Ruleset changes at Apex 2015

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Well duh there are other axioms but only one is sufficient to eliminate all stages

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

Studstill is busy flipping pairs of coins to demonstrate a point which makes sense only to himself

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Hyrule is a bad map solely due to the ****ing corner. Also, if you want every match to go to time that involves a character who can camp that corner (aka the top 5 and others,) sure allow the stage.

I fully support a timer btw. Also, Dreamland only is boring, I'd like some variation in the first match. It really should be: Neutral is between PC, DL, and CJ. Counterpicks are the same.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

The barrel on CJ isn't really that useful. The stun from being knocked up is so hilarious that even Samus can probably combo using it.

my only other issue on that map is circle camping using the platforms on the left/right side of the circular moving platforms. If anything, I could imagine people camping there, maybe.

 

[Shears]

Hyrule is a bad map solely due to the ****ing corner. Also, if you want every match to go to time that involves a character who can camp that corner (aka the top 5 and others,) sure allow the stage.

I fully support a timer btw. Also, Dreamland only is boring, I'd like some variation in the first match. It really should be: Neutral is between PC, DL, and CJ. Counterpicks are the same.

I've always been a fan this. It's pretty simple since stage striking can be used to determine the starter. But if I'm being logical and objective then I must say dreamland is the most neutral and should be the single starting stage. After last night's weekly I really noticed how gimmicky peachs can be. I think it's a fine counterpick but not viable for a starter.

 

[pidgezero_one]

peach's castle is my favourite stage of all time but i dont even want it as a starter

 

[Nintendude]

Is there a Gameshark code for a timer? I was thinking a logistical issue with it is properly streaming the timer (it would be important for viewers), but if Gameshark works fine that wouldn't be a problem for a stream setup.

 

[Shears]

I'm getting a gameshark and we can test it out at xanadu

 

[Nintendude]

I'd like to test out both Gameshark timers AND Dreamland only at Xanadu. Since we now have weeklies it's a really good opportunity to try out new things.

Right now I prefer Dreamland only, but the community is voting for stage counterpicks, and as for timers, I support them, but I think we have to figure out a stream solution, so hopefully the Gameshark thing works.

 

[Shears]

We can definitely try new things. Dreamland only is fine. I prefer counterpicks but I'm perfectly ok with Dreamland only.

 

[Cobrevolution]

current cobr view: always 5orDIE. stages, i'm with shears. i like there being CPs in the meta, BUT i would not oppose dreamland only. so long as hyrule stays banned. but i also think if we go dreamland only, no timer. so i'll only vote for stocks.

 

[tehz]

I've always found the timer gameshark code to crash my N64 like 1 or 2 matches in. I've never tried the code on another N64, or with another version of gameshark (I have Pro 3.2), but I'd be very afraid of that code in a tournament/streaming situation without a lot of prior testing.

 

[clubbadubba]

I really think we should go dreamland only as opposed to having the 2 CP stages. I'm pretty sure that we are going to end up doing it eventually, and its really more a matter of when than if. The only positive that those stages bring to competition is variety, but they carry a lot more negatives. Just like with the hyrule discussion, people will start to switch from CP's to dreamland only (plus gentleman's of course) for tournament play. We can delay the inevitable for a few more tournaments, but personally I'd rather get it over with now.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

yo people need to stop ******** about peaches and congo

great stages

 

[Fireblaster]

yo people need to stop *****ing about peaches and congo

great stages

You play top tiers. Not accusing you of tier whoring, just saying your view of those stages is a bit biased when you don't have to think of switching from your main because someone picked PC or Kongo

 

[KeroKeroppi]

You play top tiers. Not accusing you of tier whoring, just saying your view of those stages is a bit biased when you don't have to think of switching from your main because someone picked PC or Kongo

true true

 

[T Brett]

P4K's SSB64 Ruleset
Hyrule Legal
Stage Striking for one of 3 starters

Opinions?

Should P4K consult with Apex and @ Nintendude for a base set of rules?

 

[Metacopolys]

You play top tiers. Not accusing you of tier whoring, just saying your view of those stages is a bit biased when you don't have to think of switching from your main because someone picked PC or Kongo

No stage should be banned because certain characters are not as good on them.

PC is dumb because of no grabbable ledges. Needs an option for DL plus congo.

 

[Fireblaster]

No stage should be banned because certain characters are not as good on them.

PC is dumb because of no grabbable ledges. Needs an option for DL plus congo.

At this point you're accepting more variety in one category in exchange for sacrificing variety in another. Would you rather see more stages but less character variety? Keep the counterpicks.

Wanna see less stage variety but more character variety? Dreamland only

 

[Metacopolys]

At this point you're accepting more variety in one category in exchange for sacrificing variety in another. Would you rather see more stages but less character variety? Keep the counterpicks.

Wanna see less stage variety but more character variety? Dreamland only

BUT if people have a different character for a different stage that ups the character variety as more characters would be being played.

 

[Studstill]

Shears, I read your arguments, that was in response to Steve.
You were on the other thread, bro I don`t know what you thought "Fair enough, Shears. Close the thread." meant, but to reiterate:

I`m not starting a debate, I`ve been convinced that`s over.
I`m just stating, as a smash player who will be travelling to the premier 64 tournament in the world, that myself and everyone I`ve ever known plays this game on Hyrule. There isn`t even an option to vote for a Hyrule legality, so I`m unsure what to do.
I don`t want to go all that way and money to play 5/4 stocks without being able to pick the stage I want.
Because no Hyrule is WRONG. It`s clearly wrong and no one cares how much you can argue it away, or fly to Peru, or whatever, NO HYRULE IS THE WRONG CALL.
I wish you all the best of luck in figuring this out and hopefully @ Nintendude will not make the wrong call.

 

[Fireblaster]

BUT if people have a different character for a different stage that ups the character variety as more characters would be being played.

Yes, because ness and other non-top tier mains having to resort to kirby and pikachu for PC/Kongo totally means more character variety

 

[Fireblaster]

I`m not starting a debate, I`ve been convinced that`s over.
I`m just stating, as a smash player who will be travelling to the premier 64 tournament in the world, that myself and everyone I`ve ever known plays this game on Hyrule. There isn`t even an option to vote for a Hyrule legality, so I`m unsure what to do.
I don`t want to go all that way and money to play 5/4 stocks without being able to pick the stage I want.
Because no Hyrule is WRONG. It`s clearly wrong and no one cares how much you can argue it away, or fly to Peru, or whatever, NO HYRULE IS THE WRONG CALL.
I wish you all the best of luck in figuring this out and hopefully @ Nintendude will not make the wrong call.

**** off, no one cares that you and all your bad friends used to play on hyrule and want to force everyone else at the biggest tournament ever to use that bad stage. You're right that the debate is over because it's pointless to have a debate about hyrule with you. You already admitted you're convinced that hyrule is THE CORRECT stage to play on forever and ever.

Also, stop wasting your energy trying to suck up to the TO's and guys in charge of apex. I've already spoken to nintendude and he told me that IF it was up to him and him alone, dreamland would be the only legal stage.

 

[Studstill]

Jesus man, get a ****ing grip.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

javi's just being objective, studstill

hyrule's a fun stage for friendlies but it doesn't belong in a competitive setting

you should really try to come to terms with that because it's never coming back man

 

[Shears]

Why is no Hyrule the wrong call but yes Hyrule the right call? Should Mushroom Kingdom be legal too? The decision to remove Hyrule wasn't arbitrary, it wasn't removed by a few individuals in power.

Here is a thread that was used in part of the decision making to remove Hyrule:
http://smashboards.com/threads/a-case-against-hyrule.340054/

Here is a thread that was used in part of the decision making to add timers (most votes in this thread were made impulsively without people reading it through as evidenced by the change in votes of the community in this current thread):
http://smashboards.com/threads/should-timers-be-used-for-matches-poll.347985/

As for a thread on 4/5/7/99 stock, there isn't one, and there won't be one. Here's why, tournaments have time limits, they need to finish in a certain amount of time. The more stocks the more time it takes to finish a match and so we need to limit the amount of stocks to the smallest number that doesn't jeopardize the outcome of a match. As you will certainly agree, 1/2/3 stocks are not enough to truly determine who the better player is. There is volatility in the game and because of combos, stocks can be taken much too easy so 1/2/3 stocks doesn't allow for the game to play out (its like why baseball has 9 innings and not 3, or football is 4 quarters and not 2). So what is the threshold at which the winner will be determined accurately but the game will not take too long? You have agreed in the past, and everyone else here agrees that the threshold is at least 4 stocks, with many believing it to be 5 (as evidenced by the current voting). So would 7 stock be better than 4/5? Maybe, but is 7 necessary? No, because it is proven that with 5 stocks the outcomes won't be different than with 7 stocks. The newer argument is that 4 stocks is as good as 5 stocks at determining outcomes, and that is where the 4 stock change comes from. Several tournaments have implemented 4 stock and the results are seeming to be the same, so if it is accurately proven that 4 stocks does the job of 5 stocks, and less stocks is always faster than more stocks, tournaments will uniformly move towards 4 stocks. Since the 4 stock ruleset is still being tested, it isn't a standard and the votes are still in favor of 5.

 

[Cobrevolution]

scrubstill is a stubborn bad player. End of discussion

 

[KeroKeroppi]

gentleman

i'd like to make a public statement

i've been thinking long and hard about this all day

the truth is that i've been playing a LOT of peaches and congo recently

i thoroughly enjoy both of those stages and like the way i perform on them

not only with my high tiers, but with some of my mid and low tiers as well

i really do think this idea that pika and kirby are the only playable characters on peaches and congo is an absurd and ignorant one

and i think that with a little more practice, everybody would enjoy those stages a bit more

the only characters that truly suffer on peaches and congo are characters that nobody really plays anyway

so why should we ban 2/3 of the legal stages for character mains that don't exist?

we should be focusing on the players that do exist

they're the ones that matter

but then i thought about cobr

and firo

and all of these other players that use low tier characters in tournament

do they not matter?

they've committed hundreds of hours into mastering a character that can easily be counter picked to and beaten at peaches and congo

is that right?

like i said, there aren't a lot of these players

and that's a damn shame

but i understand why now

it is because we've allowed a ruleset that punishes these players, that more of these players do not exist

i'm not saying that the banning of peaches and congo will bring in this influx of dk, ness, samus, and link mains

and whatever changes we do see will certainly not happen over night

but there's no denying that players would be more encouraged to play these characters in a DL only ruleset

a ruleset where they can't be easily counter picked

a ruleset where everybody gets to play on a stage that's good for them

this game is extremely balanced

we shouldn't be cutting anybody out

if every character got pushed to their absolute limits on a good and balanced stage like DL

i really think that the metagame would transform into something truly beautiful

i see now that a DL only ruleset is a huge step in the right direction for this game's future

it is for this reason that i am officially changing my stance from anti DL only to pro DL only

that is all

pls feel free to contact me with questions and concerns

thank you

- kero the great

ps

[collapse=] i ****ed your mom

 

[caneut]

> a little more practice

its about where your practice time is spent. some of us spend more time training more than just two characters on the cast.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Anyone who wants to play on hyrule, pc, and kj is velcome to visit toronto ;p

I will not be pushing for the legality of these stages outside of my own tournaments

 

[KeroKeroppi]

i would also like to make a public apology to stef

i consistently refer to the citizens of smashboards as "gentlemen" forgetting that there is a female among us

forgive me, stef, it is a bad habit

i will think of a more gender neutral term to use

 

[pidgezero_one]

I honestly never noticed

 

[Studstill]

Kero,
If that is what passes for objective than you`re all ****ed. You should try reading the dictionary instead of 5-stocking it. Terrible speech; I rescind my nomination for High Chancellor.
Since my last three posts have been misunderstood:
I`M JUST TRYING TO VOTE FOR HYRULE AS A SINGLE SMASHER.
Thanks!

 

[Cobrevolution]

I`M JUST TRYING TO VOTE FOR HYRULE AS A SINGLE SMASHER.

then prove it instead of saying something stupid like

Because no Hyrule is WRONG. It`s clearly wrong and no one cares how much you can argue it away, or fly to Peru, or whatever, NO HYRULE IS THE WRONG CALL.

you should actually form a case for hyrule that includes
1. analysis of stage hazards
2. effects on character variation
3. effects on character matchups
4. effects on tournament time and logistics
5. discussion of how the stage design does not facilitate stalling

please avoid
1. statements about you and your scrub friends having played it for years
2. stage favoritism
3. silly claims about "get good at the game," because you aren't good enough to make those kinds of claims

thanks!

 

[Madao]

The top of the platform [A] appears to be the same height
the bottom of the platform which doesnt matter appears to be different
this is probably just an issue with the camera positioning when the thing says GO
best way to check is with character coordinates in ram

It has already been proven that the right platform is slightly higher than the left one in Dreamland. 3 points higher, to be precise.

I've always found the timer gameshark code to crash my N64 like 1 or 2 matches in. I've never tried the code on another N64, or with another version of gameshark (I have Pro 3.2), but I'd be very afraid of that code in a tournament/streaming situation without a lot of prior testing.

You mind elaborating on what happened? Like what exact code did you use? I may be able to make a more safe code.

 

[Olikus]

Maybe Im just a crazy norwegian but I dont think peach is much worse for many of the low tiers than DL. People might forget that the stage is actually allot bigger than DL. Its easier for link to camp there for example. The long top plattform makes it easier for caracthers like samus and DK to combo/platform drop and tech chase allot more than on many other stages.

The only caracthers I can see doing allot worse there is fox, falcon, yoshi and ness. And I do allso mean that Pika and kirby are both better at DL for sure. Im not saying peach is better than DL for low tiers, but as I mentioned, I think people overlook allot of aspects with the stage and saying that its worse than it actually is.

For my point of view im pretty neutral to DL only or counterpicks. My favourite ruleset would probably be DL neutral and PC as counterpick. I dont really like congo. But DL only is fine as well.

 

[Cobrevolution]

dk and samus platform combos are basically guaranteed on DL, whereas on peach's it's pretty damn hard. also imagine actually getting the combo and then bumper/wedge interruption....**** that noise

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Samus has more combos on Peach's thanks to the bumper alone than on Dream Land

 

[Annex]

What oli said, but cut that dumb **** about link being good there and add dumb **** about dk being good there

guys he's really good
I'm serious

 

[clubbadubba]

Z's DK vs m2k's kirby is a pretty solid example of how high tiers get boosted on PC.

I`M JUST TRYING TO VOTE FOR HYRULE AS A SINGLE SMASHER.
Thanks!

Ok I think everyone has noted this. If we ever get to a point in the future where enough other people feel the same way, you will get a chance to cast such a vote. Right now, what you're doing would be equivalent to a single member of the House demanding that Obama be impeached. Motion has been recognized, but there is just not enough support to warrant wasting anyone's time discussing it further.