Ruleset changes at Apex 2015

[The Star King]

star king doesnt even play anymore get this noob out of here

I played today.

Get straight embarrassed you lil *****

 

[Sedda]

stfu ill rek you

if we end up in the same pool at apex ill make sure to lose early so that i dont have to embarrass your dumbass on stream

 

[pidgezero_one]

I would like to point out I'm very against using any gameshark stages in tournament. We shouldn't be punishing players who don't want/don't know about gamesharks by forcing them to play on stages they don't have readily available to them when they practice on their own.

agree with this, interestingly enough im also heavily in the minority in the brawl community when i say i'm against making any game modifications the tournament standard ¯\(°_o)/¯

gentleman's rule to gs stages should be legit though

 

[Han Solo]

stfu ill rek you

if we end up in the same pool at apex ill make sure to lose early so that i dont have to embarrass your ******* on stream

As if Sedda is noteworthy enough to be on stream lol

 

[Sedda]

As if Sedda is noteworthy enough to be on stream lol

do jokes really fly over your head that easily or are you just taking notes from Karajan's troll post techniques?

everybody here knows I'm ****ing atrocious at this game

 

[KeroKeroppi]

i don't think you're atrocious at this game sedda <3

 

[Mr Bushido]

approximately, thus far:

1 person out of 3 prefers 4 stocks over 5


4 people out of 10 want Dreamland only


4 people out of 5 prefer a timer over none




where Pika is the change and Kirby the current standard

 

[Sedda]

i don't think you're atrocious at this game sedda <3

you havent played me lmao

 

[clubbadubba]

I played today.

Get straight embarrassed you lil *****

Soooo does this mean you're ready to get back in the saddle and come play console with me again/

 

[Beesy]

I bet we could make a great side-betting system for placements? ie 5$ clubba places higher than Mr. Bushido, or 10$ Tacos makes top 8, or such. Sounds fun to me anyway...

 

[Mr Bushido]

Top8:
1. Sedda
2. Clubbadubba
3. TR3G The Z
4. Koro****odjh KeroKeroppi
5. Isai
6. Superboofman
7. Moyashi
8. TR3G Fays

 

[Olikus]

1.olikus
2. who cares about the rest

 

[The Star King]

Soooo does this mean you're ready to get back in the saddle and come play console with me again/

yeah man

pretty sure I said so a couple weeks ago

 

[KeroKeroppi]

yeah man

pretty sure I said so a couple weeks ago

i never thought i'd be able to say this to you

but i'm really digging that new avy

 

[Mr Bushido]

Oh heey, i might as well bring this up in here: who are you guys' favorite commentators?

This is my tier list:

S: jimmyjoe, battlecow, LD, unreal
A: han solo, greginator, karajan, kerokeroppi, pete
B: bloodpeach, rob stone, stranded, clubbadubba

everyone else is just bad or not memorable IMO

 

[Cobrevolution]

i am so insulted

 

[SmasherEKZ74]

This thread is absolute garbage.

OFFICIAL RULESET FOR SMASH64 (still hasn't ****ing changed)

First stage, Hyrule, Loser Picks. Sector Z banned
5 Stocks no Timer no Cheat Codes
No Recovery Items, No PokeBalls, No Stars.

OFFICIAL TIER LIST OF PLAYERS

Smasherx74
Kaillera
SmashBoards
Europe

Everyone who doesn't agree can go **** them self.

 

[Sedda]

Top8:
1. Sedda
2. Clubbadubba
3. TR3G The Z
4. Koro****odjh KeroKeroppi
5. Isai
6. Superboofman
7. Moyashi
8. TR3G Fays

damn z why r u so mean to me

i can barely take stocks from you in friendlies

 

[clubbadubba]

Oh heey, i might as well bring this up in here: who are you guys' favorite commentators?

This is my tier list:

S: jimmyjoe, battlecow, LD, unreal
A: han solo, greginator, karajan, kerokeroppi, pete
B: bloodpeach, rob stone, stranded, clubbadubba

everyone else is just bad or not memorable IMO

looks like i need to jump back on the mic and jog your memory a bit.

star king i'll hit you up, plan on next thursday

 

[Olikus]

My Commentary list

S: LD, han solo, clubba
A: greginator, jimmyjoe, battlecow, nintendude
B: bloodpeach, rob stone, pete, kero

battlecow is S tier 90 percent of the time, but I cant stand when he yells YOU ****ED UP SO BAAAAAD 100 times in a row. Once is enough. Thats the main reason he got bumped to A-tier.

This doesnt aply to all of the commentators obviously, but I think the main problem with many of the commentators are 2 things.

1. Not enough hype.

2. Talk way too long about a subject, while lots of thing are happening in the match, that doesnt get commentated.

And the worst is when point 1 and 2 are combined. The best horror example I can show is this match :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcsPZFpsi7w

Dexter vs tacos LF pool 1 at Apex 2014. Which is still to this day one of the best, most nailbiting highlevelmatches I have ever seen. And the commentators do hardly talk about play by play in the entire set. I was falling of my chair of excitment, and i watched it again on youtube, I felt like they hardly even paid attention to the match. How can you not be more hyped about a match like that.

Some examples: 2:05 really cool combo, talks about isais caracther choise.

3:05 again a really cool combo (double egg to upair WTF) talks 40 seconds nonstop about Prince.

I do apologise If I came off to harsh as I both think Pete and jimmyjoe are talented commentators in other matches, and allso really nice guys. And this stuff applyes to many of the other commentators in certain situtiations as well, but this was the best example that came to mind as I am writing this post. I hope I see them continue to commentate in the future, but pls(and this goes out to everyone) Dont let something like this happen again so late in bracket at such a big event as Apex.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

it be great if commentators didnt make so many misleading or false statements or mix up the names of players

 

[Mr Bushido]

ya that be cool

 

[Studstill]

hyrule is bad because its not symmetric
dreamland is the most symmetric stage
pikachu is 1000x better on hyrule than on dreamland

Where is this text you keep alluding to that definitively states that "symmetry" has any bearing on anything?
And the pikachu 1000X logic only works if you have a timer; self-fulfilling.

There is always the option to gentleman.

So let`s make a bad system of rules and 'fix' it by letting players ignore specific rules if they agree?
This kind of thinking (in a recent tournament) led to one player thinking it was OK to tell the other one
"Sure I`ll play on Hyrule, but you can only play Falcon."
Hyrule MUST be allowed as legal stage at Apex. Let`s start this off correctly, with transparency.
Who or whom is responsible for declaring the rules?
Strife?
Nintendude?
Steeeeeeve?
There should be a community wide, ACTUAL vote, in a community of this size I actually believe we don`t need a 'council' or 'backroom'. We could literally just count all the votes and do majority rules. If that isn`t possible, as it is clearly preferable, then we should have as large of a vote as possible on who those people should be who are making the decisions.
This is MY game. Everyone in here can say that with the same authority and weight.

 

[Studstill]

you should actually try playing against a bunch of campy pikas on nothing but hyrule for a week straight.

hyrule ****ing sucks


it literally made boomfan quit for like a month
he would still be retired from ssb64 if i didnt talk him out of it

No, dude, again, Hyrule isn`t the problem, the "campy pikas" are the problem. Also, I`m fully opposed to timers of any kind, but if this kind of cancer is allowed to creep into what is a timerless game (stock mode right?) then it would be an absolute travesty if a timer decided any match after pools.
Further, this argument that "time constraints" is the kind of stuff that lowers the game. It takes as long as it takes. They don`t go removing innings from baseball because some people who don`t really even like baseball want a shorter game. And this is what I get the sense of reading these things, that the DL only bunch doesnt actually like Super Smash Bros 64 at all, they like a very small, specific game called "3 plats, not a lot of space, and two characters" which to be sure, has it`s merits, but not enough to remove almost the entirety of the game.

 

[clubbadubba]

hyrule sucks

 

[SheerMadness]

Wait an 8 minute timer is on the current Apex rule set???

Or am I reading the *current/change thing wrong?

EDIT: Oh nvm read the 1st post.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Hyrule isn`t the problem, the "campy pikas" are the problem.

what helps the "campy pikas" in acting that way?

There should be a community wide, ACTUAL vote

only if you weigh the votes.

nintendude, chain ace, stef, any console TO really - their votes should count for more.
ordinary players' votes should count as is.
players who vote but do not go to events (nova, frog, mint, etcetc) should have no say.

we should have as large of a vote as possible on who those people should be who are making the decisions.

how about we compromise and agree that whoever has been actively to'ing for years should do most of the decision making. with input from the community, yes, but also mindful of the event's limits.

which is pretty much what has been occurring.


now, i'm not one who says the way everything is run is perfect and should not be changed. i tried my best to get RR pools at apex, i did everything i could to get people to bring setups, to have us get good stream time, to make the problems we experience known to the people who are in charge, etcetcetc. i am aware that some things need to be sacrificed for the greater good, but i am also aware that some things shouldn't be considered a "sacrifice." hyrule is one of those things.

fact of the matter is, you are not a person who has been involved in the scene at an organizational level. you have not done anything related to TO'ing besides conducting an extremely small number of online events with an extremely small number of participants. you do not know how these things work internally. and you consistently sound like you think you know better than those who HAVE been involved and HAVE been doing these things for many years.

and if you want proof of that, it's right here with this silly statement:

They don`t go removing innings from baseball because some people who don`t really even like baseball want a shorter game.

no, they don't. because the stadium doesn't close, unlike venues. the owners WANT people to be there spending money and such. that is not the case at venues. there are people who have jobs and have to go home and eat and sleep. there are other factors at play than "some people want it to be shorter."

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think I was once described as "the only TO who has ever provided a sensible reason for having hyrule legal"

 

[Fireblaster]

Who or whom is responsible for declaring the rules?
Strife?
Nintendude?
Steeeeeeve?

nintendude, chain-ace, and sensei were responsible in helping create the apex 2014 ruleset we use now. They were the only TO's back then so with input from the community, valuing some players' opinions more than others, they were able to create the most optimal ruleset back then.

There should be a community wide, ACTUAL vote, in a community of this size I actually believe we don`t need a 'council' or 'backroom'. We could literally just count all the votes and do majority rules. If that isn`t possible, as it is clearly preferable, then we should have as large of a vote as possible on who those people should be who are making the decisions.
This is MY game. Everyone in here can say that with the same authority and weight.

This is a bad idea because there are a lot of people who don't even attend tournaments or only play online. Why should their opinion matter? There are also a lot of bad players like you who don't quite understand the game and make their decisions based off of conjecture and misinformation.

No, dude, again, Hyrule isn`t the problem, the "campy pikas" are the problem.

Yes, clearly there is no problem with Hyrule.

Obviously campy pikas are the problem.

Also, I`m fully opposed to timers of any kind, but if this kind of cancer is allowed to creep into what is a timerless game (stock mode right?) then it would be an absolute travesty if a timer decided any match after pools.
Further, this argument that "time constraints" is the kind of stuff that lowers the game. It takes as long as it takes. They don`t go removing innings from baseball because some people who don`t really even like baseball want a shorter game.

You obviously don't go to tournaments because you show a clear lack of understanding that time constraints are one of the most important aspects of a tournament. The tournament that Kabal went to this sunday? He had to forfeit and accept a 4th place spot because he had to leave since he had a long drive home and it was getting late. Had the tournament run faster it would have been more on time and he wouldn't have needed to forfeit.

And there is nothing wrong with a game ending in timeout. Melee uses stock with timer. Brawl and project M use stock with timer. Every fighting game in existence uses a timer. SSB64 isn't a special game that gets excused from using a timer in tournaments.

And this is what I get the sense of reading these things, that the DL only bunch doesnt actually like Super Smash Bros 64 at all, they like a very small, specific game called "3 plats, not a lot of space, and two characters" which to be sure, has it`s merits, but not enough to remove almost the entirety of the game.

SSB64 is a very old and broken mess of a game. It's a game that was clearly made with the intent of a party game and not something fit for competition. As a result, there are many things in this game are not fit or viable for competition. Over time the community that plays this game has been able to deduce what works and what doesn't and has removed anything that isn't fit for tournaments.

Yes a lot of content has to be removed from the game in order for this game to be able to work in tournaments and competition for money and it's unfortunate that this game doesn't have more tournament viable content like its sequels. But like Thomas Hobson said, "Take it or leave it"

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Where is this text you keep alluding to that definitively states that "symmetry" has any bearing on anything?

its pretty self evident. stages that are not symmetric give advantages to players based on their starting and current positions, and can be exploited as a valid strategy to defeat the opponent. It only makes sense to have people start matches on an equal, symmetric plane.

Go back and watch all the boom matches from peru. He always tried to pick 3rd port because it put him right below the platforms at the start which made it easier to get up them faster in case an opponent tried to go up there first. And any competent smash player knows that for most characters the top platform of hyrule is the most advantageous spot. So who decides what player gets which port if hyrule is a legal stage?

More evidence a symmetric playing field is desired between humans engaging in competition:
1 v 1:
boxing - symmetric ring
mma - symmetric octagon
judo - symmetric ring
sumo - symmetric ring
fencing - symmetric floor
wrestling - symmetric mat
tennis - symmetric court
pingpong - symmetric table
squash - symmetric court
racquetball - symmetric court
badminton - symmetric court

team sports:
soccer - symmetric field
cricket - symmetric field
basketball - symmetric court
hockey - symmetric rink (or field)
volleyball - symmetric court
pingpong - symmetric table
tennis - symmetric court
baseball - symmetric field
football - symmetric field
rugby - symmetric field
handball - symmetric court
waterpolo - symmetric pool

Almost any sport that has 2 parties that are trying to accomplish the same objective at the same time play on a symmetric playing field.
( same time = not a turn based game )

And the pikachu 1000X logic only works if you have a timer; self-fulfilling.

actually no, pika is worse on hyrule with a timer because it becomes forced to make bad approaches. pika with no timer dominates hyrule for a myriad of reasons evident to any competent smash player.

There should be a community wide, ACTUAL vote, in a community of this size I actually believe we don`t need a 'council' or 'backroom'. We could literally just count all the votes and do majority rules.

Community wide?? I have 200+ votes from the japanese that you shouldnt forget to count: 4 stocks, dreamland only.

 

[Studstill]

Steve, bro, you`re off your game today.
The first point is ridiculous. Unless you guys have decided 4 stocks is too long and we`re going to one. Or first hit. Otherwise,
"players based on their starting and current positions, and can be exploited as a valid strategy to defeat the opponent"
is negligible and thus irrelevant and the alleged fact that Boom was so concerned about which port, in a strategic sense...really?
Your argument style is strange: Am I supposed to list off all the myriad forms of competition that don`t have equality on many scales, in fact most of what you mentioned...nvm, lol, that point is just silly and you know it, but I lolled for real at your html "help" the other thread. :D

Secondly,
My real problem with the timer is I don`t see it solving anything other than unending games, and I don`t see any of those.
"Timers force bad approaches" is both false (You`re never forced by any thing other than lack of skill to make a bad approach) and slightly off target of the point I was making, which was that timers will create a FAR easier to acheive win condition and break the game. Worst tournamnet ever. I cannot believe we`re even discussing a timer, this is ridiculous. Just play timed mode. Why play stock? This pretense is INSANE. Seriously, give me a rational explanation of the difference between TIMED and TIMERED STOCK!


Thirdly,
I don`t care what the Japanese do outside of me fanboy styling on josuke of course. I was referencing the NA, or possibly more accurately NNA people. They play a different game, dude.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Seriously, give me a rational explanation of the difference between TIMED and TIMERED STOCK!

timed ends when the countdown reaches 0 and is based off points

timed stock ends when the last stock is taken and INFORMS you of the victor in case of a suicide combo, dbz trade, double star ko, etcetc. big difference.

this is why we SD in 12cb's, because playing one stock out of five can lead to an uncertain ending.

 

[Studstill]

What. The. Heck.

timed stock ends when the last stock is taken and INFORMS you of the victor in case of a suicide combo, dbz trade, double star ko, etcetc. big difference.[/quote

 

[Cobrevolution]

well, potentially ends. if 5 stocks are taken in a 5 stock timed match before the timer runs out, you know for certain who the victor is.

if 5 stocks are taken in an infinite stock timed match, you don't know who won if there was a trade, or an SD off screen dair, etcetc.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Spoiler: section A

Your argument style is strange: Am I supposed to list off all the myriad forms of competition that don`t have equality on many scales, in fact most of what you mentioned...nvm, lol, that point is just silly and you know it, but I lolled for real at your html "help" the other thread. :D

Dude "equality" is not what we are talking about. We are talking about symmetry. 2 different things.
"many scales" isn't what we are talking about either. smash isnt symmetric on many scales either, cause people can pick different characters. What we are actually talking about is the playing field. Also known as the "stage"

Almost any sport that has 2 parties that are trying to accomplish the same objective at the same time play on a symmetric playing field.

Studstill, all you are doing is dismissing my point by not addressing it correctly (see above). If you want to actually form an argument against my examples, you need to find as many sports that satisfy both of the following:
(A) 2 parties that are trying to accomplish the same objective at the same time (not turn based sports)
(B) They play on a non-symmetric field or court

Do you understand why people who are fencing stand on flat ground and not a sloped ground where one player is higher than the other?

Spoiler: section B

Seriously, give me a rational explanation of the difference between TIMED and TIMERED STOCK!

OK this is easy, (and thanks for showing you still dont know anything about smash bros)
In timed, when you get a kill on someone you gain +1. When you die you get -1. Lets say I am link and I get a kill on you. Then you throw my link way off the stage and i cant make it back, but i take a bomb out and hit myself with it before i enter the blast zone. What is the score?

After I killed you, i had +1 and you had -1
Me: +1
You: -1

After I died, i got -1 but you didnt get any kill, so you remain at -1
Me: 0
You: -1

Even though we died the same amount of times, The game considers me to be 1 point ahead of you.

In timed stock, if both players die the same amount of times, then the game says they have equal number of lives remaining.

If you don't see the difference here i can keep going with the example to show why its not equivalent, but anyone with an IQ of 160 should be able to understand at this point.

Spoiler: section C

Thirdly,
I don`t care what the Japanese do outside of me fanboy styling on josuke of course. I was referencing the NA, or possibly more accurately NNA people. They play a different game, dude.

Number of times studstill played at Apex: 0
Number of times ruoka has played at Apex: 2
Japanese players have played more competitive north american console tournament matches than you have, studstill (and they will get at least top 16 at apex). Since they play the same game when they come here, they should have the same say as everyone else. And the number of players in japan that dream of attending apex someday is easily more than 100

Studstill, please tell me you understand and agree about section B first.
Then address any qualms about section A
Then go ahead and argue about section C

I want to do easiest thing first, then see if you can actually make an argument as outlined in A, and then if you can get that far you can tell me why you think your opinion is worth more than a foreigners' opinion for a tournament that they actually have attended (and won)

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

Spoiler: section A

Dude "equality" is not what we are talking about. We are talking about symmetry. 2 different things.
"many scales" isn't what we are talking about either. smash isnt symmetric on many scales either, cause people can pick different characters. What we are actually talking about is the playing field. Also known as the "stage"

Almost any sport that has 2 parties that are trying to accomplish the same objective at the same time play on a symmetric playing field.

Studstill, all you are doing is dismissing my point by not addressing it correctly (see above). If you want to actually form an argument against my examples, you need to find as many sports that satisfy both of the following:
(A) 2 parties that are trying to accomplish the same objective at the same time (not turn based sports)
(B) They play on a non-symmetric field or court

Do you understand why people who are fencing stand on flat ground and not a sloped ground where one player is higher than the other?

Spoiler: section B

OK this is easy, (and thanks for showing you still dont know anything about smash bros)
In timed, when you get a kill on someone you gain +1. When you die you get -1. Lets say I am link and I get a kill on you. Then you throw my link way off the stage and i cant make it back, but i take a bomb out and hit myself with it before i enter the blast zone. What is the score?

After I killed you, i had +1 and you had -1
Me: +1
You: -1

After I died, i got -1 but you didnt get any kill, so you remain at -1
Me: 0
You: -1

Even though we died the same amount of times, The game considers me to be 1 point ahead of you.

In timed stock, if both players die the same amount of times, then the game says they have equal number of lives remaining.

If you don't see the difference here i can keep going with the example to show why its not equivalent, but anyone with an IQ of 160 should be able to understand at this point.

Spoiler: section C

Number of times studstill played at Apex: 0
Number of times ruoka has played at Apex: 2
Japanese players have played more competitive north american console tournament matches than you have, studstill (and they will get at least top 16 at apex). Since they play the same game when they come here, they should have the same say as everyone else. And the number of players in japan that dream of attending apex someday is easily more than 100

Studstill, please tell me you understand and agree about section B first.
Then address any qualms about section A
Then go ahead and argue about section C

I want to do easiest thing first, then see if you can actually make an argument as outlined in A, and then if you can get that far you can tell me why you think your opinion is worth more than a foreigners' opinion for a tournament that they actually have attended (and won)

In Dota, Hon and LOL (i think) the stage isn't symmetric. (roshan/kongor is in the top team's side, neutral creeps distribution are not equal too)
In counterstrike it's the same deal, each team should learn how to play in both positions. (i don't play it anymore, but unless something changed lately, i don't think the stages are symmetric.
There're lots of examples of games (much bigger then smash) that are played in unsymmetric stages (sometimes with a side having a advantage), so, yeah.. smash it's a EA Sport(ish) not a Sport.
I dont like this argument at all, and i honestly think DL only it's kinda boring, but i agreed with what Solo said: "If hirule is banned, then DL only is the only thing that makes sense."
Because most of the cast have a really bad time in peach's and kongo's vs pika/kirby, and i don't think this game should be even more unbalanced than already is.
( I miss foxies in tournaments tho =[ )

 

[caneut]

In Dota, Hon and LOL (i think) the stage isn't symBmetric. (roshan/kongor is in the top team's side, neutral creeps distribution are not equal too)
In counterstrike it's the same deal, each team should learn how to play in both positions. (i don't play it anymore, but unless something changed lately, i don't think the stages are symmetric.
There're lots of examples of games (much bigger then smash) that are played in unsymmetric stages (sometimes with a side having a advantage), so, yeah.. smash it's a EA Sport(ish) not a Sport.
I dont like this argument at all, and i honestly think DL only it's kinda boring, but i agreed with what Solo said: "If hirule is banned, then DL only is the only thing that makes sense."
Because most of the cast have a really bad time in peach's and kongo's vs pika/kirby, and i don't think this game should be even more unbalanced than already is.
( I miss foxies in tournaments tho =[ )

Counterstrike is symmetrical, just has two turns. Terrorists start at one side of the map and they have to plant the bomb or kill all the CounterTerrorists, who spawn on the other side of the map, and also are closer to the bomb sites to defend them. As a CT (counter terrorist), you can put further along the bomb site to gather information or get early picks against terrorists, or just hold the bomb site, or move around and be a more fluid player. Terrorists have the option to go to either bomb sites, which opens up for fakes and misdirections.

Both teams get 15 rounds on both sides. First to 16 wins. Sure a team could with 15-0 on one side, and there are extremely sided maps on counterstrike that favor one side to the other, but for the most part, all official maps are ~45-55% even.

But it's still very even. Like I said, that CT sided map where it's not uncommon to go 15-0 for the first half, the other team could just as easily make it 15-15, but the added pressure makes whoever starts CT a little bit more advantageous, which sides are determined by a neutral knife round.

 

[clubbadubba]

sounds like counterstrike is a game where players take turns trying to achieve different objectives...

 

[KeroKeroppi]

sounds like counterstrike is a game where players take turns trying to achieve different objectives...

go to the smashfest at rob's post yestercades tourney it's gonna be the goat

 

[clubbadubba]

I'm in, though I might be bored by that point from dominating all of you at the yestercades tourney