Sakurai is a Genius: An observation on Final Smashes

[The Adder]

I see people running around some SSBB boards yammering on about how Smash Balls will/should be banned in tournaments because FSs like Bowser's are so broken.

And it made me think.

To make Bowser's FS a viable option in a tornament, one would have to be good with Bowser to begin with. I mean, no one is going to play a character based on the potential for getting an item that may or may not appear during the match when they can't play as the character by themselves. Especially since Giga Bowser would not be able to 4-stock your opponent, who you won't be able to beat as normal Bowser since you suck with him, before he transforms back.

Do you know what this means?

People who main Bowser are pretty rare, off the top of my head only Gimpy and Mr C come to mind. This actually FORCES people who want to incorporate Giga Bowser into their skill set to make regular Bowser a viable option. It FORCES them to get good with Bowser

And Bowser is just an example, I'm sure this extends to other characters.

It doesn't take away from the variety of characters seen in tournaments, it adds to it. Why would tournaments ban something that makes more characters viable?

Sakurai = Genius

 

[5150]

I see people running around some SSBB boards yammering on about how Smash Balls will/should be banned in tournaments because FSs like Bowser's are so broken.

And it made me think.

To make Bowser's FS a viable option in a tornament, one would have to be good with Bowser to begin with. I mean, no one is going to play a character based on the potential for getting an item that may or may not appear during the match when they can't play as the character by themselves. Especially since Giga Bowser would not be able to 4-stock your opponent, who you won't be able to beat as normal Bowser since you suck with him, before he transforms back.

Do you know what this means?

People who main Bowser are pretty rare, off the top of my head only Gimpy and Mr C come to mind. This actually FORCES people who want to incorporate Giga Bowser into their skill set to make regular Bowser a viable option. It FORCES them to get good with Bowser

And Bowser is just an example, I'm sure this extends to other characters.

It doesn't take away from the variety of characters seen in tournaments, it adds to it. Why would tournaments ban something that makes more characters viable?

Sakurai = Genius

you are so ignorant, it is ridiculous. this post is so stupid that it doesnt warrant an intelligent response.

 

[SirroMinus1]

i dont think bowsers FS is broken.

 

[BigRick]

Sakurai is not a genius.

If he was, Fox would've never had a reflector since Smash 64.

 

[MookieRah]

Bowser is pretty good in Brawl from what we can tell. Way better than what he was in melee. Also, explain Sonic. He's really good AND has a final smash that is debatably as good if not better than Bowsers. Now look at DK, who pretty much didn't get any buffs or nerfs. He is merely "ok", yet has a garbage FS.

Please don't act like we are idiots in our speculations. People like to assume we are ban happy tourney***s that are out to destroy the game.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Sakurai = Genius

At least he got one thing down. If you didn't agree with this, you probably wouldn't be here.

 

[The Adder]

you are so ignorant, it is ridiculous. this post is so stupid that it doesnt warrant an intelligent response.

Thank you for your contempt, it has been duely noted and filed away for futre reference.

Bowser is pretty good in Brawl from what we can tell. Way better than what he was in melee. Also, explain Sonic. He's really good AND has a final smash that is debatably as good if not better than Bowsers. Now look at DK, who pretty much didn't get any buffs or nerfs. He is merely "ok", yet has a garbage FS.

Valid points all. Let me rephrase, it isn't a matter of character balance I was trying to point out, more like a matter of more varied character use.

Please don't act like we are idiots in our speculations. People like to assume we are ban happy tourney***s that are out to destroy the game.

Oh, I wasn't referring to you all specifically, I only come here to make the occasional post nowadays (I used to be here far more often other another screen name). I am well aware of the thought process that goes into making tournament rules and was simply trying to look at another side of the coin.

 

[MookieRah]

Valid points all. Let me rephrase, it isn't a matter of character balance I was trying to point out, more like a matter of more varied character use.

If you are talking from the perspective of casual play then yeah, people would like to play a character for their FS and think it's cool and all that; however, from a tournament perspective, the more balanced you are with the game the more variety you will see in peoples' character choices.

Balance goes hand in hand with variety.

 

[DragonBlade]

Think about the reason tournaments are held. They are to let people in the community play other people so people can test their skill and get better. Anything that does not test skill or help players get better is useless when playing in a tournament or even just playing competitively with your friends.

Final Smashes are a loss of depth to the game. Instead of a player needing to think about the situation, predict the opponent's moves, execute a finishing move with near flawless technical skill, and maybe throw in some mind games, with the final small the player only needs to press a single button for the same effect. This doesn't allow the player to get better or test a players skill. Its a significant loss of core smash gameplay at the gain of nothing more than some flashy animations.

Since the Final Smashes trivialize battles like this, it prevents players from mastering all aspects of the game. The use of final smashes is counterproductive for the goals of competitive and tournament play.

 

[The Director]

Well here's an observation not many of you have picked up on: Sakurai put final smashes into Brawl to be fun. Re-read the recent final smash update. You'll notice that he says that it's fun to get KOs with FSs, and it's also fun to run away from them.

Is he a genius? Probably not. Is he full of ideas that would make a **** good video game? Oh yeah.

And FSs are going to be turned off in tournaments, hands down. There's no point in arguing it anymore, now's the part where we just accept it.

 

[The Adder]

If you are talking from the perspective of casual play then yeah, people would like to play a character for their FS and think it's cool and all that; however, from a tournament perspective, the more balanced you are with the game the more variety you will see in peoples' character choices.

Balance goes hand in hand with variety.

Yes, I am very familiar with that fact, but you're kind of missing my point.

I'm talking about the FS adding another aspect to a character, and giving an added incentive to play as them.

I'm talking about finding a character who may not be the best for racking up the KO's, but has a decent ability to stay alive in the right players' hands and an above average FS and learning how to take advantage of these attributes. Keeping one's self close to the opponent stock-wise and capitalizing on any smash balls you may find.

No, not everyone will play with lower tiered characters just to capitalize on this, but there would be more reason to look at these characters than there would be if they just sucked and didn't have a really good FS.

 

[gigasteve]

As Sakurai said, all FS's can miss. But I don't think they should be in tournaments.

 

[MookieRah]

but you're kind of missing my point.

I'm talking about the FS adding another aspect to a character, and giving an added incentive to play as them.

Well I'm talking from experience as a professional low tier player as well as a long time competitive smasher who has seen people come and go. People will gravitate to the better characters because they are better. Most people do this. FS's are cool, but they are poor incentives to play a character, ESPECIALLY in a tournament setting. I've also told you that some FS's are completely out of whack, so you stating how using it at the best time doesn't really make much sense. One could argue that you are missing the point.

If you want to see more variety make the game as balanced as possible. Little fun tricks aren't going to amount to much on the tournament scene.

 

[The Adder]

but there would be more reason to look at these characters than there would be if they just sucked and didn't have a really good FS.

This is everything that I said in my last post that actually matters. I'm not saying that great FS = WOAMG MUST PLAY THIS CHARACTER. I'm not saying great FS = substitute for balance. I AM saying great FS could make the difference between "Hmmm, just maybe..." and "Screw that".

 

[DraginHikari]

That's kind of the interest point about Smash compared to most fighting games in general. There are alot of casual and competitive options that allow people to play however they wish.

Which is why for the most part trying to compare things like this for tournment is a tad futile because there is little middleground for people on both sides to meet at. I've seen alot of competitives posts (Both here and elsewhere) who think FS and well as some new items should be given a chance as well... what's universally accepted at tournments will develop over time like Melee did.

Guess that's why the these debate drag out like they do. There's a certain level of uncertainity involved.

 

[maximus]

No one is going to play a character based on the potential for getting an item that may or may not appear during the match when they can't play as the character by themselves.

One can always make the extra effort by practicing as the specified character to achieve this purpose... I did something like this with Akuma in Street Fighter-- played as him simply because of his specials. Furthermore, how popular a certain character is in Melee has nothing to do with how popular they will be in Brawl. Most people employ different characters per game, as opposed to always using Samus, for example, because movesets do change. It is all more complicated than you make it out to be.

 

[Igneous42]

I'm a casual player but I can already tell you there is a big problem with FS and them being in tournaments. Of the characters on the demo 3 had FS that were pretty much instant KO's if you had at least 50%

Link, Ike and Meta knight. Meta knight most of all, it's pretty much an instant KO. Ike's also is pretty much an Instant KO though not always. Links isn't always but if you have decent % it probably will be and even if you do survive there isn't much hope, you'll still come out of it with High %.

 

[The Adder]

One can always make the extra effort by practicing as the specified character to achieve this purpose...

If you had continued to read the post you would have known I addressed both of your points.

 

[SJAK47]

That's kind of the interest point about Smash compared to most fighting games in general. There are alot of casual and competitive options that allow people to play however they wish.

Which is why for the most part trying to compare things like this for tournment is a tad futile because there is little middleground for people on both sides to meet at. I've seen alot of competitives posts (Both here and elsewhere) who think FS and well as some new items should be given a chance as well... what's universally accepted at tournments will develop over time like Melee did.

Guess that's why the these debate drag out like they do. There's a certain level of uncertainity involved.

Definitely. These topics always seem to go "you're ignorant" or "I don't think so" and you can kind of tell what kind of player the person is depending on the answer.

But on topic, I understand what you're saying but again, back to the quote, there is little middle ground. It's kind of like I have to decide for final smash or against final smash. Final smash definitely adds a little more flavor (needed or unneeded) to the game but can also affect your level and satisfaction of play.

Does any of what I said make sense? If I didn't, my bad.

 

[SamusPoop]

You're drawing conclusions from a completely different game...

Final smashes add more luck than skill to the game, and any competative player dosn't want to play with luck, do they? I don't think people are really concerned about how good one final smash is compared to another, but rather the 'item' aspect of it.

You could be a ****ing amazing fox player, and be able to incorperate items into your playing style, but they still banned items at tournaments.

The reasons you listed don't combat the reasons final smashes and items shoudl be banned from tourny's.

 

[The Adder]

You're drawing conclusions from a completely different game...

What part of "Bowser is just an example" am I not getting across?

 

[Takalth]

but there would be more reason to look at these characters than there would be if they just sucked and didn't have a really good FS.

But you can say that about any good ability, any cool move, and basically any positive aspect of any character.

 

[Shiny Ivysaur]

While it's not perfect, final smashes DO balance characters. Look at kirby. We'll probably stay as nerfed as ever, but he gets an escellent final smash for a buff. Peach was obviously hit hard by the nerfstick, so she gets a final smash that brings her back up to a level near where she used to be, but a little more balanced. While there are good points for and against smash balls being allowed, I think that if we eliminate them we only widen the tier gaps that will exist, and we know they will: Brawl will have a large diverse groups of characters; tiers are inescapeable.

 

[tutata]

WoW some 1 should just play friendlys, tourneys are meant for skill not items. " the adder"
If a char is not a high tier he does not deserve to use items. The user will choose the low tier char "bowser" lets say he sucked 4 brawl , only when he has a chance or the low tier is a counter or is he is "true to his main".

 

[MookieRah]

Peach was obviously hit hard by the nerfstick

WHAT??? Ok... they slightly nerfed her downsmash, but they buffed her speed amongst other things. Peach has way more potential in Brawl than she did in Melee, and she was already really good.

Sonic is really good, and has an incredible final smash.

DK is "ok" yet has a ****ty final smash.

They aren't balanced -_-.

 

[heety9]

I think the slow people like Bowser have REALLY good FSs because they are slow and it is harder for them to get them. Makes sense, right? But still, an item is an item. They create unfair advantages/disadvantages so they MUST be banned.

 

[JJFMJR]

I see people running around some SSBB boards yammering on about how Smash Balls will/should be banned in tournaments because FSs like Bowser's are so broken.

And it made me think.

To make Bowser's FS a viable option in a tornament, one would have to be good with Bowser to begin with. I mean, no one is going to play a character based on the potential for getting an item that may or may not appear during the match when they can't play as the character by themselves. Especially since Giga Bowser would not be able to 4-stock your opponent, who you won't be able to beat as normal Bowser since you suck with him, before he transforms back.

Do you know what this means?

People who main Bowser are pretty rare, off the top of my head only Gimpy and Mr C come to mind. This actually FORCES people who want to incorporate Giga Bowser into their skill set to make regular Bowser a viable option. It FORCES them to get good with Bowser

And Bowser is just an example, I'm sure this extends to other characters.

It doesn't take away from the variety of characters seen in tournaments, it adds to it. Why would tournaments ban something that makes more characters viable?

Sakurai = Genius

Well, It does seem like it would make for more viable use of bowser in this case, but I'm not sure if all characters will be that way. As for FSs in Tourneys, they will have to be, otherwise it takes away from Brawl being Brawl and not Melee. There are very few things separating Melee from Brawl, the big one is obviously the Final Smash.

 

[RDK]

Is the maker of this thread even serious? Because I just laughed for about five minutes straight after reading the first post.

For the love of God, mods--close this thread.

 

[MookieRah]

I think the slow people like Bowser have REALLY good FSs because they are slow and it is harder for them to get them. Makes sense, right?

Bowser can break them much easier. I know I remember one guy saying that it's a ***** for Sonic to break them. So the speed/power thing kinda balances somewhat when it comes to getting a FS. The problem is when it spawn is still random. So it could put it right above Bowser, which is handing him an invitation to Gigarape.

 

[RDK]

Bowser can break them much easier. I know I remember one guy saying that it's a ***** for Sonic to break them. So the speed/power thing kinda balances somewhat when it comes to getting a FS. The problem is when it spawn is still random. So it could put it right above Bowser, which is handing him an invitation to Gigarape.

But what you have to remember is that it's all about chance. Just like with items--If I'm playing in a tournament, with money on the line, and a Smash Ball appears above my opponent, and he's able to break it with one blow and send my *** flying into the side deathwall, I'm going to be pretty mad.

 

[Brenco55]

What you're sudgesting means that the best chars will have the worst FS's and DK is obviously not the best char and clearly has the worst FS.

 

[MookieRah]

But what you have to remember is that it's all about chance. Just like with items--If I'm playing in a tournament, with money on the line, and a Smash Ball appears above my opponent, and he's able to break it with one blow and send my *** flying into the side deathwall, I'm going to be pretty mad.

Oh mangz, I'm not arguing against you at all XD. I was just saying. Read my other posts and you'll see.

 

[RDK]

Oh mangz, I'm not arguing against you at all XD. I was just saying. Read my other posts and you'll see.

Oh I know what you meant, I'm just saying that more for the people who think the FS's actually have a shot at making the game more balanced. If anything, it's just one more thing that the developers are going to have to haggle with to make it more fair. It's a step in the wrong direction.

Thank God we can turn it off.

 

[2007]

I see people running around some SSBB boards yammering on about how Smash Balls will/should be banned in tournaments because FSs like Bowser's are so broken.

And it made me think.

To make Bowser's FS a viable option in a tornament, one would have to be good with Bowser to begin with. I mean, no one is going to play a character based on the potential for getting an item that may or may not appear during the match when they can't play as the character by themselves. Especially since Giga Bowser would not be able to 4-stock your opponent, who you won't be able to beat as normal Bowser since you suck with him, before he transforms back.

Do you know what this means?

People who main Bowser are pretty rare, off the top of my head only Gimpy and Mr C come to mind. This actually FORCES people who want to incorporate Giga Bowser into their skill set to make regular Bowser a viable option. It FORCES them to get good with Bowser

And Bowser is just an example, I'm sure this extends to other characters.

It doesn't take away from the variety of characters seen in tournaments, it adds to it. Why would tournaments ban something that makes more characters viable?

Sakurai = Genius

I can see where you're getting with this. Pikachu makes a good example as well. if you're able to keep the little rat under control then you'll have good player controls in general.

that is all for now.
=2007=

 

[The Adder]

What you're sudgesting means that the best chars will have the worst FS's and DK is obviously not the best char and clearly has the worst FS.

And clearly you're not addressing what I was actually suggesting. You guys simply infer that that is what I mean, probably because you've heard it before.

I sum up, pretty well in my last post on the first page:

I AM saying great FS could make the difference between "Hmmm, just maybe..." and "Screw that".

Emphasis on could. I used Bowser as an example not as the basis for a rule.

Oh, might I add that the basis for this

It doesn't take away from the variety of characters seen in tournaments, it adds to it. Why would tournaments ban something that makes more characters viable?

Was some person on the board I am referring to saying that Giga Bowser didn't balance the game, that instead of everyone maining "so and so" they'd main Bowser for the GB FS. And that that was the reason they would be banned.

Just to add some context.

 

[pokeman800]

blah blah blah...
People who main Bowser are pretty rare
blah blah blah...

Problem solved.

 

[Krell]

I see people running around some SSBB boards yammering on about how Smash Balls will/should be banned in tournaments because FSs like Bowser's are so broken.

And it made me think.

To make Bowser's FS a viable option in a tornament, one would have to be good with Bowser to begin with. I mean, no one is going to play a character based on the potential for getting an item that may or may not appear during the match when they can't play as the character by themselves. Especially since Giga Bowser would not be able to 4-stock your opponent, who you won't be able to beat as normal Bowser since you suck with him, before he transforms back.

Do you know what this means?

People who main Bowser are pretty rare, off the top of my head only Gimpy and Mr C come to mind. This actually FORCES people who want to incorporate Giga Bowser into their skill set to make regular Bowser a viable option. It FORCES them to get good with Bowser

And Bowser is just an example, I'm sure this extends to other characters.

It doesn't take away from the variety of characters seen in tournaments, it adds to it. Why would tournaments ban something that makes more characters viable?

Sakurai = Genius

Fortunately, Bowser got a giant buff in Brawl.

And, as of right now, I prescribe to the theory that SB shouldn't be used in tournaments. I won't be hard on this, though, as I have not played yet and do not know firsthand how it effects gameplay. It may actually add that much more skill and excitement to tournamnets.

 

[Mikezor]

So from all The Adder's quoting, and the fact that he/she used to be an active poster... Circus? Just a guess. Your style of writing resembles Circus's if anything.

 

[Krell]

It seems everybody has issues with Giga Bowser. Apparently most of you didn't play Melee, because I have two words for you.
Jiggly

Puff.

 

[Blu-ninja]

well of course sakurai is a genius.


he invented the catapult.