Santa Cruz/UCSC/831 Smash: The Chillest Villains

[hkt.dusk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a07dDvHqsNw&feature=player_embedded#!

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

wow blizzard just deleted jon747's account -________-

all those thousands of starcraft vids, all that history from boxer to jaedong

**** you blizzard and your nooby *** sc2 =/

 

[pockyD]

i'm not sure what it has to do with sc2

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

i'm not sure what it has to do with sc2

the one who gave him 3 strikes for 'copyright infringement' was gretech, a company blizzard backs. they have always never really cared about the Korean pro scene, but nearing sc2's release, they have worked to shut it down, claiming Korea didn't have the right to use their game professionally. since scbw has become korea's national sport in the last decade, of course they're going to fight blizzard. now big Korean corporations that run the pro Starcraft scene are constantly fighting with blizzard and gretech. blizzard is a money hungry corporation and they don't want true bw fans to kill sc2 from being popular (like melée did to brawl kinda) now they just took away a YouTube channel that had almost 10,000 vids, which was as old as YouTube itself and still was a director, so it was allowed to upload vids with no time limit. blizzard is literally killing their own game now to make way for their new one. and their new one is like brawl, a ****ty sequel that takes 50 apm because they made the gameplay and physics so much less skill demanding

 

[pockyD]

vids were posted illegally, company took legal action

sounds like you're just being whiny because you don't like sc2

how anyone could not think that some of the 'apm-requiring' mechanics of bw aren't complete nonsense is beyond me. may as well require the player be jump roping while playing

 

[Shroomed]

i love when kevin argues with people

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

the apm requiring mechanics of bw is nonsense? thats the most pathetic **** i've ever heard -_- i thought melee players respect skill. but i guess it's my fault for trying to argue with people who've never truly experienced competitive starcraft

 

[pockyD]

i'm almost certain i've played more and experienced more BW than most people here

explain how workers not automining WHEN RALLIED TO A PATCH makes sense? why would you ever rally to a patch if you didn't want to mine?

why would you ever want multiple templar to storm the same place at once?

what's the point of not being able to select 2 barracks at once?

why can't workers naturally patrol or hold position?

all mindless stuff just existing to FORCE you to do extra clicking rather than extra thinking

 

[Shroomed]

kevin-2
crimson)S(hadow-0

 

[joeplicate]

hahaha don't argue with mike about scarcraft vs starcraft 2, that kid has TOO MUCH RAGE on the subject!!!

and yeah dajuan, you're dumb for not going to the tournament, it was amazing. but nobody else in the car really missed you, and we enjoyed the extra space in the backseat :D <333

 

[hkt.dusk]

@kevin/pocky
you said it yourself when you qualified 'how anyone could not think that some of the 'apm-requiring' mechanics of bw aren't complete nonsense is beyond me. '

im assuming that youre saying some of the apm mechanics are nice to have...like animation cancelling for units, muta micro, etc.

but it does seem like an arbitrary place to draw a distinction. (else you could always settle for rock-paper-scissors) some people appreciate the technical barriers because theyre visible signs of how much time people invest into the game. kinda like sports?

seems to me that level of technical depth is all up to personal preference...

 

[pockyD]

it all depends on whether the mechanics in question enhance or detract from gameplay

At its core, any game (but ESPECIALLY a strategy game) should be a game of decisions - if a technical barrier increases the range of potential decisions, it is a POSITIVE element. If it decreases them, it is the opposite.

when you see even flash and jaedong having idle workers sitting by their main building, you KNOW it's both unnecessary and counterproductive. Just imagine how much greater the game could be if, instead of worrying about that, they had more time to invest into muta micro, dropship play, or multifaceted attacks

If I ever host another smash tournament, it's going to be mandatory that all players wear an eyepatch (The eyepatch will be provided, of course)

 

[Shroomed]

i learned a couple days ago that i'm right eye dominant

even though im left handed

 

[joeplicate]

i used to be right-eye dominant, because my left eye was nearsighted as a kid when my right eye wasn't

then i got glasses, and i became left-eye dominant because my glasses corrected my left eye to 20-20 vision while my right eye was like 18-20

now i'm still left-eye dominant

i don't think it matters which hand is your dominant hand, just which eye is better

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

simply by the way you talk about bw's mechanics like it is flawed shows how much you actually know about the game. don't act like you can taint jaedong or flash's name to argue in favor of sc2, as flash himself says he hasnt even touched the game and won't be even thinking about touching it at all until he's past his prime. the way you talk about how bw's apm demand being ridiculous gives away that you've probably never reached 200 apm in your life legitimately. I'm a 300 apm Zerg player, C level but has beaten B rank terrans and protosses on a good day. I have a 10,000 account record on west server which is well known and respected throughout low money, fast, and bgh.

don't try to make this idiotic argument that sc2 players keep making, about how if macro was more automated there would be more time to micro and therefore it would be more skillfull. thats like saying a math problem with only an x variable is harder and more complex than a math problem with both an x and y variable. if macro is automated why not have micro automated? because the game would play itself. the point is that having one automated takes away a whole element of skill in a game, which if taken away just becomes closer to being solely operated by AI.

obviously you don't appreciate the adrenaline of splitting screens in split seconds, macroing all your buildings as perfectly as you can all while weaving in and out of an enemy base with a group of stacked mutalisks, with each slip up or mistake equating to giving your opponent the advantage little by little. of course not, you want things simple like only having to worry about micro while your base automatically builds itself. if decision making is all you care about then you should buzz off and play chess.

 

[Crowing]

On a side note, anyone know how to access journals from ucsc libraries website from off campus. They say to use the number next to the bar code on student i.d's, but mine doesn't work if I do that. Maybe I am using to many numbers or something???

 

[pockyD]

simply by the way you talk about bw's mechanics like it is flawed shows how much you actually know about the game.

'the fact that you're wrong proves you're wrong!'

don't act like you can taint jaedong or flash's name to argue in favor of sc2, as flash himself says he hasnt even touched the game and won't be even thinking about touching it at all until he's past his prime.

back to reading school; I NEVER cited jaedong or flash's opinion on anything

the way you talk about how bw's apm demand being ridiculous gives away that you've probably never reached 200 apm in your life legitimately. I'm a 300 apm Zerg player, C level but has beaten B rank terrans and protosses on a good day. I have a 10,000 account record on west server which is well known and respected throughout low money, fast, and bgh.

you must be pretty awful to be at 300 apm but still be C dude

frankly no, i don't have the hands to exceed 150-160

but just because i don't have m2k's tech skill doesn't mean i don't understand how l-canceling works

don't try to make this idiotic argument that sc2 players keep making, about how if macro was more automated there would be more time to micro and therefore it would be more skillfull. thats like saying a math problem with only an x variable is harder and more complex than a math problem with both an x and y variable. if macro is automated why not have micro automated? because the game would play itself. the point is that having one automated takes away a whole element of skill in a game, which if taken away just becomes closer to being solely operated by AI.

why do we even allow multi-unit select? would the game be better with no control groups?

you're just arbitrarily deciding that what exists in the best game (which is brood war) is what is best period, which is simply a humongous logical fallacy

obviously you don't appreciate the adrenaline of splitting screens in split seconds, macroing all your buildings as perfectly as you can all while weaving in and out of an enemy base with a group of stacked mutalisks, with each slip up or mistake equating to giving your opponent the advantage little by little.

Sure I do. just like I'd appreciate the incredible skill involved in playing with one hand or playing with the sound off. DIFFICULTY IS NOT STRICTLY POSITIVE. I don't understand why you won't just straight up respond to that point, but the "you're wrong so therefore you're wrong" argument really holds zero water. Maybe you should get together with Sheridan and have him teach you some basic stuff about debate

of course not, you want things simple like only having to worry about micro while your base automatically builds itself. if decision making is all you care about then you should buzz off and play chess.

WHOOOOOOOSH



it's really sad that people like you are representing the BW community though. Most of us aren't as ******** and closeminded, but it's people like you who are outspoken and make everyone look like a change-resistant steeped-in-tradition old coot

 

[joeplicate]

boo


stfu f@gs

 

[Shroomed]

go kevin go!

this argument is ****

 

[pockyD]

well all it really is is a technical fox player complaining about jigglypuff



and for the record, i'm fairly strongly against l-canceling too, though my stance on that has softened quite a bit

 

[Shroomed]

you play sheik, u dont even need L cancelling!

but L-cancel becomes second nature after a while

 

[Crowing]

So I think it is really funny that HoN records APM. No idea why they would bother to track a stat in a game like HoN or lol.

 

[hkt.dusk]

well all it really is is a technical fox player complaining about jigglypuff



and for the record, i'm fairly strongly against l-canceling too, though my stance on that has softened quite a bit

more like... you guys are arguing about which character is funner to play

which is why the conversation is going nowhere

 

[pockyD]

you play sheik, u dont even need L cancelling!

but L-cancel becomes second nature after a while

that's why i feel it adds relatively little to the game

more like... you guys are arguing about which character is funner to play

which is why the conversation is going nowhere

come on, it's like nobody even bothers to read (which is fine, but just makes it annoying when they respond anyway)

brood war is a better game at this point, and it's the best game of all time, but there are many MANY elements of it that are simply outdated and inferior

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

'the fact that you're wrong proves you're wrong!'



back to reading school; I NEVER cited jaedong or flash's opinion on anything



you must be pretty awful to be at 300 apm but still be C dude

frankly no, i don't have the hands to exceed 150-160

but just because i don't have m2k's tech skill doesn't mean i don't understand how l-canceling works



why do we even allow multi-unit select? would the game be better with no control groups?

you're just arbitrarily deciding that what exists in the best game (which is brood war) is what is best period, which is simply a humongous logical fallacy



Sure I do. just like I'd appreciate the incredible skill involved in playing with one hand or playing with the sound off. DIFFICULTY IS NOT STRICTLY POSITIVE. I don't understand why you won't just straight up respond to that point, but the "you're wrong so therefore you're wrong" argument really holds zero water. Maybe you should get together with Sheridan and have him teach you some basic stuff about debate



WHOOOOOOOSH



it's really sad that people like you are representing the BW community though. Most of us aren't as ******** and closeminded, but it's people like you who are outspoken and make everyone look like a change-resistant steeped-in-tradition old coot

i'm not talking about jaedong or flash's opinion at all, i'm saying its disgusting to use their name to argue against what bw is, and to argue in favor of what you think the game should be

and i've only played iccup for a total of less than 2 months, i'd be B if i played it as much as battle.net, but my friends are on b.net and not on iccup so i only play it here and there. my rank does not give a true representation of my skill because i don't play iccup often.

and it's funny how i made an assumption that's correct about you. i was right that your one of those people.

don't use tech skill to compare to apm, because unlike tech skill in smash, apm in sc is matters in a way where it becomes more important relative to tech skill in melee. the tech skill requirement and demand for dexterity in smash for different characters differ too much, while in starcraft, a 100 apm difference between a 250 apm pro and a 350 apm pro like jaedong can mean whether he has the speed necessary to macro in between muta micro strides or not, (jaedong does, and he critiques other zergs about it when he watches them play)

instead of *****ing that the difficulty is detrimental to sc, (it isn't, your probably just salty your too slow) you should man up. i didn't get to 300 apm magically one day, i've gone up little by little over the years through sweat and dedication. the reason bw is beautiful is because the potential of gameplay exceeds human limits, which keeps people coming back and spending time bettering themselves. why would we all play smash if it wasn't the same? if EVERYONE has the same chance at winning because the game's demands were well inside human capability, no one would like it, because those who work harder recieve no advantage.

when i first started off bw online, i only played fastest. as i branched off to also start playing low, did i ***** and moan like a frustrated little girl about the split not being automatic? that when i rallied my workers to a mineral point that they wouldn't automatically gather? no, i watched as nada (during those days) effortly split his workers in less than a second and slowly trained myself to do the same.

there are many little hotkey tricks in micro and macro that you need to learn to be competitive. some are better at micro, some are better at macro. some are specifically good at specific things like clicking buildings 1 by 1, or changing rally points. all of these take time to master. if you aren't willing to invest your time and effort into it then don't ***** about difficulty when rest of the community is willing to learn.

you said that it doesn't make sense that when you right click rally your main to a mineral patch it doesn't make your newly built worker automatically start mining. it DOES make sense, simply because the game's AI is programmed so that it works out that way. the only reason why YOU would argue that it wouldn't make sense is if your from another game where it does work out that way so that specific thing becomes alien to you, or if it becomes too hard for you for you to have patience to deal with it. you start to hate it.

BUT, there are some people like me who like it, who love it. this is because i love the task of having to check on your main every 20 seconds a new worker is built. i love it when you have more bases scattered around the map, still having to do the task of checking your main every 20 seconds but having so much more to do so it becomes harder and harder to keep the timing of checking that very building every 20 secconds. i love it solely for the reason that i have a good enough memory to still remember this task, because it separates me from people like you eventually forget about the task and become frustrated that things aren't automated when you no longer feel that you have time to do these things as things to do start to pile up.

of course there are more reasons, conscious and maybe even subconscious, as to why people can love and hate this, not just this but any other specific chore that is required to play the game competitively. maybe some people specifically like microing and keeping alive every single zergling, maybe its a girl who thinks to herself 'can't let any of those cute little zerglings die.' maybe some people specifically don't like muta micro because they thing it's too hard, but the subconscious reason is that they are afraid that their individual potential at muta microing is far less than jaedong's, that perhaps they are born forever inferior in that specific respect.

so what i'm saying is that i love every little thing about sc, every little mechanic. every little chore i must do has room for mastery, and as someone who wants to be better at more and more things, i like learning about even more things i have to master. if you don't like these things, to the point that you start thinking about how the game SHOULD be, then this game isn't your ideal, it doesn't fit your requirements as what you have time for, and what you have patience to learn as a game. instead, find the game that has all the mechanics you like, just leave the game (whose mechanics seem too difficult for you) alone.

also, "the best game" is different for each individual for different reason. i would totally accept and completely agree with someone if they said sc2 is better than broodwar to them, if their reason is that they met someone special there, perhaps a close friend or even a girlfriend or boyfriend. the reason i said '**** sc2' is because the company responsible for it, blizzard, has openly taken steps to harm broodwar, in the name of greed.

i then proceeded to rage you because you showed no sympathy about jon747's account being closed. perhaps he had a few vids that he needed permission to use, but it is not right to simply close it without some negotiation. waffles puts so much time and effort uploading vids for the melee community to watch and comment about, and even he sometimes cannot find the will or time to upload vids on time, despite his passion for the game. imagine how much harder it was for jon747, as starcraft vids are much longer then smash vids, and they come out more frequently. for those who have school the day their favourite player's matches are played and could not stay up for the livestream at 3 in the morning, jon747 uploaded vids that were up the next morning, punctual even during on-season, where a handful of matches for MSL, PL, and OSL come out every single day. plus, the channel was one of the only director channels in the sc community's arsonel, which was very important as almost all sc matches span about 20 minutes+. jon was a single man in korea who had a big enough heart to upload for the sake of all the foreign fans across the world, who don't have the korean starcraft channel to tune into or have school or work which prevents them from staying up for the livestream.

he even responded to questions and messages on time, even silly jokes from views directed at him. i remember i was making a show-and-tell powerpoint on starcraft about sc. i specifically remember asking him for jaedong and nada fpvods that showcase great dexterity in control and speed, and he personally emailed me several vids THE NEXT DAY, despite being a busy man and also having sc vids to upload that day.

to so coldly say that he deserved it, to completely disregard the valuable starcraft history inside that account, and to have no sympathy for jon or the viewers when saying the company was completley justified for shutting it down, i cannot tolerate it, because i am sailor moon, defender of love and champion and justice. i right wrongs and triumph over evil, and that means you

 

[pockyD]

very VERY obviously tl;dr

anyway, since you won't do me the courtesy of actually trying to read and understand my posts, i won't do you the courtesy of reading yours

either that or you're just having far too much trouble comprehending the most basic points and it's not worth my time to keep repeating them. If you want to imagine my response, just re-read something I already posted

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

you're backing down because you've finally realized your wrong. you keep bringing up things and i keep disproving them, your whole argument about the gameplay is futile, because:

a) you are a 150-160 apm player who is arguing that he hates the mechanics of BW and thinks it should be changed because it's detrimental to the gaming experience

b) i am a 250-300 apm player on average that peaks around 350-400, who is arguing that he loves the mechanics of BW and thinks it is fine the way it is because it actually keeps players coming back to learn more

in the Razer APM Demonstration nada said you must be 200 apm at the very least to be competitive in broodwar, therefore you are not competitive enough or experienced enough to argue anything about broodwar's gameplay that holds any meaning against what I have to say about the gameplay because i'm truly a competitive broodwar player while your just some casual gamer.

 

[Shroomed]

so does that mean if we comment on a professional sport we have no idea what we're talking about because we're not athletes playing that particular sport?

 

[hkt.dusk]

so does that mean if we comment on a professional sport we have no idea what we're talking about because we're not athletes playing that particular sport?

it means your opinion wont be valued as much as someone's who does play that particular sport =]


like how all sports commentaries on tv are either ex players or coaches

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

whats funny is that i've actually read and addressed every point pocky made in all his posts thoroughly disproving them, and he goes back and says that i haven't.

i disproved him because i actually DID understand what he said, and also i understood where he was coming from so much so that i can RIGHTFULLY judge his skill level and apm just by the way he argued with me(like i've said in my previous post before he even revealed his skill level, "simply by the way you talk about bw's mechanics like it is flawed shows how much you actually know about the game"), and i've clearly shown why he is wrong. now he's too much of a diva too read my explanation for why he's wrong, because he knows he can't win.

actually he's probably already read what i've have to say and knows he's wrong, but he refuses to man up, swallow his pride and admit i'm right...so he just claims he hasn't read my post to leave with some pride.

 

[pockyD]

odd that you're the only one that thinks you made a relevant point

 

[frotaz37]

You guys are such noobs, I swear...

 

[pockyD]

i hear you're the chairman of the tom tupa fan club... where can i sign up

i skimmed the non-wall posts and i think it's great that he's actually proving my point about useless APM tasks while thinking he's making the complete opposite point

 

[frotaz37]

There's a Tom Tupa fan club meeting in Cleveland (his home town) on February 6th (his birthday).

We're gonna crash his birthday party. While wearing his jersey.

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

you said

'vids were posted illegally, company took legal action

sounds like you're just being whiny because you don't like sc2

how anyone could not think that some of the 'apm-requiring' mechanics of bw aren't complete nonsense is beyond me. may as well require the player be jump roping while playing'


-i've NEVER thought ANY of the 'apm-requiring' mechanics of bw is nonsense and should be changed. so i guess i'm beyond you =)






then you went on and said

'i'm almost certain i've played more and experienced more BW than most people here
-what does having played BW and having more experience in BW than most people in this forum have anything to with our argument? where did this statement come from? it came from when i provoked you by saying that you've probably never truly experienced competitive starcraft. so why didn't you say that your certain you've played more then me, the one you are arguing with? i asked if you've truly experiened competitive starcraft or not, and you haven't. even though you've had 'more experience and played more BW than most people here', it doesn't change the fact that you haven't truly experienced competitive starcraft, especially since (i'm assuming) most people here haven't even played the game once.







explain how workers not automining WHEN RALLIED TO A PATCH makes sense? why would you ever rally to a patch if you didn't want to mine?

why would you ever want multiple templar to storm the same place at once?

what's the point of not being able to select 2 barracks at once?

why can't workers naturally patrol or hold position?

all mindless stuff just existing to FORCE you to do extra clicking rather than extra thinking'

-i guess i'll say it again. it makes sense because it was programmed that way, that is why that happens. what you SHOULD be saying is that "i don't like it when i rally to a mineral patch and workers don't automatically mine' this feature is there because it was programmed that way, you either like it or you don't. this applies to all these other points. extra clicking IS extra thinking, because you must consciously decide whether or not you are going to click or not. saying that it is mindless stuff is completlely irrelevent, of course it is mindless because features don't have minds. the word you are looking for is "tedious".

 

[pockyD]

it makes sense because it was programmed that way

this is the only thing that you've said that's relevant to the discussion, and it's absolutely incorrect. best game != flawless game

don't get confused as to why i'm not responding to your unfounded ad hominems

 

[tarheeljks]

it means your opinion wont be valued as much as someone's who does play that particular sport =]


like how all sports commentaries on tv are either ex players or coaches

and a lot of them still say things that are demonstrably false

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

-i guess i'll say it again. it makes sense because it was programmed that way, that is why that happens. what you SHOULD be saying is that "i don't like it when i rally to a mineral patch and workers don't automatically mine' this feature is there because it was programmed that way, you either like it or you don't. this applies to all these other points. extra clicking IS extra thinking, because you must consciously decide whether or not you are going to click or not. saying that it is mindless stuff is completlely irrelevent, of course it is mindless because features don't have minds. the word you are looking for is "tedious".

This paragraph kind of illustrates the fallacy in your main argument - you're making claims about what OUGHT to be on the basis of what IS. Your criterion for what 'makes sense' or what 'should' be in the game is simply whether it's in BW or not, and not any external sense of what good game design is - you're letting BW DEFINE what RTS is "supposed" to be. So your arguments against SC2 in effect boil down to nothing more than "it's not BW."

Pocky is challenging you to think critically about whether things like workers not automining when rallied to minerals actually improves the game instead of just being additional arbitrary tech skill.

 

[Shroomed]

i'd give up against pocky+sheridan if i were you

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

this is the only thing that you've said that's relevant to the discussion, and it's absolutely incorrect. best game != flawless game

don't get confused as to why i'm not responding to your unfounded ad hominems

i said that it makes sense because it is programmed that way. nothing in this statement is incorrect; the game AI, when rallied to a mineral patch, is not programmed in a way so that workers automatically start mining. this statement is completely true, and i am simply responding to your question of "explain how workers not automining WHEN RALLIED TO A PATCH makes sense?" instead, i think you should be asking if i like or dislike the feature of BW gameplay in which i rally workers to a mineral patch and they don't automatically start mining. the answer is that I am indifferent about this feauture, and i'm leaning towards actually liking it because i've stated before that i like having to remember to do it as the game progresses.

and i have NEVER said that SC is flawless, especially within the statement you quoted from me. you are assuming that i think so, or 'putting words into my mouth'. gameplay wise i cannot say whether it is flawed or not; i am completlely indifferent about every feauture in broodwar's gameplay, though i think battle.net could use lan-lat.

earlier you asked me if the game would be better if multi select was disabled. i cannot answer the question because i have never played a game in which there was no multi select, and i certainly am not a good judge of whether or not it gives or takes away from the gameplay, because i've never been highly competitive in a game that has this feauture and therefore hold no water in arguing about it. IMAGINING, right now i think it would be tedious. but that's just imagining. imaging is completlely different from FEELING, similar to the difference between empathy and sympathy. even though i IMAGINE that it would be tedious, perhaps if i'll ever become competitive in a game that has the feature i would actually like the feature, after i've FELT it.

i'll illustrate my point by using myself as an example: i've always thought drug dealers were bad people who are weak and give in to the need of money, though i have EMPATHY that maybe they are poor and live in bad conditions. this is because i have lived a sheltered life and have never been in a situation that dealt with drug dealing, i don't FEEL why someone would ever sell drugs, and i am unable to really SYMPATHIZE with them.

understanding M2K's tech skill and being to actually FEEL first hand M2K's tech skill is therefore completley different. this is why when you say how many of the features in BW are unecessary i feel that you're completley wrong, because you've never really FELT it, felt HOW it contributes to the gameplay, while on the other hand i have