Samus smash switch speculation thread

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#1
Here's hoping some of the old gang from the Wii U glory days return to see the new incarnation!
I will be around, and I literally JUST received my smashbox (finally! It's a very very nice piece of kit).

Assuming the game is essentially a Wii U port I'm going to throw this out there as my prediction: more Samus buffs. Why?
Metroid Prime 4.
In general to promote games and for good corporate relations between franchises the targeted characters are made stronger. It's a business, we all know it ('ello Bayo).
Could be a great year for Samus!
 
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#6
I dont think there is any correlation between the top tiered characters and the games that are released... I think the team really tries to make each of the characters equal. If there were, for one, the entire franchise would be equally good.

Let's say the best characters ARE from recent games. The following characters are from series' with recent ports, announcements, or games.
:4bayonetta::4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4cloud::4corrin::4dedede::4diddy::4dk::4drmario::4ganondorf::4greninja::4myfriends::4jigglypuff::4kirby::4link::4lucario::4lucina::4luigi::4mario::4marth::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4olimar::4pacman::4peach::4pikachu::4robinm::rosalina::4feroy::4ryu::4samus::4sheik::4shulk::4sonic::4tlink::4villager::4wario::4yoshi::4zelda::4zss:

Sorry to :4falcon::4duckhunt::4falco::4littlemac::4fox::4lucas::4miif::4gaw::4ness::4palutena::4pit::4rob::4wiifit:
 

Varia31

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#7
From what I can tell from her silhouette in the teaser, Samus will be sporting her Smash 4 design again. I didn't see any fins on her shoulders. That said, I hope that she will at least have the Samus Returns and/or Prime Trilogy design as an alt. costume. Heck, it would be cool to see her other Suits actually be suits instead of palette swaps (e.g. the actual Dark Suit or Light Suit instead of their color schemes alone). Others have mentioned this idea, but it's worth repeating.

As for gameplay, I say this a lot, but as happy and comfortable as I am with her current moveset, I wouldn't mind a new moveset or more changes to make her feel more like how she plays in her source material. For instance, that melee counter of hers from Samus Returns. That could either be another counter as a special, or just make it her new foward smash, and maybe just give it some hefty priority. Like it can take precedence over projectiles or other melee attacks. Not sure how powerful this would prove to be, or if it might even be too strong, but, just a thought.

Oh, and this is the reason why I could see it beating out projectiles.

I also made a thread on moveset ideas a while back. https://smashboards.com/threads/just-for-fun-how-would-you-change-samus-moveset.431670/
 
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#8
From what I can tell from her silhouette in the teaser, Samus will be sporting her Smash 4 design again. I didn't see any fins on her shoulders. That said, I hope that she will at least have the Samus Returns and/or Prime Trilogy design as an alt. costume. Heck, it would be cool to see her other Suits actually be suits instead of palette swaps (e.g. the actual Dark Suit or Light Suit instead of their color schemes alone). Others have mentioned this idea, but it's worth repeating.

As for gameplay, I say this a lot, but as happy and comfortable as I am with her current moveset, I wouldn't mind a new moveset or more changes to make her feel more like how she plays in her source material. For instance, that melee counter of hers from Samus Returns. That could either be another counter as a special, or just make it her new foward smash, and maybe just give it some hefty priority. Like it can take precedence over projectiles or other melee attacks. Not sure how powerful this would prove to be, or if it might even be too strong, but, just a thought.

Oh, and this is the reason why I could see it beating out projectiles.

I also made a thread on moveset ideas a while back. https://smashboards.com/threads/just-for-fun-how-would-you-change-samus-moveset.431670/
Honestly, I could see the Melee Counter being her u-tilt. Relatively similar hitboxes, with added function of just stopping projectiles. One of Samus' biggest problems in Sm4sh was that she often got outclassed by other zoning-based characters, so having some ability to stop enemy projectiles would be rather fantastic for her overall kit.

Also, it's shameful for the Super Missiles to not kill things at high percent. It broke my heart every time I hit an opponent with a super missile and they don't die... despite them being at 179%.
 
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Varia31

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#9
Honestly, I could see the Melee Counter being her u-tilt. Relatively similar hitboxes, with added function of just stopping projectiles. One of Samus' biggest problems in Sm4sh was that she often got outclassed by other zoning-based characters, so having some ability to stop enemy projectiles would be rather fantastic for her overall kit.

Also, it's shameful for the Super Missiles to not kill things at high percent. It broke my heart every time I hit an opponent with a super missile and they don't die... despite them being at 179%.
Yeah, as opposed to Melee where that was definitely a kill percent for the missiles. It's honestly really annoying that a freakin' missile to the face doesn't do more, nevermind that the Super Missiles in particular that she's using for her smash side B are stupidly powerful in their own games. The things cause localized earthquakes. I understand it's a fighting game and these things have to be balanced, but still.
 

KingDoop

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#10
I'd like to see her Melee Counter be her new f-smash, and with super armor, Little Mac style. Imagine a well timed f-smash powering through a Bowser drop kick...so satisfying
 

Varia31

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#11
I'd like to see her Melee Counter be her new f-smash, and with super armor, Little Mac style. Imagine a well timed f-smash powering through a Bowser drop kick...so satisfying
Considering she can power through a towering Metroid Queen or even Ridley lunging at her with that attack, that would be perfectly accurate to the game it comes from. lol
 

Quillion

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#12
I posted these moveset ideas over on the Veterans thread a while back, so I'll repost them here:

  • Projectile Normals: I hope this goes without saying at this point, but Samus NEEDS projectile normals if they want to make her both a more viable fighter AND more distinct from ZSS. Just change the following moves:
    • Neutral A: Change to Punch, Kick, then rapid fire Short Beam, similar to G&W's jab.
    • F-Tilt: Change this to F-Smash's current animation (I'll get to F-Smash in a second).
    • U-Smash: Change this awful move to a powerful upward shot.
    • F-Air: Change to diagonal downard rapid Short Beam shots.
    • U-Air: Change to upward rapid Short Beam shots.
    • B-Air: Change to backward mid-power Short Beam shot.
    • D-Air: Change to downward mid-power Short Beam shot.
  • Melee Counter: Make this her F-Smash. Without the countering thing, of course, but just do the "pistol whip" thing and make it deal heavy knockback normally.
  • Shinespark: Change the Dash Attack to reference it. Have her leave afterimages and deal fire damage.
  • Throws: Base them off of the Melee Counter animations.
    • Pummel: Samus shoots missiles point-blank into enemy while holding onto them.
    • F-Throw: Samus shoots a Super Missile point-blank while letting go of the enemy.
    • D-Throw: Samus knocks the enemy on the ground and shoots Super Missles point-blank into them.
    • B-Throw: Samus swings around the enemy and shoots missiles into their back.
    • U-Throw: Generally fine as it is, but change it so that an explosion appears when Samus throws the enemy up.
  • Final Smash: Change to "Aeion Burst". Samus activates Phase Drift (slows time), Lightning Armor (invincible and hurts enemies), and Beam Burst (changes A and B attack to a powerful volley of lasers) at the same time for 10 seconds.
 

IsmaR

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#16
Melee Counter functions differently than the word Counter would imply in Smash context. Think of it more like a parry in the traditional sense (interrupt the opponent's move while taking no damage rather than become invulnerable, get hit then counterattack).
 
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#17
Seeing as the Melee Counter is the first official melee attack in the Metroid series, I think its important for it to be included.


Perhaps as a new upsmash? Her upsmash has always been lackluster, and rather out of place. I suggested an uptilt earlier, but I've changed my mind on it.

Also, I felt we needed some Samus Returns art in here.


 
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Morbi

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#18
Seeing as the Melee Counter is the first official melee attack in the Metroid series, I think its important for it to be included.


Perhaps as a new upsmash? Her upsmash has always been lackluster, and rather out of place. I suggested an uptilt earlier, but I've changed my mind on it.

Also, I felt we needed some Samus Returns art in here.


Conversely, if it is just a one-off mechanic, I would honestly rather not have it. I am biased, however, I enjoy her up-smash for whatever reason.
 

Grizzexploder

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#21
Change uptilt into the Melee Counter from Samus Returns, which not only functions as a launcher/uppercut but also parries moves (so we won't have to replace a special with another Counter)
I prefer it being a uptilt rather than a smash attack as it's faster, which is important for parrying (and in Samus Returns, the Melee Counter comes out really quick, so an uptilt would reflect (no pun intended) this)
 
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Quillion

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#22
Change uptilt into the Melee Counter from Samus Returns, which not only functions as a launcher/uppercut but also parries moves (so we won't have to replace a special with another Counter)
I prefer it being a uptilt rather than a smash attack as it's faster, which is important for parrying (and in Samus Returns, the Melee Counter comes out really quick, so an uptilt would reflect (no pun intended) this)
Why would Samus need a parry when every character already has a parry in the perfect shield?
 

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#23
A parry in this sense would leave an opportunity to follow up with a quick move (which for Samus would be Jab, forward tilt, down tilt, and Screw Attack)

However if the Melee Counter functioned like it would in its source game, it would interrupt attacks rather than just block them. The interrupt would also add in a minor stun (closer to Little Mac's down-angled Forward Smash than flat out ZSS Paralyzer/down smash stun, conceptually at least). Which would be much more useful since so many of Samus' moves would then become viable "counterattacks," on top of Melee Counter itself being an offensive option (it even destroys weak projectiles in Samus Returns).
 
D

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#24
My hopes for Samus are:

1. Drop Other M design in favor of Samus Returns, Prime or literally anything else lol
2. Give her the Melee Counter in some capacity
3. Make Screw Attack more accurate to source material, meaning it should give more horizontal momentum
4. (pipedream) revamp Charge Shot into Charge Beam. It has a much more rapid rate of fire, and is charged similar to Kirby's Hammer Flip or Dedede's hammer in the sense that after you press the B button, you can move and jump but not really do anything else. The trade-off is the charged blast is not as powerful as before.
5. (super pipedream) Allow for some type of beam swap in connection with the Charge Beam, similar to other enhancing/altering moves like Shulk or Cloud. So you'd have the Wave Beam which is weaker but passes through walls and multiple foes, the Ice Beam that is slower but can freeze, and the Plasma Beam which deals more damage in a laser-like projectile but has a longer cool-down so it's more easily punishable. Again, all beam types can be charged.

These are literally just ideas I'm coming up with on the spot but it would really represent Samus better than what we have.
 

PF9

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#25
If there's a story mode, I'd like to see her team up with Pikachu again as well as with fellow bounty hunter Captain Falcon (who I ship her with).

Since I consider the Smash Pikachu to be Ash's Pikachu, through Pikachu Samus has met Ash and all his friends in my headcanons. I'd like an episode of the Pokemon anime to promote Smash Switch by having Samus appear in it explaining that the events of the Subspace Emissary took place before Pikachu met Ash thus making them canon to the Pokemon anime universe.
 

Quillion

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#26
If there's a story mode, I'd like to see her team up with Pikachu again as well as with fellow bounty hunter Captain Falcon (who I ship her with).

Since I consider the Smash Pikachu to be Ash's Pikachu, through Pikachu Samus has met Ash and all his friends in my headcanons. I'd like an episode of the Pokemon anime to promote Smash Switch by having Samus appear in it explaining that the events of the Subspace Emissary took place before Pikachu met Ash thus making them canon to the Pokemon anime universe.
Smash's portrayal of Pokémon is a weird gray area between being based on the anime and being based on the games; neither one or the other. That's never going to happen.
 

Varia31

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#27
I want to see Samus use a different Final Smash altogether. Zero Laser is cool and all, but, let's face it... it was completely made up for Smash Bros.

How about her activating 3 out of her 4 Aeion abilities from Samus Returns (4th being Scan Pulse, which would be worthless here)? She uses Phase Drift to slow down time, Lightning Armor to protect her and give her a killing strike (the Lightning Armor allowed her to have extended melee range, projecting bayonet like attacks from her cannon as she swung at things), and Beam Burst for racking up damage. Here's the kicker though: Phase Drift already drains her Aeion reserves, and using Beam Burst made that go down even quicker, and to that extent, hitting things with the lightning charged melee would do the same, so the same thing would apply here. Also, getting hit with Lightning Armor on would take a bit out of the Aeion gauge, too.

When I first thought of this idea, I thought it might be too powerful, and while it would definitely be a strong FS, it honestly would run out pretty quick, so you would have to pick your targets wisely and finish them off before you run out of Aeion. Best case scenario is that everyone is close to you, bunched up together while they slowly try to run away. Worst case is nobody is near you and you have to run to them. You would know how much time you have because an Aeion gauge would appear on screen near Samus' player icon. I imagine that Phase Drift would have the same effectiveness as Shadow's Chaos Control assist when it slows time.

Other ideas would have her commanding her ship to do a bombing run like in Metroid Prime 3, or to curl up into Morph Ball mode and nuke everyone to heck with a Power Bomb.
 
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#28
I want to see Samus use a different Final Smash altogether. Zero Laser is cool and all, but, let's face it... it was completely made up for Smash Bros.

How about her activating 3 out of her 4 Aeion abilities from Samus Returns (4th being Scan Pulse, which would be worthless here)? She uses Phase Drift to slow down time, Lightning Armor to protect her and give her a killing strike (the Lightning Armor allowed her to have extended melee range, projecting bayonet like attacks from her cannon as she swung at things), and Beam Burst for racking up damage. Here's the kicker though: Phase Drift already drains her Aeion reserves, and using Beam Burst made that go down even quicker, and to that extent, hitting things with the lightning charged melee would do the same, so the same thing would apply here. Also, getting hit with Lightning Armor on would take a bit out of the Aeion gauge, too.

When I first thought of this idea, I thought it might be too powerful, and while it would definitely be a strong FS, it honestly would run out pretty quick, so you would have to pick your targets wisely and finish them off before you run out of Aeion. Best case scenario is that everyone is close to you, bunched up together while they slowly try to run away. Worst case is nobody is near you and you have to run to them. You would know how much time you have because an Aeion gauge would appear on screen near Samus' player icon. I imagine that Phase Drift would have the same effectiveness as Shadow's Chaos Control assist when it slows time.

Other ideas would have her commanding her ship to do a bombing run like in Metroid Prime 3, or to curl up into Morph Ball mode and nuke everyone to heck with a Power Bomb.
I could imagine a sort of "Aeion Overload" type ability real easy. It wouldn't use a meter, as no Final Smash uses resources nor should they, but a time limit. Phase Drift, Lightning Armor, and Beam Burst all activate at once and Samus has a limited amount of time to annihilate. Though it's not like Samus can just shoot like in Metroid, she has to use attacks.

That being said, transformation final smashes tend to be overly weak. They tend to be super easy to avoid and, if you're playing on a large stage (which is highly likely since you're using Smash Balls), you're not going to hit anybody.

I don't know, the Zero Laser is pretty effective... Maybe if they re-colored it and called it the Hyper Beam. Would that work?
 

Varia31

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#31
I could imagine a sort of "Aeion Overload" type ability real easy. It wouldn't use a meter, as no Final Smash uses resources nor should they, but a time limit. Phase Drift, Lightning Armor, and Beam Burst all activate at once and Samus has a limited amount of time to annihilate. Though it's not like Samus can just shoot like in Metroid, she has to use attacks.

That being said, transformation final smashes tend to be overly weak. They tend to be super easy to avoid and, if you're playing on a large stage (which is highly likely since you're using Smash Balls), you're not going to hit anybody.

I don't know, the Zero Laser is pretty effective... Maybe if they re-colored it and called it the Hyper Beam. Would that work?
Well, that's basically what I had in mind for how it works, just that shooting makes it go down faster. I suppose that it being on a timer fulfills what Phase Drift already does to the Aeion gauge, just that you don't see how long you have.

I don't want Samus to retain her basic moveset for this FS though. lol
Beam Burst changes how her cannon functions, so I imagine that the burst would replace the Charge Shot, and her melee attacks would have the lightning projections come out to act as kill moves. The idea here is that shooting someone a bit would rack up their damage scary-fast, and then you swing at them to send them on their way to being KO'd.

If you keep the Zero Laser, then yes, make it rainbow colored and call it Hyper Beam. My whole reason for suggesting this is because I want her to use an actual ability from her games. Not something generic and made up. So hey, maybe dropping a Power Bomb then. Very large area of effect, works like a smart bomb in that it racks up damage and then sends them flying, except that it would be much stronger, because it's a freakin' mini-nuke.
 
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D

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#32
Yeah I'm all for replacing her Zero Laser with something from her games; shouldn't be that hard. But I'm pretty sure Sakurai has never played a Metroid game. At least that's my theory.
 

Quillion

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#35
OK, so how about they turn her fair into the Mii Gunner forward smash/up air?

She holds her cannon forward and fires a bunch of shots like her Beam Burst ability from Samus Returns?
Honestly, Samus just needs projectile normals in general.

Not just because it makes her more faithful to her games, but with Zero Suit Samus focusing more on melee combat, Samus's normalset should be revamped to be projectile-heavy.
 
D

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#36
Honestly, Samus just needs projectile normals in general.

Not just because it makes her more faithful to her games, but with Zero Suit Samus focusing more on melee combat, Samus's normalset should be revamped to be projectile-heavy.
I agree. More recent Smash inclusions like Mega Man, Mii Gunner and Villager showed that projectile normals can work, which is just something they never did in the original games.

In fact that they could just straight up give the Mii Gunner aerials to Samus and that would be more accurate to her character (though ideally they should be tweaked a bit). Her Smash attack ought to be changed to the Melee Counter imo. Or the Up Smash.
 
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#37
At least a while ago I believed that there should be a care with her Specials because in the more traditional Metroids like in the Super Metroid you basically avoided the enemy movements while you fired at them. In Smash this is impossible mainly because her Side Special has missiles. Maybe using the Side Talts to switch between missile and shooting functions would be a good option. Other options can be tested. Samus already had many skills. Oh, and of course, allow her to alternate between her and the Zero Suit Samus.
 
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#38
I'll be quick and copy and paste my comment from this week on "Revamp a Veteran!"

Balance wise, the patches of SSB4 were actually pretty kind to her, and they’ve gone a pretty long way in making her viable. Now, instead of being complete trash, she actually does have plenty of potential when mastered (just not as much as characters like Ryu). That being said, I still feel it necessary to buff her slightly so that Nintendo’s deadliest bounty hunter can finally shine to the fullest. Many changes were influenced by her appearance in Melee, where to me, she was both a very balanced character with appropriate and reasonable strengths and weaknesses, and also pretty fun to fight against. She and Captain Falcon in Melee are generally what I feel all characters should be around, viability-wise. Also, I agree with adding a few projectile normals, but like some others have said, Samus is actually pretty good at adapting and fighting close up when the situation calls for it, unlike some other characters with projectile normals, so I only added a few. (Plus, it was kinda hard to decide which normals should change to projectiles).

General


  • Some of her animations were altered to better reflect some stuff in the Metroid series (like forward aerial). Also, she now bends down into Morph Ball form to crouch, and can crawl (basically her rolling in Morph Ball form). May not see much use at all, but hey, still cool **** that just seems natural for her. Finally, like in PM, her costumes have glowing visors and lights.

  • Samus is heavier (108 → 110)

  • Some of her attacks have unnecessary hurtbox extensions that are totally invisible to the player (until someone hits you from a range where you clearly shouldn’t have been hit). Say good riddance to those.

  • Her side taunt has a practical effect now; similarly to Ice Mode in Project M, Samus can now alter the properties of Charge Shot with each usage; she swaps between the Wave Beam, Ice Beam, and Plasma.

  • Samus now has visible battle damage (a beta element from Brawl; like, think of how Little Mac gets bruises on his face after takin' lots of damage). Her suit will occasionally fizz and sparkle if she takes extreme damage (like, over 150%), as if starting to power down. At even higher percents, her visor will begin to crack slightly.
Ground Attacks


  • Neutral attack’s first and second hit now consistently connect at high damages, by an undoing of it’s base knockback increase (8 → 0). They didn’t have the issue of not connecting at low percents in all previous Smash games, so why here does it often slip?

  • Forward tilt has been changed. It’s basically Mii Gunner’s current forward tilt.

  • Down tilt deals 2 more damage (12% → 14%) and increased knockback scaling (48 → 60). Basically, her Brawl down tilt.

  • Dash attack clean has less base knockback (80 → 22), but it has higher knockback scaling (60 → 105), and more damage (10% → 13%). Basically her Melee dash attack. Also, dash attack creates afterimages now and has a flame effect, purely cosmetic changes made so it resembled the Shinespark even more.

  • Samus has a new up smash; It’s basically her Ice Mode up Smash from Project M. I don’t have frame data/knockback properties of it, but it’s just a single hit, which, while dealing less damage than her current up smash if all hits connect (18% → 17%), has a slightly horizontal launch angle and due to being a single hit, is much more consistent in KOing.

  • Down smash has more base knockback (70 → 110), more knockback scaling (46/48 → 50), more damage (10/12% → 16/15%) and it’s angle is different (31 → 120). However, to compensate, it has more ending lag (FAF 45 → 52). This makes it function identically to it’s incarnation in Melee.


Air Attacks


  • Samus has a new forward aerial; she fires a bunch of energy shots forwards, kinda like the Mii Gunner’s up air (except horizontally, of course). This also resembles the Beam Burst from Samus Returns.
Grab/throws


  • Samus has a slightly faster grab (Frame 16 → 14).

  • The Extended Grapple from NTSC Melee was reintroduced. You know…… that thing where you could triple the length of grab and give it homing properties by doing a pretty damn complicated button combo. I mean, the Extended Grapple never saw much use, if at all, but it was fun for popping off every now and then.

  • Samus has a new forward throw; it is now the Melee Counter from Samus Returns. This is, to my knowledge, her first melee ability, so it’s only natural it would appear in some way. It has more base knockback (60 → 65) and much more knockback scaling (55 → 145) than her old forward throw, now making it a KO throw.

Special moves


  • Charge Shot has better priority at full charge. I’ve seen Lucas’ PK Fire cancel out a fully charged Charge Shot. I mean, c’mon.

  • While the Super Missiles have less base knockback (50 → 30), they have more damage (10% → 12%) and knockback scaling (65 → 100). This means they can now potentially KO once the opponent reaches 150%, just like in Melee (what can I say? I love Melee Samus).

  • Bombs now explode as soon as they touch the opponent. Another Melee-based change. The stall is also slightly greater. Just like Brawl.

  • Samus’s Final Smash, Zero Laser, functions the same; however, it is now rainbow colored, and it has been renamed the Hyper Beam (based on the ability of the same name in the Metroid games)

So yep. As a TLDR, I almost completely reverted her to her Melee incarnation, while including a couple of her less sucky elements from Brawl (THE DOWN TILT, MAN!) and slightly altering costemetic details to make her better resemble her appearance in her home series proper. (Also, making her stronger overall. Does anybody else find it sad that ZERO SUIT SAMUS does more damage and knockback than her armored counterpart?



....Oh yeah, remember how I said that her side taunt causes her to swap out neutral special properties? Yeah, I’ll expand further now.


  • Ice Beam: Charges to full in about half the time and also shoots faster (Frame 16 → 13), and freezes foes (obviously) if they have accumulated high enough damage. The angle launched is different (40 → 70). However, it only deals half the damage (25 → 12.5), so you’d be pretty hard pressed to kill with it. More for utility than direct kills.

  • Wave Beam: It can pass through objects, and like the Charge Shot in Smash 64, the Wave Beam continues on forever until it hits something. Resembles it’s appearance in Metroid Fusion. It has more range and deals extra shield damage (+2). However, it is much weaker at full charge (Knockback Scaling: 62 → 56), being unable to effectively KO under 130%, and it charges and travels slower.

  • Plasma Beam: As those who have played the 2D Metroids could probably guess, this is the strongest out of all 4 of the beams, dealing higher base knockback (30 → 37) and scaling (62 → 70), making it a deadly-*** move that you do NOT want to deal with. It also acts more like a laser, going through multiple foes at a time rather than stopping at the first one. The trade-off? It charges reeeallly slowly. Takes about 1.5 times the original to charge to full, and it fires slower (Frame 16 → 19).

And that’s just her default Neutral Special. Her custom neutral specials swap out those beams for even more beams, all of which I haven’t decided yet. I might make another post later when I finalize them. (Samus has a LOT of beams, folks.)

And one last thing; in a few of my other posts, I explained my picks for alternate costumes for some characters, and I'll do the same for Samus. Project M really had the right idea for Samus' potential alts, so there's no real point in reinventing the wheel. (She probably has more potential for alts than anybody else)




(They also have an improved Dark Samus alt, and I hear that she was going to get her PED Suit from Metroid Prime 3: Corruption had the mod continued.
 
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