Sakurai's thoughts on "balance"

[Doruge]

Literally everyone hates getting Hoo-Hah'd. All I want, idk about the rest of the community, is to lower the damage and knock back on his uair and make Dthrow Uair escapeable. Sakurai doesn't need to go and balance mid tiers, just fix BROKEN characters.

The combo does a whopping 15% and is DI-able at kill percents. Please explain how this is "broken"

 

[Emblem Lord]

While I understand your feelings on Sakurai, I think that reflects more on Smash than on Nintendo's general IPs as you mentioned in your original post. The new Mario/DK/Zelda games have all been REALLY good, and in general it seems to be a slew of good things from their core series that were neglected or changed in poor ways (Mario 3D World was amazing, Tropical Freeze, etc.) It's more of a Smash thing, IMO.

However I agree with your sentiments on Smash 4 in terms of where the priority is, and I am damn well sure this game's structure is the way it is because Namco is an awesome company and we should all buy Tekken and play it. Tekken is a REALLY rewarding game on a casual and competitive level to boot.

Also Gundam Wing Endless Duel (Waltz was the name of the OVA/Anime I believe) was an amazing game that redefined movement in fighters but it was broken as hell. Everyone had like, an infinite or an 100% combo, and Deathscythe was just STUPID in that game lol. It's hella fun though.

Ok, so if EVERYONE has a 100% combo and EVERYONE is capable of laying down some serious pain then...is that not also a form of balance?

I personally perfer a game full of gods (X-men vs SF, Soul Calibur 1, SFxT) then a game full of pitiful weaklings (SF4 and all it's updates)

 

[Gidy]

The combo does a whopping 15% and is DI-able at kill percents. Please explain how this is "broken"

It can lead in to another Up Air and it you can still get a Fair. No body off the top of my head has a better kill combo setup then Diddy.

 

[Roko Jono]

AND... take the advanced stuff of Melee and simplify it. Like adding a non-comittal dash button to replace Melee's airdodge and wavedash. That's more forward game design than anything PM has done.

I see you posting a lot about making melee techniques easier. While techniques should be easier to do, I have to be honest with you my friend, wavedashing is as simple as it gets. Think of the simplicity of smash. Its like... Attack, special, jump, shield, (grab but its really 2 buttons together). Do you really want to add a *button that will make you do all this different stuff if holded* button/stick?

Other wavedashes:
Mahvel: FF (or 2 atk buttons), D -> repeat
Tekken: FF,DD -> repeat somewhat fast
DOA: D,DB -> repeat VERY fast

WD is sort of perfectly set up. The last input you must do is a trigger button, that leaves your thumbs ready for anything. I like PP in this game though. How would I make it easier? Give us more than 1 frame (last time I saw a post about it, it was 1 frame) to flick.

I really don't trust Sakurai... nothing against him, I just don't trust him... right now at least... I know he said Smash was taking over his life and stressing him out in development, but I have to be honest with myself guys... can someone tell me what was very hard about his job? Was he helping with the coding? Was he bug testing? Was he the one coming with ideas about what should be in or out or was he just a guy who just thumbs up/downed ideas? What is someone in his position doing 'working' for 20 hours a day during dev? I haven't read any article explaining what was so stressful about the development of the game so if someone knows I would like to know. (I'm not pissed at the guy I just can't see what's so stressful and I'd love to know what it was)

 

[salaboB]

I dunno; the items are already a lot crazier than Brawl, at least in KO potential.
I mean, I've played a few matches with items on, and they're definitely new and interesting, but having played with a lot of items in the past and learning to make the most of them, I feel like the newer items do most of the work for me, and I hate it.
Even my more casual friends don't really like the new items/stages, and these are people who are pretty accepting over pretty much whatever they play.

I agree completely, but Sakurai seems to feel "Random kills with no effort" are how you balance for casuals.

So let him dump that in through items, and let the rest of us get great balance without them.

 

[warriorman222]

Yeah, and NOTHING the competitive crowd says is stupid either, right? Not to mention the casual crowd complains less.. And besides, Sakurai actually threw you a bone this time around. For Glory, speeding up the gameplay, Omega stages. All of this was for yall. He gives you lobster and 2 hours later you ask for steak.

I think there's a difference between asking for steak and disagreeing with the assumption that we want porridge.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think there's a difference between asking for steak and disagreeing with the assumption that we want porridge.

Wait, what?

 

[Quillion]

I see you posting a lot about making melee techniques easier. While techniques should be easier to do, I have to be honest with you my friend, wavedashing is as simple as it gets. Think of the simplicity of smash. Its like... Attack, special, jump, shield, (grab but its really 2 buttons together). Do you really want to add a *button that will make you do all this different stuff if holded* button/stick?

Other wavedashes:
Mahvel: FF (or 2 atk buttons), D -> repeat
Tekken: FF,DD -> repeat somewhat fast
DOA: D,DB -> repeat VERY fast

WD is sort of perfectly set up. The last input you must do is a trigger button, that leaves your thumbs ready for anything. I like PP in this game though. How would I make it easier? Give us more than 1 frame (last time I saw a post about it, it was 1 frame) to flick.

Yes. Wavedashing is simple. I get that. It's one of the simplest things to do when getting into competitive Melee and PM, and actually practicing it, I agree that it's simple.

BUT STILL... if other fighting games like "Mahvel" have nearly non-comittal dashing actions that don't break the game, essentially functionally equivalent to Melee's wavedashing (and other fighting games have their own types of wavedashing on top of THAT), I don't see why Smash can't either.

I really don't trust Sakurai... nothing against him, I just don't trust him... right now at least... I know he said Smash was taking over his life and stressing him out in development, but I have to be honest with myself guys... can someone tell me what was very hard about his job? Was he helping with the coding? Was he bug testing? Was he the one coming with ideas about what should be in or out or was he just a guy who just thumbs up/downed ideas? What is someone in his position doing 'working' for 20 hours a day during dev? I haven't read any article explaining what was so stressful about the development of the game so if someone knows I would like to know. (I'm not pissed at the guy I just can't see what's so stressful and I'd love to know what it was)

Probably everything. He said that it was literally causing him physical injury to himself doing this.

I do think Sakurai should just stop with Smash and move on. Not because I resent any of his "anti-competitive" decisions (though I will always hate Falcondorf), but because he's nearly reached Hideo Kojima levels of resenting his own series (unless Kojima himself is just pretending to troll the fans). I want to see him do something else like Kid Icarus: Uprising.

 

[warriorman222]

Wait, what?

Switch porridge for stale bagel.

So what I mean is that we, or at least I am not asking for more. I simply disagree with his thoughts that we, or I want all characters equal. I want all characters viable, because nobody likes their favorite character to be unusable due to failiure in design (Doc's Run speed, WFT's hitboxes, Ganon's recovery, Olimar's (3DS-only) Pikmin AI).

 

[Quillion]

Switch porridge for stale bagel.

So what I mean is that we, or at least I am not asking for more. I simply disagree with his thoughts that we, or I want all characters equal. I want all characters viable, because nobody likes their favorite character to be unusable due to failiure in design (Doc's Run speed, WFT's hitboxes, Ganon's recovery, Olimar's (3DS-only) Pikmin AI).

Again, I think that Sakurai wants to avoid homogenization with the cast, as it's a well-known fact that the most ideal balance between characters is between those who aren't too different from one another.

 

[warriorman222]

Again, I think that Sakurai wants to avoid homogenization with the cast, as it's a well-known fact that the most ideal balance between characters is between those who aren't too different from one another.

I know. Stage bagel is stale. homogenization is stale. Makes more sense now?

We don't want an equal cast, but rather a fully viable one. I love Little Mac, and it's saddening how he's so helpless in the air, by far the worst, yet only slightly better than MK and Fox on the ground, and how he dies 50% earlier than his weight dictates based on recovery distance alone, more like 150% if you factor edgeguarding.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ok, so if EVERYONE has a 100% combo and EVERYONE is capable of laying down some serious pain then...is that not also a form of balance?

I personally perfer a game full of gods (X-men vs SF, Soul Calibur 1, SFxT) then a game full of pitiful weaklings (SF4 and all it's updates)

It counts yes, a better example of this would be the game "Hokuto No Ken" or Fist of the North Star, where I believe the only unusable chars are Mamiya and Jagi, and everyone else has plausible 100%/ToD combos or ways to convert into RIDICULOUS damage. It's a funny game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Any game where Rei and Toki are top tier can only be a game worthy of the gods themselves.

 

[warriorman222]

Any game where Rei and Toki are top tier can only be a game worthy of the gods themselves.

Roy and Tiki? Where is this hidden DLC?

 

[Random765]

"The amount of stress I feel, its almost to the brink of death"- Sakurai

LOL what.

Try serving a tour in Iraq, where they'll have a real brawl with you, Sakurai.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Switch porridge for stale bagel.

So what I mean is that we, or at least I am not asking for more. I simply disagree with his thoughts that we, or I want all characters equal. I want all characters viable, because nobody likes their favorite character to be unusable due to failiure in design (Doc's Run speed, WFT's hitboxes, Ganon's recovery, Olimar's (3DS-only) Pikmin AI).

Dr. Mario is not unusable because of his run speed. I use him just fine. Don't really care about anybody else on that list, but you've got "failure (which you misspelled) in design" and intended weakness mixed up. If you give Ganondorf a good recovery, then people are going to complain about him being too powerful for such an agile character, then his power gets nerfed, then he's just tall, green Mario. That's why he's reluctant to make changes.

 

[Quillion]

"The amount of stress I feel, its almost to the brink of death"- Sakurai

LOL what.

Try serving a tour in Iraq, where they'll have a real brawl with you, Sakurai.

Fallacy of relative privation.

Just sayin', man.

ANYWAY... should "balance" be measured by the amount of characters who are viable for highest-level play, or the amount of characters who are closer together in effectiveness? Apparently by the second definition, Brawl would be more balanced than Melee.

 

[warriorman222]

Dr. Mario is not unusable because of his run speed. I use him just fine. Don't really care about anybody else on that list, but you've got "failure (which you misspelled) in design" and intended weakness mixed up. If you give Ganondorf a good recovery, then people are going to complain about him being too powerful for such an agile character, then his power gets nerfed, then he's just tall, green Mario. That's why he's reluctant to make changes.

Unusable was an exaggeration. But compared to the rest of the cast, Dr. Mario is not that good. And the runspeed is one of the stupidest decisions ever, only beaten by Bowsercide killing you but not them(Holy crap, just make it go to SD, and make you win in SD. LIKE PREVIOUS GAMES. Don't make us lose for landing a hard read.).

If you give Ganondorf a good recovery, he doesn't get agile. he simply starts dying later than Jigglypuff like every other heavy. Nobody should have a weight that puts them along surviving the longest, with a recovery that makes them die earlier than Jigs against anyone brave enough to go offstage. Tall, green Mario? I don't even know where to begin. He's gonna still be a rock on the ground and in air, he's still gonna be juggled for days. Giving him an actual recovery will simply make him funner and not-depressing to use or fight. I like Ganondorf for out-of-Smash reasons, yet I'd rather play any other character before him. And I feel so bad for anyoneusing Ganon, that I won't even go offstage to kill them, they have enough work on their hands getting back without me hitting them in the face with an uncharged bowling ball, which gimps them at freaking 17%.

Also notice how every other bad recovery gets serious buffs except Ganon's. I know it's an intended weakness, but it shouldn't be that bad, considering other intended weaknesses were taken away (Sonic can kill now, ZSS/Olimar can get back onstage, D3 has an actual projectile, ). He had enough.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Unusable was an exaggeration. But compared to the rest of the cast, Dr. Mario is not that good. And the runspeed is one of the stupidest decisions ever, only beaten by Bowsercide killing you but not them(Holy crap, just make it go to SD, and make you win in SD. LIKE PREVIOUS GAMES. Don't make us lose for landing a hard read.).

If you give Ganondorf a good recovery, he doesn't get agile. he simply starts dying later than Jigglypuff like every other heavy. Nobody should have a weight that puts them along surviving the longest, with a recovery that makes them die earlier than Jigs against anyone brave enough to go offstage. Tall, green Mario? I don't even know where to begin. He's gonna still be a rock on the ground and in air, he's still gonna be juggled for days. Giving him an actual recovery will simply make him funner and not-depressing to use or fight. I like Ganondorf for out-of-Smash reasons, yet I'd rather play any other character before him. And I feel so bad for anyoneusing Ganon, that I won't even go offstage to kill them, they have enough work on their hands getting back without me hitting them in the face with an uncharged bowling ball, which gimps them at freaking 17%.

Also notice how every other bad recovery gets serious buffs except Ganon's. I know it's an intended weakness, but it shouldn't be that bad, considering other intended weaknesses were taken away (Sonic can kill now, ZSS can recover now, D3 has an actual projectile). He had enough.

Dr. Mario is okay if you know how to use him. He can't very well be faster than Mario, then it'll be Melee all over again.
And let me just say you are exaggerating your ass off. I can live till 120% with Dr. Mario, and his recovery is worse than Ganondorf's, so I know for a fact that nobody is dying at 17% unless they just suck. Honestly, if you let yourself get knocked off stage AND bowling balled at 17%, you deserve to get KOed.
And so you know, Dark Dive did get buffed from Brawl. As powerful as Ganondorf is, he can live with a less-than-average recovery. Personally, I prefer Waddle Dee Toss to Gordo Toss, since Waddle Dees can be knocked back at you and they actually kill.

 

[warriorman222]

Dr. Mario is okay if you know how to use him. He can't very well be faster than Mario, then it'll be Melee all over again.
And let me just say you are exaggerating your *** off. I can live till 120% with Dr. Mario, and his recovery is worse than Ganondorf's, so I know for a fact that nobody is dying at 17% unless they just suck. Honestly, if you let yourself get knocked off stage AND bowling balled at 17%, you deserve to get KOed.
And so you know, Dark Dive did get buffed from Brawl. As powerful as Ganondorf is, he can live with a less-than-average recovery. Personally, I prefer Waddle Dee Toss to Gordo Toss, since Waddle Dees can be knocked back at you and they actually kill.

I know Dr. Mario is okay, but again, runspeed is absurd, if you ignore the fact that he's supposed to be slower. I'd figure a Doctor wouldn't be that much slower than Mario the Plumber. It's just weird. it doesn't cause many viability issues, but he's probably worse than Mario. And his recovery is better than Ganon's:

• He can use multiple tools to get onstage.
• It goes almost as high Up-B alone, much higher with both.
• It goes about as long Up-B alone, and isn't even comparable with Down-B added.
• He has far more protection. down-B disrupts, and Up-B can kill you.
• He doesn't die by being too far unless it's a very straight semi-spike. Even then... you need to be hit modestly far into the blastline.
• More airspeed. Actual jumps. doesn't need to Up-B to ledge hop.

I'm the one bowling balling them, like I said before because I main Villager. If they get bowling balled at 17%, it's because they got knocked off stage, something easy to do with Villager. See, my Villager will just lloid you, and if Ganon destroys it or airdodges, the endlag forces him to recover low. If he gets hit, he either recovers low, or is out of range to even get back. If he double jumps it, sling shot or semi-spiking nair.

He's condemmed to a Bowling Ball by being offstage, which I think is unfair to the other player and is why I don't do it. Yes, I'm supposed to try to win, not be fair, but It's just... Yes, yes, he got hit offstage, but it doesn't make him a bad player for being forced to die. Sure Ganon's recovery alone doesn't ruin him, but the fact that i need hard reads(Or Sparta Kick) to kill at 170%, something a lightweight should be suffering, not a fatty is just... You don't deserve to die for getting hit off stage early, it's not like you have a choice but to recover low unless you get rockets and slingshots.

I just want Ganon to have a better recovery. It doens't have to be that bad is what I mean. I'm not saying it ruins him. I'm just saying I want it better.

I prefer Gordo toss. You can hit it back too if it's coming.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

What I'm getting out of this...
"We won't appeal to the vocal minority of the hardcore audience, but we will appeal to the minority of Doctor Mario fans, because we don't want to anger them. Also, I care more about the canonical correctness of Kid Icarus, because Smash is all about being canonically correct."

 

[Lil Puddin]

The combo does a whopping 15% and is DI-able at kill percents. Please explain how this is "broken"

You see, when online, evading midair attacks is slightly harder due to the timing required. So the chances of you doing the dodge too soon or too late is too great. Thus making a HooHa combo very hard to avoid. If you are expecting this combo, then you can usually avoid the grab entirely but Diddy will harass you anyway. To fight Diddy you have to make sure he doesn't have a banana and you have to make sure you always play defensively or else his ridiculous roll->smash will get you. That means even if the combo isn't broken by default, it still is just another tool that makes Diddy too easy to use and too annoying to fight.

I will say this, though... Ironically enough, the bad tier characters such as WFT or even Swords Mii Guy can actually harass Diddy and avoid getting grabbed as long as the banana is avoided. I play WFT. So Online I make Diddys really sad and mad by just being WFT. YOU'RE WOBBLING, TRY TO KEEP YOUR BALANCE NERD!

 

[LimitCrown]

Melee's air dodge is worse for actually dodging attacks than Brawl and Smash 4's air dodge is. You would be put into a helpless animation after you air-dodged and in Melee, you couldn't dodge while you were in a tumbling animation.

 

[Weeman]

He is a stubborn fool stuck in his ways.

A living testament to Nintendos game design philosophy and how they are out of touch with a chunk of their consumer base.

Imbeciles.

The only imbeciles here are the likes of you, who think that programming a game is some easy, not time consuming task, and don't even realize the amount of dedication that goes into things like these. Nobody is forcing you to like the game, but if you're going to have the mentality that everything has to be spoonfed to you, and think every single complaint from every fan can possibly be adressed, then you're just fooling yourself.

 

[Mobes]

Asymmetric dynamic balance isn't a lack of balance.

 

[Doruge]

You see, when online, evading midair attacks is slightly harder due to the timing required. So the chances of you doing the dodge too soon or too late is too great. Thus making a HooHa combo very hard to avoid. If you are expecting this combo, then you can usually avoid the grab entirely but Diddy will harass you anyway. To fight Diddy you have to make sure he doesn't have a banana and you have to make sure you always play defensively or else his ridiculous roll->smash will get you. That means even if the combo isn't broken by default, it still is just another tool that makes Diddy too easy to use and too annoying to fight.

I will say this, though... Ironically enough, the bad tier characters such as WFT or even Swords Mii Guy can actually harass Diddy and avoid getting grabbed as long as the banana is avoided. I play WFT. So Online I make Diddys really sad and mad by just being WFT. YOU'RE WOBBLING, TRY TO KEEP YOUR BALANCE NERD!

That has nothing to do with what I said....

 

[Emblem Lord]

The only imbeciles here are the likes of you, who think that programming a game is some easy, not time consuming task, and don't even realize the amount of dedication that goes into things like these. Nobody is forcing you to like the game, but if you're going to have the mentality that everything has to be spoonfed to you, and think every single complaint from every fan can possibly be adressed, then you're just fooling yourself.

Did you even read what I said?

I didn't say it was easy nor did I say it didn't take dedication. My complaint is what he is saying is blatant favoritism to a certain demographic and he is basically lying through his teeth.

You need to learn how to strawman better.

For starters at least make an attempt to discredit my argument instead of spewing fanboy garbage about how hard it is to make a game which I didn't even touch upon.

That is most likely the best you can do, since reading comprehension seems beyond your capabilities and as such actually coming up with counter arguments would be an impossible task.

 

[Strofirko]

The best thing out of all of the mess in this thread ,is this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/my-original-fears-of-nintendo-balancing-smash-are-coming-true.378529/
And off I go.

 

[LimitCrown]

Did you even read what I said?

I didn't say it was easy nor did I say it didn't take dedication. My complaint is what he is saying is blatant favoritism to a certain demographic and he is basically lying through his teeth.

You need to learn how to strawman better.

For starters at least make an attempt to discredit my argument instead of spewing fanboy garbage about how hard it is to make a game which I didn't even touch upon.

That is most likely the best you can do, since reading comprehension seems beyond your capabilities and as such actually coming up with counter arguments would be an impossible task.

All that you stated was that Sakurai is a stubborn fool and that you wouldn't give any credit to him for the balance patches.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^Correct.

That is exactly what I said.

 

[Weeman]

Did you even read what I said?

I didn't say it was easy nor did I say it didn't take dedication. My complaint is what he is saying is blatant favoritism to a certain demographic and he is basically lying through his teeth.

You need to learn how to strawman better.

For starters at least make an attempt to discredit my argument instead of spewing fanboy garbage about how hard it is to make a game which I didn't even touch upon.

That is most likely the best you can do, since reading comprehension seems beyond your capabilities and as such actually coming up with counter arguments would be an impossible task.

Ok then let me break it down for you:
"He is a stubborn fool stuck in his ways."
We could say the same about us competitive players, who apparently cannot comprehend that balancing isn't just limited to 1vs1 stock item-less matches, and that they have to count every single variable possiblewhen doing so, taking into account every single matchup from 2-8 players, in the different game modes, and isn't as easy as nerfing a character's certain move or hitbox.

"A living testament to Nintendo's game design philosophy and how they are out of touch with a chunk of their consumer base."
Of course, because every single company can be in touch with their millions of consumers, all with different opinions about how to improve their games, right? And as you said, we are only a chunk, probably just a small portion of Nintendo's audience, so why would they adress all the complaints of a small portion of a fanbase that not only cannot decide what they want, but also don't even have any idea of what they're talking about most of the time.

"Imbeciles."
So fanboy garbage it's worse than insulting someone you don't even know, and believe yourself so mighty and intelligent to think that you can do better than them?
Your comments are basically saying that Sakurai is some kind of corporation stereotype that only cares about money, and doesn't give a **** about the fans.
So this man, that has a family and a life that he puts aside for his passion of making games, for his fans, even at the expense of his health not only does not care about his fans, but also apparently enjoys mocking them?
What kind of bull**** logic is that? I'm not saying that he doesn't do mistakes or that i agree with his design philosophy all the time, but the man clearly has a lot of passion for his work, and it's just sad that some angry "fans" in the internet are not only throwing **** at his work, but also at his own person? How can you defend an argument of Sakurai "Not caring for his fans", when you don't even know the guy? What are your arguments for attacking his person and calling him an imbecile when you have never even experienced what is to work countless hours for your passion and fans?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everything you said falls apart when he has been shown to favor casual players time and time again. So he isn't out to make everyone happy. He is SPECIFICALLY aiming to please a specific group of players and alienate another group.

Solid rebuttal though.

Also I never said I was a genius. Do not make offhand comments. It dilutes your argument. Hit me with reason and logic. I have no use for your emotions or assumptions.

My evidence is all his past and recent interviews where its clear he has favoritism towards casual players. He has stated he does not like competition and cares little for competitive players. There are several other companies that care for both equally. Arc sys and capcom come to mind.

Also I said Nintendo themselves are imbeciles but that has less to do with Smash and more to do with their business model which is a failure.

 

[Weeman]

Everything you said falls apart when he has been shown to favor casual players time and time again. So he isn't out to make everyone happy. He is SPECIFICALLY aiming to please a specific group of players and alienate another group.

Solid rebuttal though.

Also I never said I was a genius. Do not make offhand comments. It dilutes your argument. Hit me with reason and logic. I have no use for your emotions or assumptions.

My evidence is all his past and recent interviews where its clear he has favoritism towards casual players. He has stated he does not like competition and cares little for competitive players. There are several other companies that care for both equally. Arc sys and capcom come to mind.

Also I said Nintendo themselves are imbeciles but that has less to do with Smash and more to do with their business model which is a failure.

"So he isn't out to make everyone happy. He is SPECIFICALLY aiming to please a specific group of players and alienate another group."
It's true that the consumer fanbase he aims for aren't competitive players, but to go as far as saying that he alienates them is a pretty black and white argument. Many people are dedicating and getting better at this game, with it's flaws and everything, so it isn't so much that he hates competitive, as it is that it's simply not their aiming, and rightfully so. I mean Smash purpose was to be a game that contrasted the highly competitive takes of Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, etc.. So them wanting to keep that pilosohpy because it's what made the game stand out isn't a bad decition, it just happens to be against our view, wich let's be real, is a minority.


"Also I never said I was a genius. Do not make offhand comments. It dilutes your argument. Hit me with reason and logic. I have no use for your emotions or assumptions."
True, sorry for that, i have removed it.

"My evidence is all his past and recent interviews where its clear he has favoritism towards casual players. He has stated he does not like competition and cares little for competitive players. There are several other companies that care for both equally. Arc sys and capcom come to mind."
Indeed, but it isn't so much about favoritism as it is to keep an artist integrity. As i said before he intended Smash to contrast highly competitive games, while the fans made competitive cause they wanted to, wich he didn't mind, i mean really if he was against competition then there wouldn't be so much options in the game, even with the removal of certain ATs, Smash is still a pretty complex game, and has many things that people can abuse to make it competitive, even if it's not ideal. A casual only game would be some kind of button masher with no complexity, Smash, while easy to pick up and play, it's still a pretty complex game to understand fully.

"Also I said Nintendo themselves are imbeciles but that has less to do with Smash and more to do with their business model which is a failure."
Not agreeing with their business practices isn't a reason to call them imbeciles, we are humas, we fail, we learn, have some emphaty and put yourself in their shoes.
Hate Nintendo's decisions all you want, but understand that implying that the company doesn't care about fans it's just a dull argument, considering that the premise of the company is to give fun to people. And if they fail to meet expectations, it's not that they don't care, just that they have to rethink their strategies. The "Evil corporation" kind of stereotype is just too single minded to hold any relevance, considering all that you have happening behind the scenes.

 

[LimitCrown]

^^^Correct.

That is exactly what I said.

Yes, and I don't see how that is a valid argument. It seems to be only an insult that is directed towards Sakurai.

 

[Zethoro]

It can lead in to another Up Air and it you can still get a Fair. No body off the top of my head has a better kill combo setup then Diddy.

Luigi's D-Throw can lead to 30-60% combos from 0, can lead into kill moves (Up-B, NAir or DAir spike at the edge of the stage) and is pretty much just as easy as Diddy's.
If we're including customs, then Dash Klaw Bowser counts too since it can combo into Bowser Bomb early on for 40%, combo into grab into FAir, or just combo into FAir for the kill at high percents.
Do note that these are true combos as well, and they're harder to DI than Diddy's hoo-hah shenanigans.
Diddy's not just "OP" because of the hoo-hah. He's fast, has good recovery, the best FAir and UAir in the game, the Hoo-Hah, Bananas which can lead into kill moves (JC to FSmash), the 2nd best command grab in the game, and a solid projectile.
1. Customs allowed gives this game more balance. Diddy's pretty much the only character that doesn't benefit at all from his customs, and for many characters they're almost essential to be good (Bowser, Kirby, Palutena, Miis).
2. Diddy's too "mainstream". ZeRo said he was the best and then everything turned for the worse. It's still too early to say Diddy is OP or broken.

That said, frankly I think that Sakurai's point has no merit and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. We're asking you to make any character viable, not to alienate casual fans. You can do the former without the latter happening.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They aren't evil. Just greedy and set in their ways. This started in the Wii era after bad sales for two console generations in a row. I understand focusing on casuals is a good way to build revenue, but to ignore their core gamer audience is a slap in the face.

 

[Pazzo.]

I can see a trend of confusing statements that will inevitably be misunderstood by the majority of the community.

Japanese into English is strange already.

 

[TTTTTsd]

They aren't evil. Just greedy and set in their ways. This started in the Wii era after bad sales for two console generations in a row. I understand focusing on casuals is a good way to build revenue, but to ignore their core gamer audience is a slap in the face.

Not to entirely derail this but I feel like you can only really majorly say this about Smash. In the 2-3 years of the WiiU's existence they have already given the fans more of what they wanted than in the years the Wii was even out. A new exclusive Zelda? A 3D Mario game that's really inspired? An amazing Donkey Kong game? A stronger, more convenient and easier to use system? That's not even talking the 3DS which has Majora's Mask 3D, a remake people wanted for how long, and tons of other stuff.

Plausible argument for Smash but not so much for the rest of it, especially not with stuff like this coming from their higher ups. http://www.computerandvideogames.co...lains-nintendos-renewed-passion-for-the-core/

Like, they're making things like Splatoon and all this other neat stuff that doesn't really seem....as casual oriented as the Wii. Dunno about anyone else but that's sort of how I feel about it. The WiiU is underselling exactly BECAUSE it's not aiming for that hyper-casual market, along with the fact that you can't bottle lightning twice, unfortunately.

 

[FruitNukes]

While I agree with him that not all characters need to be completely balanced and on equal footing, Sm4sh could certainly use a little more balancing than it currently has, mostly just from bringing the low-tiers up to a more viable level.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not to entirely derail this but I feel like you can only really majorly say this about Smash. In the 2-3 years of the WiiU's existence they have already given the fans more of what they wanted than in the years the Wii was even out. A new exclusive Zelda? A 3D Mario game that's really inspired? An amazing Donkey Kong game? A stronger, more convenient and easier to use system? That's not even talking the 3DS which has Majora's Mask 3D, a remake people wanted for how long, and tons of other stuff.

Plausible argument for Smash but not so much for the rest of it, especially not with stuff like this coming from their higher ups. http://www.computerandvideogames.co...lains-nintendos-renewed-passion-for-the-core/

Like, they're making things like Splatoon and all this other neat stuff that doesn't really seem....as casual oriented as the Wii. Dunno about anyone else but that's sort of how I feel about it. The WiiU is underselling exactly BECAUSE it's not aiming for that hyper-casual market, along with the fact that you can't bottle lightning twice, unfortunately.

I will give you that. Nintendo seems to be opening their eyes more about the failures of their marketing strats. I suppose Sakurai is too stuck in his ways.

*shrug