[SA] Valhalla Smash Tournament Thread. Valhalla resumes October 1st!

[Nova]

Deal with it, Ghost's motto.

 

[swordsaint]

Brawl is a campy game, deal with it, just because certain characters can camp well on it doesn't mean it should be banned.

Same with Norfair.

RC is completely non-random, and doesn't take that much effort to learn the timing of the stage.
And it's definitely not an instant-win for MK, many characters have RC as their counter-pick against him!

PS2 is legit, most balanced stage in the game.

The biggest problem bone, is that all these stages that are more or less considered 'borderline' give heavy advantages to only a small percentage of the cast. But these stages give very similar advantages, meaning all these borderline stages are basically counterpicks for similar characters.

so you add a few stages 5-6 maybe, idk the exact number. 5-6 or 6 stages that will only benefit a few characters. you're giving like 5% of the cast a ridiculous amount of counterpicks and adding NOTHING for the rest of the cast. You're unnecessarily nerfing a large majority of the cast by BREAKING the counterpick system in the favour of only a few characters. If you add these 5/6 stages along with the 4 or so stages that are already considered counterpicks for these characters, you're nullifying the point of their opponents BANNING a stage because regardless of their ban, they're going to be taken to any number of other stages that give the same advantage.

The point of stage list, counterpick and ban system is to create balance between characters. Not so much so mk and ganon become even, but in a way that there is diversity in stage selection but nothing that DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF THE SYSTEM.

which is to try and give each character equivalent counterpicks. It will never 100% be possible, but in trying to do so we'll be preventing some characters from losing all viability what so ever.

 

[Ghostbone]

The biggest problem bone, is that all these stages that are more or less considered 'borderline' give heavy advantages to only a small percentage of the cast. But these stages give very similar advantages, meaning all these borderline stages are basically counterpicks for similar characters.

so you add a few stages 5-6 maybe, idk the exact number. 5-6 or 6 stages that will only benefit a few characters. you're giving like 5% of the cast a ridiculous amount of counterpicks and adding NOTHING for the rest of the cast. You're unnecessarily nerfing a large majority of the cast by BREAKING the counterpick system in the favour of only a few characters. If you add these 5/6 stages along with the 4 or so stages that are already considered counterpicks for these characters, you're nullifying the point of their opponents BANNING a stage because regardless of their ban, they're going to be taken to any number of other stages that give the same advantage.

The point of stage list, counterpick and ban system is to create balance between characters. Not so much so mk and ganon become even, but in a way that there is diversity in stage selection but nothing that DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF THE SYSTEM.

which is to try and give each character equivalent counterpicks. It will never 100% be possible, but in trying to do so we'll be preventing some characters from losing all viability what so ever.

Umm...no.

The stage list should NEVER be made to suit certain characters.
Oh your character is only good on a few stages?
Well then you play a bad character, and we should not cater the stage list to your character.

It's a character Strength to be good on many stages, and you're basically saying
"lol i don't care, i'm going to nerf you because i don't like you, I don't care that your character beats my character on most stages, we're going to play on the few stages my character beats yours."
How the hell is that fair?

The point of a stage list is not to create balance between characters, we don't ban stages because characters are too good, or get massive advantages on them.
Otherwise you would have to ban Final Destination as well.
And how do you define when one stage gives too much of an advantage to certain characters?
G&W-IC is like 80-20 IC on FD, while on RC it would be like 60-40 G&W.
Again, ban FD please?

We do not cater the stagelist to certain characters, unless every matchup literally becomes 100-0 for that character. We develop the stagelist and let the meta-game develop from there.

You're also grossly over-estimating the amount of counter-picks the characters get.
Are you saying LM is a good counterpick for MK? maybe, but I doubt it's better than delfino.
Wario? Definitely not, he gets screwed over by the ceiling because of his air release.
No character has more than 3 "Must ban against" stages, so 3 bans per set would solve the problem, and create more balanced stages for the match-up.
I mean, you ban Brinstar, Norfair (both of which MK has been shown to be beatable on, and MK is the main offender is regards to stages) and RC. What does MK counter-pick you to now? Delfino pretty much.

What about DP? What character really counter-picks here?
I mean it's a good counter-pick for Captain Falcon.
But other characters have much better stages.

Oh, and if the point of the counter-pick system is to really make as many characters as viable as possible, as you claim it is.
Then can Ganon automatically play every game on Norfair or Pirate Ship?
He'd be a lot more viable.

The thing is, you're choosing to arbitrarily buff and nerf certain characters for no good reason, why exactly?

 

[swordsaint]

See, you completely missed the point, partly due to your inexperience. Now I don't want to be 'cocky' here. I'm not trying to be. But I think it can somewhat be attributed to living in SA where (from my experience) only Nova and Apollo would be considered good players.

The point is that each character has equivalent stages to the others.

You say "lol i don't care, i'm going to nerf you because i don't like you, I don't care that your character beats my character on most stages, we're going to play on the few stages my character beats yours."

I say "lol i don't care, i'm going to nerf you because i don't like bad characters, I don't care that your character would lose all viability most stages, we're going to play on every stage my character beats yours."

It's basically the same thing from both sides. Which is why a more conservative list that STILL gives ALL characters suitable counterpicks is the most ideal way.

This game is about the CHARACTERS. You're getting too caught up in 'stages only' aspect when you should consider it all together, how the stages affect the characters and vice versa, including the stagelist as a whole.

Just answer me this to begin with, don't even reply to the above because I'm not finished yet, but depending on how you answer will depend on the rest of response.

Is Falco a good character to you? Is Diddy a good character to you?

edit: screw it, cbf. it's obvious nothing will change your mind.

 

[zApollo]

Naww, this was really becoming a good discussion. I'll contribute once I've given some though to our current stagelist.

 

[Ghostbone]

Falco and Diddy are definitely good characters, so why exactly should we cater the stage list to them to buff them? Or to nerf characters like G&W and Wario?
I don't get it :/

Which is exactly what you're doing when banning stages like Norfair or RC.

Then there's stages like PS2 which don't favor any character...and people still ban the stage -_-.

Also, don't bring up my inexperience, that has nothing to do with the debate.
(and I'm not that bad....)

 

[zApollo]

Also, don't bring up my inexperience, that has nothing to do with the debate.
(and I'm not that bad....)

Generally everyone ignores scoot's opinion on skill levels, so don't worry about that.

 

[swordsaint]

Where and when does experience have anything to do with skill? For all I know Ghost is good, but he's still rather new, meaning he hasn't had the time to fully develop and play a large variety of good players, who use a large variety of good characters. I'm saying this affects his opinion. Which I'm not saying is wrong either, I'm just saying i disagree with it.

I'll use an example. Patv is an amazing newcomer to the NSW scene, but he's still inexperienced.

 

[Ghostbone]

-sigh-

Except I'm not even arguing for my opinion, I'm arguing against trying to arbitrarily buff and nerf certain characters, and against banning stages because "we don't like it".

 

[Eagle]

If it were up to me it would be final destination only.

Spoiler

I don't care if I get ***** by high tiers on it, it's better than being ***** on a stage like RC.

 

[Ghostbone]

why FD?

That's like....the most boring stage in the game.......
I would rather Delfino or PS2

 

[Eagle]

That's exactly what I like about it. It's just a block. Now it's just a fight to death.

 

[Ghostbone]

Same with every stage?

 

[Eagle]

I meant a fight to the death without any interference from lava, falling platforms, etc.

 

[Ghostbone]

But FD's a fight to the death with the limitation of no platforms.
That's a pretty big interference.

 

[Nova]

PS1 & Halberd > everything.

 

[Eagle]

Interference for who?

 

[Ghostbone]

Everyone, having no platforms greatly limits many characters options, some to a lesser extent than others.
Also, do you really want to face IC on FD?

 

[zApollo]

Where and when does experience have anything to do with skill? Which I'm not saying is wrong either, I'm just saying i disagree with it.

I believe experience is a huuuge factor of skill. Yes, taking the time to practice ATs and spacing will develop your playstyle, but can only take you so far with CPUs or a friend who isn't that great. My experience in interstate tournaments and annual events here were pivotal to my development, I always went back with a better grasp of the game and thus boosting my 'skill'.

For all I know Ghost is good, but he's still rather new, meaning he hasn't had the time to fully develop and play a large variety of good players, who use a large variety of good characters. I'm saying this affects his opinion.

Can't argue with that, its funny though, over half of SA's better players have only just picked up the tourney scene a few months ago and are already exceedingly better than most who've played for almost 3 years.

 

[Eagle]

Everyone, having no platforms greatly limits many characters options, some to a lesser extent than others.
Also, do you really want to face IC on FD?

Okay. Battlefield and Final Destination. Just for you, Ghost.

 

[Ghostbone]

Naww, but then there's no platform cancelling.

FD and Lylat

 

[Eagle]

Lylat! Gross.

You can pick from Battlefield, Smashville and Yoshi's Island.

 

[Ghostbone]

But they're all so dam boring.

 

[Eagle]

The stage is boring if you just have a stage. But the fights are much more interesting.

 

[Ghostbone]

Fights, Interesting, Brawl?
definitely not. XD

But fights are interesting on any stage anyway.

 

[Eagle]

I'm not interested in fighting on Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well that's you

 

[swordsaint]

most people arent interested in fighting on these stages. The only people who want to fight on these stages are players who use characters that can abuse them. even then, they only do it because it works and not because its fun.

 

[Eagle]

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ah, so finally you've gone to the "Only people who can play on these stages want them legal" argument.

You really think that's a reason to ban them?

And what does fun have to do with a competitive ruleset? I don't find D3's infinite fun, but the idea is to play to win, so I'll sure as hell do it.
(sorry Eagle )

Also, define abusing the stage please.
I'm going to bet it's just using a strategy you don't like.

 

[zApollo]

most people arent interested in fighting on these stages. The only people who want to fight on these stages are players who use characters that can abuse them. even then, they only do it because it works and not because its fun.

Well most people haven't banned FD, isn't that funny.

 

[Leisha]

-sighhh-

10 sighs

 

[Nova]

more like 30000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 sighs
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

god stages too much

(Verse 1
Swimming pool limousines (come on let's do it)
Come on let's cause a scene (come on let's do it)
Cigar in the caviar (come on let's do it)
I'm pissin' in the Dom Pérignon (come on let's do it)
Now, come on lets do it
We're gonna do it now
Come on let's do it
Come on let's do this

(Chours
Woah oh oh
There's a party at a rich dude's house
Woah oh oh
There's a party at a rich dude's house
If ya wanna go
Then ya know oh
We're gonna fight til we do it right
So let's woah oh oh
Tonight

(Verse 2
No we're not on the list (come on let's do it)
No we don't give a **** (come on let's do it)
Dance til your pants come off (come on get naked)
Party til the break of dawn (come on let's do it)
Now, come on lets do it
Come on, come on, come on

(Chours
Woah oh oh
There's a party at a rich dude's house
Woah oh oh
There's a party at a rich dude's house
If ya wanna go then ya now oh
We're gonna fight till we do it right
So let's woah oh oh
Tonight

(Verse
I wake up in the front yard
(We don't care)
White stain on the sofa
(We don't care)
I threw up in the closet
And I don't care
Cause the sun is coming up
And oh my god I think I'm still ****ed up
Get ****ed up
Where's my coat?... Where?

(Chours
There's a party at a rich dude's house
There's a party at a rich dude's house

Woah oh oh
There's a party at a rich dude's house
Woah oh oh
There's a party at a rich dude's house
If you wanna go then you know
We're gonna fight til we do it right
So lets woah oh oh
Tonight

 

[Leisha]

I think i just gave birth to this thang

 

[ViVa]

Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp.

 

[Ghostbone]

Trolling got in the way of the discussion :/

 

[swordsaint]

Ah, so finally you've gone to the "Only people who can play on these stages want them legal" argument.

You really think that's a reason to ban them?

And what does fun have to do with a competitive ruleset? I don't find D3's infinite fun, but the idea is to play to win, so I'll sure as hell do it.
(sorry Eagle )

Also, define abusing the stage please.
I'm going to bet it's just using a strategy you don't like.

that wasnt an argument for banning them at all. Also don't imply that you were expecting it, that's so very arrogant.

and they're not about strategy's people just don't like, they're about strategies that people don't like because they're broken. a broken strategy subtracts from the metagame by removing the viability of other characters and strategies. And when you subtract from the metagame, the game becomes less deep.

 

[Splice]

A Broken Strategy subtracts from the metagame by Removing the viability of other characters and strategies to an inappropriate extent, and is not able to be dealt with that well by any other strategies or characters*

Do you agree with my correction or not Scott I'm just checking

ps. inappropriate extent is subjective but w/e

 

[swordsaint]

It's basically what I said btu yeah you're right.

 

[Ghostbone]

So what are the broken strategies on those stages then?

Keep in mind that a broken tactic is unbeatable.