Samus smash switch speculation thread

[Bowserboy3]

Unfortunately, I have seen that she continues to charge the shot as usual. Which prevents us from playing with her in Smash the same way we played her in the games of the series: dodge by jumping and morph ball and attacking enemies from a distance with shots. At least in most games with side vision. With that side special acting like that, you can not do that right either. Besides other things, like it looks like she does not give that mortal when you jump forward. And also the speed of Samus in her games that will not necessarily match what you have in this new game. I still think that another method to shoot consecutive shots and charge shots, united with the use of missiles and super missiles with the B, alternating the shooting modes with the taunt, even in the air to eliminate the animation, would be interesting modifications to character act in a stronger and more authentic way.

Edit: The bombs still seem a bit pointless

I'm going to assume English isn't one of your main languages and you used Google Translate or something, because I struggled to understand the majority of that post.

 

[Varia31]

The bombs still seem a bit pointless

I wouldn't say that the bombs are pointless just yet. They seem to explode on contact for the first time since Melee, and if bomb jumping is good, we'll have another way to help us recover.

 

[Another K-2L Survivor]

I’m not sure if this is actually what they were going for with the new palette swap, but if it is, I VERY much approve:

Spoiler

 

[Diem]

SSBWiki claims that it's a reference to the Federation Demo Troopers in that one part of Metroid Prime 3... which I think is a huge stretch. Though the fact that that alt color isn't just the Phazon Suit is extremely odd. It and the green color are the only ones without a clear source in the games.

 

[Aetheri]

I’m not sure if this is actually what they were going for with the new palette swap, but if it is, I VERY much approve:

Spoiler

View attachment 151773

I do have to admit, as much as it sucks that she lost the blue colours on that alt (black and blue is one of my favourite colour combinations btw) the suit still looks pretty damn sick.

But if Dark Samus is playable, then I'll gladly take the trade.

 

[Crystanium]

I’m not sure if this is actually what they were going for with the new palette swap, but if it is, I VERY much approve:

Spoiler

View attachment 151773

Way better than the demolition trooper. Now, if only the color of the visor and other lights will transition. SmashWiki no longer says Samus' new suit is based on the demolition trooper. What would be interesting is if this is a new suit in Metroid Prime 4.

 

[Uffe]

I’m not sure if this is actually what they were going for with the new palette swap, but if it is, I VERY much approve:

Spoiler

View attachment 151773

Very nice guess. I'm guessing it's a new suit in Metroid Prime 4. Still, if it's not, I'd agree with your opinion on where this color comes from. And while the Dark Samus palette was replaced, technically this color would be is from the origin of Dark Samus.

 

[LancerStaff]

This is going to sound random but I’m curious... Does it seem like Samus’s Bair has improved knockback in any way?

 

[Varia31]

This is going to sound random but I’m curious... Does it seem like Samus’s Bair has improved knockback in any way?

Hard to tell. In a match I saw of her fighting Pikachu, it seemed weaker. Then in another match against Ganondorf, it seemed stronger! So I can't say for certain.

Found this on DeviantART, created by Omni42. It's a proposed "Echo Fighter" variation of Samus herself, but it would honestly work better as an overall rework of our gal as it's different enough to set it apart. Link to the page in case the picture in the Spoiler tag doesn't show up well here: https://www.deviantart.com/0mni42/art/Hypothetical-Smash-Bros-Character-Prime-Samus-753299943

Spoiler: Prime Samus

 

[DNeon]

Hard to tell. In a match I saw of her fighting Pikachu, it seemed weaker. Then in another match against Ganondorf, it seemed stronger! So I can't say for certain.

Found this on DeviantART, created by Omni42. It's a proposed "Echo Fighter" variation of Samus herself, but it would honestly work better as an overall rework of our gal as it's different enough to set it apart. Link to the page in case the picture in the Spoiler tag doesn't show up well here: https://www.deviantart.com/0mni42/art/Hypothetical-Smash-Bros-Character-Prime-Samus-753299943

Spoiler: Prime Samus

View attachment 152311

Stuff like this is awesome and just makes me frustrated that Sakurai never goes back and modifies existing characters but will also make 3 versions of Link and have them all use THE SAME MOVESET. We could easily have 2-3 Ganons, RPG Mario, a WarioWare and Warioland Wario, multiple Samuses/MegaMen/Links to represent the dozens upon dozens of differing games in their franchises.

*sigh* I love his dedication to detail but god do I hate his stubbornness.

 

[Diem]

Stuff like this is awesome and just makes me frustrated that Sakurai never goes back and modifies existing characters but will also make 3 versions of Link and have them all use THE SAME MOVESET. We could easily have 2-3 Ganons, RPG Mario, a WarioWare and Warioland Wario, multiple Samuses/MegaMen/Links to represent the dozens upon dozens of differing games in their franchises.

*sigh* I love his dedication to detail but god do I hate his stubbornness.

Modifying existing characters is always a harrowing thing to do. Link got some big changes this game, but if they had completely overhauled him, there would be people complaining that Sakurai ruined him, you can bet money on that. Same with Ganondorf. On the one hand, people want him to not be so much of a Captain Falcon clone. But at the same time, he's been like that for 17 years, so everyone's become so accustomed to it that totally reworking him would also turn a lot of people away. So for both these characters, small steps were made, rather than drastic overhauls.

Young Link and Toon Link also have similar movesets not because, in the best of worlds, Sakurai would want them to be clones. Young Link was one of many clones in Melee added to pad out the roster, since the game's development period was only 13 months and they didn't have a lot of time to add completely unique characters, so Young Link copies Link's moveset. Toon Link was a similar situation, where he was added really late into development, along with Jigglypuff, Wolf, and Sonic (hence why they had no involvement in the story for SSE).

So it's not really stubbornness as much as it is just making necessary compromises. Smash's roster size is much larger than any other fighting game, and most fighting games make huge cuts to their roster in each game before adding more characters. Street Fighter V launched with an abysmally low character roster. Each character was drastically different, but at the cost of content. Meanwhile, Smash Ultimate is at 65 (or 68 if you count Echo Fighters) and counting. Compromises have to be made. Echo Fighters and clones should have their own movesets, but if it's the difference between reusing/remixing a moveset and not having that character at all, I'd rather have the character.

 

[DNeon]

Modifying existing characters is always a harrowing thing to do. Link got some big changes this game, but if they had completely overhauled him, there would be people complaining that Sakurai ruined him, you can bet money on that. Same with Ganondorf. On the one hand, people want him to not be so much of a Captain Falcon clone. But at the same time, he's been like that for 17 years, so everyone's become so accustomed to it that totally reworking him would also turn a lot of people away. So for both these characters, small steps were made, rather than drastic overhauls.

Young Link and Toon Link also have similar movesets not because, in the best of worlds, Sakurai would want them to be clones. Young Link was one of many clones in Melee added to pad out the roster, since the game's development period was only 13 months and they didn't have a lot of time to add completely unique characters, so Young Link copies Link's moveset. Toon Link was a similar situation, where he was added really late into development, along with Jigglypuff, Wolf, and Sonic (hence why they had no involvement in the story for SSE).

So it's not really stubbornness as much as it is just making necessary compromises. Smash's roster size is much larger than any other fighting game, and most fighting games make huge cuts to their roster in each game before adding more characters. Street Fighter V launched with an abysmally low character roster. Each character was drastically different, but at the cost of content. Meanwhile, Smash Ultimate is at 65 (or 68 if you count Echo Fighters) and counting. Compromises have to be made. Echo Fighters and clones should have their own movesets, but if it's the difference between reusing/remixing a moveset and not having that character at all, I'd rather have the character.

You can never please everyone and that's a fact that needs to be accepted. Sakurai decides to stick with the status quo over evolving and (if he does his job well) improving the game. The entire concept of bringing back every veteran ever is part of that philosophy, so it shouldn't be stated that they don't have time to itterate on the characters because of how many there are when there's so many because Sakurai puts more emphasis on keeping things the same.

 

[Diem]

You can never please everyone and that's a fact that needs to be accepted. Sakurai decides to stick with the status quo over evolving and (if he does his job well) improving the game. The entire concept of bringing back every veteran ever is part of that philosophy, so it shouldn't be stated that they don't have time to itterate on the characters because of how many there are when there's so many because Sakurai puts more emphasis on keeping things the same.

Well, Sakurai said recently that the decision for Smash 5 was either reduce the roster to a third of its current size and drastically change everything, or bring back all the characters and only make smaller changes.

He made the right choice. Smash 4 was so close to having everyone that every time I played it, I was disappointed that Snake, Pichu, Ice Climbers, etc. weren't all there, too. So it makes sense to build off of that foundation to bring back the remaining lost characters and cap off the series (for now) with the "ultimate" entry, as an opportunity like this will never happen again. This means that changes to characters will be minor, instead of complete changes to their movesets, as some people would like. Overhauling around 60 characters and not messing things up is almost impossible. It's surprising that Link got changed as much as he did, really, but I suppose it's because there's the other two Links as alternatives if people don't like the new Link, which isn't a luxury the other characters have. He got more attention than most characters, like Samus, whose only major change was being able to charge in midair.

The next Smash game will be the one to cut the roster size down and give Mario, Link, Samus, etc. brand new movesets in a totally new gameplay design. It'll throw out the status quo and reinvent the game, since there's really a place for things to go otherwise after Ultimate. But Ultimate was the game we needed right now.

 

[Crystanium]

I've been ready for a roster reduction since Sm4sh. I would like it if Sakurai and his team kept Samus and Ridley and removed ZSS if it had to come down to who was getting cut.

 

[Varia31]

You know what Samus REALLY needs for an alt. costume? This. Source: Samus and Joey Manga (credit, Metroid Database and Wikitroid)

 

[Varia31]

Sorry for double post, but it would seem that Samus has a FOURTH win pose! The only different one I’ve seen before this one is her seemingly jumping down to the ground and then aiming her gun. But this? I like...
Skip to 3:26

EDIT
Okay, yeah. Here’s a good look at that other win pose. At 2:47

 

[IsmaR]

Edit: Found another of her classic win pose.

Direct feed look at the first one above.

Seeing it in action/motion, this alt might quickly become my favorite.

I'll go back watch through the gameplay/update this to include timestamps for any Samus gameplay (the one in the match I show wound up winning the mini competition).

My initial impressions are that Samus looks a lot more fluid/faster in motion (rolls are much quicker and bomb jumping gives you a lot more air than I thought initially). Obviously item/FFA turns down what would be regular 1v1 damage/knockback, but you can still tell things like back throw launch much further this time.

 

[meleebrawler]

Edit: Found another of her classic win pose.

Direct feed look at the first one above.

Seeing it in action/motion, this alt might quickly become my favorite.

I'll go back watch through the gameplay/update this to include timestamps for any Samus gameplay (the one in the match I show wound up winning the mini competition).

My initial impressions are that Samus looks a lot more fluid/faster in motion (rolls are much quicker and bomb jumping gives you a lot more air than I thought initially). Obviously item/FFA turns down what would be regular 1v1 damage/knockback, but you can still tell things like back throw launch much further this time.

Not once in the match that followed the pose did I see the jab combo fail to link.

 

[Wonks]

I didn't want to make a new thread at this time, but I thought of something the other day I've never seem anyone mention.

At the end of the Ridley trailer, Samus "transforms" into Zero Suit Samus. This harkens back to Brawl's reveal trailer. We know that the only reason why the transforming last gen was dropped was because of the lack of power (a blessing in disguise), but it wasn't Sakurai's vision on how characters should play.

We also know Sakurai is meticulous on what's in his trailers, and enjoys teasing future announcements, as was the case for the Little Mac boxing ring and Dark Pit (are they in? are they not?)

I'm really wondering of transforming characters like Samus/Zamus, Zelda/Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer might be options.

I say options because Sakurai must know many--nay, most--prefer having a single character fighter.

 

[Space Detective]

I didn't want to make a new thread at this time, but I thought of something the other day I've never seem anyone mention.

At the end of the Ridley trailer, Samus "transforms" into Zero Suit Samus. This harkens back to Brawl's reveal trailer. We know that the only reason why the transforming last gen was dropped was because of the lack of power (a blessing in disguise), but it wasn't Sakurai's vision on how characters should play.

We also know Sakurai is meticulous on what's in his trailers, and enjoys teasing future announcements, as was the case for the Little Mac boxing ring and Dark Pit (are they in? are they not?)

I'm really wondering of transforming characters like Samus/Zamus, Zelda/Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer might be options.

I say options because Sakurai must know many--nay, most--prefer having a single character fighter.

Of course, the problem here is that Samus is in the demo, and we see perfectly well that her Final Smash doesn't transform her into Zero Suit Samus.
I want to say that you also see the fighter info during ZSS's part of the Direct, and that she remains ZSS during her Final Smash, but I don't remember for sure and I don't feel like looking it up.

And we're certainly not seeing the Zelda and Sheik transformations come back; they're both in the demo and not only do they both still have their Smash 4 Down Bs but Zelda's even received changes.

 

[DNeon]

I also think that transformation is now being used as Pkmn Trainer's unique gimmick. It certainly made a return but I wouldn't count on it being utilised much.

 

[meleebrawler]

I also think that transformation is now being used as Pkmn Trainer's unique gimmick. It certainly made a return but I wouldn't count on it being utilised much.

I could see it in a lesser form for certain newcomers like a theoretical Rex & Pyra/Mythra where switching doesn't grant new moves outside a handful, but also changes attributes like Monado Arts. But only Pokemon Trainer will have three totally distinct movesets in one.

That ZSS scene was probably done just for character. Samus doesn't give up, and you don't honestly expect them to just let Ridley win against her, do you?

 

[kamus_aran]

Sorry for double post, but it would seem that Samus has a FOURTH win pose! The only different one I’ve seen before this one is her seemingly jumping down to the ground and then aiming her gun. But this? I like...
Skip to 3:26

EDIT
Okay, yeah. Here’s a good look at that other win pose. At 2:47

Her new win pose looks so cool. Is this really her fourth win pose in the game or she still only has 3 and they've replaced one of the old ones with this?

 

[WarioJim]

Hello!

I've been wondering how has Samus been changed in the demos, and her current balance? Because I've seen a lot of pro players saying she's worse/bad, yet the of the balance changes I've read (the ones documented on SmashWiki anyway) there are only 3 nerfs observed, with only 1 that seems to be properly detrimental.

So yeah, what do you guys think? (are there any other changes undocumented?)

 

[meleebrawler]

Hello!

I've been wondering how has Samus been changed in the demos, and her current balance? Because I've seen a lot of pro players saying she's worse/bad, yet the of the balance changes I've read (the ones documented on SmashWiki anyway) there are only 3 nerfs observed, with only 1 that seems to be properly detrimental.

So yeah, what do you guys think? (are there any other changes undocumented?)

People are just trying to play her like in 4 and can't be bothered to explore new strategies with air charging and whatnot.

 

[Another K-2L Survivor]

^^^ This.

Every time I think about all of her new changes, I get excited about the new mixups and options she has now that she’s never had before. It’s so disheartening to see pros ignore that potential because they can’t utilize her exactly how they have in the past.

 

[meleebrawler]

Put it this way: if you're on Final Destination and are in the air some distance away while lacking a reflector, you are now always at the mercy of being hit or baited by charging a shot in the air. Or you could shoot missiles to burn airdodges instead if your charge is too low. Get past those? Now you have to deal with Grapple Beam and bombs that explode if you touch them. These can open you up for a followup that knocks you away with the generally higher knockback of Samus's moves and puts you back at square one.

 

[DNeon]

^^^ This.

Every time I think about all of her new changes, I get excited about the new mixups and options she has now that she’s never had before. It’s so disheartening to see pros ignore that potential because they can’t utilize her exactly how they have in the past.

Or maybe a couple hours of gameplay aren't enough to formulate an entire new metagame around things as intricate as frame traps and mixups so they stick to rating her by what they know? Where's your MLG combo video of these obvious options?

 

[Another K-2L Survivor]

Or maybe a couple hours of gameplay aren't enough to formulate an entire new metagame around things as intricate as frame traps and mixups so they stick to rating her by what they know? Where's your MLG combo video of these obvious options?

I’m not asking them to “formulate an entire new metagame.” I’m asking them not to condemn a character to bottom tier in the new game, based on outdated information about her from the last game, without even remotely acknowledging the new potential options that she has.

And you don’t have to craft an “MLG combo video” to speculate that Samus will be able to do more in Ultimate. Others have written that out far better than I could (like Meleebrawler literally a post above yours).

 

[IsmaR]

Impressions/information comes in time, and obviously everything is still subject to change.

A few players have been able to attend demo events for multiple days, and have at least started compiling their thoughts/have begun testing things to see what does and does not stick. Afro Smash posted his thoughts from the recent UK demo here:

Samus in Smash Ultimate - AfrOpinions

Read: https://t.co/SZATKQFQMv

— Afro Smash (@TheAfroSmash) July 29, 2018

 

[meleebrawler]

I’m not asking them to “formulate an entire new metagame.” I’m asking them not to condemn a character to bottom tier in the new game, based on outdated information about her from the last game, without even remotely acknowledging the new potential options that she has.

And you don’t have to craft an “MLG combo video” to speculate that Samus will be able to do more in Ultimate. Others have written that out far better than I could (like Meleebrawler literally a post above yours).

These changes really do seem geared to make her more of a heavyweight zoner with the power that entails with the weight class, her moves generally being better at giving her space or time to charge. 4 Samus was kind of a confused character that didn't really know whether she wanted to be a combo-heavy brawler or a zoner, but now her gameplan is clear; use her zoning options to restrict opponent's options before moving in to deliver a strong close quarters hit and knock them away, before charging and then repeating the process.

I never really understood why people think homing missiles are useless, even in 4. Sure they're weak and not fast enough for neutral, but they're good at getting reactions from people in the air, especially now that airdodges are bigger commitments.

 

[Bowserboy3]

For me, the game is still to young (it's in it's demo phase for god's sake). People are still trying to play Samus much like her Smash 4 self.

Yes, she no longer has Dash Attack. But know what she has now?

LOW LANDING LAG AERIALS.

This is an area Samus actually struggled with in Smash 4. Her approach game was heavily limited to Zair/Dash Attack and then mixup with Grab.

Yes, Zair is harder to use in this game, but it's still functional. Grabs are better for her in startup and endlag (still poor overall but a much MUCH better tether grab now!).

But now, SHE CAN SPACE AERIALS ON SHIELD MUCH SAFER AS AN APPROACH!

Nair has (last I checked) between 10 and 12 frames of landing lag? Think of Marth/Lucina Nair in Smash 4 - how safe was that? Yeah... and Samus's Nair does more damage and doesn't need to be spaced... just putting that out there...

What about landing Nair on shield into instant Charge Shot for instant shield pressure? Nair is going to be a GOOD move I feel.

What about getting up off of ledge easier now with Fair's lower landing lag? There are so many more options available to theorycraft with her thanks to the reduced landing lag.

All I am saying is - give it time.

Plus, there could be many more changes yet to see before the game releases. Right now, I think people are overreacting to Dash Attack, while still trying to play Smash 4 Samus.

---
EDIT:

SAMUS NAIR HAS JUST 9 FRAMES OF LANDING LAG.

Here's an amazing spreadsheet of pretty much all recorded changes in the demo so far, WITH frame data comparisons - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...t9Fk2zmmSvcEH8rBy6GVAHEtQk/edit#gid=519658986

 

[meleebrawler]

For me, the game is still to young (it's in it's demo phase for god's sake). People are still trying to play Samus much like her Smash 4 self.

Yes, she no longer has Dash Attack. But know what she has now?

LOW LANDING LAG AERIALS.

This is an area Samus actually struggled with in Smash 4. Her approach game was heavily limited to Zair/Dash Attack and then mixup with Grab.

Yes, Zair is harder to use in this game, but it's still functional. Grabs are better for her in startup and endlag (still poor overall but a much MUCH better tether grab now!).

But now, SHE CAN SPACE AERIALS ON SHIELD MUCH SAFER AS AN APPROACH!

Nair has (last I checked) between 10 and 12 frames of landing lag? Think of Marth/Lucina Nair in Smash 4 - how safe was that? Yeah... and Samus's Nair does more damage and doesn't need to be spaced... just putting that out there...

What about landing Nair on shield into instant Charge Shot for instant shield pressure? Nair is going to be a GOOD move I feel.

What about getting up off of ledge easier now with Fair's lower landing lag? There are so many more options available to theorycraft with her thanks to the reduced landing lag.

All I am saying is - give it time.

Plus, there could be many more changes yet to see before the game releases. Right now, I think people are overreacting to Dash Attack, while still trying to play Smash 4 Samus.

---
EDIT:

SAMUS NAIR HAS JUST 9 FRAMES OF LANDING LAG.

Here's an amazing spreadsheet of pretty much all recorded changes in the demo so far, WITH frame data comparisons - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...t9Fk2zmmSvcEH8rBy6GVAHEtQk/edit#gid=519658986

With the tweaks to Samus's zoning (contact explosive bombs, "Lloid" Super Missile), I feel that Samus won't often have to make the first move when approaching.

 

[Varia31]

Random aesthetic change I’m noticing as of the Dark Samus footage: when Samus fires a Super Missile, her visor and suit lights briefly turn blue.
At 1:40

 

[Crystanium]

I have a feeling Dark Samus is going to be SSB4 Samus, and while I will continue to main Samus as I have always, Dark Samus might be the better of the two if such is the case. Also, look at the width of Dark Samus' arm cannon when she uses f-smash.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have a feeling Dark Samus is going to be SSB4 Samus, and while I will continue to main Samus as I have always, Dark Samus might be the better of the two if such is the case. Also, look at the width of Dark Samus' arm cannon when she uses f-smash.

You can probably expect a general drop in kill power if Dark Samus is indeed more combo-oriented. That or her zoning is weaker.

 

[Crystanium]

You can probably expect a general drop in kill power if Dark Samus is indeed more combo-oriented. That or her zoning is weaker.

If that's the case, she'd give me a reason to drop the queen of combos but not kill moves.

 

[Reila]

I guess Dark Samus being combo-oriented fits her aggressive nature, though I would prefer if she was the one focused on zoning.

 

[KingBroly]

Samus needs a better roll now that Dark Samus doesn't use the Morph Ball to do so

 

[meleebrawler]

Samus needs a better roll now that Dark Samus doesn't use the Morph Ball to do so

ESAM wasn't the only one, and I was talking about Dark Samus' dash attack being more like Samus' dash attack from SSB4 before ESAM made that video. Check some of my posts around the room.



I ended up with 42 frames for Dark Samus' roll. Samus' roll in SSBU from the Samus versus Ridley battle from the 2018 invitational is 38 frames. It appears to have a 10.53% increase in frames on the second roll, however, making Samus' second roll 42 frames. Now, consider in the video that Dark Samus air-dodged first before rolling. It would appear then that the dodging mechanic includes dodge, air-dodge, and rolling as all one and the same, as ZeRo has suspected. This means Dark Samus' roll may just be the same as Samus' roll in terms of frames. It just looks different.

I'm not gonna stop quoting this until everyone stops spouting misinformation over a mere animation change.