Ruleset changes at Apex 2015

[firo]

I think dreamland is a better stage for ness against most characters than hyrule.

I'm not for hyrule, but just against counterpicks. Dreamland only is a much better option than having peaches and congo, both of which are quite horrible for ness and only really help the top tiers like kirby who are good on all of them.

Peaches for sure doesn't help the lower tiers, and I don't think congo does either. If you want to help the lower tiers, in my opinion, get rid of the counterpicks. I would like to see evidence that they help.

For timing, people just need to invest in gamesharks or flash carts. As soon as we have enough gamesharks to cover all the current matches in a tournament, just put the gamesharks on the remaining n64 and require timers for every match.

 

[clubbadubba]

-5 vs 4 stocks I don't really give a **** and I don't think it matters too much, but we only have 2 major tourneys a year so **** it lets get those few extra stocks of tourney smash in. There's no pressure from anyone to get us to do it, so lets not punish ourselves.

-I was real close to making a thread like this a few days ago, except the focus was going to be on stage selection since I think its the most important thing to consider. After the last Apex/Zenith I am a STRONG proponent of Dreamland only. I see people saying that more stages takes more skill, or more stages adds variety, or helps even out the odds of certain match-ups. However, looking at Apex and Zenith, I don't think this is what happens in reality for the most part. We've seen people use counterpicks to stall until the venue closes vs low tier characters that can't maneuver the counterpick stages well (Wizzy vs Firo's Ness), and to switch to characters they haven't played in months and take advantage of extremely powerful stage gimmicks (Nintendude switching to Kirby vs Stranded). There are numerous other examples of using counterpick stages that either increased game length in a stally, non-entertaining way that is bad for the game imo, or just plain gave a cheap win to one player, or both.

I think having those counterpicks has had a much more negative impact on Apex and Zenith than a positive one imo.

-I'm a little hesitant to require timers because I think there are a LOT of ways to waste time in this game. Planking, for example, is pretty tough to challenge in a lot of match-ups, and I would hate to see that and stuff like it have a significant impact on the tournaments. 8 min plus matches shouldn't happen either though. Tough call, but voting no.

 

[Han Solo]

If Hyrule isn't legal, then Dreamland-only is the only thing that makes sense.

 

[Sedda]

even though Hyrule is the best stage forever and ever, it doesn't really belong in tournament simply due to the time constraints + ultra tryhard mode.

it pains me to know that we dont have multiple good stages, but DL only makes sense.

i'd still want gentleman rules to apply (if i run into jimmyjoe in bracket, im sure we'd love to play on hyrule instead of DL) + timer by request with any stage other than dreamland... thoI can see how that wouldnt be desirable when you can just say DL only so that a TO doesnt have to worry about anything extra

Hyrule, I'll love you forever. I'll still bring a couple of banners. February is still HYRULE AWARENESS MONTH.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Congo should remain, because it actually helps the lower tiers, as "THE Z" is horribly misinformed. Keep counterpicks.

disprove me, boy

 

[MrMarbles]

you would def still need a timer for dreamland as well

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Congo should remain, because it actually helps the lower tiers.

DK would like a word with you

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Hyrule, I'll love you forever.

you should actually try playing against a bunch of campy pikas on nothing but hyrule for a week straight.

hyrule ****ing sucks


it literally made boomfan quit for like a month
he would still be retired from ssb64 if i didnt talk him out of it

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

wizzrobe why are you ****ing viewing this thread its a school night and its almost 3:00am

 

[Cobrevolution]

congo is objectively worse than DL

i would not MIND a DL only ruleset

 

[pidgezero_one]

talk him out of it

interesting choice of words

 

[Nintendude]

Dreamland only is sounding pretty appealing.

 

[Shears]

As cobr said, timer implementation needs to be uniform. As marbles said, smooth timer implementation is near impossible. For that, timers should not exist.

Marbles is over complicating the timer implementation. My phone when I put a timer on never goes black, and I imagine most timers on most phones work the same way. As far as battery dying, I don't think this is as big of a deal. There will always be two people at the setup, its very likely at least one has a phone with good battery life. Especially considering most matches are afternoon and not late night, batteries will be charged and fresh. For streamed matches, gamesharks can be acquired which aren't too expensive and easy to carry around and setup. People complain about the community not growing enough or needs to be streamed better or people need to step up and make things work and improve the community and the viewing experience and the competitiveness and all stalling problems need to be resolved, but no one is willing to buy a $10 gameshark to add to the community? Does anyone want to actually solve these problems or does everyone like having them because it gives them something to ***** about?

**** you guys, I'm buying a gameshark and bringing it to Apex and if you play on my console then you're using a timer whether you like it or not. Impossible implementation problem solved.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

I tried the timer rule on my flashcart in peru but it kept crashing the game after 30 seconds

 

[Sedda]

you should actually try playing against a bunch of campy pikas on nothing but hyrule for a week straight.

even though Hyrule is the best stage forever and ever, it doesn't really belong in tournament simply due to the time constraints + ultra tryhard mode.

im pretty sure everybody here knows that i PERSONALLY love hyrule. no reason to force other people to play on hyrule in tournament

 

[Mr Bushido]

Dreamland only is sounding pretty appealing.

It is the logical option, here is why:

(this is what happened during my set vs m2k):
I won game 1 on dreamland
He won game 2 on Peach's Castle (DK is worse there, like I said most low tiers are)
I won game 3 by going back to dreamland (no stupid rule)
I got lucky and won game 4 on Peach's Castle
In the case where I would have lost game 4, I would have cp'd back to Dreamland and presumably won game 5


Due to the lack of the stupid rule and that we can't implement it due to the small number of viable tournament stages, Dreamland only is the only logical option.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

its the most logical option because it is the most symmetric stage.

THERE SHOULD BE A RULE THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO PLAY ON PORT 2 and 4 ON DREAMLAND

and if people are going to have gamesharks for timers, might as well make FD legal

 

[Cobrevolution]

fd eliminates half the cast's viability

 

[Annex]

Doesn't PC ruin 11/12ths of the casts viability?

... How would metal cavern be?

 

[Cobrevolution]

pc ruins 10/12 recoveries imo

but you have some approach options

not so much on fd

 

[Shears]

Why isn't battlefield being considered? If we're unlocking and using the master hand stage why not unlock and use the fighting polygon stage? I haven't played on it in a long time but I feel like the boundaries aren't as ridiculous as FD.

 

[Fireblaster]

Why isn't battlefield being considered? If we're unlocking and using the master hand stage why not unlock and use the fighting polygon stage? I haven't played on it in a long time but I feel like the boundaries aren't as ridiculous as FD.

ledge DI kills you

 

[The Star King]

pc ruins 10/12 recoveries imo

pc buffs recoveries compared to dl

 

[MrMarbles]

ledge DI kills you

also the side plats are awkwardly high. still a decent stage tho

 

[The Star King]

Battlefield completely ruins DK's SH platform shenanigans, 2/10 for that alone

 

[Cobrevolution]

pc buffs recoveries compared to dl

in what way? absence of a ledge negates any character who really needs one, and if you can bypass the ledge, ending lag on the plats will usually lead to a death anyway, unless you can escape in time (see: pika/kirby)

 

[The Star King]

2 levels to aim for is a big deal

platforms you can go through from below is a big deal (see: congo)

the triangles (I count it as a buff to recovery for reasons I've said before - they do harm edgeguarding)

in my opinion the amount of times landing lag "leads to death" is quite exaggerated. reminds me of people exaggerating z2ds and weakness of shields and stuff in this game

it's really awful for, like, Link, but I think it's better overall. it kind of depends on the position of the moving platform though, sometimes it really sucks when it moves away, so I might be being too kind/idealistic in that department

 

[Cobrevolution]

i'd prioritize ledge DI over the ability to go through the stage, for congo

pc: considering most characters can't make it to the top from a mid position, and only like three can make it to the bottom from low...i don't think that's really fair at all. and let's not forget that if the lower level platform is moving away from you, you're probably ****ed.

the wedges prevent edgeguarding situations more often than they harm the actual edgeguards. is that what you mean? i agree if so, which is another reason the stage is odd and not that balanced. the wedges move. and that goddamn bumper.

i don't know, it just seems like pika/kirby are by far the best there and nobody else is better than they are on dreamland.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

pc is one of the worst stages in the game lmao

edit: holy **** my purple name and avy look awesome

i'm still not over this

 

[The Star King]

i'd prioritize ledge DI over the ability to go through the stage, for congo

ok I can see someone disagreeing with me on PC recoveries since I'm not even sure myself but this is just crazy. recoveries are DEFFO better on congo than dreamland. the floor, the high side platform option (and falling through them if you want), the barrels (high level: shoot diagonally into the stage slopes so you can tech, or at least be a lot harder to punish if you miss. if you only ever shoot straight up you're doing it wrong). ledge DI has nothing on these combined

pc: considering most characters can't make it to the top from a mid position, and only like three can make it to the bottom from low...i don't think that's really fair at all.

you underestimate their power

the wedges prevent edgeguarding situations more often than they harm the actual edgeguards. is that what you mean? i agree if so, which is another reason the stage is odd and not that balanced. the wedges move. and that goddamn bumper.

yeah whatever about balance dude I'm just comparing recoveries here

i don't know, it just seems like pika/kirby are by far the best there and nobody else is better than they are on dreamland.

yeah whatever about balance dude I'm just comparing recoveries here (unless you meant this about recovery specifically)

 

[Cobrevolution]

have you ever just fell right past the ledge and not even grab it

yeah **** congo for that reason alone imo

diagonals are rare, though, so it's not like everyone's recovery is *always* going to be better. and let's face it - the amount of stun in the barrel, no matter what direction, is a problem. i just haven't seen great recoveries on congo, BUT i will concede that that might be due to there overall being less games on congo in general. so yeah whateva.

also both - whose recovery is better on peach's than on DL, and who overall is better on peach's than on DL?

 

[clubbadubba]

I would like to point out I'm very against using any gameshark stages in tournament. We shouldn't be punishing players who don't want/don't know about gamesharks by forcing them to play on stages they don't have readily available to them when they practice on their own.

 

[Shears]

What about gameshark timers?

To all you second class anti-timers out there, would you rather have an 8 minute timeout for a match or an hour and 15 minute degraded camp fest like boom had? As evidenced by sheermadness timer tournament, the timer was almost a non factor, and as evidenced by every match that took greater than 8 minutes, the presence of a timer would have been ideal. There has never been a match greater than 8 minutes that didn't cause controversy. Time to get out of the stone age people.

 

[clubbadubba]

I'm cool with gameshark timers.

I would rather have an 8 minute timeout than an hour and 15 minute camp fest. But I would rather have a 9 or 10 minute match than an 8 minute timeout. Play dreamland only, no timers, put me in charge of DQing people, problem solved.

 

[Mr Bushido]

i'm getting top3 at apex

 

[Shears]

I'm getting top3 at drunk apex

 

[clubbadubba]

i'm getting top3 at apex

I'm placing higher than you at Apex

 

[The Star King]

I'm placing higher than you at Apex

I'm placing higher than you at Apex

 

[Sedda]

star king doesnt even play anymore get this noob out of here

 

[KeroKeroppi]

top 3 spots are taken already???

wtf i guess i'll settle for 4th