Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Gune]

I would argue captain falcon is the face of smash jigglypuff being the face of smash is actually pretty hard to believe.

 

[Deleted member]

Never said I was ignoring it. (Even if that "large part of Smash history" is merely existing)
However, that doesn't change the fact that Jigglypuff is not as safe as you think she is.

Will she be cut? Don't know. But it isn't impossible.

Exactly what evidence is there? If I recall right, wasn't she listed lower than most characters in the game's data or something?

She's towards the end of the character data rather than with the other veterans; after R.O.B., but before Snake and Sonic (who were deliberately at the end due to being guests). Same goes for Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario, who were all cut. There's also Toon Link and Wolf right after all four of those veterans, and room for at least Toon Zelda/Sheik, who was also scrapped.

 

[Bajef8]

I would argue captain falcon is the face of smash jigglypuff being the face of smash is actually pretty hard to believe.

Except he's the face of F-Zero. The Original 12 are the closest thing Smash has to a face.

 

[Deleted member]

Golden.

Wouldn't Mega Mewtwo Y technically classify as the 6th Gen mascot?

It's still Mewtwo.
That's why I said there wasn't any new "hot tickets" coming from Gen. 6.

 

[N3ON]

People saying Jiggs wasn't on the chopping block are deluding themselves. From her absence in the SSE, to her placement in the data and in some character roll calls, it's pretty clear she was. However all things considered, she was still pretty high on the list of expendable characters. Heck, she's one of only three that got in, seven didn't.

Jigglypuff is clearly important to Smash, that's why she was low priority in Brawl.

Still more important than Mewtwo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's still Mewtwo.
That's why I said there wasn't any new "hot tickets" coming from Gen. 6.

Ah. Must have missed that.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I do wonder if she may have just been ported from Melee. After all, aside from some differing effects, damage and priority, her moveset isn't different from Melee. And I doubt the new palette swaps would have any major effect on porting.

I would argue captain falcon is the face of smash jigglypuff being the face of smash is actually pretty hard to believe.

I assume you think this because Captain Falcon's N64 model is similar to the models of Dragon King: The Fighting Game, AKA Smash Bros. in it's earliest form.

I'm not just referring to Jigglypuff I'm referring to every character from the very first game, as they have so far been in every Smash game.

 

[Deleted member]

Still more important than Mewtwo.

I would be more important too, if I was cheap easy addition.

 

[IsmaR]

As much as I love it even outside of Smash, almost all the support and popularity nowadays for Jiggs stems from her being in Smash.

coughRoycough

 

[Bajef8]

I never said she wasn't in danger, nor did I ever say she wasn't previously on the chopping block. I just believe that at this point, she should be a given in any future Smash along with the rest of the original cast. Merely existing is also a stupid thing to say. Every character in a fighter became a part of its respective series' history by "merely existing."

 

[Deleted member]

I do wonder if she may have just been ported from Melee. After all, aside from some differing effects, damage and priority, her moveset isn't different from Melee. And I doubt the new palette swaps would have any major effect on porting.

Considering most of her animation data was ripped from Melee (as evident by her Air Dodge animation ending with a transition to Helpless state, which doesn't happen after an Air Dodge in Brawl; all other veterans other than G&W have newer animations without the transitions), it wouldn't surprise me if other things were just ports.

 

[N3ON]

I would be more important too, if I was cheap easy addition.

Implying Mewtwo wouldn't be? All of the expendable list seems like pretty easy additions considering they'd likely all be clones or veterans.

EDIT: At the very least he'd be easier than Wolf.

 

[Deleted member]

Implying Mewtwo wouldn't be? All of the expendable list seems like pretty easy additions considering they'd likely all be clones or veterans.

Mewtwo would have required a new model to match changes in design starting with Gen. 3 like with Pikachu at the very least.

Jigglypuff was pretty much copypasta from Melee with some minor tweaks. And bear in mind, the veterans were mostly made by scratch otherwise.
The ONLY cut veteran that would have been close to the level of ease would have been Dr. Mario, by merely editing the existing Mario model, sharing animation data and other similar data between the two, and give tweaks exclusive to Dr. Mario.


Really, the only low priority character that made it that was more than just a little effort was Wolf, and he apparently wasn't originally that way.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Honestly, it's smarter than ignorantly following faith in fanmade "Original 12" logic.
And quite frankly, with the strong evidence there is that Jigglypuff was low priority compared to every other character that wasn't Toon Link and Wolf (not just "derp not in SSE"), to act like she wasn't is being willfully blind.
She "clearly" just missed the proverbial axe looming over her head (as did Toon Link and Wolf).

Can I ask something, actually?
[collapse="Brawl Instance Slots"]
0x0 MARIO
0x1 DONKEY
0x2 LINK
0x3 SAMUS
0x4 YOSHI
0x5 KIRBY
0x6 FOX
0x7 PIKACHU
0x8 LUIGI
0x9 CAPTAIN
0xa NESS
0xb KOOPA
0xc PEACH
0xd ZELDA
0xe SHEIK
0xf POPO
0x10 NANA
0x11 MARTH
0x12 GAMEWATCH
0x13 FALCO
0x14 GANON
0x15 WARIO
0x16 METAKNIGHT
0x17 PIT
0x18 SZEROSUIT
0x19 PIKMIN
0x1a LUCAS
0x1b DIDDY
0x1c POKETRAINER
0x1d POKELIZARDON
0x1e POKEZENIGAME
0x1f POKEFUSHIGISOU
0x20 DEDEDE
0x21 LUCARIO
0x22 IKE
0x23 ROBOT
0x24 PRAMAI
0x25 PURIN
0x26 MEWTWO
0x27 ROY
0x28 DR_MARIO
0x29 TOONLINK
0x2a TOONZELDA
0x2b TOONSHEIK
0x2c WOLF
0x2d DIXIE
0x2e SNAKE
0x2f SONIC
0x30 GKOOPA
0x31 WARIOMAN
0x32 ZAKOBOY
0x33 ZAKOGIRL
0x34 ZAKOCHILD
0x35 ZAKOBALL
0x36 MARIOD
[/collapse]

This being the supposed priority list we're all referring to, I'd like some clarification. Given, the evidence of Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf being added late in development is a fact that's made all the more apparent with their lack of roles in the SSE... But what other evidence you are referring to in the bold do you mean?

Based on the in-game files, the order of characters does not necessarily match up to when they were programmed. Besides the obvious of Snake and Sonic being dead last in placement, the initial batch of Wario, Meta Knight, Pit, and Zero Suit Samus are relatively lower on this list, which clearly cannot be accurate when they were among the first characters revealed in the game's very first trailer. That said, this list is not chronological. So then there's the question of why Wolf, who has quite a few cut-characters ahead of him, made it in as a character when they didn't. Clearly this list isn't in true order of priority then. This isn't alphabetical or organized by series, either. The closest sense I can make of this is by order of debut, but even that is questionable with Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario thrown after the entire group of Brawl newcomers.

So this leaves me completely confused. What evidence are you referring to in the bold besides their absence from SSE? I'm not even trying to make an argument here, I legitimately want to know what you're talking about. I otherwise don't understand how those three are low priority so much as just simply added late in development. As much of a devil's advocate that seems to what is understood in the community (and possibly common sense), I really do think the question is worth raising: What other evidence of Jigglypuff being "low priority" exists?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Jigglypuff's saving grace other than its long standing veteran status is that it has become Fairy-type, marketing one aspect of X & Y that no other Pokémon can. If anything, it might up its chance, and if Game Freak is smart it'll make it eligible for marketing purposes. Not saying it ups it's chances to making it a lock, but it has that unique trait, where as both Mewtwo and Lucario would represent Mega Evolution, something that I don't think we need two playable representatives for. But of course those two have other merits that should let them in.

I do also want to say that Pokémon Trainer is by far the most heavily marketable Pokémon character right now. Not only are the Kanto starters accessibly early on in X & Y, not only have they gotten Mega Evos (though I don't expect to see them in Smash,) but he also has an anime special dedicated to him, whether it's a movie or a short running series we don't know yet though. These are basically all the things Sakurai said he's looking into with Game Freak. The Kanto starters are very hot right now, they're much more marketable than they were during Brawl, and I pretty much see Pokémon Trainer's chances of returning as 100%, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him on the site next month. Heck, people really overestimate the difficulty of implementing his gimmick too, as long as they can find an alternate way of loading his Pokémons instead of having to load them when you switch out, it should be fine. Do keep in mind that they all don't need to be on the screen at the same time too, if they get loaded pre-battle, then they shouldn't be much of a problem, not even for the criminally underestimated 3DS.

I do find it a little funny how all Pokémon Smash veterans except Pikachu have received changes, Game Freak are obviously acknowledging how big a marketing tool Smash Bros can be.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I have to say Jigglypuff being a Fairy-type does up her chances a bit, but this hasn't really increased her popularity much, to my knowledge. This does give her potential for a new moveset though.

Not saying it ups it's chances to making it a lock, but it has that unique trait, where as both Mewtwo and Lucario would represent Mega Evolution, something that I don't think we need two playable representatives for. But of course those two have other merits that should let them in.

Gotta agree. If the Mega evolutions were to be used as their Final Smashes, (or used by them in some other way) I'd have to say I wouldn't want that for both Mewtwo and Lucario. I don't want anything like the case of the Landmaster Final Smash being shared by three characters.

 

[Deleted member]

People saying Jiggs wasn't on the chopping block are deluding themselves. From her absence in the SSE, to her placement in the data and in some character roll calls, it's pretty clear she was.

This, so much this. I know she's a Smash favorite, but she almost didn't come back. I wouldn't be surprised if she goes missing this next game.

Also, I'd attribute Mewtwo's absence to the possibility of MAYBE being redone, and just scrapped due to time... Who knows though. Jiggs was an easy add though, I'm sure. So perhaps that's her eternal saving grace.

Also Sakurai stated that he wouldn't add Namco characters just because they are working on the game.What Sakurai mean is just because namco is helping making the game does not give them right have more then 1 playable character. He never said that. Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth. You don't get to decide what he meant when you don't even know him. LoL how did you get that from what i said????? :- /

Goddamn son, what's with the multi-colored text??

It hurts my eyes just looking at it!

Though, I'm sure a certain user probably loves it.

 

[Deleted member]

Can I ask something, actually?
[collapse="Brawl Instance Slots"]
0x0 MARIO
0x1 DONKEY
0x2 LINK
0x3 SAMUS
0x4 YOSHI
0x5 KIRBY
0x6 FOX
0x7 PIKACHU
0x8 LUIGI
0x9 CAPTAIN
0xa NESS
0xb KOOPA
0xc PEACH
0xd ZELDA
0xe SHEIK
0xf POPO
0x10 NANA
0x11 MARTH
0x12 GAMEWATCH
0x13 FALCO
0x14 GANON
0x15 WARIO
0x16 METAKNIGHT
0x17 PIT
0x18 SZEROSUIT
0x19 PIKMIN
0x1a LUCAS
0x1b DIDDY
0x1c POKETRAINER
0x1d POKELIZARDON
0x1e POKEZENIGAME
0x1f POKEFUSHIGISOU
0x20 DEDEDE
0x21 LUCARIO
0x22 IKE
0x23 ROBOT
0x24 PRAMAI
0x25 PURIN
0x26 MEWTWO
0x27 ROY
0x28 DR_MARIO
0x29 TOONLINK
0x2a TOONZELDA
0x2b TOONSHEIK
0x2c WOLF
0x2d DIXIE
0x2e SNAKE
0x2f SONIC
0x30 GKOOPA
0x31 WARIOMAN
0x32 ZAKOBOY
0x33 ZAKOGIRL
0x34 ZAKOCHILD
0x35 ZAKOBALL
0x36 MARIOD
[/collapse]

This being the supposed priority list we're all referring to, I'd like some clarification. Given, the evidence of Jigglypuff, Toon Link, and Wolf being added late in development is a fact that's made all the more apparent with their lack of roles in the SSE... But what other evidence you are referring to in the bold do you mean?

Based on the in-game files, the order of characters does not necessarily match up to when they were programmed. Besides the obvious of Snake and Sonic being dead last in placement, the initial batch of Wario, Meta Knight, Pit, and Zero Suit Samus are relatively lower on this list, which clearly cannot be accurate when they were among the first characters revealed in the game's very first trailer. That said, this list is not chronological. So then there's the question of why Wolf, who has quite a few cut-characters ahead of him, made it in as a character when they didn't. Clearly this list isn't in true order of priority then. This isn't alphabetical or organized by series, either. The closest sense I can make of this is by order of debut, but even that is questionable with Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario thrown after the entire group of Brawl newcomers.

So this leaves me completely confused. What evidence are you referring to in the bold besides their absence from SSE? I'm not even trying to make an argument here, I legitimately want to know what you're talking about. I otherwise don't understand how those three are low priority so much as just simply added late in development. As much of a devil's advocate that seems to what is understood in the community (and possibly common sense), I really do think the question is worth raising: What other evidence of Jigglypuff being "low priority" exists?

First, I want to say this unrelated thing:
HOW IN THE HELL DID THEY GET THE FULL LISTING IN WHERE THE MISSING CHARACTERS WERE IN THE LINEUP?!? 0_o
I've been trying to figure it out for about 2 years now!

This absolutely confirms 3 things:
-When Dixie was scrapped as Diddy's partner, she was to be a low priority character on her own.
-Toon Sheik is really a "Toon Sheik", not Tetra.
-Pra Mai is not Plusle and Minun. Nor is it the Random Box (may whoever came up with that logic be shot).

This is pretty much the equivalent to the Missing Link in evolution theory to me!


*Ahem*
But now back to the discussion at hand.
You completely missed my point on WHY the characters are "low priority".

The low priority characters are the characters in-between R.O.B. (technically Pra Mai now) and Snake. Mario through R.O.B. as well as Snake and Sonic are not within this category.
These characters are low priority because they could be scrapped if time would not allow for every character available.
This is why these characters are within expendable clone/semi-clone territory (Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, Toon Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, and apparently Dixie Kong) or are not current "hot ticket" Pokémon (Jigglypuff and Mewtwo).

Why else would Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario be separated from the other veterans and make an otherwise unexplainable block between Pra Mai and Toon Link, both of which would have been Brawl Newcomers?

*Breaks off into previous tangent again*
But this only raises more questions about Pra Mai.....like, who is it? Why were they scrapped? What was their initial purpose?
All this is doing is supporting my theory that Pra Mai was really an original character for Smash that would either have had Sonic's role or would have been someone the Brawlers met IN Subspace that would help them out....
So much cleared up, yet much more unknown.....

 

[Pacack]

First, I want to say this unrelated thing:
HOW IN THE HELL DID THEY GET THE FULL LISTING IN WHERE THE MISSING CHARACTERS WERE IN THE LINEUP?!? 0_o
I've been trying to figure it out for about 2 years now!

This absolutely confirms 3 things:
-When Dixie was scrapped as Diddy's partner, she was to be a low priority character on her own.
-Toon Sheik is really a "Toon Sheik", not Tetra.
-Pra Mai is not Plusle and Minun. Nor is it the Random Box (may whoever came up with that logic be shot).

This is pretty much the equivalent to the Missing Link in evolution theory to me!


*Ahem*
But now back to the discussion at hand.
You completely missed my point on WHY the characters are "low priority".

The low priority characters are the characters in-between R.O.B. (technically Pra Mai now) and Snake. Mario through R.O.B. as well as Snake and Sonic are not within this category.
These characters are low priority because they could be scrapped if time would not allow for every character available.
This is why these characters are within expendable clone/semi-clone territory (Roy, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, Toon Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, and apparently Dixie Kong) or are not current "hot ticket" Pokémon (Jigglypuff and Mewtwo).

Why else would Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario be separated from the other veterans and make an otherwise unexplainable block between Pra Mai and Toon Link, both of which would have been Brawl Newcomers?

*Breaks off into previous tangent again*
But this only raises more questions about Pra Mai.....like, who is it? Why were they scrapped? What was their initial purpose?
All this is doing is supporting my theory that Pra Mai was really an original character for Smash that would either have had Sonic's role or would have been someone the Brawlers met IN Subspace that would help them out....
So much cleared up, yet much more unknown.....

I like this except for one thing...how the heck did you come to the conclusion that the list confirms PRAMAI is not Plusle and Minun?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I like this except for one thing...how the heck did you come to the conclusion that the list confirms PRAMAI is not Plusle and Minun?

Plusle and Minun would have to have two separate files like the Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers is made up two files. Popo and Nana.

If Pramai is Plusle and Minun, why are there not two seperate files like the Ice Climbers?

Also, Golden, you had never seen that list before? It's been posted quite a bit.

 

[IsmaR]

There could have been factors we are not aware of that made them prioritize other characters over any of the Forbidden 7. For all we know, porting Mewtwo/Roy/Doc could have been glitchy, and would have cost previous time they spent working on other characters (Wolf, TL, etc.).

I don't think any of us are Sakurai, nor do I really think it matters much. I also think trends/patterns seen in the last game should have DIED with the last game. Thinking characters are screwed just because of low priority in the last game is silly.

 

[Deleted member]

Except that for the most part, all veterans were made by scratch, not ported.
So that excuse can be slashed off.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Plusle and Minun would have to have two separate files like the Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers is made up two files. Popo and Nana.

If Pramai is Plusle and Minun, why are there not two seperate files like the Ice Climbers?

The Smash wiki suggests that the file may have been a placeholder or starter file, and they may have later been given their own seperate files after some work was done on them.

 

[Deleted member]

I like this except for one thing...how the heck did you come to the conclusion that the list confirms PRAMAI is not Plusle and Minun?

It was already pretty frigging unlikely that it was Plusle and Minun for a wide variety of reasons (name inconsistency, only one file compared to other duos, one Pokémon "slot" more than Mario and Zelda, etc.), but the fact that Popo and Nana have their own Instance Slot data while Pra Mai doesn't means it's not a duo character (And the "but they're unfinished" excuse doesn't work; despite being unfinished, there WOULD be two Instance Slots if it was Plusle and Minun).

The Smash wiki suggests that the file may have been a placeholder or starter file, and they may have later been given their own seperate files after some work was done on them.

The Wiki you're looking at also says Meowth, Pit, Peach, and Wario were planned for Smash 64. And that Roy's data could be for Roy Koopa or Colonel Roy Campbell from Metal Gear Solid instead of the obvious Roy from Fire Emblem, a Melee veteran.
Best to ignore that piece of crap.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I wouldn't be surprised if Meowth was planned for Smash 64, but the others seem very unlikely.

I've found the wiki to be reliable aside from that though. And I didn't mean to say that I believe what the wiki says makes it anymore likely that it was Plusle and Minun.

 

[Deleted member]

Use the better Wiki from now on.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Hmm, thought I was looking at that one you linked, which is the one I usually visit.

I already asked this on the General Discussion thread, but do you guys have any idea when we'll see some pics of Yoshi? And do you think he'll have been revamped like Bowser and Pit were?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Hmm, thought I was looking at that one you linked, which is the one I usually visit.

I already asked this on the General Discussion thread, but do you guys have any idea when we'll see some pics of Yoshi? And do you think he'll have been revamped like Bowser and Pit were?

Yoshi is definitely gonna be confirmed with Yoshi's New Island or Yarn Yoshi, whatever comes first. So yeah, expect him sometime in 2014.

 

[CalumG]

One thing that interests me about that character instance list - who, or what, is 'MARIOD'? Mario is at the top of the list, DR_MARIO is somewhere near the middle, but that last entry interests me. It's been a while since I've played vanilla Brawl (due to Project M) but Mario didn't have any Wario Man-esque transformations, and I don't recall encountering any Mario lookalikes in the single player campaigns, so what is MARIOD all about?

Probably something bland and uninteresting, but it's interesting to me because nobody seems to talk about it like with PRA_MAI. Am I just being a moron and missing some crucial bits of information here? If I had to take a guess, I'd say it's a debug version of Mario, used for anything from testing custom stages and being used in How To Play videos - but I see no reason why they couldn't just use regular Mario for any of those things.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I just came here to say that Toon Sheik is the biggest bull**** in the universe and if you're seriously expecting such a character I really don't know from which galaxy you came from.

That's all.

 

[xXBlazeMonkeyXx]

o3o

That's the most annoying part "I'm okay with that so Sakurai should be too." I'm telling you it's a bad way to represent an overall series that has 6 Generations and over 600 Pokemon.


We already did and our opinion remains the same. I also notice Sakurai often picks retros because they are unique and interesting. I don't see him picking an ugly little girl with a flower over say a Samurai or Arcade Cowboy.

did you really just called Lip a "ugly girl"..... -_-

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm sorry, how does he eat them?

By "eats vegetables ironically", he actually hates the taste of vegetables but still begrudgingly eats them because he doesn't want to upset Fiora. Which in turn causes Fiora to theorize that Shulk has no taste buds.

 

[josh bones]

View attachment 2554 o3o

-Lip is third party, and a retro, 4 third parties are not likely,.
-Ike is too popular to be cut, and not for CHROM.
-

 

[Diddy Kong]

>Calls Lip 3rd party
>Talks about Fire Emblem characters

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

I just came here to say that Toon Sheik is the biggest bull**** in the universe and if you're seriously expecting such a character I really don't know from which galaxy you came from.

That's all.

Tetra is where it's at.
One move I imagine for her is the grappling hook as an Up B. On the ground it can steal items on the stage and items that fighters are holding. In the air it acts as a tether recovery.

Her Toon Zelda transformation would have a magic based moveset, but different from regular Zelda. Maybe some moves taken from her descendant in Spirit Tracks?

----

 

[josh bones]

>Calls Lip 3rd party
>Talks about Fire Emblem characters

-I know shes not third party, I don't know what im saying

 

[Hotfeet444]

Good morning all, hope you all slept well.

So, what's our Topic ATM?

Edit: Before I forget, I must say...Pizzadudeman, your signature...brings a tear to my eye.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Good morning all, hope you all slept well.

So, what's our Topic ATM?

what are our choices?

 

[FlareHabanero]

I'm starting to lose my faith in humanity even more...

 

[?????????????]

Decided to update my roster. I'm gonna do a video about it now, but since the picture is complete, thought I'd share.