Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[N3ON]

Well if you want to represent the full Nintendo, you at least make a Gameboy character a part of it. Why would Nintendo want to forget their first portable.

We already have Kirby, Pikachu, and Wario, three huge characters that made their debut on the Gameboy. Looks like we're set.
And did you forget Muddy can represent the Gameboy just as well better? Not that Sakurai cares about a Gameboy rep...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

because, as I said, some lesser franchises have more Viable characters that actually fit into smash than the popular ones.

wasn't your point that franchises that are more "popular and relevant" should get reps over one's that are lesser but you ae naming franchises that are less relevant that Earthbound or star Fox to the Smash bros franchise.

How are they less relevant? That doesn't make any sense. I feel that including more Earthbound/StarFox reps would be a case of over-representation where there are characters from less-represented series as well as series that have yet to be represented such as Super Punch Out and Xenoblade. I'm simply stating that, on my opinion, Earthbound and StarFox are well represented given the status of thier series.

While a character should be relevant to Smash bros., I consider it more important for a character to be relevant within it's own franchise as well as Nintendo's history.

 

[BluePikmin11]

We already have Kirby, Pikachu, and Wario, three huge characters that made their debut on the Gameboy. Looks like we're set.
And did you forget Muddy can represent the Gameboy just as well better? Not that Sakurai cares about a Gameboy rep...

Yeah but they aren't considered those Gameboy reps anymore, you can consider Princse Sable as the Ice Climbers, with no new game since but only to represent their own era.

 

[Noler_Mass]

What was the rude joke about then.

He's Noah. He does that.

 

[N3ON]

Yeah but they aren't considered those Gameboy reps anymore, you can consider Princse Sable as the Ice Climbers, with no new game since but only to represent their own era.

Pretending Sakurai hypothetically does care about this for a minute, why exactly would Muddy not be a better choice?

 

[8-peacock-8]

Well if you want to represent the full Nintendo, you at least make a Gameboy character a part of it. Why would Nintendo want to forget their first portable.

Game & Watch was their first portable. Just so you know.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Pretending Sakurai hypothetically does care about this for a minute, why exactly would Muddy not be a better choice?

Because Prince Sable has better potential, with two forms that make Sable unique than a mole who just digs.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Game & Watch was their first portable. Just so you know.

Good point, but I'm focusing on the Gameboy era.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Good point, but I'm focusing on the Gameboy era.

I know. I'm just correcting a common mistake.

 

[N3ON]

Because Prince Sable has better potential, with two forms that make Sable unique than a mole who just digs.

Better potential? That's quite shoddy reasoning, you are aware that's completely subjective right? They would both offer something unique, and it comes down to Sakurai's opinion. They have equal potential. Plus this is the same guy who prioritizes adding multiple clones with less diverse movesets over a fewer amount of original characters. This is the same guy who was planning to have 3 FE swordsman over a less-likely but more diverse FE character.

Muddy is equal to Sable in this factor, and outclasses him in every other one.

 

[BluePikmin11]

He is diverse, considering he can change forms and use a sword when in human form. That's something not common.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm starting to get the impression that me and you are the only ones with solid beliefs concerning Chrom. You hate his living guts, and I think he would make a great character. Well I can respect that at least haha.

I only hate his guts as a newcomer, as a Lord he's alright. Granted he's not the favorite, but he is more entertaining then a decent chunk of the Lords in the series, and has competence (not broken like Sigurd though). For contrast, Marth is actually one of my least favorite Lords in Fire Emblem, but one of my favorites in Super Smash Bros.

 

[8-peacock-8]

He is diverse, considering he can change forms and use a sword when in human form. That's something not common.

A third party, named Shantae, can do all of this and she has magic instead of a sword. Magic users are usually considered more appealing. (i know she's unlikely but i'm making a point)

 

[masterluigi1]

How are they less relevant? That doesn't make any sense. I feel that including more Earthbound/StarFox reps would be a case of over-representation where there are characters from less-represented series as well as series that have yet to be represented such as Super Punch Out and Xenoblade. I'm simply stating that, on my opinion, Earthbound and StarFox are well represented given the status of thier series.

While a character should be relevant to Smash bros., I consider it more important for a character to be relevant within it's own franchise as well as Nintendo's history.

It's not over-representation when certain more deserving series don't have many characters to put in.

personally I would rather give a less popular series that has more relevant CHARACTERS like star fox or earthbound more reps over giving a more popular series like metroid that has less relevant characters a rep.

stop worrying about series representation when you should be worrying more about character representation within each series.

honestly, having approximately 45-50 characters I don't see why we can't fit characters from the series that haven't been represented also in.

 

[N3ON]

He is diverse, considering he can change forms and use a sword when in human form. That's something not common.

I dunno, we've already got characters who can shift or change form, characters who use swords, and characters that change their weapon to and from a blade. What we don't have is a character with a burrowing mechanic.
Obviously both characters could bring something new, don't act like Muddy wouldn't.

 

[BluePikmin11]

DK's headbutt already does that similarly.

 

[3Bismyname]

DK's headbutt already does that similarly.

since when can that attack make DK go underground?

 

[Noler_Mass]

I only hate his guts as a newcomer, as a Lord he's alright. Granted he's not the favorite, but he is more entertaining then a decent chunk of the Lords in the series, and has competence (not broken like Sigurd though). For contrast, Marth is actually one of my least favorite Lords in Fire Emblem, but one of my favorites in Super Smash Bros.

You know it actually is interesting, Marth is one of my least favorites too especially in contrast to Ike, yet I like Marth much more in smash. That's mainly in regards to movesets though. Don't get me wrong I still support Ike and Chrom very much so, but Ike I likely won't play as much, and depending on how much Chrom takes after Ike, I may not play with him as much either.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

What was the rude joke about then.

Who made a rude joke?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Who made a rude joke?

The joke where no one was impressed about For The Frog The Bell Tolls.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

He is diverse, considering he can change forms and use a sword when in human form. That's something not common.

Because Prince Sable has better potential, with two forms that make Sable unique than a mole who just digs.

I can't see how they would be able to make a limbless snake and little old frog work in this game, especially when they show no fighting power in the game. Besides that all he has is a sword which many other Nintendo characters (that are more likely and would make better additions) have. Not to mention we don't even know what his fighting style is like, whenever he's in combat it gets covered up by a cloud of dust, so we don't even see how he fights, with the exception of the final boss where he just thrusts his sword forward... Ooooh!

 

[TheLastJinjo]

The joke where no one was impressed about For The Frog The Bell Tolls.

I don't see how that was a joke.....or rude? Maybe I should have used a different term.

It didn't leave an IMPACT on MANY people.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

It's not over-representation when certain more deserving series don't have many characters to put in.

personally I would rather give a less popular series that has more relevant CHARACTERS like star fox or earthbound more reps over giving a more popular series like metroid that has less relevant characters a rep.

stop worrying about series representation when you should be worrying more about character representation within each series.

honestly, having approximately 45-50 characters I don't see why we can't fit characters from the series that haven't been represented also in.

But why not focus on other series such as Kid Icarus, F-Zero, Fire Emblem, as well as other un represented series? I would prefer to see a character from a unrepresented series rather than lets say Mario or Zelda.

Hey, if they can manage to put together a good roster, mix in new characters from represented and unrepresented series, I'd love to see a StarFox or EB rep. However, and this is based on assumption, I feel we don't have as many new roster slots as we think. Meaning, these slots will only be given to a select few.

If this is the case, I think priority should be given to less-represented series or unrepresented series as opposed to well represented series. Given StarFox and EB receiving less limelight, it would make sense to include characters who will sell/hype up the game. As well, Metroid has Ridley or Dark Samus to add. I'm cool with just one of those.


I understand where you are getting and agree the characters matter. However, what I'm arguing for is less if a focus on established titles such as Mario, Pokemon, or Zelda or non-active series such as StarFox and EB (not counting retro) and more on new series expansion or including worthwhile characters (Ridley, King K. Rool, Samurai Goroh, etc) into the roster.

 

[Deleted member]

Trust me, a limbless snake can work as a fighter.
Not using this in context of Sabure Prince, but just in general.

 

[BluePikmin11]

The frog is the weakest (he does have power), but the frog form allows him to jump very high pummel (In the air very well) or that very weakness.The Snake is the most powerful, but cannot jump very high if pummeled off the stage.You can only change forms on the ground, so that balances him from being a frog to snake biter abuser.And of course, the Prince Sable himself the balance between the forms.

 

[3Bismyname]

i would personally like Sable. i like the game and adding him to Smash could create some interest in a possible sequel much in the way KI did. do i think he's likely... no. is he more possible than certain retro choices? some, not all. like i think he's more likely than say Mike Jones or maybe Tamagon but next to other retro characters like Takamaru or Mach Rider his chance is slim to none. and even comparing him to Muddy Mole is wrong because really Sable is outclassed by him in many regards, notability being one of em.

 

[Deleted member]

So, he's a rip-off gimmick of Pokémon Trainer, but with his little forms of no combat skill?

Worst idea I've heard for the character.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Sable would be a unique addition. It would be interesting to see a reboot of his franchise as well. However, Mach Rider and Takamaru are ahead in both popularity and desire.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I don't see how that was a joke.....or rude? Maybe I should have used a different term.


It didn't leave an IMPACT on MANY people.

Not many impacts were on IC either.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Trust me, a limbless snake can work as a fighter.
Not using this in context of Sabure Prince, but just in general.

ROPE SNAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BluePikmin11]

So, he's a rip-off gimmick of Pokémon Trainer, but with his little forms of no combat skill?


Worst idea I've heard for the character.

Well initially, that's who he is. It's pretty easy to get used to, because you know the balance and know how to use it.

 

[Deleted member]

If that's "who he is", he's not getting in.
Wasting development time on two little transformations for one character is laughable.

Best that's going to happen if he was in would be that some moves make him turn into a frog or snake to do them, then change back.

 

[Opossum]

Because Prince Sable has better potential, with two forms that make Sable unique than a mole who just digs.

Like others have stated, that is a hugely biased generalization.

Here's my Muddy moveset.
[Collapse=My Muddy Mole Moveset]
A: Right Claw Swipe 2%
AA: Left Claw Swipe 3%
AAA: Alternating claw barrage. 2% per hit
A Side: Muddy does a small punch. Can be performed in quick succession. 8%
A Up: Muddy holds his hands up like a goal post and jumps up. 12%
A Down: Muddy gets low and kicks at the opponent’s feet. 14%
Dash A: Muddy does a leaping somersault forward. 13%







Smash Side: Muddy does a strong headbutt. 18%
Smash Up: Muddy spins upward corkscrewing his claws.22%
Smash Down: Muddy spins low to the ground kicking up a small wave of dirt to both of his sides. 20%

Air A: Muddy does a small midair cartwheel for weak damage. 5%
Forward Air A: Muddy slaps the foe weakly in midair. 4%
Backward Air A: Muddy roundhouse kicks in midair. 7%
Up Air A: Muddy sweeps his claws in an arc. 4%
Down Air A: Muddy kicks the opponent down with both feet. Meteor-Smash. 9%

Grab and Pummel: Muddy grabs the foe and knees them in the torso. 4%
Forward Throw: Muddy kicks the foe ahead of him. 10%
Back Throw: Muddy spins the opponent and throws them back, similar to Mario. 8%
Up Throw: Muddy digs under the foe and hits them with a tack from underneath, sending them upward. 15%
Down Throw: Muddy slams his foe into the ground, kicking up some dirt in the process. 12%

His Neutral B would be the iron ball. Press B once, and it spawns, and stays on the ground in front of you. You can keep it there, and it will act as an unbreakable wall. However, if you press B again when you are close to the ball, you can throw it at your opponent! It will be very slow and not very powerful at first, but if you hold B, Muddy will charge up the throw, increasing the speed, distance, and damage. However, if the opponent hits you during start up, you will drop the ball. The ball will eventually disappear if A.) Too much time passes without you throwing it, or B.) You hit the opponent. Only one Ball can be present at a time per Muddy Mole. It does 15% when pushed forward with no charge, 22% when charged. Going backwards, it does 20% uncharged, and 30% when charged.

His Side B will be the Hole Trap. Muddy would crouch low, dig a small hole, and then be able to leave the scene. The foe wouldn't know where the pitfall spot is, under normal circumstances. When it is stepped on, they fall into a pitfall. Muddy cannot get trapped by this move. So yeah, it's the pitfall item, essentially. Muddy can have up to two of these out on the stage at any given time. 0%

His Up B would be the cabbage jump. After Muddy Mole defeats a boss in his games, he saves one of his children, who pop out of a giant cabbage that falls from the sky, and leap up with a corkscrew-like jump. Muddy would essentially do the same. A giant cabbage would surround him, and he'd pop out using a Wario-like Corkscrew. If used in Midair, the cabbage will fall to the ground, potentially doing damage, and possibly a meteor-smash. When used on land, it disappears after use. I guess you can call it a mix between Wario's and Sonic's. 16% with the corkscrew, 10% if the cabbage hits you.

Muddy Mole's Down B would be Burrow. Going underground was key in Muddy Mole's adventures, so naturally Smash should reflect that. He would dig a hole, and go underground. If used on a passable platform, he'd fall through it. While underground, he can move around very fast, but at the expense of not being able to see where he is. By releasing B, he will pop out of the hole, causing minimal damage. However, you only have a three second time frame to stay underground, otherwise you are forcefully removed from the dirt. This would make up for Muddy's lackluster aerial game.

Finally, his Final Smash would be the Mole Family. When the Smash Ball is obtained, Muddy whistles loudly. His children and wife appear by his side and burrow into the stage. Going with Muddy's theme of stage control, his family makes the entire stage shake with violent tremors. To make matters worse, if the foe gets hit by one of the descending moles, they will be put into a Pitfall state. Every two or so seconds, the tremors cause 6% damage to any foe on the ground. Tripping is also slightly more likely. The effect only lasts for 15 seconds, but Muddy himself is free to move about and perpetuate the foe's agony by keeping them grounded. After 15 seconds, the family emerges. Muddy's wife puts the baby moles in their wagon, and they disappear.

Taunts: Up: He adjusts his sunglasses with a shine and smiles. (With the clichéd *ding* sound of course)
Down: He digs a small hole and pulls out a small cabbage. He proceeds to eat it.
Side: He holds out his paw and extends his claws.

Kirby Hat: Kirby dons a pair of shades and a handkerchief.

Codec Conversation: Snake: Colonel, who's the mole wearing sunglasses?
Colonel: That's Muddy Mole, Snake.
Snake: Never heard of him. He's probably no big threat.
Colonel: Be careful, Snake, Muddy here can do something that no one else here can do. He'll dig right beneath you and hit you from the other side.
Snake: That's pretty cheap, wouldn't you say?
Colonel: Coming from the man who's fighting a mole, while using a ton of explosives...just make sure to watch out, Snake.
Snake: What else is there to watch for?
Colonel: Besides digging, Muddy can also launch giant iron balls. And bombs, too.
Snake: ...Ugh.

Playstyle: Basically, Muddy Mole is your trap user to the extreme. Block off certain spots with the Iron Ball, dig underneath it, and hit the foes on the other side is a pretty good tactic. If time is running out on it, throw it for good damage. Being a mole, Muddy is best on the ground, of course. Many of his smashes and throws are powerful. That being said, if you’re playing Muddy in the air for any reason other than recovery, you’re using him wrong. Muddy is just plain bad in the air. Low fall speed, bad aerials, and semi-lightweight an aerial fighter does not make. All in all, Muddy is an interesting character to play as, and will leave the opponents guessing as to which move he’ll use next.
[/Collapse]


Compare that to Sable who...uses a sword and a transformation gimmick, where the two transformations are borderline useless in a game like Smash. See? Generalizations aren't fun.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If that's "who he is", he's not getting in.
Wasting development time on two little transformations for one character is laughable.


Best that's going to happen if he was in would be that some moves make him turn into a frog or snake to do them, then change back.

That works fine by me, but I think the frog as a recovery, and the Snake as the side special would be better,

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Trust me, a limbless snake can work as a fighter.
Not using this in context of Sabure Prince, but just in general.

I can't imagine it in Smash without it looking weird, also that would be one awkward hit box.

 

[MagnesD3]

LIQUID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Looking at your moveset for Muddy I started picturing him fighting like Wolverine in Marvel vs Capcom. Haha, that would be hilarious.

The frog is the weakest (he does have power), but the frog form allows him to jump very high pummel (In the air very well) or that very weakness.The Snake is the most powerful, but cannot jump very high if pummeled off the stage.You can only change forms on the ground, so that balances him from being a frog to snake biter abuser.And of course, the Prince Sable himself the balance between the forms.

So I can either jump high or jump low? Wow that's not very interesting.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So I can either jump high or jump low? Wow that's not very interesting.

You can either be the weak one (but has a great air game) or the lowest jumper (but with the most powerful)
Anyways I'm going to make a moveset for him now, since you guys don't find that it works.
It'll be different though.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Like others have stated, that is a hugely biased generalization.

Here's my Muddy moveset.
[Collapse=My Muddy Mole Moveset]
A: Right Claw Swipe 2%
AA: Left Claw Swipe 3%
AAA: Alternating claw barrage. 2% per hit
A Side: Muddy does a small punch. Can be performed in quick succession. 8%
A Up: Muddy holds his hands up like a goal post and jumps up. 12%
A Down: Muddy gets low and kicks at the opponent’s feet. 14%
Dash A: Muddy does a leaping somersault forward. 13%







Smash Side: Muddy does a strong headbutt. 18%
Smash Up: Muddy spins upward corkscrewing his claws.22%
Smash Down: Muddy spins low to the ground kicking up a small wave of dirt to both of his sides. 20%

Air A: Muddy does a small midair cartwheel for weak damage. 5%
Forward Air A: Muddy slaps the foe weakly in midair. 4%
Backward Air A: Muddy roundhouse kicks in midair. 7%
Up Air A: Muddy sweeps his claws in an arc. 4%
Down Air A: Muddy kicks the opponent down with both feet. Meteor-Smash. 9%

Grab and Pummel: Muddy grabs the foe and knees them in the torso. 4%
Forward Throw: Muddy kicks the foe ahead of him. 10%
Back Throw: Muddy spins the opponent and throws them back, similar to Mario. 8%
Up Throw: Muddy digs under the foe and hits them with a tack from underneath, sending them upward. 15%
Down Throw: Muddy slams his foe into the ground, kicking up some dirt in the process. 12%

His Neutral B would be the iron ball. Press B once, and it spawns, and stays on the ground in front of you. You can keep it there, and it will act as an unbreakable wall. However, if you press B again when you are close to the ball, you can throw it at your opponent! It will be very slow and not very powerful at first, but if you hold B, Muddy will charge up the throw, increasing the speed, distance, and damage. However, if the opponent hits you during start up, you will drop the ball. The ball will eventually disappear if A.) Too much time passes without you throwing it, or B.) You hit the opponent. Only one Ball can be present at a time per Muddy Mole. It does 15% when pushed forward with no charge, 22% when charged. Going backwards, it does 20% uncharged, and 30% when charged.

His Side B will be the Hole Trap. Muddy would crouch low, dig a small hole, and then be able to leave the scene. The foe wouldn't know where the pitfall spot is, under normal circumstances. When it is stepped on, they fall into a pitfall. Muddy cannot get trapped by this move. So yeah, it's the pitfall item, essentially. Muddy can have up to two of these out on the stage at any given time. 0%

His Up B would be the cabbage jump. After Muddy Mole defeats a boss in his games, he saves one of his children, who pop out of a giant cabbage that falls from the sky, and leap up with a corkscrew-like jump. Muddy would essentially do the same. A giant cabbage would surround him, and he'd pop out using a Wario-like Corkscrew. If used in Midair, the cabbage will fall to the ground, potentially doing damage, and possibly a meteor-smash. When used on land, it disappears after use. I guess you can call it a mix between Wario's and Sonic's. 16% with the corkscrew, 10% if the cabbage hits you.

Muddy Mole's Down B would be Burrow. Going underground was key in Muddy Mole's adventures, so naturally Smash should reflect that. He would dig a hole, and go underground. If used on a passable platform, he'd fall through it. While underground, he can move around very fast, but at the expense of not being able to see where he is. By releasing B, he will pop out of the hole, causing minimal damage. However, you only have a three second time frame to stay underground, otherwise you are forcefully removed from the dirt. This would make up for Muddy's lackluster aerial game.

Finally, his Final Smash would be the Mole Family. When the Smash Ball is obtained, Muddy whistles loudly. His children and wife appear by his side and burrow into the stage. Going with Muddy's theme of stage control, his family makes the entire stage shake with violent tremors. To make matters worse, if the foe gets hit by one of the descending moles, they will be put into a Pitfall state. Every two or so seconds, the tremors cause 6% damage to any foe on the ground. Tripping is also slightly more likely. The effect only lasts for 15 seconds, but Muddy himself is free to move about and perpetuate the foe's agony by keeping them grounded. After 15 seconds, the family emerges. Muddy's wife puts the baby moles in their wagon, and they disappear.

Taunts: Up: He adjusts his sunglasses with a shine and smiles. (With the clichéd *ding* sound of course)
Down: He digs a small hole and pulls out a small cabbage. He proceeds to eat it.
Side: He holds out his paw and extends his claws.

Kirby Hat: Kirby dons a pair of shades and a handkerchief.

Codec Conversation: Snake: Colonel, who's the mole wearing sunglasses?
Colonel: That's Muddy Mole, Snake.
Snake: Never heard of him. He's probably no big threat.
Colonel: Be careful, Snake, Muddy here can do something that no one else here can do. He'll dig right beneath you and hit you from the other side.
Snake: That's pretty cheap, wouldn't you say?
Colonel: Coming from the man who's fighting a mole, while using a ton of explosives...just make sure to watch out, Snake.
Snake: What else is there to watch for?
Colonel: Besides digging, Muddy can also launch giant iron balls. And bombs, too.
Snake: ...Ugh.

Playstyle: Basically, Muddy Mole is your trap user to the extreme. Block off certain spots with the Iron Ball, dig underneath it, and hit the foes on the other side is a pretty good tactic. If time is running out on it, throw it for good damage. Being a mole, Muddy is best on the ground, of course. Many of his smashes and throws are powerful. That being said, if you’re playing Muddy in the air for any reason other than recovery, you’re using him wrong. Muddy is just plain bad in the air. Low fall speed, bad aerials, and semi-lightweight an aerial fighter does not make. All in all, Muddy is an interesting character to play as, and will leave the opponents guessing as to which move he’ll use next.
[/Collapse]


Compare that to Sable who...uses a sword and a transformation gimmick, where the two transformations are borderline useless in a game like Smash. See? Generalizations aren't fun.

This is where any arguments against Muddy kind of died.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

You can either be the weak one (but has a great air game) or the lowest jumper (but with the most powerful)

Oh man, well that changes everything!