Sakurai knows what he is doing

[kashikomarimashita]

There is a lot of criticism about the recent updates and features shown on the Dojo website. Obviously you cant please everyone, but the way I see it the game looks to be a step above Melee.

Back in the day, 2001 to be exact, I was really impressed with Melee considering how soon it came out after the Gamecube launch. Really, I thought it was a masterpiece from the first time I played it. It totally exceeded my expectations. Yet even Melee was heavily criticized too before and after its launch because of its differences from the original N64 version. Well, with the test of time I think most of us can agree that Melee has turned out to be possibly the best fighting game ever.

In the case of Brawl Im not worried. Sakurai and his HAL team are geniuses. And this time around they have been given more development time and surely a larger budget. The end result will not disappoint.

I think most people are a little upset over having to wait so long. I mean it was announced that the game would be a launch title for the Wii. Then it was pushed back a year , but in time for the Holiday season. Incidentally, the original Dec. 3 release date was the same as that of Melee. But even that date got pushed back to '08. I cant say Im not disappointed over the added wait, but Sakurai himself said the delay is necessary to put out the best game possible. So put some faith in the guy. He probably only wants to make sure that the North American localization is flawless, or that all the online features have been sorted out come launch time.

As for all those people getting riled up over the Dojo site, I suggest you relax. Sakurai has only shown us part of the game. And I doubt he is going to expose everything ahead of time. There are unlockables for a reason. They are meant to be surprises. However, long before the American launch Im sure everything will have been revealed online from the Japanese version which comes out 17 days ahead of time. If anything Sakurai may include an extra feature/ character for the American version to justify the delay. Its all speculation at the moment but you have to admit things look great from what has already been shown.

We have come a long, long ways from the days of Smash N64. So I was thinking Id show a throwback from a more innocent time. Check out this commercial from the game that started it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cXKXWWILcc

Anyone remember this one? I recall a younger version of myself first wanting to play Smash after seeing it.

Update* I think a lot of people here see the problem here as an being the issue between casual and competitive play.

It would seem developers are more concerned with fun gameplay as opposed to elevated competition. And perhaps they could benefit from the advice of hardcore players, but they just prefer to keep it in house and do it their way. That is just how Nintendo is. But dont think for a moment that Sakurai nor his team are pompous idiots. They have taken some suggestions and involved the fan base to an extent. Moreover, this is the third time around that they are making a Smash game. And as pointed out, the developers themselves are players. But unlike the vast majority of us posting on Smash Boards these guys have actually taken the time to learn how to do programming, concept design, 3-D modelling, etc., for the purpose of creating worthwhile games.

Nintendo is pushing gaming to new limits and I think Brawl reflects that. They are incorporating ideas that I have never seen before, like writing in your own taunts, online spectating, or a high degree of music customization with their own songs. And lets not forget that the character and level designs are ingenious. Its like a gift to all of us gamers out there who have grown up with these series, while serving as an introduction to those unfamiliar with Nintendo's past. This is what makes it fun. Not whether or not they will include wavedashing.

Nintendo knows best what makes Nintendo games great, and seldom do they disappoint (eg: Mario Kart Double Dash IMO). And of course they have yet to put out the perfect game, but they have come closest in terms of consistently enjoyable gameplay.

I think a lot of gamers now just havent been around long enough to understand and appreciate the evolution of video gaming. Video games will always change, but not necessarily in a good way. It depends on a fine balance of several factors, but when it comes down to it gameplay comes first. And fun, innovative gameplay is Nintendo's forte. Dont doubt these guys. Sakurai and Co. will deliver another masterpiece come Jan.24th.
________________

 

[amost]

aaah those were the good 'ol days. I can't believe it's almost been 10 years... I feel old :S

 

[Jumpinjahosafa]

I remember being young enough to watcht hat commercial and not know whats going on, and having that song stuck in my head for days..

 

[DeuceBlade]

*hopes for an original commercial for brawl and not a "wii would like to play" one*

 

[Lightning Ice]

Stop getting me all excited, it makes it harder to wait for the game.

 

[Xanderous]

I disagree. I think the Smash community could make a better game than he ever could.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I disagree. I think the Smash community could make a better game than he ever could.

Explain, cause I think if it was up to the community as a whole the game would have so many broken fights, and tingle would actually be playable.

 

[Zanibas]

I don't think a lot of people who visit here aren't exactly game designers or developers =/.

And that must have taken a really bulky man to fit inside the Pikachu costume :D

 

[Xanderous]

For one, we'd make the game very balanced, with more than just three characters dominating tournaments. Second, we'd make Zero Suit Samus a good idea.

 

[Cless]

It would take forever to make the game perfectly balanced, even then it probably wouldn't end up balanced.

 

[PaperLink]

plus, if the smash community made it, the game would have soooooo many techs... WAVEUPDASHCANCELINGEDGEHUGGING!

 

[Chi's Finest]

To be honesst, I think they game has been finished for a while now and the extra time is more testing. Since Wii is unable to d/l patches and stuff like 360, they have to get it right the first time, so they're probably trying to balance Brawl the best they can in this extra time.

 

[Zanibas]

Balancing is NOT EASY. You have to take into account speed, strength, ability of other skills, and all that nice stuff. And that needs serious testing, the knowledge of how much to adjust, all within a time frame that you must complete this by.

And once we have the "concept" down, you still need to conform the character models in order to do your action, along with the physics engine to compy with that move. Then you double check it against as many possible scenarios as possible, and then tweak again =P.


I don't think we as a community have that patience or skill :D

 

[Xanderous]

Maybe not, but at least we know what it takes to make a competitive game that retains its fun for the less interested crowd, while it seems like Sakurai made Melee so good by accident and thinks it has to come down to competitive OR casual, when it can clearly be both.

 

[The Hypnotist]

I agree with Xanderous.

If we had the same resources and money we could make a better game (for us at least).

There's so many things that Sakurai will never realize. Like making items optional in one player mode. Or bringing back wavedashing, or making the game balanced for us. We really could make a better game. As far as how characters would go the smash senate would agree on a number, and then there would be a poll on what characters, I mean we really could make a better game, who agrees?

 

[Zanibas]

Well true, we do have some great "ideas" that we can contribute to Smash, but the only thing holding Sakurai back from taking in all our suggestions is the massive suggestions he would get and have to compile, as well as legality issues. Some company would probably use it against Smash somehow, and guess what, we have a lawsuit =D

Life isn't fair, but at least use the shrubberies they throw at you =/

 

[_Phloat_]

Sakurai's next update:

Programm it yourself folks! Thats right, we are making a character maker for you, and you can program all the things you love from games into smash, our loyal NSider's characters get to be in the game!

Nsider may be down, but im still scared.

 

[kashikomarimashita]

Its wishful thinking to believe that the fans could make a better game. The amount of work that goes in to a video game by a large team of professionals is something beyond that which the players can fathom. Moreover the Japanese just think different. They have a their own bizarre touch that just gives their games a certain quality that fans eat up. I mean really, look at the pokemon, and how they come out in the game. Its so unusual and yet it grows on us.

As for balance, that is something that is left out in the open. But for the hardcore gamers that might find it flawed, 98% wouldnt even know the difference. And thats just speculation as to what the final game will be like. No one will know until they have played with the game for dozens of hours. So for now, why not just try to be a bit positive and put some faith in the man who has already proved himself and provided us with so much enjoyment.

 

[psyniac_123]

I'm pretty sure Sakurai has got the balance down. As for us making the game... no one would be happy. There are too many people with too many ideas in the community. We'd never be able to make any concrete decisions.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

Its wishful thinking to believe that the fans could make a better game. The amount of work that goes in to a video game by a large team of professionals is something beyond that which the players can fathom.

Absolutely not true. Why? You seem to imply that its impossible for one to be both a fan/competitive player of a series and to be a game designer. For many knowledgeable about competitive fighting games, there's a quasi-famous counter-example: David Sirlin. http://www.sirlin.net/

Capcom has actually entrusted Sirlin to balance the new version of Street Fighter II. I highly recommend you read his articles about how he intends to do this.

One of the fundamental differences between smash bros and other fighting games is that most other fighting games see much more incremental releases. As a result, sequels are a process more of fine-tuning than bold and sweeping new changes. The downside of this is that the sequels are rarely innovative, and don't add much more new material. The upside, is that greatly improve the balance and solve many of the finer problems in their predecessors.

Much has been made about how some competitive fans are upset that they aren't getting Melee 2.0. I am, but I'm more upset that we will never see a Melee 2.0 than that Brawl isn't going to be Melee 2.0. As a result we will never have a version of Melee with better character balance, more varied but still fair stages, or an items setting that could even conceivably used in competitive play.

Unless the Brawl Perfection Program includes rebalancing characters and fine-tuning the gameplay in a process similar to how other fighting games see incremental improvements (preferably in light of comments by the highest level players in order to solve potential problems in the high level play) it is extremely naive to think that Brawl will not run into similar issues Melee has in regards to competitive play. Unless we're playing essentially Brawl 2.0 instead of Brawl 1.0 in February, it is foolish to believe that the Perfection Program will have eliminated these problems. As I see little indication that this is the case , I have to say that I think Brawl will be a great game, but will probably be nearly as flawed as Melee.

Ike for garbage tier for the loss =( .

/Edit: for a final note: I'd like to say that although my post was very negative, I actually have a very high anticipation of Brawl and regard for Sakurai. I think he'll come out with a new game very much as awesome as melee. But more likely than not, very much as flawed.

/edit 2 - A clarification: The finer problems I'm talking about are the imbalances and issues that will arise in high level competition. Hence, its very difficult for the developers, or anyone for that matter, to anticipate all of these problems before the metagame approaches its highest level. In light of this, feedback and preferably beta play experience from the players who will most reliably play the game near the highest level, the best of the previous iteration, is the best source for brining these problems to the foreground during development for the developers to deal with.

 

[TheMastermind]

Usually fans of games can make excelent expantion packs! But when it comes to makeing a NEW game. Fans just dont have the creative ideas. Smash 64 fans would have made an extremy balenced Smash 64 2.0
They would have never included half the techniques Melee included.

Same thing with brawl. I believe this new airdodge will add alot more strategie and depth than wavedashing ever did. Every change from Melee was done on purpose.

 

[Zek]

Give it a rest you guys... It's really pitiful to watch people sling insults at the developers behind their favorite game whenever they're upset that things don't go their way. Competitive players are not the sole demographic of Smash or even the most important one. I wouldn't want anyone with such biased personal interests to be in charge of developing the game, no matter how well they know it. They would run the game into the ground. The growth of tournament play since the release of Melee will definitely influence the balancing priorities of the devs, but you guys need to get over yourselves. Even the entirety of people signed up for SmashBoards, many of which are not at all hardcore competitive, are just a niche group compared to Smash's overall sales numbers.

 

[Tony_]

People here have no idea on how games are made. This thread fails. Badly.

 

[TaurToph]

Well I AM a game developter and I can say its totally possible to anyone to make a game, if he's dedicated enough.

 

[Tony_]

Well I AM a game developter and I can say its totally possible to anyone to make a game, if he's dedicated enough.

Congrats on being one of the few on Smash Boards to actually know what goes into developing a game from scratch.

 

[kashikomarimashita]

Absolutely not true. Why? You seem to imply that its impossible for one to be both a fan/competitive player of a series and to be a game designer. For many knowledgeable about competitive fighting games, there's a quasi-famous counter-example: David Sirlin. http://www.sirlin.net/
....

I see your point, but like you say Smash is not the same as Street Fighter or KOF. It is an entirely different take on fighting that is intended mostly for the casual gamer. Especially for people new to the series.

I think the developers are more concerned with fun gameplay as opposed to elevated competition. And perhaps they could benefit from the advice of hardcore players, but they prefer to keep it in house and do it their way. That is just how Nintendo is. But dont think for a moment that these guys are idiots. Nintendo is pushing gaming to new limits and I think Brawl reflects that. They are incorporating ideas that I have never seen before, like writing in your own taunts, or such a level of music customization with their own songs. And the character and level designs are ingenious. Its like a gift to all of us gamers out there who have grown up with these series, and an introduction to those unfamiliar with Nintendo's past. This is what makes it fun. Not whether or not they will include wavedashing.

Nintendo/HAL Studios knows best what makes Nintendo games great, and seldom do they disappoint. And of course they have yet to put out a perfect game, but they have come closest in terms of consistently enjoyable gameplay.

I think a lot of gamers now just havent been around long enough to understand and appreciate the evolution of video gaming. Video games will always change, but not necessarily in a good way. It depends on a fine balance of several factors, but when it comes down to it gameplay comes first. And fun, innovative gameplay is Nintendo's forte. Dont doubt these guys. They will deliver a masterpiece come Jan 24th.

 

[wagnerelli]

I don't think that the fans could make a better game. Or even finish the game. Just from what I have seen, it would take us forever to even decide the roster. Much less everything else.

 

[error_alt_delete]

it sounds as though all you guys want is melee 2.0, why?
I am personaly glad we are getting an essentialy new game, its adds more fun, excitement, and freedom to it. I am glad that sakurai throws a wronch into it every now and then to see how it turns out, cause that is what keeps the games from becomeing repetitive..

 

[bballstar23]

I LOVED that commercial! It is the reason why I bought the original Smash 64. I had to wait the whole summer to play that.

 

[xbrinkx]

Ha. This makes me think of how it would be here at smashboards without the Dojo. Seriously, if Sakurai didn't care about the fans then he wouldn't be making these updates. Think of all the characters we wanted in the game that he put in because of a poll. This truly is the fan's game. We're more involved than you'd think and I'm sorry, but do you just want Melee 2.0 with a few fixes and same physics system and such? C'mon, this is a new game that carries a few of the old modes and almost the same formula. We wouldn't have online or stage builder if it were Melee 2.0.

 

[Xanderous]

Give it a rest you guys... It's really pitiful to watch people sling insults at the developers behind their favorite game whenever they're upset that things don't go their way. Competitive players are not the sole demographic of Smash or even the most important one. I wouldn't want anyone with such biased personal interests to be in charge of developing the game, no matter how well they know it. They would run the game into the ground. The growth of tournament play since the release of Melee will definitely influence the balancing priorities of the devs, but you guys need to get over yourselves. Even the entirety of people signed up for SmashBoards, many of which are not at all hardcore competitive, are just a niche group compared to Smash's overall sales numbers.

It's called logic, and here's how you use it:

Hardcore players are the only ones who CARE about balance. Everyone else wouldn't know what balance was if it bit them in the ***. Therefore, no matter how the game turns out, those people will be content, but the hardcore players, the ones who actually care about the game, are left out. And that, my friend, is bull****. A competitive game, believe it or not, is still fun for casual gamers, but a casual game is not fun for competitive players. To maximize popularity and positive reviews, ultimately leading to more revenue, he'd make it with the hardcore in mind.

 

[Super_alex2]

extra character or feature? Doubt it.

 

[lavamage]

as mentioned, balencing is not easy. If you were to take balencing the game into your own hands, everyone would be exactly the same. To make unique characters, but with game based movesets, and keeeping everyone balenced is nearly impossible.


Anyways, would you have ever come up with sub Space Emissary? would you have ever thought to do multiplyer home run contest?

 

[HourglassMemory]

LEt's not forget that Sakurai's team had almost destroyed their gamecube controllers when he met them.Because of playing Melee so much!

I can already imagine him walking to a door and thiking "These people won't understand my concepts, it'll be very hard to do a good game with them" and then he opens the door and they're screaming as they play Melee.
Imagine giving that team a YEAR to develop the game.

Not only does Sakurai know what he's doing, but his team understands him(and the game) and is motivated to work and give ideas and make it better every chance they get.

The team is made of players themselves, what more could you ask for?

 

[SirroMinus1]

if sakurai didn't know what he was doing he wouldn't update the site everyday

 

[Tobi-]

Actually, Sakurai has no idea what he is doing. He may be a professional, and a game designer, but in fact, everytime he sits down on the table, he has no clue what on earth he is gonna do next. Sakurai is wild crazy one.
I mean after all, that's how kirby was created. he had no idea what he was doing, and saw a cute balloon looking test dummy, and made kirby off that. Lol. what makes you think he has a clue now?

if you havent realised I was joking yet and flame in the next post I feel sorry for you.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Perhaps the community would make better game for itself, given the money and resources (which is vague enough). But it wouldn't be the best for everyone.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Perhaps the community would make better game for itself, given the money and resources (which is vague enough). But it wouldn't be the best for everyone.

Agreed; better for competitive players =/= better for everyone (nothing against competitive players).

 

[Meow-Mix]

I dunno about you guys but I think Brawl's development will turn out just fine. Some of you worry too much. I'm glad Sakurai and his team are making some necessary changes and tweaks and adding new features. Don't get me wrong here, I love Melee, but I'd be very disappointed if Brawl were to be a Melee 2.0, cause if I wanted to play a game that was just like Melee.... well I'm sure you all can figure that out Brawl will be a new experience and I'm sure it's gonna replace Melee. (for me that is)

 

[Crescent]

I personally am all for the progression. Now don't get me wrong, Melee is basically my favorite game of all time, next to SMRPG, and if a so-called "Melee 2.0" were released it would no doubt be amazing and fantastic and wondrous and all that jazz, but innovation is the driving force of the video game industry and if Sakurai and co were NOT trying new things with Brawl, it would most likely not be as good of a game because of it. Smash isn't a game like DoA or any other arcade-style fighting game in that each new version is basically more of the same, just fine-tuned and shinier. Melee took the components of Smash64 and completely evolved into the game we have come to know and love today, and Brawl is going to do the same thing. I have complete faith in Sakurai and company to make Brawl the amazing game we all know it will be. They won't let us down.