Lady Kuki
Smash Journeyman
Sorry.*shrug
You asked for an opinion. I gave one. My job here is done
Let me ask this in a less, convicting tone: How bad is Roy's disadvantage state and how can you fix it?
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Social Roy Social - R O Y B O Y Z
- Thread starter Moydow
- Start date
Let me ask this in a less, convicting tone: How bad is Roy's disadvantage state and how can you fix it?
dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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- Oct 3, 2011
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Cross up someone's shield with aerials so they have a more difficult time punishing or can't punish what you do, space aerials so that your opponent can't do anything from shield to punish you. Roy's mobility makes him pretty good at this, you'll get merced if you misspace a lot of aerials or don't use your mobility vs. defensive options. If you nair or fair someone's shield in one place and only really utilize vertical momentum, you will get punished hard. You need to make good use of horizontal mobility to create safe opportunities with aerials, and you need to cover options correctly with his ground normals, which I'll cover next.
You have many tools to poke and prod safely, some being jab, dtilt, and Flare Blade. Your grab range is bad but you get a lot of reward with proper use of throws, and you get massive range because of Roy's speed with pivot grabs if used properly. Your grab range is less relevant and your throw punishes are more relevant when you can guarantee things into grab, too. When you hit someone or their shield with those tools, or whiff with them, you need to react correctly. Roy is really good at boxing people out, and his jab is one of the best boxing tools in the game. You can't really do anything if Roy is properly jabbing and boxing your shield or approach. You have to back off, and if you're at the ledge, you can't really do anything and Roy will pressure you until you get hit, simple as that.
Sweetspot jab leads into regrab, sour jab, or side-b at low percents, aerials at mid percents, and sour jab leads into either grab or another sour jab at a wide range of percents. You want to sometimes jab them twice to make sure they can't combo break or airdodge your grab attempt. You essentially jab them until they're forced to land awkwardly and can't really do anything about it, then you grab them and continue from there.
Getting grabs off sourspots and low percent sweetspots is going to be really important with most of Roy's moves to advance his punish game.
Getting 1-2 jabs, running up to grab, doing a pummel or two, then forward throwing into something like nair, and then covering their next option and continuing strong option coverage until neutral resets is something I've been doing a lot lately. It often leads into zero-to-deaths I've been getting lately, and otherwise racks up damage really nicely and unstales kill moves or leads to early kills.
His disadvantage state isn't really noteworthy or enough to make him stand out as a weakness if he's utilized properly, he has many safe tools. Sure he has no autocancels out of short hop, but his landing lag isn't bad by any means at this point and fair has fantastic IASA frames. Bair is tricky and I'm trying to figure out why it seems safer than it should be, you can retreat after uair hits shield or whiffs, and dair is sometimes a good, hard-hitting mixup that pops them up which you can observe in Sethlon's recent sets. I'm not a fan of dair, but I do have to acknowledge when it seems to be used well or at least potent. It has surprisingly good hitstun that I'm now noticing with its landing lag buff, so I've been getting true combos off it, namely off the sourspot when labbing. Nair is, well, nair, and you can mix it up in many ways, one I think we should explore is nair 1.
Nair 1 leads into regrab or jab to rack up damage, and at kill percents, it's a safer way to kill confirm into utilt or ftilt.
If an opponent doesn't escape correctly, we could kill off nair 1 at 60-90 (rage and positioning dependent) via fsmash, and 90-110 with usmash. I don't like nair 1 dsmash unless I'm near the ledge, so I need to play with it more, but it's pretty flexible as a true combo due to dsmash's first hit coming out on frame 6 (1/10th of a second) and having surprising vertical range on the first swing's hitbox.
If you mess up and go for the utilt or ftilt after hitting their shield with nair 1, it either catches them dropping shield often, or it pushes them back too much to get a punish that matters often. I'm not saying it's 100% safe, but it's safer than it seems on paper.
Roy's stuff is pretty safe if used correctly, and he never really has a frame disadvantage within human reaction time when he's playing neutral well and boxing in good spots, so if you stay unpredictable or continue using options your opponent can't do much about, you'll have a terrifying neutral when you do get in, especially when accounting for good stage positioning and pushing someone's back to the ledge. Roy has some of the best pressuring at the ledge in my opinion, I can't afford to be there when I play against Serew. People think more often about approach as blindly throwing moves rather than using proper defensive moment to get in, which imo is one of the most important things to learn as Roy and why a lot of people struggle to approach with him. They want to think of approach in terms of purely attacks, and then discredit his approach entirely. Your neutral goes from disadvantaged to really potent if you're good at weaving around and getting into and out of an opponent's space correctly, which is what I think Ryo meant a while back when he was talking about Roy's neutral and how a strong Roy needs a good understanding of it to do well. More and more I'm seeing why myself and other users are really stressing movement options over everything right now.
Whenever I do something unsafe or leave a blind spot open with Roy, it's because I'm doing at least one thing in neutral incorrectly more so than character design, and it continues to help me find things to tighten and improve on.
Gawain was talking about how perfect pivots really help cover blindspots with Roy's frame data off of other movement options, so that could really help in high-level play to get out or bait something, especially with defensive options like shield, jab, or dtilt. That's another thing we need to do to cover any frame data weaknesses we can.
TLDR: Horizontal aerial mobility with aerials and properly reacting when using jab/dtilt are things we should be doing most on shield to avoid disadvantageous state. Sweetspots at low percents and sourspots at any percents are things we should grab from. We need to nair 1 and sour uair confirm more into kills, I don't really talk about sour uair because I'm not knowledgable/good with it and other users here are much better with it. Movement options are likely the best thing we can learn and develop right now.
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While I agree with some of their points, I feel as if people are too harsh on Roy. Every time they talk about him they treat him like he's Zelda. I believe he could use buffs though, and I don't believe he's rewarded enough for his game plan.
For example, what's the deal with Fair? It has a lot of good points but it's so strange that it starts up on frame 10. After around 60% landing Fair-Fair combos becomes difficult and it's just kinda there, it's so slow to come out for what seems to be no reason considering the range on it isn't fantastic.
Blazer is in an awkward position where DI completely butchers when it kills. It's really disheartening to get that red lightning, watch the opponent DI away and live to 140%. Same deal with people managing to DI away from jab which sets up his only relatively easy to land kill confirm. Aerial blazer is also kind of weak outside of those cool early Fair-Blazer combos.
His throws aren't as great as they could be. I almost exclusively use Fthrow because trying to land any sort of combo from Dthrow is awkward and it allows me to get a tech chase if I can't start a combo.
I suppose those are my major complaints, but I'm not what you'd call a good player anyways. The only real other thing I dislike is how awkward his other kill confirms are. Like tipper Uair/first hit Nair can set up for kills, but trying to land that in a match is insane. That said, I do enjoy playing Roy despite my complaining. He's got this feeling to him no other character in the cast can replicate in terms of movement and I hope he can go far one day.
For example, what's the deal with Fair? It has a lot of good points but it's so strange that it starts up on frame 10. After around 60% landing Fair-Fair combos becomes difficult and it's just kinda there, it's so slow to come out for what seems to be no reason considering the range on it isn't fantastic.
Blazer is in an awkward position where DI completely butchers when it kills. It's really disheartening to get that red lightning, watch the opponent DI away and live to 140%. Same deal with people managing to DI away from jab which sets up his only relatively easy to land kill confirm. Aerial blazer is also kind of weak outside of those cool early Fair-Blazer combos.
His throws aren't as great as they could be. I almost exclusively use Fthrow because trying to land any sort of combo from Dthrow is awkward and it allows me to get a tech chase if I can't start a combo.
I suppose those are my major complaints, but I'm not what you'd call a good player anyways. The only real other thing I dislike is how awkward his other kill confirms are. Like tipper Uair/first hit Nair can set up for kills, but trying to land that in a match is insane. That said, I do enjoy playing Roy despite my complaining. He's got this feeling to him no other character in the cast can replicate in terms of movement and I hope he can go far one day.
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
regardless of what people think you should still play the character, give them a reason to not think roy is low tier and win some tournaments
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
buffs to roy would be nice though, maybe allow DED to middair stall like in melee and he'd be waaaaaay better
Guys great news
I can perform the sliding taunt tech!!! XD
I personally think he needs some power buffs - damage (some moves just don't do enough imo) and in some cases Knockback like Blazer
Speeds Buffs (Fair comes out quicker, Utilt + Dsmash ending quicker, Dair)
DED connects better (seriously annoys me that people can escape it as low as 50%)
And posisble a grab range buff and Dthrow buff
But in end, even if Roy doesn't get at least one of these, I'm still happy with him and will main him unless for some Reason Young Link makes a return.
I can perform the sliding taunt tech!!! XD
You do have some points that Roy could uses some buffs
I personally think he needs some power buffs - damage (some moves just don't do enough imo) and in some cases Knockback like Blazer
Speeds Buffs (Fair comes out quicker, Utilt + Dsmash ending quicker, Dair)
DED connects better (seriously annoys me that people can escape it as low as 50%)
And posisble a grab range buff and Dthrow buff
But in end, even if Roy doesn't get at least one of these, I'm still happy with him and will main him unless for some Reason Young Link makes a return.
Serew
Smash Apprentice
Just got home from avalon U III
Finished 25/126 in singles and 5/4X (not sure how many exactly) teams!
I got 17th last time, but i did notice improvements at certain moments. I played neutral alot better today which for me was a very bad point lol.
So yeah, placing wise it wasn't bad, but not as good as last time. Ofc that happens so it's all fine
but the improvements are great and really are what matters to me :D
I had a huge mental block against ness before and i've gotten over that.
(I was chrom before btw)
Also, if people are really gonna talk about buffs. What about his hand and arm hurtboxes? No? anyone?
less DED endlag could be useful for neutral mixups, and a better grab would be very useful (especially dash grab)
But honestly, i've never gotten the feeling that Roy is holding me back too much, so buffs would be nice but i can definitely do without them
So how has everyones day been for the rest? xD
Finished 25/126 in singles and 5/4X (not sure how many exactly) teams!
I got 17th last time, but i did notice improvements at certain moments. I played neutral alot better today which for me was a very bad point lol.
So yeah, placing wise it wasn't bad, but not as good as last time. Ofc that happens so it's all fine
but the improvements are great and really are what matters to me :D
I had a huge mental block against ness before and i've gotten over that.
(I was chrom before btw
)Also, if people are really gonna talk about buffs. What about his hand and arm hurtboxes? No? anyone?
less DED endlag could be useful for neutral mixups, and a better grab would be very useful (especially dash grab)
But honestly, i've never gotten the feeling that Roy is holding me back too much, so buffs would be nice but i can definitely do without them
So how has everyones day been for the rest? xD
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dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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Fair's a pretty funny move to me, namely because it has landing lag from a short hop way after it ends but ridiculously good IASA, and because the startup is deceiving with how quickly he swings it like a flyswatter. Sourspotting it looks and sounds pretty funny, especially as your opponent is higher in %.
I will fully agree that Roy should be rewarded more for his gameplan and deserves a lot of buffs, and you hit a lot of key points on what Roy needs implemented into his design and I agree with everything, but since we can't really make buffs happen, we just need to focus on the tools we have to improve and focus on ourselves as players first and foremost. If we make ourselves more threatening with Roy before more buffs, then those buffs will only add to it.
Playing with his weaknesses will be how we improve. Since DI butchers some of our stuff, we could come up with DI mixups that are still terrifying when we do get buffs, and become more creative with kill options when an opponent DI's certain things correctly. Since fair and fthrow don't combo like they should, we can come up with frame traps and followups from them that we can start to mix up if he ever gets those buffs, and it'll fundamentally help our punishes in the meantime.
I found nair 1 awkward for the longest time, but it's becoming much easier the more I use it. Try to set it up in friendlies as much as you can, even fishing for it at first to learn the timing/spacing and feel less awkward with it is alright until you're more comfortable. I can't really speak for uair, since I vastly prefer nair 1, but other players are saying uair's better. I'll experiment with it once I nail nair 1 consistently.
For now, we just need to work around these character weaknesses and mitigate them as much as possible, and push our strengths that no other character has to their limits. If we get buffs after really strengthening ourselves as players, imagine the potential.
If I were to add to needed buffs?
Most certainly range on most of his swings, slightly more grab range, and some way to make it where fthrow is less often just one teeny bit short of combo'ing, especially at the ledge. It happens a lot more than I'd expect. He needs more spacing opportunities and a bigger sweetspot with it to mitigate his disadvantages, kinda like how he functioned fine competitively in PM 3.0 with the base sweetspot. It would balance how he really needs to get in to be his character with a game where there's many projectiles and skyscraper swords.
Yoooooo good stuff! Did you get on stream?Just got home from avalon U III
Finished 25/126 in singles and 5/4X (not sure how many exactly) teams!
I got 17th last time, but i did notice improvements at certain moments. I played neutral alot better today which for me was a very bad point lol.
So yeah, placing wise it wasn't bad, but not as good as last time. Ofc that happens so it's all fine
but the improvements are great and really are what matters to me :D
I had a huge mental block against ness before and i've gotten over that.
(I was chrom before btw
Also, if people are really gonna talk about buffs. What about his hand and arm hurtboxes? No? anyone?
less DED startup could be useful for neutral mixups, and a better grab would be very useful (especially dash grab)
But honestly, i've never gotten the feeling that Roy is holding me back too much, so buffs would be nice but i can definitely do without them
So how has everyones day been for the rest? xD
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Serew
Smash Apprentice
only one set in doubles. honestly not super happy with how i did there
I mean, we could send an email to Sakurai asking if he could fix up some things with Roy like fair.
I forgot to say before, the thing i want most fixed with Roy is his UpB's ledge snap. Atm, he has the same problem Robin had in earlier version.
For some reason, at the apex of move, if Roy is facing away from the stage, he won't grab the ledge. It is seriously annoy and has accounted for a number of deaths that has happened to me.
Jiom
Smash Journeyman
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- 474
To me, you are in disadvantage state after being hit. (not having stage control could be classified asdisadvantage too)
When you get hit there are a few situations depending on the move you get hit by, depending on knockback angle, current %, and how far you get launched by the move.
1. Juggle moves: Mario up tilt, Sheik fair/ftilt, fox up tilt etc. You guys know what these moves are, when you get hit by one, you're almost guaranteed to be getting hit again afterwards, total disadvantage. There are 3 ways to potentially escape. Attack, jump, air dodge.
Some characters such as luigi, yoshi, and villager have access to aerials that come out on frame 3 that they can just mash to potentially combo break. Roy's fastest is uair, which comes out on frame 5, while it can combo break, it will definitely not be able to combo break in the same situations as a frame 3 aerial would. Also the first frame of hitbox on uair seems to be under him, making it pretty situational.
Jumping in these situations is dangerous as if you don't time your jump correctly and jump too early, you just get clipped out of it and continue getting juggled, except now you don't have a double jump to help you land or recover if you get sent off stage, but again there are characters who can afford to spam jump as they have multiple jumps or a unique trait, such as yoshi's double jump armor.
And last, we have air dodge. As I'm aware, air dodges first frame of intangibility starts frame 3-4 depending on character, seems pretty good but if you air dodge too low to the ground you suffer lag, so even if you air dodge Mario's 2nd up tilt, he frame traps you with the 3rd up tilt because of the landing lag from air dodge.
Keep in mind there are special moves that can help get out of juggles too, moves like Dk up b with intangibility on frames 3-6 and sheik bouncing fish frame 3 intangibility come to mind.
As you can see, Roy doesn't have much in these categories so he needs an emphasis on his combo DI/smash DI and Having a well timed jump to escape some combos. Certain combos are more suited for Roy due to his weight and his quick fall speed, but that also makes him easier to get out of some compared to floatier characters.
2. Not sure how to categorize this but moves that will send you off the ground, trajectories like Roy's up throw and up tilt around mid percent. These moves don't explicitly lead to true combos but now the opponent has the whole stage to work with punishing your landing. He can just follow your aerial movement and force you to pick a spot to land and guess on how you will choose to land.
A safe option opponents like to do is just shield next to your landing and grab after you do land. Potentially covering both air dodges and aerials. Thanks to Roy's air mobility, he can keep a fair distance away and usually land safely. Added to his mobility, are his aerials with low Landing lag and due to his mobility you can usually space these safely on shield as retreating as you land, avoiding the shield grab if they are able to close the distance our air mobility gives us.
Although niche, we also have access to a counter to keep it more of a guessing game and sometimes people just forget we have one, especially if we Haven't used it prior.
3. Next would be moves that send us off stage.. But I don't really want to cover that right now, even though Roy does have a recovery that you could learn to mixup really well, given how straightforward it seems it's still difficult to edgeguard successfully against.
There could be a lot more variables or other things people consider a disadvantage state but if you have any questions I'll try to answer. I definitely don't think Roy has one of the worst advantage states, I'd say it's fairly average but I come from playing ganondorf, who has arguably one of the worst disadvantaged states, it's also much harder to put Roy in disadvantage in the first place.
When you get hit there are a few situations depending on the move you get hit by, depending on knockback angle, current %, and how far you get launched by the move.
1. Juggle moves: Mario up tilt, Sheik fair/ftilt, fox up tilt etc. You guys know what these moves are, when you get hit by one, you're almost guaranteed to be getting hit again afterwards, total disadvantage. There are 3 ways to potentially escape. Attack, jump, air dodge.
Some characters such as luigi, yoshi, and villager have access to aerials that come out on frame 3 that they can just mash to potentially combo break. Roy's fastest is uair, which comes out on frame 5, while it can combo break, it will definitely not be able to combo break in the same situations as a frame 3 aerial would. Also the first frame of hitbox on uair seems to be under him, making it pretty situational.
Jumping in these situations is dangerous as if you don't time your jump correctly and jump too early, you just get clipped out of it and continue getting juggled, except now you don't have a double jump to help you land or recover if you get sent off stage, but again there are characters who can afford to spam jump as they have multiple jumps or a unique trait, such as yoshi's double jump armor.
And last, we have air dodge. As I'm aware, air dodges first frame of intangibility starts frame 3-4 depending on character, seems pretty good but if you air dodge too low to the ground you suffer lag, so even if you air dodge Mario's 2nd up tilt, he frame traps you with the 3rd up tilt because of the landing lag from air dodge.
Keep in mind there are special moves that can help get out of juggles too, moves like Dk up b with intangibility on frames 3-6 and sheik bouncing fish frame 3 intangibility come to mind.
As you can see, Roy doesn't have much in these categories so he needs an emphasis on his combo DI/smash DI and Having a well timed jump to escape some combos. Certain combos are more suited for Roy due to his weight and his quick fall speed, but that also makes him easier to get out of some compared to floatier characters.
2. Not sure how to categorize this but moves that will send you off the ground, trajectories like Roy's up throw and up tilt around mid percent. These moves don't explicitly lead to true combos but now the opponent has the whole stage to work with punishing your landing. He can just follow your aerial movement and force you to pick a spot to land and guess on how you will choose to land.
A safe option opponents like to do is just shield next to your landing and grab after you do land. Potentially covering both air dodges and aerials. Thanks to Roy's air mobility, he can keep a fair distance away and usually land safely. Added to his mobility, are his aerials with low Landing lag and due to his mobility you can usually space these safely on shield as retreating as you land, avoiding the shield grab if they are able to close the distance our air mobility gives us.
Although niche, we also have access to a counter to keep it more of a guessing game and sometimes people just forget we have one, especially if we Haven't used it prior.
3. Next would be moves that send us off stage.. But I don't really want to cover that right now, even though Roy does have a recovery that you could learn to mixup really well, given how straightforward it seems it's still difficult to edgeguard successfully against.
There could be a lot more variables or other things people consider a disadvantage state but if you have any questions I'll try to answer. I definitely don't think Roy has one of the worst advantage states, I'd say it's fairly average but I come from playing ganondorf, who has arguably one of the worst disadvantaged states, it's also much harder to put Roy in disadvantage in the first place.
Lady Kuki
Smash Journeyman
Do you guys think it's possible to buff Roy and make him good? This is implying that he isn't good yet. If you can buff him and make him good, how can that be possible?
I remember someone telling me that he can never be good with the hilt mechanic, but I think otherwise.
I'm not trying to bring negativity here; I'm just trying to get things straight wirh you guys.
I remember someone telling me that he can never be good with the hilt mechanic, but I think otherwise.
I'm not trying to bring negativity here; I'm just trying to get things straight wirh you guys.
Jiom
Smash Journeyman
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Well if I were too pretend to myself that he wasn't good yet Just some range or 1-2% damage buffs on some aerials or tilts would make him good.
I think he is already good.
Just some buffs here and there will make that good even better.
dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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I'm curious, what are you trying to get straight with the Roy Social, exactly?
Not questioning any thoughts on character viability, the way it's presented just strikes me a bit.... odd.
Lady Kuki
Smash Journeyman
Pffft.
I was just wondering if the hilt mechanic was holding him back. That's all.
Lemme stop asking questions here. I don't want to turn it into a negativity fest again. It seems like I can't ask questions here without causing some sort of an argument, so I'll stop. :U
Jiom
Smash Journeyman
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I think his hilt mechanic is solely there to add another layer of difficulty, neither a detriment or benefit in actual play. On paper having sourspots at your max range is pretty oxymoronic in a game like smash, I'm actually not sure if any move works that way outside of Roy.
dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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It's no problem, the way it was worded originally seemed like you were wanting to get Roy mains to admit he wasn't good for some outside purpose with hypotheticals, and trying to get something straight out of us. I think I misread it, I didn't sleep much last night so my literacy's a bit down and I'm stumbling over my own sentences a lot today. It's not good to always be suspicious in a place like this, and that might not have been deserving of suspicion, so I may have overstepped off of misreading.
The large hilt does have mechanics to its balancing that set it apart from the Falchions.
Marth:
+Sweetspot at the tip of the blade, most advantageous for pure spacing
+Potential to kill the earliest
-Smallest sweetspot by a lot
-Needs to space effectively and read/punish for kills, if someone messes up inside of Marth then he has very few ways to nab the stock, and while he can kill the earliest, he will have the hardest time doing this and less opportunities to. Your kills will really vary and be inconsistent, and there's outside factors your opponent will manipulate to make it hard/impossible for you to tipper them
Lucina:
+No sweetspot or sourspot, so your setups and kills work the same at any part of the blade, making her a more straightforward character
+Kills will be more rounded and consistent, you don't need to worry as much about killing them at 50 one stock and 150 the next as often
-No sweetspot to nab early kills, her earliest kills happen later than Marth/Roy's earliest.
-No sweet/sour combos and potent smart utilization of a sourspot like the others.
Roy:
+Sweetspot is fairly large, and it packs a lot of power in racking up damage and killing alongside its size
+If an opponent messes up anywhere near you, they're going to really eat it, and the other two can't capitalize on this as hard
-Sourspots are the weakest of the three, and they can happen at terrible times while Marth has less of a problem with his sourspots killing
-Being weak at the tip limits spacing a little, even if Roy's no slouch at spacing he's still less advantaged than the other two on spacing alone
+Sweetspot at the tip of the blade, most advantageous for pure spacing
+Potential to kill the earliest
-Smallest sweetspot by a lot
-Needs to space effectively and read/punish for kills, if someone messes up inside of Marth then he has very few ways to nab the stock, and while he can kill the earliest, he will have the hardest time doing this and less opportunities to. Your kills will really vary and be inconsistent, and there's outside factors your opponent will manipulate to make it hard/impossible for you to tipper them
Lucina:
+No sweetspot or sourspot, so your setups and kills work the same at any part of the blade, making her a more straightforward character
+Kills will be more rounded and consistent, you don't need to worry as much about killing them at 50 one stock and 150 the next as often
-No sweetspot to nab early kills, her earliest kills happen later than Marth/Roy's earliest.
-No sweet/sour combos and potent smart utilization of a sourspot like the others.
Roy:
+Sweetspot is fairly large, and it packs a lot of power in racking up damage and killing alongside its size
+If an opponent messes up anywhere near you, they're going to really eat it, and the other two can't capitalize on this as hard
-Sourspots are the weakest of the three, and they can happen at terrible times while Marth has less of a problem with his sourspots killing
-Being weak at the tip limits spacing a little, even if Roy's no slouch at spacing he's still less advantaged than the other two on spacing alone
Marth/Ike were some of my primary tournament characters before Roy, even during my soulsearching phases, and I've been to plenty of tournaments with them over a year, so I feel I can speak on them quite a bit. I might be talking out my ass with Lucina a bit, and I'm by no means a current meta Marth/Ike expert, so I may be wrong on advantages and disadvantages on sweetspots. I wouldn't say there's a best option if we're only discussing sweetspots from the three, there's so many tradeoffs and it's one of the harder things to nail objectives with.
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Speaking of Uair, I find myself using it a lot when retreating in the air. I'm surprised with how many people are caught off guard with it. The active frames are pretty decent and I find myself replacing Bair with this move.
Schnizzle Fits
Smash Cadet
Sourspots don't really matter because Roy has Melee Marth's sourspot kbs that can end out helping him most of the time. As such sourspot up air can lead to a KO when sweetspot up air cannot but Roy can capitalize off both with good reaction time.
dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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MarioMeteor
Smash Hero
I find Roy to be a very odd character in that his weaknesses match his strengths almost blow for blow. That said though, his strengths are easy enough to play to that stops him from falling into low tier territory. He's also just straight up better than most low tiers.
If we're still talking buffs, I think above all else, Roy needs a range buff. Like, he's a sword fighter. He wields the Sword of Seals, not the Pencil of Seals. His range is pitiful for a sword character. It's part of the reason why his moves are so unsafe unless you have spacing of the gods.
After that, he could use some attribute buffs. Lower gravity, lower falling speed. He drops like lead for no reason, and it makes spacing his aerials harder than it should be. And then of course, autocancel windows on said aerials.
If we're still talking buffs, I think above all else, Roy needs a range buff. Like, he's a sword fighter. He wields the Sword of Seals, not the Pencil of Seals. His range is pitiful for a sword character. It's part of the reason why his moves are so unsafe unless you have spacing of the gods.
After that, he could use some attribute buffs. Lower gravity, lower falling speed. He drops like lead for no reason, and it makes spacing his aerials harder than it should be. And then of course, autocancel windows on said aerials.
I actually really like his attributes. It makes him feel very unique as a swordfighter with quick movement, from running to returning to the ground, even if they have drawbacks like bad dash to shield or high gravity making him susceptible to combos. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to him being even faster.
Schnizzle Fits
Smash Cadet
Na, what Roy could use is, more of a reason to use Bair. He wields the wet noodle, you get used to it. I guess its more of a half cooked noodle now though....
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Damage increases on sweetspot fair/bair/nair would be hugely appreciated for him; Marth's damage increases (particularly in fair) were huge boons for him as his optimal play patterns turned into potentially rewarding KOs, Roy's aerials are all quite lacklustre at this time.
That along with sword length matching with Marth would be a really really good start to seeing where he stands.
From that he would likely (to me), stop being dysfunctional, just rather undertuned. DED/Side-B needs fixing though; it doing A LOT less damage than dancing blade but also fails to be a punish due to it's loss of combo ability at early-mid percent, it's an eyesore.
Roy's sour spots could all essentially become Sheik-tieresque [still maintaining his frame data though] and he'd be a significantly more enjoyable, 'complete' and robust character. Sheik-tier damage with sub-sheik follow up potential.
Nair and Fair tipper barely providing more combo potential than his sweet spots due to their highish knockback scaling while the rest of his tippers almost provide nothing is really frustrating.
First and foremost though, to really push Roy into a high tier-ish character without making him 'dumb', his sour spots are the way to go.
Auto cancel adjustments on both Marth/Roy would be really nice; bairs and dairs IMO. We've already ranted about how much nicer a sh ac bair would be. Everything else would be nice but they're already heavily predisposed towards landing usage. But still, an undertuning aspect.
Blazer's set ups all being DI-able / never killing because aerial blazer doesn't KO at 200% is a downer but would be heavily rectified if his aerials sometimes produced KOs at reasonable percent near the ledge. But Buffs in [aerial] blazer would be what pushes him towards a very relevant threat more so than any other single move change.
That along with sword length matching with Marth would be a really really good start to seeing where he stands.
From that he would likely (to me), stop being dysfunctional, just rather undertuned. DED/Side-B needs fixing though; it doing A LOT less damage than dancing blade but also fails to be a punish due to it's loss of combo ability at early-mid percent, it's an eyesore.
Roy's sour spots could all essentially become Sheik-tieresque [still maintaining his frame data though] and he'd be a significantly more enjoyable, 'complete' and robust character. Sheik-tier damage with sub-sheik follow up potential.
Nair and Fair tipper barely providing more combo potential than his sweet spots due to their highish knockback scaling while the rest of his tippers almost provide nothing is really frustrating.
First and foremost though, to really push Roy into a high tier-ish character without making him 'dumb', his sour spots are the way to go.
Auto cancel adjustments on both Marth/Roy would be really nice; bairs and dairs IMO. We've already ranted about how much nicer a sh ac bair would be. Everything else would be nice but they're already heavily predisposed towards landing usage. But still, an undertuning aspect.
Blazer's set ups all being DI-able / never killing because aerial blazer doesn't KO at 200% is a downer but would be heavily rectified if his aerials sometimes produced KOs at reasonable percent near the ledge. But Buffs in [aerial] blazer would be what pushes him towards a very relevant threat more so than any other single move change.
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dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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This really hits the nail on the coffin (tho you missed out the weird ledgesnap problem with backwards Blazer recovery)
Tho tbh honest, even if all he got was damages buffs, I would be more than happy since then it would mean you got more of a reward for your combo efforts
And also Balzer to have significantly more kill power. Compared to other moves that are similar, it's just super weak (Charizards can kill you at 80% in midair for crying out loud)
ILOVESMASH
Smash Ace
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Don't Roy's sourspot aerials already deal more damage than sheik's?
Agree with pretty much everything said here. That being said, I feel Roy's Ground moves could use buffs as well since outside of killing, most of them are pretty mediocre / bad, harming his neutral game. Jab, Ftilt, and Utilt should all have less endlag and more range, similar to the buffs that Marth got to these moves recently. This would give Roy more leeway in getting KO confirms from jab, give him a much more reliable ranged poke, and provide him with a good option to juggle opponents w/o resorting to using his aerials. D-Tilt is pretty good the way it is right now, but it would really benefit from some extra range. U-Smash could use some extra active frames + slightly more range. D-Smash, I feel, is fine the way it currently is, though slightly more knockback and less endlag wouldn't hurt. Finally, Roy's Dash Grab needs much more range, as the move's lack of range combined with roy's slow Dash Attack forced him to resort to using his SH aerials, making his approach very predicable.
EnGarde
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Got some more pins for my pins collection from Pound, so I decided to take a picture of them lol. The 4 on the left (using stock images from Smash 4) I originally got from Smash Con, the new pins especially the bottom row and the Roy pin, are pretty great imo. The Roy pin is now my controller pin lol.
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dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
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I compiled our discussion about Roy's balance into an e-mail, and sent it to nintendo@noa.nintendo.com. I took many things word-for-word or slightly altered them to appeal slightly more for balance changes. If anyone would like to add any more changes they'd like to see, or increase demand to make these things more likely, I'd suggest emailing them as well.
Subject: Roy in Smash 4 - Community Discussed Potential Balance Fixes
Subject: Roy in Smash 4 - Community Discussed Potential Balance Fixes
I'm not sure how much user-requested balance changes are documented and considered for Smash 4, but I figured it'd be a cool Sunday morning project to give it a shot.
The majority of users on the Roy boards on Smashboards feel that Roy has definite design issues after many months of discussion, and while I originally applauded his design choices in June and how he functioned, some rough areas have shown in the long run that haven't been addressed by patches, while other swordsmen have seen much more beneficial changes to fix core design issues. Roy did receive landing lag buffs, however they do very little in comparison to before, and don't address his core issues.
I documented a lot of discussion from many users the last few days alone, and compiled it into this e-mail. This is an attempt to gather issues that many players of Roy have with him, and how they can be addressed.
Roy doesn't have much reason to be played compared to other swordsmen outside of personally liking the character, and we feel that design fixes and strengthening to his character would really help add to the diversity of the game and contribute to DLC sales in order to strongly support the game overall.
Overall, Roy's gameplan doesn't feel like it rewards the player enough, especially compared to swordsmen such as Cloud, Corrin, Ike, Marth, and Lucina, who all share similarities to him. You have to invest in him a lot to truly squeeze reward out of him, and even then, other swordfighters get the same reward or more much easier.
Roy's forward air is a bit of an odd move. It's so strange that it has really high startup, it's so slow to come out for what seems to be no reason considering the range on it isn't fantastic and considering that it doesn't reward the player much to land. It's a bit of a risky move with short range, and rather than having more drawbacks outside of that, it should be a more rewarding move for Roy players. It still has landing lag from a short hop long after the move ends, which makes no sense.
Back air doesn't feel rewarding enough as a move, and it feels like it lacks KO power very often when it's designed to KO. It's a very niche move that can easily be neglected completely as it stands. Increased damage and knockback, and possibly hitbox changes for the better could help see more use of this move.
Blazer, Roy's up-b move, is in an awkward position, where DI (Directional Influence) completely butchers when it can KO. It's really disheartening to get that red lightning, watch the opponent DI away, and live to 140%. It's the same deal with jab, where jab can lead into Blazer as one of Roy's few safe ways to land a KO, in what is called a "KO confirm." However, DI completely butchers jab's ability to do this, which hurts Blazer even more. We feel that Blazer is too weak and variable of a move, where an opponent can hold their stick the wrong way and lose a stock at 100%, or hold their stick the right way and live at 140-150%. Roy's up-b seems to be intended to take stocks from the ground at around 100 percent, and it's a really risky move, so these properties make no sense. If Roy's jab and down throw had more opportunities to link into up-b, we feel it'd really help the move.
The only other moves that can KO confirm as Roy require a ridiculous amount of patience and skill, such as linking the first hit of neutral air while landing into a move, or the weak hit of up air while landing into a move, and they still don't feel rewarding enough and can be played around easily. Compared to other swordsmen, Roy has much more difficult KO confirms with less reward.
The aerial version of Blazer seems to be much weaker than it should be, and it's simply an odd drawback. Other characters don't suffer from weakened knockback in the air with their up-b's, and grounded Blazer lacks the power it needs as it stands. Considering characters such as Marth, Lucina, Charizard, Corrin, Ryu, Meta Knight, Dr. Mario, Shulk, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Link, Sheik, Zelda, Little Mac, Wario, and Peach all have similar up-b's to Roy, with more strengths overall to them and no arbitrary limits to their aerial up-b's, it doesn't make sense that aerial Blazer is so weak. Near the top of the stage, it'd make sense if aerial Blazer took stocks between 75 and 85 percent. Namely considering Charizard and Corrin's up-b moves, it'd really help balance Roy in comparison.
Blazer overall definitely could use more knockback, and possibly launch at an angle where Directional Influence has much less effect on it, such as launching straight vertically.
Roy's up tilt and down smash have a lot of endlag, and less endlag could help see more use of them as tools.
The hitboxes on Roy's up tilt and up aerial are very fickle, and it's very difficult to pinpoint where exactly the sweetspot and sourspot of each are. More defined differences between them, possibly by snipping the sourspot hitboxes a bit and increasing the range of the sweetspots, would really help Roy's sword make more sense and be more straightforward. It'd help dedicated Roy mains who still have trouble understanding these moves after so many months, and it'd be a more straightforward change to beginners of Roy's character who would like to pick him up. It feels like we have to strongly hope the sweetspot of up tilt hits to KO, and often times it won't when it feels it will.
Roy's throws aren't as great as they should be. A lot of us exclusively use forward throw, because of it being the outright better combo throw, and because the opponent is forced to hit or tech the ground often from forward throw if it can't combo. Trying to land any sort of combo from down throw is awkward, it doesn't have the hitstun or knockback to be a good combo throw like it seems to be designed for. A lot of players will habitually down throw because of it being a staple combo throw on many characters, so a better down throw would help make Roy become a more beginner-friendly character.
Back throw is practically useless, it almost never if ever has a use to it, and up throw feels like it takes stocks at higher percents than it should. 150% or so should make sense, but it doesn't take stocks until 170 or 180, which is still just a maybe. Those are very disheartening percents for an opponent to be at where a grab is only a "maybe" for a KO, and Roy often has those issues because his KO moves are difficult to land and can easily be played around. For someone who has as much power as Roy to balance the weak parts of his design and give him his strengths, it doesn't make sense for him to have quite a few core issues in taking a stock. If at least one of his grabs could reliably take a stock at 110% or higher by linking into another move, it'd really help this core issue.
One thing that could really help Roy, is one where the first swing of his side-b (Double-Edge Dance) could propel him higher. It'd help with his lackluster recovery, and it'd give more creativity to his neutral game. Less endlag on his side-b in general could make it a more useful move, since it's not really useful as it stands, and even using it often outside of just a combo tool is a huge detriment to Roy players when it shouldn't be. Side-b in general lacks damage in comparison to Marth's Dancing Blade, and by damage we mean a LOT of damage lacking. It fails to be a move to both punishes and combos often due to how easily opponents can escape it. At lower percents, a lot of characters can simply hold down on their control stick and shield to punish Roy, and at middle and high percents, it doesn't link together correctly and often allows opponents to escape. Hitbox and knockback fixes to the move could really help it, and it'd be nice if the fourth horizontal and upwards swings functioned as KO moves, similar to Marth's.
Roy has hurtboxes on his hands and arms that make moves hit him to trade or land when they shouldn't, notably on recovery when he's rising to the ledge and something like Ike forward smashing on-stage to hit Roy before he touches the ledge. I've done this multiple times as Ike, and it's easy to manipulate. Fixes to Roy's hurtboxes would be nice ones to help snip around his design's fatty areas overall, it's a flaw that isn't as prominent in other swordsmen and doesn't seem to have a reason to be there. Roy extending his hurtbox is a lot more punishable than it should be.
Roy's grabs overall could definitely see improvement, especially since throws don't feel rewarding enough. There will often be times when Roy's hand will be very close to an opponent or grazing their shield, but the grab won't go through, and he'll take punishment from it. His dashing grab suffers from the same problem to a greater extent, so fixes on his grab hitboxes and better angles and/or hitstun on his forward and down throws, more knockback from up throw, and maybe ways to make back throw have uses could really help Roy and fix core design issues. Forward throw is very often in a spot where it's just one inch away from landing a combo, but still can't land anything.
Roy's sword feels like it needs a bit more range. With the hitbox fixes on Marth and Lucina's swords, and all other swordsmen either having projectiles or much more range on their swords, it feels like Roy is left in the dust and in an awkward position. More opportunities to space his moves against opponents, and a larger sweetspot to mitigate his weaknesses and help his reward would really help balance him properly. It would balance how he really needs to get in to be his own character with a game where there's many projectiles and massive swords, and he has trouble keeping up in the neutral game against all of it. His range is pitiful for a sword character, which is a problem when you have to hit with the hilt of your sword to be rewarded the most. It's part of the reason why his moves are so unsafe unless you have spacing of the gods as a player. It doesn't truly feel like he wields the Sword of Seals.
Roy's up-b has trouble snapping to the ledge when he's facing away from it, similar to a problem Robin used to have. Since this problem was fixed with Robin, it'd be convenient overall to see a fix for Roy, it's just a small quality-of-life deal that could snip around the fat of his design a bit more. For some reason, at the apex of move, if Roy is facing away from the stage, he won't grab the ledge. This has accounted for many stock losses.
Certain users feel that the changes that would truly matter would be more 1-2% damage increase changes, and increased range on aerials and tilts. Since Roy's blade is at its most effective at the base, this puts him at somewhat of a disadvantage compared to other sword wielders, where simply more reward and a little more spacing ability would truly matter and possibly help balance his hilt mechanic to other swordsmen. The landing lag buffs he's received are very minor, and what would truly matter in the same vein is more opportunities to autocancel (zero landing lag) his aerials from a short hop.
Users feel that damage changes would matter most in his aerials, particularly on his neutral, forward, and backward aerials. Marth's damage increases (particularly in forward air) were huge boons for him as his optimal play patterns turned into potentially rewarding KOs, Roy's aerials are all quite lackluster at this time.
Improvements to Roy's sourspots to lead into more combo opportunities could make him a more robust character, and he'd be significantly more "complete" and enjoyable.
We feel Roy's ground moves could use buffs as well, since outside of KO potential, most of them are pretty mediocre or bad, harming his neutral game. Jab, forward tilt, and up tilt should all have less endlag and more range, similar to the buffs that Marth got to these moves recently. This would give Roy more leeway in getting KO confirms from jab, give him a much more reliable ranged poke, and provide him with a good option to juggle opponents without resorting to using his aerials. Down tilt is pretty good the way it is right now, but it would really benefit from some extra range. Up smash could use some extra active frames + slightly more range, since often times it can't catch lingering options such as a spotdodge or airdodge when the move is still coming out. Down smash, we feel, is mostly fine the way it currently is, though slightly more knockback and less endlag wouldn't hurt. Finally, Roy's dash grab needs much more range, as the move's lack of range combined with Roy's slow dash attack forces him to resort to using his short hop aerials, making his approach very predicable.
After a lot of discussion, we feel that if many or most of these changes were implemented, it still wouldn't make Roy a polarizing or overpowered character. He has a very small playerbase and not much (if any) appeal to pick him over other swordfighters outside of his character design, which is especially a problem with a character who is DLC and could help the game rake in more money if more players had more reason to use him. He's seen very few changes throughout patches, and we feel that we've nailed potential changes that would really help the game.
It's disheartening to hear Roy constantly talked down on in discussions, and to hear things such as him being called the worst swordsman or worst DLC character. If Roy was improved a decent amount, we feel that these discussion topics would be too volatile to have one viable candidate, and it'd help reduce the toxicity of the game's community. Improvement to our character would make the game diverse, giving even more reason to choose between each of the game's swordsmen, and helping a unique power/speed character with other drawbacks truly realize what their design could be.
The majority of users on the Roy boards on Smashboards feel that Roy has definite design issues after many months of discussion, and while I originally applauded his design choices in June and how he functioned, some rough areas have shown in the long run that haven't been addressed by patches, while other swordsmen have seen much more beneficial changes to fix core design issues. Roy did receive landing lag buffs, however they do very little in comparison to before, and don't address his core issues.
I documented a lot of discussion from many users the last few days alone, and compiled it into this e-mail. This is an attempt to gather issues that many players of Roy have with him, and how they can be addressed.
Roy doesn't have much reason to be played compared to other swordsmen outside of personally liking the character, and we feel that design fixes and strengthening to his character would really help add to the diversity of the game and contribute to DLC sales in order to strongly support the game overall.
Overall, Roy's gameplan doesn't feel like it rewards the player enough, especially compared to swordsmen such as Cloud, Corrin, Ike, Marth, and Lucina, who all share similarities to him. You have to invest in him a lot to truly squeeze reward out of him, and even then, other swordfighters get the same reward or more much easier.
Roy's forward air is a bit of an odd move. It's so strange that it has really high startup, it's so slow to come out for what seems to be no reason considering the range on it isn't fantastic and considering that it doesn't reward the player much to land. It's a bit of a risky move with short range, and rather than having more drawbacks outside of that, it should be a more rewarding move for Roy players. It still has landing lag from a short hop long after the move ends, which makes no sense.
Back air doesn't feel rewarding enough as a move, and it feels like it lacks KO power very often when it's designed to KO. It's a very niche move that can easily be neglected completely as it stands. Increased damage and knockback, and possibly hitbox changes for the better could help see more use of this move.
Blazer, Roy's up-b move, is in an awkward position, where DI (Directional Influence) completely butchers when it can KO. It's really disheartening to get that red lightning, watch the opponent DI away, and live to 140%. It's the same deal with jab, where jab can lead into Blazer as one of Roy's few safe ways to land a KO, in what is called a "KO confirm." However, DI completely butchers jab's ability to do this, which hurts Blazer even more. We feel that Blazer is too weak and variable of a move, where an opponent can hold their stick the wrong way and lose a stock at 100%, or hold their stick the right way and live at 140-150%. Roy's up-b seems to be intended to take stocks from the ground at around 100 percent, and it's a really risky move, so these properties make no sense. If Roy's jab and down throw had more opportunities to link into up-b, we feel it'd really help the move.
The only other moves that can KO confirm as Roy require a ridiculous amount of patience and skill, such as linking the first hit of neutral air while landing into a move, or the weak hit of up air while landing into a move, and they still don't feel rewarding enough and can be played around easily. Compared to other swordsmen, Roy has much more difficult KO confirms with less reward.
The aerial version of Blazer seems to be much weaker than it should be, and it's simply an odd drawback. Other characters don't suffer from weakened knockback in the air with their up-b's, and grounded Blazer lacks the power it needs as it stands. Considering characters such as Marth, Lucina, Charizard, Corrin, Ryu, Meta Knight, Dr. Mario, Shulk, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Link, Sheik, Zelda, Little Mac, Wario, and Peach all have similar up-b's to Roy, with more strengths overall to them and no arbitrary limits to their aerial up-b's, it doesn't make sense that aerial Blazer is so weak. Near the top of the stage, it'd make sense if aerial Blazer took stocks between 75 and 85 percent. Namely considering Charizard and Corrin's up-b moves, it'd really help balance Roy in comparison.
Blazer overall definitely could use more knockback, and possibly launch at an angle where Directional Influence has much less effect on it, such as launching straight vertically.
Roy's up tilt and down smash have a lot of endlag, and less endlag could help see more use of them as tools.
The hitboxes on Roy's up tilt and up aerial are very fickle, and it's very difficult to pinpoint where exactly the sweetspot and sourspot of each are. More defined differences between them, possibly by snipping the sourspot hitboxes a bit and increasing the range of the sweetspots, would really help Roy's sword make more sense and be more straightforward. It'd help dedicated Roy mains who still have trouble understanding these moves after so many months, and it'd be a more straightforward change to beginners of Roy's character who would like to pick him up. It feels like we have to strongly hope the sweetspot of up tilt hits to KO, and often times it won't when it feels it will.
Roy's throws aren't as great as they should be. A lot of us exclusively use forward throw, because of it being the outright better combo throw, and because the opponent is forced to hit or tech the ground often from forward throw if it can't combo. Trying to land any sort of combo from down throw is awkward, it doesn't have the hitstun or knockback to be a good combo throw like it seems to be designed for. A lot of players will habitually down throw because of it being a staple combo throw on many characters, so a better down throw would help make Roy become a more beginner-friendly character.
Back throw is practically useless, it almost never if ever has a use to it, and up throw feels like it takes stocks at higher percents than it should. 150% or so should make sense, but it doesn't take stocks until 170 or 180, which is still just a maybe. Those are very disheartening percents for an opponent to be at where a grab is only a "maybe" for a KO, and Roy often has those issues because his KO moves are difficult to land and can easily be played around. For someone who has as much power as Roy to balance the weak parts of his design and give him his strengths, it doesn't make sense for him to have quite a few core issues in taking a stock. If at least one of his grabs could reliably take a stock at 110% or higher by linking into another move, it'd really help this core issue.
One thing that could really help Roy, is one where the first swing of his side-b (Double-Edge Dance) could propel him higher. It'd help with his lackluster recovery, and it'd give more creativity to his neutral game. Less endlag on his side-b in general could make it a more useful move, since it's not really useful as it stands, and even using it often outside of just a combo tool is a huge detriment to Roy players when it shouldn't be. Side-b in general lacks damage in comparison to Marth's Dancing Blade, and by damage we mean a LOT of damage lacking. It fails to be a move to both punishes and combos often due to how easily opponents can escape it. At lower percents, a lot of characters can simply hold down on their control stick and shield to punish Roy, and at middle and high percents, it doesn't link together correctly and often allows opponents to escape. Hitbox and knockback fixes to the move could really help it, and it'd be nice if the fourth horizontal and upwards swings functioned as KO moves, similar to Marth's.
Roy has hurtboxes on his hands and arms that make moves hit him to trade or land when they shouldn't, notably on recovery when he's rising to the ledge and something like Ike forward smashing on-stage to hit Roy before he touches the ledge. I've done this multiple times as Ike, and it's easy to manipulate. Fixes to Roy's hurtboxes would be nice ones to help snip around his design's fatty areas overall, it's a flaw that isn't as prominent in other swordsmen and doesn't seem to have a reason to be there. Roy extending his hurtbox is a lot more punishable than it should be.
Roy's grabs overall could definitely see improvement, especially since throws don't feel rewarding enough. There will often be times when Roy's hand will be very close to an opponent or grazing their shield, but the grab won't go through, and he'll take punishment from it. His dashing grab suffers from the same problem to a greater extent, so fixes on his grab hitboxes and better angles and/or hitstun on his forward and down throws, more knockback from up throw, and maybe ways to make back throw have uses could really help Roy and fix core design issues. Forward throw is very often in a spot where it's just one inch away from landing a combo, but still can't land anything.
Roy's sword feels like it needs a bit more range. With the hitbox fixes on Marth and Lucina's swords, and all other swordsmen either having projectiles or much more range on their swords, it feels like Roy is left in the dust and in an awkward position. More opportunities to space his moves against opponents, and a larger sweetspot to mitigate his weaknesses and help his reward would really help balance him properly. It would balance how he really needs to get in to be his own character with a game where there's many projectiles and massive swords, and he has trouble keeping up in the neutral game against all of it. His range is pitiful for a sword character, which is a problem when you have to hit with the hilt of your sword to be rewarded the most. It's part of the reason why his moves are so unsafe unless you have spacing of the gods as a player. It doesn't truly feel like he wields the Sword of Seals.
Roy's up-b has trouble snapping to the ledge when he's facing away from it, similar to a problem Robin used to have. Since this problem was fixed with Robin, it'd be convenient overall to see a fix for Roy, it's just a small quality-of-life deal that could snip around the fat of his design a bit more. For some reason, at the apex of move, if Roy is facing away from the stage, he won't grab the ledge. This has accounted for many stock losses.
Certain users feel that the changes that would truly matter would be more 1-2% damage increase changes, and increased range on aerials and tilts. Since Roy's blade is at its most effective at the base, this puts him at somewhat of a disadvantage compared to other sword wielders, where simply more reward and a little more spacing ability would truly matter and possibly help balance his hilt mechanic to other swordsmen. The landing lag buffs he's received are very minor, and what would truly matter in the same vein is more opportunities to autocancel (zero landing lag) his aerials from a short hop.
Users feel that damage changes would matter most in his aerials, particularly on his neutral, forward, and backward aerials. Marth's damage increases (particularly in forward air) were huge boons for him as his optimal play patterns turned into potentially rewarding KOs, Roy's aerials are all quite lackluster at this time.
Improvements to Roy's sourspots to lead into more combo opportunities could make him a more robust character, and he'd be significantly more "complete" and enjoyable.
We feel Roy's ground moves could use buffs as well, since outside of KO potential, most of them are pretty mediocre or bad, harming his neutral game. Jab, forward tilt, and up tilt should all have less endlag and more range, similar to the buffs that Marth got to these moves recently. This would give Roy more leeway in getting KO confirms from jab, give him a much more reliable ranged poke, and provide him with a good option to juggle opponents without resorting to using his aerials. Down tilt is pretty good the way it is right now, but it would really benefit from some extra range. Up smash could use some extra active frames + slightly more range, since often times it can't catch lingering options such as a spotdodge or airdodge when the move is still coming out. Down smash, we feel, is mostly fine the way it currently is, though slightly more knockback and less endlag wouldn't hurt. Finally, Roy's dash grab needs much more range, as the move's lack of range combined with Roy's slow dash attack forces him to resort to using his short hop aerials, making his approach very predicable.
After a lot of discussion, we feel that if many or most of these changes were implemented, it still wouldn't make Roy a polarizing or overpowered character. He has a very small playerbase and not much (if any) appeal to pick him over other swordfighters outside of his character design, which is especially a problem with a character who is DLC and could help the game rake in more money if more players had more reason to use him. He's seen very few changes throughout patches, and we feel that we've nailed potential changes that would really help the game.
It's disheartening to hear Roy constantly talked down on in discussions, and to hear things such as him being called the worst swordsman or worst DLC character. If Roy was improved a decent amount, we feel that these discussion topics would be too volatile to have one viable candidate, and it'd help reduce the toxicity of the game's community. Improvement to our character would make the game diverse, giving even more reason to choose between each of the game's swordsmen, and helping a unique power/speed character with other drawbacks truly realize what their design could be.
Why do I have the feeling Sakurai will read this, change one thing of Roy unrelated to any of this then be all like
Though seriously, this is actually put good, tho it makes me wonder if we are asking for to much.
Also, I seem to notice a few odd sentences, like the start of para 9 about Roy's ko abilities.
Other than that, really good job!
dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2011
- Messages
- 1,296
Roy sucks. He has absolutely nothing going for him
Ehhhh, I kinda regret this email now. It might increase buff chances a tiny bit, but it put me in a really bad mindset this morning that I had trouble getting out of, and I felt a lot of unnecessary pessimism on Roy that I took overboard in other places.Why do I have the feeling Sakurai will read this, change one thing of Roy unrelated to any of this then be all like
View attachment 102857
Though seriously, this is actually put good, tho it makes me wonder if we are asking for to much.
Also, I seem to notice a few odd sentences, like the start of para 9 about Roy's ko abilities.
Other than that, really good job!
Well, nothing you can do now. I personally reckon if I was in your position, i'd have still sent the email and not regret it. We are just trying to give our opinion to a problem that is effecting us. It's no different that say if you sent a letter the Government or whoever big boss person you can think to help improve the way of your life or activities
True story, I once sent an email to nintendo asking them to bring back young link. full moveset included
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Even if we don't get buffs, the best is to move on and adapt on whatever it comes next, at least we can say we don't have a wet noodle like in melee
Shoutout toJCav for being a beast, he had some really solid sets and moments I just found in both singles and doubles when searching for VODs a few days ago.
Yo, thanks for the shoutout
My Roy has leveled up quite a bit recently and I've learned quite a few tricks from this forum so thanks to you guys. My state has an Arcadian on Saturday and I'm really hoping to show everyone what Roy can do.
As far as Roy buffs go, my list has two things:
1) Down-air sweetspot. My god the sweetspot for this move is so small, it's laughable. It could almost be the entire blade if you ask me, the move is so slow (hits on frame 16). In my opinion, this is Roy's worst move, the only move comparable to this would be down smash. I've only ever seen Sethlon use dair, and he somehow makes it look good. I think he got 3rd at the last Shockwave, check these out. The commentators say, "Sethlon doesn't play Smash, he plays Roy" lmao.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5To-wNxD-rhP1AGkuoUYYkj
2) Marth and Lucina's jab hits on frame 3, just imagine how AMAZING this would be for Roy. His neutral is decent imo, but this would totally take care of that and give Roy a true "get off me move."
HermitHelmet
Smash Journeyman
Sending some kind of email is the wrong thing to do and puts you in a bad mentality
Pining for buffs won't help. Learn matchups and outplay your opponent with the tools you have lol
Pining for buffs won't help. Learn matchups and outplay your opponent with the tools you have lol
Lady Kuki
Smash Journeyman
Yeaaaaaah at this point, it's up to the balance team to decide whether Roy is worthy of buffs or not. While I do believe that constant complaints have gotten certain characters buffs and nerfs (Ex: Mewtwo, MK, Ike, Sheik etc.), it may not have as big as an effect as we may believe. It's a tad depressing to speak about Roy buffs because it's entirely possible that this may either be the last patch, or that Roy will be untouched in the patches to come. When talking about Roy's buffs, the whole discussion becomes completely hypothetical. Theorizing is always nice, but too much theorizing get depressing after a while. Think of the whole "the grass is always greener on the other side" mentality. That's what I think of Roy buffs and tier lists atm. "Oh, look at Mewtwo! I bet you that if Roy had buffs that big, he'd win a national too!" Stuff like that is just discouraging. The best thing to do right now is to use Roy to the best of your ability and mitigate some of the glaring flaws he may have. We can't control how and when Roy will be buffed, but we can control how well he could perform in tournament play.
Anyway, I want to move onto a entire topic completely. I want to talk about a topic I have barely seen in this thread: Roy's personality.
Barring FE6's lack of amazing writing and character depth (mostly due to the older, awkward translations), what type of personality do you think Roy may have? His personality type may not vary for some people as much as I think it does, but I'll give you my thoughts anyway:
While I do feel that Roy isn't incredibly written as a character (again, blame video game writing and poor translation), I do feel like some things are implied, such as his insecurity.
For example, in one of the supports with Lance, he says the following line:
"I’m not particularly smart, and I don’t have much charisma, either. So I have to gain trust by experiencing the pain that everyone else is…"
Such line implies that he is insecure deep down inside. Not very surprised at this. After all, he's just a fifteen year-old boy. Imagine if you had to lead an army at the age of fifteen. Must be pretty heavy handed stuff there.
How does this line imply that he is insecure exactly? Can't find any other quotes atm (haven't played FE6; I've only seen playthroughs), but Roy is capable of being a good tactician. How else would he be able to stop Zephiel if he wasn't a good tactician? Lol. He is also perceptive to the point where he finds out the bard character's identity; the bard guy doesn't even have to say. Roy just comes up with his own conclusion. Has to take some amount of intelligence to figure out someone's identity or to stop the big bad from taking over the world, right?
Now this is where things start to get reaaally subjective. I at least added a line from the game to back up my last argument, but this part is pretty much my opinion at this point: Roy feels kind of stern to me for some reason. I feel like Roy has a stern personality because of the way he is usually depicted in artwork. I almost always see him with a serious look on his face. Whenever I see Roy smile, he doesn't look incredibly happy, he just looks pleased. I especially think this of Roy because of Eliwood. Eliwood appears to be less stern to me because he is usually smiling and when he isn't smiling, he looks a bit uncomfortable. His eyes are still wide open; the eyes look emotional, but the eyebrows' position and his mouth do not. It's almost as if Eliwood doesn't want to be angry.
Because of the way he's depicted as Smash, I feel like Roy is the type of person to transition from a calm and composed character to a hotblooded and easily excitable one when in war. Before fighting, Roy to me still behaves kind of similarly to how he behaves in FE6; if you look at Roy's Melee and SSB4 render (the SSB4 render practically being a "remake" of the original), he looks relaxed. He's not doing a crazy or dynamic pose. He's just standing with his sword tucked in his sheath. Whenever his victory screen arrives, he goes back to his calm state. He doesn't yell or swing his sword around as violently as he would do in battle.
Lol look at me. I'm such a geek. What am I typing this long character analysis for? XD
Anyway, I want to move onto a entire topic completely. I want to talk about a topic I have barely seen in this thread: Roy's personality.
Barring FE6's lack of amazing writing and character depth (mostly due to the older, awkward translations), what type of personality do you think Roy may have? His personality type may not vary for some people as much as I think it does, but I'll give you my thoughts anyway:
While I do feel that Roy isn't incredibly written as a character (again, blame video game writing and poor translation), I do feel like some things are implied, such as his insecurity.
For example, in one of the supports with Lance, he says the following line:
"I’m not particularly smart, and I don’t have much charisma, either. So I have to gain trust by experiencing the pain that everyone else is…"
Such line implies that he is insecure deep down inside. Not very surprised at this. After all, he's just a fifteen year-old boy. Imagine if you had to lead an army at the age of fifteen. Must be pretty heavy handed stuff there.
How does this line imply that he is insecure exactly? Can't find any other quotes atm (haven't played FE6; I've only seen playthroughs), but Roy is capable of being a good tactician. How else would he be able to stop Zephiel if he wasn't a good tactician? Lol. He is also perceptive to the point where he finds out the bard character's identity; the bard guy doesn't even have to say. Roy just comes up with his own conclusion. Has to take some amount of intelligence to figure out someone's identity or to stop the big bad from taking over the world, right?
Now this is where things start to get reaaally subjective. I at least added a line from the game to back up my last argument, but this part is pretty much my opinion at this point: Roy feels kind of stern to me for some reason. I feel like Roy has a stern personality because of the way he is usually depicted in artwork. I almost always see him with a serious look on his face. Whenever I see Roy smile, he doesn't look incredibly happy, he just looks pleased. I especially think this of Roy because of Eliwood. Eliwood appears to be less stern to me because he is usually smiling and when he isn't smiling, he looks a bit uncomfortable. His eyes are still wide open; the eyes look emotional, but the eyebrows' position and his mouth do not. It's almost as if Eliwood doesn't want to be angry.
Because of the way he's depicted as Smash, I feel like Roy is the type of person to transition from a calm and composed character to a hotblooded and easily excitable one when in war. Before fighting, Roy to me still behaves kind of similarly to how he behaves in FE6; if you look at Roy's Melee and SSB4 render (the SSB4 render practically being a "remake" of the original), he looks relaxed. He's not doing a crazy or dynamic pose. He's just standing with his sword tucked in his sheath. Whenever his victory screen arrives, he goes back to his calm state. He doesn't yell or swing his sword around as violently as he would do in battle.
Lol look at me. I'm such a geek. What am I typing this long character analysis for? XD
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