Samus smash switch speculation thread

[DungeonMaster]

Charging in the AIR! I wonder what it will cost her? He can't make the hitboxes much smaller...

 

[KingBroly]

Samus' 8th Color has gone from Black/Blue to Black/Yellow

...and Dark Samus is nowhere to be seen

 

[Varia31]

Samus' 8th Color has gone from Black/Blue to Black/Yellow

...and Dark Samus is nowhere to be seen

I'm almost wondering if they'll turn Dark Samus into an Echo Fighter. I'd prefer if Dark Samus had its own moveset as a separate character, but it seems like the logically Smash-y thing to do.

Mid-Air charging is long overdue, but it's such a welcome addition all the same! I'm still hoping she gets her Samus Returns or Prime Trilogy suit as an alt.

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

I noticed her Super Missiles hover downwards during the point their rocketed goes off. I thought this might mean they'd be a better height for hitting small characters, but they also seem to fly up at a slight angle. This causes them to get higher than they would in Smash4. Might be better against ariel opponents, I'm not sure.

Though maybe there is a way to change the angle? I could swear I saw a missile hover up before flying off, not down, at some point, but I can't find footage of that now.

 

[UltimateWario]

>SAMUS BUFF OH ****
>it’s a buff for all chargeable projectiles
T-Thanks Sakurai.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus' Charge Shot may only take 77 frames to fully charge, at least what I observed from the 22 second trailer of Samus for SSBU.

 

[Grizzexploder]

The Melee Counter Dream is dead

 

[NintenRob]

Can I just say, Samus was awesome during Ridleys reveal trailer. Her expressions really highlighted her feelings and rivalry between for Ridley. And she was just bad ass and was able to keep her cool.

 

[Crystanium]

All data is from this video. These are differences between SSB Wii U and SSBU.

0:18 - 0:21 — Samus' forward roll had 38 frames, but it appears it can be buffered by quickly rolling again. This time it took 43 frames, but after the uncharged Charge Shot, the roll appeared to be 38 frames again before Samus went for a dash.

0:27 — On frame 21, Super Missile comes out. Like in SSB Wii U, the arm cannon is covered by Super Missile, so it probably has the hitbox by that point. Then on frame 58 it looks like Samus can do other things. If this is the case, then the first actionable frame (FAF) has been reduced by 1 frame.

0:40 — I only saw 14 frames for Jab 1, which was then followed up by Jab 2. I don't know if Jab 1 can be interrupted with Jab 2 in SSB Wii U, although the animation in both it and SSBU look the same. Jab 2 came out after, which only lasts for 29 frames, rather than 30.

0:41 — I'm not certain about Samus' f-tilt here, since she hits Ridley. I suspect that upon hitting him, Samus' f-tilt lingered out a little longer.

There's more to cover, but I'm not the best at this kind of stuff.

Forward roll: 40 frames → 38 frames.
Super Missile FAF: 59 frames → 58 frames
Jab 1: 18 frames → 14 frames (?)
Jab 2: 30 frames → 29 frames

 

[Grambles]

Everyone is going to change too much in the next 6 months to worry about specific frames and stuff right now

I like that her D-Smash seems to have more knock back. And in one video her Up+B killed at 60~ something, I think?

All I wanted to see were some Z tether stuff, but there're no videos showcasing it. Otherwise, it looks like she's going to be the same-ish with maybe a little more kill power so far

 

[Varia31]

Check out this video. First, back throw can apparently kill at 150% and above. Second, new victory animation!

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Check out this video. First, back throw can apparently kill at 150% and above. Second, new victory animation!

Had read a few rumblings about it, but it really does seem like bombs explode on contact again (0:35), like in Melee.

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

The bombs excite me. A kill grab (even if it's a 150% on a light character) is also really nice.

When I first watched that video I literally gasped when I saw the throw kill. Her grabs not killing is so ingrained in my brain.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus deserves a kill throw, considering how slow her grab is. I tend to treat a throw as a kill move if it can kill at 120% or lower.

 

[fierceee]

Does anyone know much about the Charge Shot cancellation mechanics? I couldn't find any decent videos but is she semi-helpless if she cancels the charge in the air?

 

[Kain6th]

can't wait to play her!

 

[Phazon ID]

How does he charging in the air work? Hope its exazctly like DKs punch.
Csn you cancek charge in the air with Z?

 

[Crystanium]

From that video.

1:25 - 1:32 — False charges and is interrupted by Pikachu's Thunder Jolt. At 1:32 it looks like Samus still has the charge. Or, uncharged Charge Shot looks bigger.
1:54 - 1:56 — Charge Shot still takes 125 frames (2.08 s) like in Sm4sh.

Charge Shot can be canceled in the air by air-dodging or jumping. Or so I was told.

 

[Mr. Data]

Samus will always be top tier in my heart.

 

[UltimateWario]

So now that Samus can charge in the air, she will need to be nerfed accordingly. I for one suggest that her Missiles HEAL their targets. Samus is just way too good.

please Sakurai I just want supers to kill again

 

[MistahNoodle]

I have a big fear for Samus after hearing Dabuz's comments on her. Nintendo, why do you do this to her?

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

I have a big fear for Samus after hearing Dabuz's comments on her. Nintendo, why do you do this to her?

If it helps, here's Zero's thoughts on her. Ignore the Z-drop stuff he mentions, that's about Link using his bombs to recover, who he was talking about prior to Samus.

 

[MistahNoodle]

If it helps, here's Zero's thoughts on her. Ignore the Z-drop stuff he mentions, that's about Link using his bombs to recover, who he was talking about prior to Samus.

There is some good news in there! A shame about her jab still failing to connect. Will never understand, but here's to hope!

 

[GotACoolName]

can't wait to play her!

Samus’s back air looks nerfed to hell. Like pre-patch smash 4 nair knockback...

 

[Bowserboy3]

Is anyone going to talk about the fact that Bomb Jumping seems to be back? She definitely gets more height on her bomb jumps now, more akin to games before Smash 4.

And ALSO - Samus's grab has been buffed AGAIN! It is was quicker on cooldown.

Using YouTube's frame by frame tool on ZeRo/Armada v Plup/Abadango, we can see that Samus's grab now has a FAF of 59, give or take a frame at least - providing Shields are still frame 1, it would be FAF 59.

So that's;
Standing Grab - FAF 70 -> FAF 59.

This is GOOOOD when you consider her Dthrow still seems be a combo starter, and she has a potential kill throw now.

Going to see if I can find whether the active frame on grab is any quicker, and also check a few of her aerials for landing lag too, so be sure to check back to this post for edits soon!

Edit 1:
Aerials that I have seen with reduced landing lag - note, please give or take a frame for error just in case.
Forward Air has reduced landing lag. Appears to be 15 frames (down from 24 in Smash 4).
Back Air has reduced landing lag. Also 15 frames (down from 18 in Smash 4).
Neutral Air has reduced landing lag. Appears to be 10 frames (down from 16 in Smash 4).
Down Air has reduced landing lag. Appears to be 18 frames (down from 20 in Smash 4).

 

[MistahNoodle]

Is anyone going to talk about the fact that Bomb Jumping seems to be back? She definitely gets more height on her bomb jumps now, more akin to games before Smash 4.

And ALSO - Samus's grab has been buffed AGAIN! It is was quicker on cooldown.

Using YouTube's frame by frame tool on ZeRo/Armada v Plup/Abadango, we can see that Samus's grab now has a FAF of 59, give or take a frame at least - providing Shields are still frame 1, it would be FAF 59.

So that's;
Standing Grab - FAF 70 -> FAF 59.

This is GOOOOD when you consider her Dthrow still seems be a combo starter, and she has a potential kill throw now.

Going to see if I can find whether the active frame on grab is any quicker, and also check a few of her aerials for landing lag too, so be sure to check back to this post for edits soon!

Edit 1:
Aerials that I have seen with reduced landing lag - note, please give or take a frame for error just in case.
Forward Air has reduced landing lag. Appears to be 15 frames (down from 24 in Smash 4).
Back Air has reduced landing lag. Also 15 frames (down from 18 in Smash 4).
Neutral Air has reduced landing lag. Appears to be 10 frames (down from 16 in Smash 4).
Down Air has reduced landing lag. Appears to be 18 frames (down from 20 in Smash 4).

I'm digging it! Yes!

Despite any nerfs, I'm still going to main her, discover what's good about her and carry her as far as I can!

 

[GotACoolName]

Can Samus act out of morph ball during a bomb jump? That was the other problem post-Melee with her bombs — she was trapped in morph ball.

 

[MistahNoodle]

ESAM gives his inputs on Samus. So far, it's not looking stellar for our bounty hunting Queen. There is some hope tho, in that six months feedback reaches Sakurai and the dev team and they fix her.

According to ESAM, fixing her dash attack in Ultimate will make her better. Here's to hoping!

 

[Deleted member]

ESAM gives his inputs on Samus. So far, it's not looking stellar for our bounty hunting Queen. There is some hope tho, in that six months feedback reaches Sakurai and the dev team and they fix her.

According to ESAM, fixing her dash attack in Ultimate will make her better. Here's to hoping!

I wouldn't necessarily be too worried at this point there's a lot of time for here to be buffed up until release. One of the things that makes Samus great is low representation so that's always a BIG plus for Samus players. All in all I expect her to be around how she was in Sm4sh in terms of viability.

 

[Porygon2]

Samus deserves a kill throw, considering how slow her grab is. I tend to treat a throw as a kill move if it can kill at 120% or lower.

Cooldown seems reduced, but I agree. Has anyone tested out the up throw? New animation seems to suggest it's more powerful.

Man, between Link's new bombs, Pikachu's new nair, Bowser's new d-smash, Ganon overhaul, etc., I expected something more for Samus, especially with the new Metroid games.

I wouldn't even necessarily wish for new moves in this vein (though there are plenty of suggestions to be had there, too) — updated frame / hitbox data combined new fanservice vfx would be plenty. Imagine u-smash updated with a larger hitbox, but also coupled with a pseudo beam mechanic that cycles through different vfx/damage types depending on the length of charge. From regular power beam (fire), to ice, to wave (electric). Would be relatively easy to implement.

 

[Diem]

ESAM gives his inputs on Samus. So far, it's not looking stellar for our bounty hunting Queen. There is some hope tho, in that six months feedback reaches Sakurai and the dev team and they fix her.

According to ESAM, fixing her dash attack in Ultimate will make her better. Here's to hoping!

Apparently Nintendo went around and asked the players they invited to the Invitational for their thoughts on the game, so hopefully ESAM gave some feedback on Samus that means we'll see some improvements by December. Hopefully we'll see improved balance for everyone by December. We know that when Bayonetta comboed the crap out of Ridley during one match, Sakurai shook his head, so we know Bayonetta will probably be balanced better.

It's great how much Sakurai and the Smash team are dedicated to making this game balanced better. They made steps in the right direction with Smash 4's balance patches, but now they seem to want this to become a legitimate eSport, so I don't think things will be as unbalanced as in Smash 4, which was still relatively better balanced than previous games. Which means we may see Samus become a more viable character in the end.

 

[link2702]

So a question I’ve got for anyone that played samus.... does her jab connect properly now? Or is it still like 4 where it rarely could connect except in certain situations like a bomb setup.

 

[Aetheri]

So a question I’ve got for anyone that played samus.... does her jab connect properly now? Or is it still like 4 where it rarely could connect except in certain situations like a bomb setup.

I've heard that they still don't connect properly...

 

[Bowserboy3]

We know that when Bayonetta comboed the crap out of Ridley during one match, Sakurai shook his head

This is all just word of mouth at the minute. Nobody has been able to confirm exactly that Sakurai did this. It's all "supposedly".

To be honest, I don't see Sakurai being that sort of person to shake his head at something like that. He seems more reserved than to show that kind of reaction. At least to me anyway.

---

That said, I personally think that ESAM may be focusing on Dash Attack too much. Sure, her Dash Attack was godlike in Smash 4, but she functioned just fine in Melee without it. Namely, she had movement options to be able to utilise her strong grounded options. With the much better grounded options like dash dancing being back, dashing into tilts etc, Samus will once again be able to threaten with her strong grounded options.

Samus's main issues in Smash 4 were having a poor disadvantage state, and also having a tough time KO'ing (safely and reliably), thanks to her main kill options being unsafe (Bair and Nair landing lag), awkward (Fsmash sourspot, Usmash lol), or just moves that should kill, being very weak and useless (Dsmash and Super Missile). That, and her approach was very one sided, as she could not safely approach from the air because of landing lag again. Also, at high percents, Samus had no real reason to grab opponents; she wouldn't be able to kill off of it, or she wouldn't be able to get anything off of one anyway. This is before factoring in her grab is a slow tether grab.

Pretty much all of these issues have been addressed in Ultimate; her landing lag is lower, making her kill options a little more variable, and also boosts her approach options. Dsmash is useful again, so not only will she have a reliable killing option, but also a get off me option. And we know she has a kill throw, which will deter opponents from shielding too much at high percent - something they could get away with.

In the end, the game still isn't out yet, so there's still time for things to change. I doubt she'll get her old Dash Attack back, but she's already received so much more in return.

Can we please just have Jab work this time?...

 

[Diem]

Apparently Nintendo went around and asked the players they invited to the Invitational for their thoughts on the game, so hopefully ESAM gave some feedback on Samus that means we'll see some improvements by December.

Looks like I was right!

https://youtu.be/8EEmxlxJZdA?t=54s

 

[Crystanium]

So that's;
Standing Grab - FAF 70 -> FAF 59.

60 frames, actually. I considered the time Samus' shield dropped and entered the grab animation at 1:55:31 to the time Samus' shield went up at 1:56:32. At frame 61, that's when Samus' shield went up. Still, that's faster than before, which is great. And if it's true that dash grabs are faster than standing grabs, then Samus should be able to grab faster. I won't be surprised if pivot grabs are slower than the other two grabs, though. But, it doesn't matter when you take into account that pivot grabs are excellent for grabbing opponents who like to dodge, since there's that delay to wait out the opponent's dodge.

As for dash attack, the problem in SSBU is that it doesn't lead into combos. It seems this might be to avoid shinesparking. It's possible that the angle will return to how it was in Sm4sh, but there's no way to currently confirm that. If the problem was due to shinesparking, I think the best option to deal with that is increasing the diameter of Samus' Screw Attack. The reason shinesparking was possible was because the opponent would get clipped on the outer part of Screw Attack. An alternative would be adding a wind effect so that anyone nearby will get pulled into Screw Attack without falling out.

Jab 1 doesn't connect because of the Sakurai angle (361°). When the opponent receives more damage, the angle no longer matters. The opponent will end up being pushed away. While it'd be great for jab 1 to be able to connect, the best option is to still just use jab 1 and seldom use jab 2 when the opponent is at a higher percent. If jab 1 connected, it would definitely help Samus. I think jab 1 is a good neutral option, but giving it a different angle would improve on it.

 

[Varia31]

New gameplay vs Ganondorf. Bair looks like it can still kill after all. Dunno if this is a different build from E3 or not, though.

 

[Another K-2L Survivor]

New gameplay vs Ganondorf. Bair looks like it can still kill after all. Dunno if this is a different build from E3 or not, though.

I LOVE that Metroid 2 pose in her win animation. And the fire effects in this game are gorgeous.

 

[Varia31]

I LOVE that Metroid 2 pose in her win animation. And the fire effects in this game are gorgeous.

I agree. I also like the totally new win pose she has where she seems to jump from her ship, land, and then stand up and take aim. You can see that one in my post a bit above (the NAKAT vs False match).

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

Unfortunately, I have seen that she continues to charge the shot as usual. Which prevents us from playing with her in Smash the same way we played her in the games of the series: dodge by jumping and morph ball and attacking enemies from a distance with shots. At least in most games with side vision. With that side special acting like that, you can not do that right either. Besides other things, like it looks like she does not give that mortal when you jump forward. And also the speed of Samus in her games that will not necessarily match what you have in this new game. I still think that another method to shoot consecutive shots and charge shots, united with the use of missiles and super missiles with the B, alternating the shooting modes with the taunt, even in the air to eliminate the animation, would be interesting modifications to character act in a stronger and more authentic way.

Edit: The bombs still seem a bit pointless