, that's your problem and you should just take your arguments elsewhere. You have to realize that you as a person are different from the opinions you hold, and attacking one is not the same as attacking the other. Statements like "deep down inside you know i'm right" betray your mindset and show to everyone that you have no intent on critical examination of the ideas at work here, you only care about finding reasons to keep believing what you already believe, and you think it's so obvious that we just have to know that you're right and are only disagreeing with you to be jerks or because we aren't pro at BW. That is a hundred times more disrespectful than anything pocky or I have said. All I am doing is going where the arguments lead.
"SC2 is a ****ty sequal that takes 50 apm because they made the gameplay and physics so much less skill demanding." i openly admit this is an merely an insult. whther or not it is true and adds to the argument of gameplay is irrelevent, for the argument itself is irrelevent and arbitrary. this is just my hatred, this is my attempt at offending people, plain and simple. the real reason i do not like sc2 because it is not BW? no, i do like sc2 because it is killing BW and korean progaming as i know it. it feels like i am repeating myself. there are many starcraft mods that are also very different from BW, but i am completely indifferent about them in that i don't hate them because they are not negatively affecting BW or korean progaming much. therefore i chose not to offend it.
Ok well it still sounds to me like you decided from the beginning that you weren't going to like SC2 because it would take away from competitive BW (but that's what happens with every sequel to a competitive game, so you should really just get over that), and then tried to find reasons to say it sucks after the fact.
i do not have to retract my statement of SC2 being ****ty because it is my right to say so, just like despite shroom being a very good player and one of the best in california, norcal (and everyone else who wishes so) still has the right to say he sucks as an american citezen.
i am NOT hiding behind game design being arbitrary to avoid talking about whether 'mindless tech skill mechanics' are flaws or not. i am using it to explain how my perspective can be just as valid as pocky's.
just because something is arbitrary, it definately does not mean that you don't have the right to argue your perspective on that something. it is your freedom of speech. THIS IS WHAT I'M DOING. what i'm trying to do is simply show pocky my perspective, in hope that he might realize he was wrong about 'mindless tech skill' being considered 'bad design', though i can't really say and show that he's wrong because it is an arbitrary matter. i am no longer trying to offend pocky, i am trying to open him to a different perspetive. i am even willing to personally teach him how to reach 200 apm to do so, so that he can FEEL the game mechanics like i do, and hopefully grow to like them, because i personally feel that he's missing something truly beautiful. it's a **** shame to let him remain thinking this way if in actuality he could grow to like these features.
I don't know if you're deliberately misinterpreting me or what, but it's bizzare that you'd bring up free speech. You of course have the right to say whatever you want, but not all opinions are entitled to respect. I respect your right to hold and voice an opinion, but the opinion itself is only as worthy of respect as far as it can be justified. You are not excused from justifying your opinion/perspective just because you have the right to hold it, and it has no value until it is justified. You don't "have to" retract your statement of SC2 being ****ty, but why should I respect your statement if you can't or won't provide justification for it? You haven't done anything to justify your perspective on this or game design except say over and over again that the whole thing is arbitrary, and at the same time appeal to your experience as making your perspective 'hold more weight,' which if that were a valid argument, would mean that it's NOT arbitrary, so you contradict yourself - you can't have it both ways. Meanwhile it has been explained to you multiple times why it's reasonable to consider mindless tech skill a flaw.
first of all, the argument on game design is in fact a 'pissing contest' for what we are doing is trying to prove whose perspective is 'more right', though game design is abstract and we are getting nowhere really, except offending and aggravating each other. therefore it is in fact a 'pissing contest.' though right now i am trying do more than offend and aggravate by trying to show you and pocky my perspective, because i think that perhaps you two might learn to like the feature, or at least understand how it is not necessarily'bad design', but you both seem unwilling to open your eyes or even try to empathize at all.
That's not what a 'pissing contest' is. It's when arguments are driven by ego, as in, 'my opinion is more correct because I am an expert' or 'I got the last word so my opinion is correct.' I have not argued on such terms, but you have, so that's why I made that statement. I have no intention of offending or aggravating you, all I'm doing is pointing out flaws in your arguments. If that angers you, then frankly that's your problem, because discussion is built on questioning and criticizing ideas.
i'm not talking about competitive experience in general, but competitive experience in broodwar. lets talk about hockey, which before in this thread you've shown that your into. if someone like me, who has very little experience at all about hockey, were to argue with one of the team players about hockey's game design, would their opinions not be worth more than mine? they actually FEEL how the game design works, and i would only be imaging.
The validity of an opinion has nothing to do with whose mouth it comes out of and everything to do with the arguments justifying it. The argument from authority only seems reasonable because experts are more likely to be able to supply reasoned arguments to back their opinions. However, if someone can present arguments for an opinion, grounded in fact and principle, then it's totally irrelevant what his level of experience is. We do not get to say "oh well he's not an expert so I can just ignore his argument." The argument itself has the same validity no matter whose mouth it comes out of. We only defer to authority when we are not privy to, or do not understand, the arguments underlying the opinions.
I argue about certain mechanics in BW because I'm arguing from general principles inherent in game design. I do not however, attempt to argue about esoteric things like game balance of BW because I do not understand the mechanics well enough to make a judgement about whether X change would improve the balance or not. From my perspective, an expert is more likely to be correct than an amateur about that issue, but that's all I am able to say about it. I don't just latch on to the words of experts, I say "I don't know enough to have an informed opinion."
i am not trying to 'bait-and-switch you'; it was one of the points in pocky's first post. i am sorry if i put words into pocky's mouth, but i am still offended by the way he mechanically said that. that is why i keep bringing up the subject. he has not even addressed whether he agrees or disagree's with blizzard's decision, so i am unable to apologize for my intruding words or work to see if i can open his eyes to my perspective on the subject.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that you don't feel that you owe an apology for attacking him for something you don't even know if he believes or not? You think it's acceptable to put words in someone's mouth, and then attack them because of those very words?
