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Samus MU Thread

WizKid911

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Very surprised that I don't see a mu thread yet. Somebody is slacking lol. So I am going to talk about some of the mu's that I know very well. I couldn't play her for obvious reasons, and I had a good hold on her with melee samus but so much time passed between me not playing melee anymore, getting her back in project m that I feel like I have to learn her all over again. I don't have much mu experience yet but I'm sure that out of the hundreds of thousands of people that come on here somebody can give some good advice.
 

WizKid911

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First off im gonna start with..... sheik -_____-. Now this is a bad matchup for samus, a horrible match up. Sheik's momentum on the ground along with her dash attack is extremely fast and has high priority. My friend that plays her doesn't tilt juggle like a normal sheik but he is hella accurate when it comes to needles and f-air spikes. With sheik you don't want to be in the air and you want to shield a little more unless you have good timing and can pick her off. You never want to come directly from above because sheik's up air has more priority than your options. Be wary of needles off of the edge. Mine hopping is difficult if sheik blows them up before you the first one blows up. A good thing to use against sheik is the ice f-air and the morph ball for quick getaways. Charge your blast as soon as you can because you wont get a chance if sheik is onstage with you. Grab grab grab. Sheiks first jump isnt very high so I believe you can grab her out of the air unless they double jump. I usually down throw into nair. I dont think you can down throwers into blast anymore because they bounce too high. Also down throw into ice fair is super sexy. Im sure there is somevody else that has had this mu so if you feel llike I am saying something thats wrong or forgetting something then just let me know.
 

MVP

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Many people have been talking about MU vs characters like mario, wolf, etc that quote "outcamp" samus through the spamming of their projectiles. And rushing MU like falcon and shiek, who give you no time to spam missiles to gain some distance between you two. I'd like to shed some light on these MU's...

i personally believe that samus is the one that outcamps (wins the mid-long range game) them! A extremely underutilized tool samus has vs these characters is the godly zair.

you can virtually instantly execute and cancel a medium to full length zair by jumping with x or y then immediately pushing L or R followed by another immediate A input. this allows for rapid Zair pressure. Also, being very low to the ground when executing, this work against smaller characters like Pikachu too

another thing people should know about her Zair is when it hits a projectile (fireballs, lazers, etc) if you execute a shortened zair, when it hits it will clank the projectile and actually instantly extend to the full length of the zair hitting the spammer behind it. I can easily out-range my friends mario causing him to approach and not me. Zair is also godly for edge guarding characters whose recovers come above the stage, setting them up for a killer Dair.
 

WizKid911

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I haven't had enough practice with zair. I didn't play much of brawl so I never used it until the recent update so I suck bawls with it. I find myself jumping to high or hitting the ground before it comes out. I will definitely practice that out though
 

MVP

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its interesting to me, cause the way you see other people do Zair like a delayed wavedash. But you dont even need to touch the analog stick (you can use forward or backwards for even more accurate spacing, but i just want to tell the basics). It faster to do it my way and you're closer to the ground

EDIT: i'm gunna post that in another thread for more traffic
 

Blondie.

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I can confirm that zair is great. It gives her so much stage control it's ridiculous. I'm super new to Samus (never played her in melee), so I'm still learning how to apply all her tools, but zair seems very essential to her gameplay. It harasses people so well, which can be quite useful to throw people off their rhythm. At certain %s it also forces them into a tech position, which you can follow up with a charge shot.
 

JerkPhil

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Before Samus was in PM, I didn't like the game. Now with Samus in it with all these new tools, I almost like PM more than Melee. There's still some flaws they need to fix, like the grapple bug.

Zair is as MVP said underutilized. I'm really going to use it more. It can even be used as an OoS-option.
I think homing ice missiles are wonderful when edge guarding. I'm a fan of homing missiles in Melee versus spacies, as it forces them to use Phantasm/Illusion instead of upB. I think ice missiles works even better in PM. I don't know yet as I don't have enough PM-experience.
I've seen people use ice Usmash and Fair after Dthrow on floatier characters. If this is a real combo, it's a HUGE buff as Samus tend to have problems finishing the likes of Peach. Taunt cancelling makes ice viable too. Fire is generally better otherwise.
Our grab is faster (but shorter). This makes grabs kinda an option, especially with follow ups mentioned above.

Note that I'm a Melee-player (but may change if PM becomes more popular in my area), so I have much more knowledge in the Melee match ups.

Spacies:
Missiles to approach, but beware of their shine. If we read their shine, we can jump against them and punish the lag they get when reflecting. Can we crawlattack under a reflected missile?
When we're in their face, stay in their face, but not close enough to get hit my grab or Usmash/shine OoS. We can pressure them with jabs and Ftilts (are they faster in PM?) to the end of the stage, where we want them.
Fsmash, Utilt and Ftilt (maybe ice Dtilt?) are great for edge guarding if they are in level with the stage or above. Use homing missiles to disrupt their upB charge. If they are below stage level, they need to use upB. If they are recovering close to the stage we can just run out and get them with a Dair or Nair (or ice Fair). If they recover a bit further away we can grab the ledge and ledge hop Nair/Dair/Bair. Edgehog if they aim for the ledge or go too short.
If they are pressuring our shield with aerials to shine, we can simply upB out of it. We've got a few frames of invincibility (at least in Melee), so this is always possible.
Crouch cancel is wonderful against spacies. They often hold down when pressuring (to shine or FF) so we often catch them with bad DI. Our Dsmash sends them far horizontally if they DI down. Perfect setup for edge guards!
If they carelessly jumps towards us, we can wave dash back and counter attack.
I don't know if PM is the same as Melee in this area, but I'll write it any ways. When we hit the ledge with the grapple, but our opponent already has control of the ledge, we can't just simple drag our selves up or they'll easily kill us with shines or aerials. In Melee we can wall jump immediately after we've dragged ourselves to the stage. If this is possible in PM, use it. We're invincible for a few frames after our wall jump, so they won't hit us. To avoid going too far from the stage, we need to stop our momentum. I usually drop a bomb directly after the wall jump.

I might write more guides in the future. Please ask me questions or tell me how I can improve this guide. I've surely missed a couple of things.
 

LydianAlchemist

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Joined
Jun 20, 2010
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Many people have been talking about MU vs characters like mario, wolf, etc that quote "outcamp" samus through the spamming of their projectiles. And rushing MU like falcon and shiek, who give you no time to spam missiles to gain some distance between you two. I'd like to shed some light on these MU's...

i personally believe that samus is the one that outcamps (wins the mid-long range game) them! A extremely underutilized tool samus has vs these characters is the godly zair.

you can virtually instantly execute and cancel a medium to full length zair by jumping with x or y then immediately pushing L or R followed by another immediate A input. this allows for rapid Zair pressure. Also, being very low to the ground when executing, this work against smaller characters like Pikachu too

another thing people should know about her Zair is when it hits a projectile (fireballs, lazers, etc) if you execute a shortened zair, when it hits it will clank the projectile and actually instantly extend to the full length of the zair hitting the spammer behind it. I can easily out-range my friends mario causing him to approach and not me. Zair is also godly for edge guarding characters whose recovers come above the stage, setting them up for a killer Dair.
I've been doing this so much! I LOVE IT my friends HATE IT

I want to learn platform canceling next

... Can we crawlattack under a reflected missile?....
yes you can crawl under reflected super missiles
 

WizKid911

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
207
Some of this would oork on fox, but the falcos I play never stop laser hopping so pretty much all I can do is crawl under and wait for them to jump in. Shielding is a bad option because they will just hop torwards you and demolish your shield or grab. And I am not very good at power shielding so I cant always time that. If I time my up b quick enough it should connect but at low percentages they are gonna hit the ground before I do leaving me open in the air. Spacies are extremely easy to cat catch out of their techs with the charged shot though, and it is hard for them to pillar combo along with others because samus is so floaty. I havent had much practice with samus and wolf but he also seems to be able to pressure the heck out of your shield too. And he is much faster than falco
 

JerkPhil

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Power shielding is a REALLY good tool against Falco. Even if we don't power shield, we can get closer in range by wave dashing out of shield towards them. I suppose crawl could work too. I haven't tried it, and I haven't implemented crawl in my game yet.
An important note about both Falco's and Fox's lasers is that they doesn't do much damage. In my opinion, it's worth 2% to get much closer to them.
 

WizKid911

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Im not worried about fox's lasers. Its falco's that stun you and stop almost anything I do
 

WizKid911

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No I haven't. Just recently added that to my arsenal so I haven't tried it on everyone yet
 

WizKid911

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You see I would never just run in. They can attack pretty much as the laser comes out of the gun. As soon as I get close its, SH laser, dair, reflecter. Nothing samus does is faster than the reflecter, causing me to wait out the barrage of attacks and hope my attack comes out faster after they reflect. Usually a dtilt or up b is the quickest response for that
 

JerkPhil

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As I wrote earlier, the power shield is very useful vs Falco. Learn it, and never worry about lasers again.
If we shield their Dair, we're alright. It's a real tight window for them, and the whole situation depends on the spacing (i.e the length of our wave dash forwards). They win they win the situation if we cannot get our shield up, unless they go for a grab (which really isn't that useful for Falco vs Samus) to counter our shield. Grab is countered by sidestep, which can be buffered by holding the C-stick down while shielding.
Our upB beats their downB head to head as far as I know.
 

Serris

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Samus against Game & Watch is definitely in his favor, primarily because he has a ludicrous amount of priority on all of his disjointed hitboxes. She loses, clanks, or trades on every hit. Z-air is, of course, her saving grace. It goes through everything, but Game & Watch doesn't have much trouble getting through her zoning otherwise. I'd rate it at 4-6. It's not unwinnable, but a good player is going to make you work for your win.

EDIT: Am I the only one that thinks ice beam up-smash losing to his down-air during active frames seems a bit stupid?
 

WizKid911

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Should be evenly matched. I mean she's got the blade and he has the key blade. Must have some to do with timing also
 

DMG

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DMG#931
What you people need to implement is the crawling. It's extremely good for Samus and improves her "counter" gameplay by a ton. You can basically do anything out of a crawl, while moving around with it, and maintain a very small hitbox. It's yet to be fully abused, but I think it makes some of her MU's much more bearable.
 

Serris

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I love the Boost Ball because it's very tricky for your opponent to read, but the fact that it can't be used in both directions really throws me off.
 

WizKid911

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I think that would be unfair if you could use it both ways. You know how much crap you could get out of lol. Maybe if you simply wave dash turn around and then boost. Although that would not go as smooth as I would want. It takes time to actually get into the ball
 

DMG

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DMG#931
The main benefit to not crawl attacking backwards, is that it lets you do Dtilt while backing up seamlessly. That to me is worth more than being able to do it backwards
 

bubbaking

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I think that move has the same start-up, regardless of whether she's in morph ball form or not. For me, the best aspect of the morph ball is that the crawl attack crosses up shields and has low lag, so it gives her a lot of mix-up potential, especially when under cover of missiles.
 

DMG

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I think the morph ball attack is overrated. I would rather do Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash out of the crawl if I'm at a range that the morph ball would hit and cross through them.
 

Serris

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I think the morph ball attack is overrated. I would rather do Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash out of the crawl if I'm at a range that the morph ball would hit and cross through them.

I disagree. It's hard to read, and it's great for ducking under projectiles.
 

DMG

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You already duck under projectiles in crawl. Idk it sounds very situational. I prefer retaining all my options in crawl, until I am forced to pick something else. The crawl attack is not my go-to idea for most scenarios, since the amount of stuff she can cover otherwise seems good enough. I don't use it very often, and try actively not to use it and find a better alternative, before tossing it out. Just the way I view the move I guess.
 

bubbaking

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Yeah, but you get a spurt of fast movement, and it's not even that laggy. For me, the cross-up ability is imperative to its use.

Two of Samus' worst MUs are Sheik and Marth, and that's largely because of those chars' phenomenal grab games being pitted against Samus' defensive game. Sheik is especially bad, because on top of being able to out-camp Samus, all she really needs to do is shield everything, shieldgrab what she can, WD OoS for anything she can't shieldgrab, and avoid being grabbed herself. One important way for Samus to combat this is to somehow position herself behind Sheik so she may pressure the back of her shield, thus becoming impossible to be shieldgrabbed and hard to even be hit OoS at all. However, this position is hard to attain. Just trying to slip behind Sheik can often end up getting one grabbed. The crawl attack gives Samus a way to quickly slip behind her opponents while being tough to punish. On hit, the crawl attack combos into dash attack, smashes, and aerials at mid-high %'s.

One of Samus' inherently big problems is her weakness against shields. She can pressure them fairly well with jabs and pokes, but at the end of the day, if you just shield everything and react to the grab mix-up, you're golden against her. Now grab is a bit faster, so that's good, but the weakness is still there. I can pop off a missile and then throw out a tilt, but if it's all shielded, all I got was a decent position which won't necessarily land me a hit. Not only that, the opponent can WD OoS to get closer and 'defensively pressure' me back, or in some cases, I could just end up shieldgrabbed. To remedy this, sometimes, you need to go for the read and throw out a grab right behind the missile. This only works so many times, however, and people experienced in the MU will know it's coming (or at least know about the possibility of the mix-up) before it even comes out once. They could do something like roll behind me, and if I actually went for the grab (you have to do it preemptively or it will never work), I'm going to eat a hefty punish. One solution to all of this, especially against Sheik or Marth, is to throw out a missile and then crawl attack under cover of the missile. The missile and the crawl attack can both combo into things, but if they are blocked at the end of the day, then Samus is still safe and can now pressure the opponent from behind. It's a win-win situation, IMO.

I think the morph ball attack is overrated. I would rather do Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash out of the crawl if I'm at a range that the morph ball would hit and cross through them.
At that range, dtilt can easily be punished (it's -25 on shield), dsmash can easily be punished (it's about -20 on shield if you hit with the back of the move), and ftilt can easily be punished (it's -18 on shield). They can all be shieldgrabbed or worse. Meanwhile, the crawl attack will be nigh non-punishable because Samus will be behind the opponent with low lag.
 

WizKid911

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With the experience that I have with her crawl attack I think it still has a little bit of a reaction time out of it, besides the dtilt. But it is as bubbaking said, a good way to get behind your opponent. It has soo much potential
 

JerkPhil

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How is the bomb pressure in PM? I still haven't got the game, so I can't test it.
 

MonkUnit

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Bombs do not explode on shield like Melee's bombs, so it doesn't have as much pressure. However, at certain positions/angles, the bomb will sometimes explode on shield. It's kind of weird but it allows some of the bomb pressure tools to be used.
 

DMG

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Well wait, isn't that sort of an improvement though? If you bomb their shield and it doesn't explode immediately on shield, wouldn't it sort of lock them in shield? That might be pretty useful
 

bubbaking

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Yeah, DMG, if the bomb doesn't explode, we can't wavebomb to safely land next to someone on a plat. That's a trick that many good Sami, especially DarrelD, use often. Also, the explosion actually eats shields, so the explosion lets us rapidly drop bombs on a shield to wear it down and then aim for a (safe) poke. The bounce off doesn't really lock anyone in.
 

DMG

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It bounces off shields? Then that's bad. I haven't been fooling around with bombing shields so I have no idea how it works in PM. Just the idea of a bomb that doesn't interact with shields, but would blow up the instant they drop it, sounds cool
 
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