Sakurai's thoughts on "balance"

[Gidy]

Yeah, and NOTHING the competitive crowd says is stupid either, right? Not to mention the casual crowd complains less.. And besides, Sakurai actually threw you a bone this time around. For Glory, speeding up the gameplay, Omega stages. All of this was for yall. He gives you lobster and 2 hours later you ask for steak.

I'm not asking for a steak, I'm telling my server there's something wrong with my order.

 

[MOI-ARI]

@ MarioMeteor


oh god. I do! Why wasn't I warned?!

 

[MarioMeteor]

I'm not asking for a steak, I'm telling my server there's something wrong with my order.

Then you ordered wrong.

@ MarioMeteor


oh god. I do! Why wasn't I warned?!

Do you have Vivian as your profile pic? And I don't know why you weren't warned, the words been out for quite some time.

 

[Gidy]

Then you ordered wrong.

Do you have Vivian as your profile pic? And I don't know why you weren't warned, the words been out for quite some time.

I'm pretty sure I didn't order game breaking jab lock combo's or jab lock combos in general . I also didn't order broken characters either. Also pretty sure Chef Sakurai didn't intend for these to happen either, but he refuses to fix his customers' order.

 

[Xzsmmc]

I'm pretty sure I didn't order game breaking jab lock combo's or jab lock combos in general . I also didn't order broken characters either. Also pretty sure Chef Sakurai didn't intend for these to happen either, but he refuses to fix his customers' order.

Also FD mode. Why not Battlefield? FD isn't as balanced as Sakurai thinks.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Then you ordered wrong.

Do you have Vivian as your profile pic? And I don't know why you weren't warned, the words been out for quite some time.

Indeed i do! Glad someone remembers her.^^

Well I Havnt been out lately. Its safe under this rock.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He is a stubborn fool stuck in his ways.

A living testament to Nintendos game design philosophy and how they are out of touch with a chunk of their consumer base.

Imbeciles.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Also FD mode. Why not Battlefield? FD isn't as balanced as Sakurai thinks.

My point exactly. He gives you blue, you want green.

I'm pretty sure I didn't order game breaking jab lock combo's or jab lock combos in general . I also didn't order broken characters either. Also pretty sure Chef Sakurai didn't intend for these to happen either, but he refuses to fix his customers' order.

First of all, Diddy is not broken. The Hoo Ha is, but the character itself can be dealt with. Assuming he doesn't Hoo Ha you to death. I will agree that the Hoo Ha is ****ing ridiculous, but the thing with your order is, you yourself don't know what's wrong with it. You don't know what you want. You order soup, Chef Sakurai gives you soup, then you throw it away because it's not the chicken. If I were Sakurai, I'd say **** them, and cater to the people who ordered soup and ate soup. Which is exactly what he's doing.

Indeed i do! Glad someone remembers her.^^

Well I Havnt been out lately. Its safe under this rock.

Dammit. I saw the joke coming and still laughed. Hate it when that happens. How could I not remember Vivian? She and Bobbery were the best members in the game. ****ing Shadow Queen...

 

[LZCXR]

I understand the clones part, with the less development part since they were originally alternate costumes and all, but balance makes a competitive game thrive of character variety, we aren't asking for homogeneity of character archetypes, we're asking so that characters can actually stand a chance against each other.

Though I agree that making Smash the next virtua fighter in terms of complexity would be offputting to the casual market but we aren't asking for THAT much level of complexity (I think).

I seriously can't understand Sakurai sometimes, what's so inherently wrong about being in touch with the competitive comunity? (aside from the bickering here and there) games like this tend to THRIVE in the competitive scene, and I don't think that it's that hard to hear the competitive while still being accesible to the casual market (I mean, we have items and some wacky stages), also, don't games tend to sell better when you get involved a lot in marketing? (kind of unrelated), though yeah, kind of sad that he sees this as some sort of glorified party game (if the interview about Smash Tour is accurate) since it feel like he's trying to say "This is the way "I" feel everyone should play it" (though let's be real, I think I'm being a bit too harsh)

My point exactly. He gives you blue, you want green.

First of all, Diddy is not broken. The Hoo Ha is, but the character itself can be dealt with. Assuming he doesn't Hoo Ha you to death. I will agree that the Hoo Ha is ****ing ridiculous, but the thing with your order is, you yourself don't know what's wrong with it. You don't know what you want. You order soup, Chef Sakurai gives you soup, then you throw it away because it's not the chicken. If I were Sakurai, I'd say **** them, and cater to the people who ordered soup and ate soup. Which is exactly what he's doing.

(Talking about the stages not Diddy that's another can of worms I'm not willing to get into) But here is the fact that you can easily find the list of tournament stage viability so you can give yourself a guideline on what the competitive scene want in a stage instead of stamping FD in every stage in the Omega form, this is more akin giving something that, while acceptable, it's not actually what someone ordered.

Though yeah the very fact that Sakurai ACTUALLY TRIED TO DO SOMETHING TO PLEASE A LITTLE BIT THE COMPETITIVE SCENE is quite a feat in itself and a step in the right direction, I give you that.

 

[Schnee117]

And my like for Sakurai continues to dwindle as my want for a new director that's with the times increases.

 

[Beach]

I completely understand not wanting to lose the casual audience, but the younger crowd who just throw out smashes left and right and have never heard of a tilt, will not care one bit if something like the Hoo-Ha got changed. Let's say wave dashing and b-cancels (Falco lasers) were in, if I went into For Glory and absolutely bodied someone with Falco using said tech, one of two things would happen: 1.The player thinks "Woah that was really cool and I haven't seen that before. I'm going to go see what that was and how I could do it." 2.Bash Falco and say he is overpowered and he gets banned in his friends group and every time he plays against a Falco he'll quit or something like that. He wouldn't just quit because of the one in a million players who had skill in the way of tech.

Or we could just flood online with Diddy and D-throws until it gets noticed, just a thought.

 

[Gidy]

My point exactly. He gives you blue, you want green.

First of all, Diddy is not broken. The Hoo Ha is, but the character itself can be dealt with. Assuming he doesn't Hoo Ha you to death. I will agree that the Hoo Ha is ****ing ridiculous, but the thing with your order is, you yourself don't know what's wrong with it. You don't know what you want. You order soup, Chef Sakurai gives you soup, then you throw it away because it's not the chicken. If I were Sakurai, I'd say **** them, and cater to the people who ordered soup and ate soup. Which is exactly what he's doing.

Dammit. I saw the joke coming and still laughed. Hate it when that happens. How could I not remember Vivian? She and Bobbery were the best members in the game. ****ing Shadow Queen...

It's not that I don't like the soup, it's that there are some problems that stick out like a thorn. Imo diddy is broke. His Uair is like a Smash in the air and Hoohah complements it. Just some things we'd like him to change for every customers assured satisfaction.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I understand the clones part, with the less development part since they were originally alternate costumes and all, but balance makes a competitive game thrive of character variety, we aren't asking for homogeneity of character archetypes, we're asking so that characters can actually stand a chance against each other.

Though I agree that making Smash the next virtua fighter in terms of complexity would be offputting to the casual market but we aren't asking for THAT much level of complexity (I think).

I seriously can't understand Sakurai sometimes, what's so inherently wrong about being in touch with the competitive comunity? (aside from the bickering here and there) games like this tend to THRIVE in the competitive scene, and I don't think that it's that hard to hear the competitive while still being accesible to the casual market (I mean, we have items and some wacky stages), also, don't games tend to sell better when you get involved a lot in marketing? (kind of unrelated), though yeah, kind of sad that he sees this as some sort of glorified party game (if the interview about Smash Tour is accurate) since it feel like he's trying to say "This is the way "I" feel everyone should play it" (though let's be real, I think I'm being a bit too harsh)



(Talking about the stages not Diddy that's another can of worms I'm not willing to get into) But here is the fact that you can easily find the list of tournament stage viability so you can give yourself a guideline on what the competitive scene want in a stage instead of stamping FD in every stage in the Omega form, this is more akin giving something that, while acceptable, it's not actually what someone ordered.

Though yeah the very fact that Sakurai ACTUALLY TRIED TO DO SOMETHING TO PLEASE A LITTLE BIT THE COMPETITIVE SCENE is quite a feat in itself and a step in the right direction, I give you that.

That's all I want to get across.

It's not that I don't like the soup, it's that there are some problems that stick out like a thorn. Imo diddy is broke. His Uair is like a Smash in the air and Hoohah complements it. Just some things we'd like him to change for every customers assured satisfaction.

Well maybe YOU'RE well-mannered and sensible enough to realize that you ordered soup and got soup, but you can't speak for the entire community, which pretty much a cluster**** of people spitting on Chef's food and criticizing it. After a while, naturally he's gonna get tired of it and advertise towards a new (casual) audience. I guarenteed you if the Community complained at least half as much as it did, Sakurai might actually listen to them. Sakurai even corrected what the competitives thought was wrong with Brawl and threw them a bone, yet they're still not satisfied.

 

[PCHU]

Sakurai even corrected what the competitives thought was wrong with Brawl and threw them a bone, yet they're still not satisfied.

But he did so selectively; there are a few characters that are much faster in both mobility and attack speed and thus are much more capable than their Brawl counterparts, but he didn't give this change to everyone, not to mention the game's physics all-in-all are a lot different and there are many contributing factors to why exactly the fans aren't pleased.
Saying that he took what was wrong and fixed it is true to an extent because he did alter some aspects in an attempt to please competitive players, but he also made changes that nobody asked for and not many people are really satisfied with.

I just want everyone to feel like a solid character.
I don't care about how simple the game is, how forgiving it is, or whatever, I just want to choose whoever I want to choose and know that if I devote my time to this character, I can get good results because they've been given tools to help make their weaknesses not as much of an issue (PM Ganondorf, DK, Charizard, Ike).

Personally, I'd be fine with Sakurai if he kept Brawl's physics and just buffed the characters that needed it.
I really don't mind Brawl's engine and enjoy wars of spacing as well as the potential for more innovative attack strings.
But it's not a case of something not being like Melee or not being like Brawl, it's a case of this game not being what I was told they were giving me.
It doesn't matter if you rebuilt a character from the ground up if they still can't do what they need to do to compete well at a higher level; giving reasonable buffs to those who need it can pretty much only make people happy.

I'm not saying this will end all complaints because people will always complain, but it would make the game a lot more interesting without tweaking major aspects of the game engine/mechanics.

 

[salaboB]

It seems like an easy problem to solve: Make the characters balanced against each other, then make items out of control randomness.

Casual players will just leave items on, serious players turn them off, and everyone has fun. (It would make serious play with items harder, but either careful restricting or just playing without them would remain as options)

 

[PCHU]

It seems like an easy problem to solve: Make the characters balanced against each other, then make items out of control randomness.

Casual players will just leave items on, serious players turn them off, and everyone has fun. (It would make serious play with items harder, but either careful restricting or just playing without them would remain as options)

I dunno; the items are already a lot crazier than Brawl, at least in KO potential.
I mean, I've played a few matches with items on, and they're definitely new and interesting, but having played with a lot of items in the past and learning to make the most of them, I feel like the newer items do most of the work for me, and I hate it.
Even my more casual friends don't really like the new items/stages, and these are people who are pretty accepting over pretty much whatever they play.

 

[WorstSSBPlayerInTheWorld]

why would casuals care about balance??

 

[Lil Puddin]

I am also in the same boat with Sakarai to some extent. The playing field will never be equal. But what can be equal is the risk and reward for each move.

EX: Zelda's Farore's Wind has incredible knock back. However, if she whiffs the attack she has a second of delay that leaves her open to be punished and/or KO'd. In other words, she risks her own safety to get a KO. It's fair.

Diddy Kong grabs, pushes down, then performs 1-4 Uairs. This combo is incredibly easy to perform and is almost a true combo. It can kill relatively early, the hitbox is quite large, his hurtbox contorts to keep him safe, and it has virtually no end delay. This is unfair.

So if Sakarai thought about it in terms like this, it would be relatively simple to balance the game. Slightly nerf this, slightly buff that. Then we get a more wholesome and fun game.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

Sakurai:

Spoiler: bap

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well I think I'll just go work on D3's jab infinite and ask my friends and family how much "fun" they're having.

 

[Tino]

I don't see what the problem is with "balance" in here.

 

[Gidy]

That's all I want to get across.

Well maybe YOU'RE well-mannered and sensible enough to realize that you ordered soup and got soup, but you can't speak for the entire community, which pretty much a cluster**** of people spitting on Chef's food and criticizing it. After a while, naturally he's gonna get tired of it and advertise towards a new (casual) audience. I guarenteed you if the Community complained at least half as much as it did, Sakurai might actually listen to them. Sakurai even corrected what the competitives thought was wrong with Brawl and threw them a bone, yet they're still not satisfied.

Literally everyone hates getting Hoo-Hah'd. All I want, idk about the rest of the community, is to lower the damage and knock back on his uair and make Dthrow Uair escapeable. Sakurai doesn't need to go and balance mid tiers, just fix BROKEN characters.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Literally everyone hates getting Hoo-Hah'd. All I want, idk about the rest of the community, is to lower the damage and knock back on his uair and make Dthrow Uair escapeable. Sakurai doesn't need to go and balance mid tiers, just fix BROKEN characters.

I never said anything about people liking getting Hoo Ha'd.

 

[GhostUrsa]

He is a stubborn fool stuck in his ways.

A living testament to Nintendos game design philosophy and how they are out of touch with a chunk of their consumer base.

Imbeciles.

Considering the casual players out number us by over 10:1 in purchases, this is less about being out of touch and more about having a hard time finding the middle ground. He's trying to please 2 very different crowds, with very different needs and is going to have issues getting everything right. We maybe what keeps the series interesting years after a release, but we are not what makes enough money to keep a series going. They need us devoted players so the casually interested think the series is cool enough to buy another entry, but it's the casual player's money that lets us keep playing new entries.

The man is stubborn and in the past has had clear image against pure competitive play, we all can agree on that. There is evidence stating this during all the interviews about Brawl. What also can be theorized is that he's now trying to meet halfway between both audiences, which there is enough evidence in all the interviews about Smash 4 to guess this. Constructive feedback is far more likely to help address stuff than calling for the man's head.

A fool he is not, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing the benefits of small changes to a large grand design he made. Most people would have walked away from the product, it wouldn't be getting rave reviews and we'd all by back to the Brawl vs Melee debate. Don't miss the forest for the tress, bud.

 

[Gidy]

I never said anything about people liking getting Hoo Ha'd.

I never said you did

 

[Quillion]

He is a stubborn fool stuck in his ways.

A living testament to Nintendos game design philosophy and how they are out of touch with a chunk of their consumer base.

Imbeciles.

Interesting you say that, as even Nintendo's own (former) employee has taken to task of saying that.

Anyway… I do think there are ways to increase the quality of the game on BOTH sides. There's my idea of splitting the Melee Air Dodge into two separate functions.

 

[CrossoverMan]

I believe that super-balanced games and completely unbalanced games have their place. Why else do you think games like Marvel VS Capcom 2 are so popular? In games like that, you can actually still show how skilled you are at the game by playing as terrible characters like Roll and Servbot and beating overpowered characters like Sentinel and Storm. It's not much different to beating a character with an equally powerful character in Street Fighter or something.

After saying all this though, I still don't really give a damn about balancing and all that. Scrolling through tier lists on SmashWiki can be enjoyable, but i could care more about such things.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Interesting you say that, as even Nintendo's own (former) employee has taken to task of saying that.

Anyway… I do think there are ways to increase the quality of the game on BOTH sides. There's my idea of splitting the Melee Air Dodge into two separate functions.

I've read Dan's interview, and it seems to imply to be more about the higher management then project managers. Coming from an IT field, there is a big different in the power to make decisions between who Iwata answers to, and what Sakurai is able to do in the game. Dan even mentions how the might Iwata, the man it appears everyone blames for every bad decision at Nintendo, has to answer to this system. Such a management design is a blessing and a curse, since it's harder for bad ideas to go through but also hard for good ones.

Without more info, we'll never know how much of specific decisions are restricted at what levels of the process. In past interviews, Sakurai has mentioned that if he could have the resources, he'd continue to balance the game. That and he want many types of player to play smash, not just the competitive players. The Nintendo Dream interview comes to mind. Taking most of the interviews that Sakurai has done about Smash 4 and the Dan interview into account, the only theory I can think of for the games current state is that he want to have a game for everyone but can't for some reason. There aren't any other way to see it without some more evidence.

And for the record, I do like the Dash button idea. Heck, you might even be able to do it with our current control scheme. Think like using a smash attack, but you're hitting the block button instead of the attack button.

 

[Quillion]

And for the record, I do like the Dash button idea. Heck, you might even be able to do it with our current control scheme. Think like using a smash attack, but you're hitting the block button instead of the attack button.

Um... that's just rolling right now.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Um... that's just rolling right now.

Was thinking more with the air dodge additions, but rolling performs like doing a tilt with the block button. Not quite the same thing since the options available during/after a roll aren't the same as what was purposed in the other thread. Brainstorming how it would work isn't the purpose of this thread, so I'll not go further on the idea here. (and not just because I've had too much coffee, which makes typing harder with all the jittering.) I'll probably bring it up in the other one.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Considering the casual players out number us by over 10:1 in purchases, this is less about being out of touch and more about having a hard time finding the middle ground. He's trying to please 2 very different crowds, with very different needs and is going to have issues getting everything right. We maybe what keeps the series interesting years after a release, but we are not what makes enough money to keep a series going. They need us devoted players so the casually interested think the series is cool enough to buy another entry, but it's the casual player's money that lets us keep playing new entries.

The man is stubborn and in the past has had clear image against pure competitive play, we all can agree on that. There is evidence stating this during all the interviews about Brawl. What also can be theorized is that he's now trying to meet halfway between both audiences, which there is enough evidence in all the interviews about Smash 4 to guess this. Constructive feedback is far more likely to help address stuff than calling for the man's head.

A fool he is not, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing the benefits of small changes to a large grand design he made. Most people would have walked away from the product, it wouldn't be getting rave reviews and we'd all by back to the Brawl vs Melee debate. Don't miss the forest for the tress, bud.

He doesn't give a damn.

He is a businessman in the business of making money and he is doing well for himself. He does not care about you or me or the fans. He has made that clear time and time again.

He cares about his image and Nintendos image.

That's it.

And I refuse to give him credit for Smash 4's balance changes. I bet anything that was Bandai Namco's influence ( the same people that made Tekken, Soul Caliber and other lesser known gems like Gundam Wing Endless Waltz)

 

[TTTTTsd]

He doesn't give a damn.

He is a businessman in the business of making money and he is doing well for himself. He does not care about you or me or the fans. He has made that clear time and time again.

He cares about his image and Nintendos image.

That's it.

And I refuse to give him credit for Smash 4's balance changes. I bet anything that was Bandai Namco's influence ( the same people that made Tekken, Soul Caliber and other lesser known gems like Gundam Wing Endless Waltz)

While I understand your feelings on Sakurai, I think that reflects more on Smash than on Nintendo's general IPs as you mentioned in your original post. The new Mario/DK/Zelda games have all been REALLY good, and in general it seems to be a slew of good things from their core series that were neglected or changed in poor ways (Mario 3D World was amazing, Tropical Freeze, etc.) It's more of a Smash thing, IMO.

However I agree with your sentiments on Smash 4 in terms of where the priority is, and I am damn well sure this game's structure is the way it is because Namco is an awesome company and we should all buy Tekken and play it. Tekken is a REALLY rewarding game on a casual and competitive level to boot.

Also Gundam Wing Endless Duel (Waltz was the name of the OVA/Anime I believe) was an amazing game that redefined movement in fighters but it was broken as hell. Everyone had like, an infinite or an 100% combo, and Deathscythe was just STUPID in that game lol. It's hella fun though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I never said you did

That's sure what it sounded like.

 

[Alhobbies440]

Whenever Sakurai is interviewed about the competitive aspects of a game or game balance it seems like he always forgets Melee exists. I enjoy playing Melee at a casual level more than the later two entries(although 64 might be my favorite) and it happens to be regarded as the best smash game for competitive play. Why not just improve upon Melee's engine by adding more balance to the gameplay and roster than spend so much effort trying to balance something like free for all? I'm not an expert but that seems like backwards game design to me.

 

[Gidy]

That's sure what it sounded like.

I was just stating the obvious again

 

[Quillion]

Whenever Sakurai is interviewed about the competitive aspects of a game or game balance it seems like he always forgets Melee exists. I enjoy playing Melee at a casual level more than the later two entries(although 64 might be my favorite) and it happens to be regarded as the best smash game for competitive play. Why not just improve upon Melee's engine by adding more balance to the gameplay and roster than spend so much effort trying to balance something like free for all? I'm not an expert but that seems like backwards game design to me.

AND... take the advanced stuff of Melee and simplify it. Like adding a non-comittal dash button to replace Melee's airdodge and wavedash. That's more forward game design than anything PM has done.

 

[Big-Cat]

What Sakurai means by balance being boring is you can only have true balance if there is only one character on the roster. He's talking in the extreme sense of the word. For diversity's sake, each character needs different strengths and weaknesses.

Sakurai said he dismisses the input of CERTAIN hardcore players. Not all. He's right on this because those players may be wrong on what needs to be changed.

 

[16bit]

Why doesn't Sakurai just make bad characters stronger and keep top tiers like Diddy the same? It balances out the game, no character gets screwed over, and casual still have a character they like.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's never that simple.

 

[16bit]

It's never that simple.

True, but it's better then no patches at all.