Sakurai "aiming to make Super Smash Bros. best character game in the world"

[MajorMajora]

I agree that most talk about how tripping ruins Brawl competitively is overblown and in practice that it's no big deal. I just hate when people act like Sakurai is a saint for removing something that is objectively bad game design. Like what, he was going to purposely keep something that awful in the game? Surely he's better than that.

He noticed people hated it and got rid of it. It proves that he listens to people. However small that was, the fact that he listened is still there and means something to some people.

 

[pizzapie7]

He noticed people hated it and got rid of it. It proves that he listens to people. However small that was, the fact that he listened is still there and means something to some people.

If that's true, isn't that troubling? The fact that he needed other people to tell him to remove something so blatantly bad? It's like a chef needing someone to tell him that the pasta he's making does not need mustard on it.

 

[MajorMajora]

If that's true, isn't that troubling? The fact that he needed other people to tell him to remove something so blatantly bad? It's like a chef needing someone to tell him that the pasta he's making does not need mustard on it.

He tried something, it didn't work. This happens extraordinary numbers of times in every game franchise. There's nothing wrong with games having negative qualities added accidentally when experimenting.

 

[κomıc]

BlazBlue will change entire across-the-board mechanics (mostly guard mechanics) and there were big differences between CT and CS for some characters in how their mechanics and moves work. I never played the latest one (Chrono Phantasma) but again it had big mechanical changes. I don't know about how vets were treated though.

IIRC, Soul Calibur 2's Nightmare became Soul Calibur 3's Siegfried while SC3's Nightmare was... something of a juggling character? I forget. Cassandra was also supposed to be a "new" version of Sophitia in SC2, though Sophitia was an unlockable.

So yeah, characters do typically undergo pretty big changes between installments, sometimes because there were issues with those characters in previous versions, and sometimes because they just want to do something new with the character.

Right. I remember that they drastically changed Kilik set into that eye-ball fighter thing from SCII that after every match he gets a different weapon from the cast. At least Marth didn't get changed into a Lancer or some other class in Smash.

 

[Arcadenik]

With future inclusions like Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt Dog, Shulk, Dr. Mario, and Chorus Men, Sakurai is really doing his best to make it the best character game possible, inclusions ranging from the iconic to the best-received games in Nintendo's history.

Duck Hunt Dog alone would make me hype! Just one little problem, he is still unconfirmed. *crosses fingers that he survives the following week*

 

[Nielicus]

Actually I'll watch later, gonna keep up with the kardashians now e.e

 

[Senario]

You know, I'd love to hear people who play other fighting games like Tekken, Street Fighter and others have to say. Because if I remember correctly, characters in those games get as much changes the characters do in Smash Bros if I'm not mistaken.

Not in general. For Blazblue the biggest change I can think of is Jin from the first blazblue game compared to what he turned into later. In the first game the general dominant playstyle for him was to be really defensive and control area since that is how all the good characters played in that game. But he had plenty of odd but valuable offensive tools that were just as effective if you got consistent with them. His playstyle has favored the offensive pressure system and it works out fairly well because a lot of players really enjoy the character's playstyle. They didn't change how he played but chose what worked and stuck to it and improved it in later games. Ragna has always played super rush down and despite getting different moves he still maintained his good moves. Like standing medium is always going to be a solid combo starter.

Mechanically there are lots of changes to the guard system/Burst system/Meter but character moves don't actually become significantly different between iterations or change all that much unless the move had serious difficulty balancing around. Marth Fair didn't have that, it was mainly a good combo move and was part of his bread and butter for Ken combos. I still get hyped for them because it requires good reading of DI and the setup is actually harder now since people know how to get out of it. And even then when you take out a move's functionality you replace it with something. Jin lost air Ice car in Chrono Phantasma but in exchange he got a different move that is a great air combo ender and a TK'able move for faster overheads.

Most fighting games add to the characters but don't change the playstyle completely. They more of like to change some details and have them be competitive. Marvel went to a 4 button system like anime fighters. Blazblue worked around with the guard system to make offense really valuable so that the opponent couldn't just block and punish the whole time.

 

[Deleted member]

Hello every body what are we talking about today :D

 

[Shiliski]

Not in general. For Blazblue the biggest change I can think of is Jin from the first blazblue game compared to what he turned into later. In the first game the general dominant playstyle for him was to be really defensive and control area since that is how all the good characters played in that game. But he had plenty of odd but valuable offensive tools that were just as effective if you got consistent with them. His playstyle has favored the offensive pressure system and it works out fairly well because a lot of players really enjoy the character's playstyle. They didn't change how he played but chose what worked and stuck to it and improved it in later games. Ragna has always played super rush down and despite getting different moves he still maintained his good moves. Like standing medium is always going to be a solid combo starter.

Mechanically there are lots of changes to the guard system/Burst system/Meter but character moves don't actually become significantly different between iterations or change all that much unless the move had serious difficulty balancing around. Marth Fair didn't have that, it was mainly a good combo move and was part of his bread and butter for Ken combos. I still get hyped for them because it requires good reading of DI and the setup is actually harder now since people know how to get out of it. And even then when you take out a move's functionality you replace it with something. Jin lost air Ice car in Chrono Phantasma but in exchange he got a different move that is a great air combo ender and a TK'able move for faster overheads.

Most fighting games add to the characters but don't change the playstyle completely. They more of like to change some details and have them be competitive. Marvel went to a 4 button system like anime fighters. Blazblue worked around with the guard system to make offense really valuable so that the opponent couldn't just block and punish the whole time.

I also recall Arakune got changed mechanically. Mostly it was his curse mechanic. Bang's nails worked differently between CT and CS. BlazBlue also did the "give the moveset to another character" with the Nu/Lambda thing, but I don't recall many big changes. Though, like you said, they were more mechanical changes than playstyle changes.

Hello every body what are we talking about today :D

Not the topic, that's for sure.

 

[Renji64]

Then play Fox or Sheik. Easy enough. Not all characters use low-lag aerials for pressure.

Smash 4 fox seems terrible and i plan on playing shiek.

If that's true, isn't that troubling? The fact that he needed other people to tell him to remove something so blatantly bad? It's like a chef needing someone to tell him that the pasta he's making does not need mustard on it.

Thanks sakurai for removing something you put into to ruin the enjoyment of people who aren't playing the game casually. #GOAT

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Smash 4 fox seems terrible and i plan on playing shiek.

Thanks sakurai for removing something you put into to ruin the enjoyment of people who aren't playing the game casually. #GOAT

Smash 4 Fox looks good enough to me. Low landing lag or auto-cancelling on every aerial, and great recovery now that Fox Illusion no longer puts him in helpless fall. Only "terrible" thing about him is the lack of laser cancelling, and that his Reflector can no longer be abused as a frame 1 attack that cancels into aerial combos for days. Oh, and that his UAir and USmash might be nerfed a little bit, except he still gets early kills due to being able to combo really easily, and everyone else's kill moves looked nerfed in the demo with the exception of Bowser. FSmash looks faster, too.

Also why does everyone spell Sheik's name wrong?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Also why does everyone spell Sheik's name wrong?

Because "I before E except after C" is the most fraudulent "rule" of the English language EVER.

 

[Johnknight1]

Um, I'm just going to assume you are from America with this post, but you don't exactly get to plug "capitalism" as a means to support your argument when your economy is so far in the toilet as a result of your brilliant capitalism.

What was it like, 1% of the entire country (USA) owns 70% of the total existent wealth?

Puh-lease.

It's actually 1% owns 30% of the privately owned US Dollars and 10% owns 70-something%. That's what happens in a market where the stock market and owning things is a gigantic thing in an economy. You'll find the same thing is true in major 1st world countries like Japan, the UK, and Sweden. It is, in a sense, a system that rewards smart risk-taking.

I dunno, Ken Comboing is such bread and butter Marth stuff nowadays that I don't get excited when I see it. I like being surprised I guess, as a viewer anyway, as a player I'll take whatever I can get. When I see unsual and creative ways of transitioning into Fsmash or Dair like this

that's when I get hyped.

For what it's worth, I find it hard to believe that Lucina will satisfy old Marth mains. Her lack of a tip-sweetspot inherently makes her have a very different playstyle to both incarnations of "old Marth".

Eh, I should have been more expansive and inclusive.

The whole juggle game, particularly involving the forward air, is insanely hype. And yet, it's all gone, especially with the forward air.

And nah, the Ken combo is not easy, and although it might not be as flashy, is hard to get, especially against an opponent who DI's really well.

===

As for Lucina, I think she'll be a fan favorite of fans who wanted Marth to meet Fox. After all, instead of being about the tipper, it will be about the timing.

(because attacks in Smash have either one or the other or neither, but never both).

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Because "I before E except after C" is the most fraudulent "rule" of the English language EVER.

But spelling it wrong trips your browser's spellcheck, while spelling it correctly doesn't! So I don't get it.

 

[Retroend]

Change is scary.

It's one thing to change a few properties of moves or to nerf/buff a character but it's completely different when you change the fighting style of that said character. It really isolate dedicated Marth mains and in a way it's like Marth isn't going to be in smash4.

edit: ****, double post. I'm sorry mods t.t I swear this is my first in possibly 3+ years.

but its bound to happen. everything changes, just like in real life. nothing stays the same forever and its no different for video games (unless you mod it, which seriously just shows people refuse to try new things and in a way holding back the originality of the game from developing.) sakurai may be trying to implement new playstyles for old characters. shoot just look at bowser. it seems that his playstyle is much more aggressive than it was in brawl. changes are going to happen, whether its a nerf/buff or a new playstyle, it up to us to develop to these changes and evolve them withing the originality of the game. for me that's what makes smash bros feel fresh. differences are never always a bad thing, it's just something people need to accept and adapt to. its the only way to make the meta grow and take it in a new direction.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

But spelling it wrong trips your browser's spellcheck, while spelling it correctly doesn't! So I don't get it.

Both Sheik and Shiek trip my browser's spellcheck. I mean, Lucina, Rosalina, Samus, Marth, Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, Greninja, etc all set off my spellcheck. I don't really expect it to know Pokemon names, but why doesn't it know Rosalina?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Both Sheik and Shiek trip my browser's spellcheck. I mean, Lucina, Rosalina, Samus, Marth, Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, Greninja, etc all set off my spellcheck. I don't really expect it to know Pokemon names, but why doesn't it know Rosalina?

Sheik doesn't trip my Firefox's spellcheck, nor my Mac's built-in spellcheck.

And if I right-click and look up "Sheik", I get the following definition:

sheikh |SHēk, SHāk | (also sheik, shaikh, or shaykh)
noun
1 an Arab leader, in particular the chief or head of an Arab tribe, family, or village.
2 a leader in a Muslim community or organization.

 

[pupNapoleon]

If that's true, isn't that troubling? The fact that he needed other people to tell him to remove something so blatantly bad? It's like a chef needing someone to tell him that the pasta he's making does not need mustard on it.

I think what you're missing is that the chef who has the brain and balls to try mustard on pasta, is the same chef who may have first put peanut butter and chocolate together.

Any artist will tell you that zany ideas can sound farfetched, and they can be risks. A lot of the choices Sakurai has made could easily be seen as off the wall, such as the creation of this entire game. I'm pretty damn happy he makes the decisions he does. Was tripping a bad idea? Yes. However, the brain that came up with that, came up with everything else. He needed an editor, and I believe that is why he hired all these Bandai folk.

You've asserted your point on every page of this thread. I think you've either made it clearly at this point, or can just continue to yell because you want to be heard.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont think praise for the decision is an accurate description. I think its more accurately described as relief. I also dont think it has to do with tripping as a mechanic itself, so much as a Sakurai that would allow tripping to stay in the game is different than a Sakurai who removes it, and people are happy to have the Sakurai that removes it even if the removal of tripping itself isnt worth a medal.

 

[Senario]

I also recall Arakune got changed mechanically. Mostly it was his curse mechanic. Bang's nails worked differently between CT and CS. BlazBlue also did the "give the moveset to another character" with the Nu/Lambda thing, but I don't recall many big changes. Though, like you said, they were more mechanical changes than playstyle changes.



Not the topic, that's for sure.

Gotta admit though, arakune was crazy if not for zone control in the first game but unintended infinites with curse. He had to change due to infinites and curse abuses.

And being a veteran of the first game I can say i did not mind changing around Nu for Lambda because Nu was a very flawed and easy top tier character in the first game. It isnt like a fox or kokonoe situation where you have to be fairly good to get results. It was simply hard to get in and wasnt that fun to play against as you got zoned to death. I agree with changing a chars playstyle if their character design or style is flawed or overpowered. But otherwise changing them makes it feel like the character is no longer the same character. Marth had his own cool part of the cast where he has a solid ground game and a signature combo in the ken combo that isnt as easy to set up as people think.

 

[SS-bros14]

So...
What are we arguing about now?