Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[?????????????]

Don't pull that on me. I am probably one of the biggest advocates for representing Nintendo's greatest regardless of time periods. You are not representing Pokemon well when there are 6 generations of 600 + Pokemon and you pick 4 from 1. Sakurai probably knows this, he always has a Pokemon from another gen and there are so many Pokemon that are incredibly deserving and not from Gen 1. It really doesn't make any sense for a game like Pokemon. For Mario and Zelda the same characters so commonly appear in the same games as the series progresses while games like Pokemon and Fire Emblem keep switching to more and more new characters. This isn't just about having a Pokemon from a new gen, it's representing MORE of the Pokemon universe rather than 1 part of it.

If we're talking about what I am representing in my own roster, I am representing:

Pikachu and Jigglypuff, our SSB veterans.

Pokemon Trainer, who Sakurai ALREADY picked over having a 3rd gen rep at the time of SSBB, which includes Charizard, an iconic Pokemon with a new Mega Evolution.

Lucario, an iconic Pokemon.

And Mewtwo, also an iconic Pokemon who has been vastly up-played in Gen 6, DESPITE the fact that he is a Gen 1 Pokemon.


If you have a better idea, then by all means, enlighten me.

 

[Bajef8]

It's really stupid to nitpick the Pokemon reps based on generation. That shouldn't matter in the slightest. You pick the ones that are iconic to Pokemon (or in Jiggs case, to Smash itself). If we repped each generation, it'd be way too much. Having 6 Pokemon rep each generation, as well as throwing in Trainer would be overkill. We already have the 5 best reps anyway.

Pikachu and Kanto PKMN Trainer (Red) are the most iconic things from Pokemon. Mewtwo and Lucario are also very iconic and recognized characters from the series, as well as fan favorites. Jiggs should only remain because, as I say over and over, she is iconic to Smash itself, not really Pokemon. Woop-dee-do if 4 of those 5 happen to be Gen 1. It's the most recognized and iconic gen as well.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If we're talking about what I am representing in my own roster, I am representing:

Pikachu and Jigglypuff, our SSB veterans.

Pokemon Trainer, who Sakurai ALREADY picked over having a 3rd gen rep at the time of SSBB, which includes Charizard, an iconic Pokemon with a new Mega Evolution.

Lucario, an iconic Pokemon.

And Mewtwo, also an iconic Pokemon who has been vastly up-played in Gen 6, DESPITE the fact that he is a Gen 1 Pokemon.


If you have a better idea, then by all means, enlighten me.

That's exactly what I'd have. Because it's not just all Gen 1 Pokemon

 

[?????????????]

That's exactly what I'd have. Because it's not just all Gen 1 Pokemon

Great.

 

[xXBlazeMonkeyXx]

- Lip is anything, but the perfect retro. Maybe you should look up Sheriff, it's a much better choice and is more deserving. lip is a character that originate from the super famicom called "panel del pon" it's a puzzle game. (but outside of japan it was change to "tetra attack & pokemon puzzle league") lip wand also appear as a item in melee & brawl. (panel del pon theme song also in brawl) So??? So??? o3o


- Ike is the second most popular lord.do you think sakuari cares how popular a character is.... -_-Yes, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to think he doesn't. i don't know how to response because .... -_- (name a first party character that got in with it's popularity)


-Also Sakurai stated that he wouldn't add Namco characters just because they are working on the game. What Sakurai mean is just because namco is helping making the game does not give them right have more then 1 playable character.

 

[N3ON]

You are comparing the representation of Pokemon to Mario & Zelda. That is not the same thing. Apples & Oranges, dude. I would compare it to say Fire Emblem or EarthBound.

Fundamentally Pokemon is closer to FE and Earthbound in terms of gameplay, sure, but look at how those series have evolved in Smash. Sakurai has only ever added more and more recent characters with FE and Earthbound, he's never reached back for a character older than the newcomers. Those series, due to having primarily rotating casts, tend to focus on new characters when it comes to additions in Smash. Now look at Pokemon. It too has a largely rotating cast, but look at its additions; when the second gen was newest, a first gen was prioritized first, when we had two new gens, three gen ones and one gen four were added. And chances are this time he'll choose Mewtwo over an actual newcomer. Sakurai clearly emphasizes overall impact to the series when adding Pokemon characters, not the "new thing" like FE or Mother., and not representing all gens equally, because not all gens have been equal in terms of impacting the series as a whole. This in fact makes it more akin to Mario or Zelda, where Sakurai has yet to focus on the recent characters added to the series, or flavors of the month, instead focusing on those who have made the greater impact.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's really stupid to nitpick the Pokemon reps based on generation. That shouldn't matter in the slightest. You pick the ones that are iconic to Pokemon (or in Jiggs case, to Smash itself). If we repped each generation, it'd be way too much. Having 6 Pokemon rep each generation, as well as throwing in Trainer would be overkill. We already have the 5 best reps anyway.

Pikachu and Kanto PKMN Trainer (Red) are the most iconic things from Pokemon. Mewtwo and Lucario are also very iconic and recognized characters from the series, as well as fan favorites. Jiggs should only remain because, as I say over and over, she is iconic to Smash itself, not really Pokemon. Woop-dee-do if 4 of those 5 happen to be Gen 1. It's the most recognized and iconic gen as well.

I think you completely misinterpreted what this conversation is about. I don't think anybody here said anything about having 1 Pokemon for each gen. It's about having at least ONE Pokemon from a different gen besides Gen 1. Meaning if we have Lucario then we are all set.

 

[?????????????]

I think you completely misinterpreted what this conversation is about. I don't think anybody here said anything about having 1 Pokemon for each gen. It's about having at least ONE Pokemon from a different gen besides Gen 1. Meaning if we have Lucario then we are all set.

My only point here is that even that shouldn't make a difference. Let's say Lucario didn't exist. Would you still focus on having an arbitrary "non-1st gen Pokemon" purely for the sake of having a Pokemon that wasn't first gen?

 

[Bajef8]

-

That's exactly what I'd have. Because it's not just all Gen 1 Pokemon

-____-

Well you just preached for Gen equality, but you would make a 4/5 Gen 1 roster...

 

[?????????????]

You are not representing Pokemon well when there are 6 generations of 600 + Pokemon and you pick 4 from 1.

What the hell is this about when your next post says this?

That's exactly what I'd have. Because it's not just all Gen 1 Pokemon

 

[IsmaR]

I like how people argue that it doesn't matter if we have an all recognizable and relevant despite recency Pokemon roster. It's highly likely that Sakurai does NOT think the same.

fix'd

It's likely Sakurai thinks in Sakurai logic.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

i don't know how to response because .... -_- (name a first party character that got in with it's popularity)



-Also Sakurai stated that he wouldn't add Namco characters just because they are working on the game. What Sakurai mean is just because namco is helping making the game does not give them right have more then 1 playable character. He never said that. Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth. You don't get to decide what he meant when you don't even know him

-
Well you just preached for Gen equality, but you would make a 4/5 Gen 1 roster...

Tell me exactly when I said each gen should be represented equally.

My only point here is that even that shouldn't make a difference. Let's say Lucario didn't exist. Would you still focus on having an arbitrary "non-1st gen Pokemon" purely for the sake of having a Pokemon that wasn't first gen?

No, because there'd be room for a fifth and Zoroark & Genesect would be next in line of popularity. So I'd pick one because they are popular Pokemon.

What the hell is this about when your next post says this?

Are you not getting this? This whole time I said you shouldn't have JUST 4 from 1 Gen. Meaning there should be a FIFTH one from another gen. The only case we'd have a 4 Character roster of all gen 1 Pokemon is if you'd replace Lucario with Mewtwo.

 

[?????????????]

Are you not getting this? This whole time I said you shouldn't have JUST 4 from 1 Gen. Meaning there should be a FIFTH one from another gen. The only case we'd have a 4 Character roster of all gen 1 Pokemon is if you'd replace Lucario with Mewtwo.

Okay, but I did not replace Lucario with Mewtwo; I have both. If this is what you think, then what I'm not getting is why you said I'm representing Pokemon badly when I'm representing it the exact same way you would.

I guess I did open up with how my roster used to include only 1st gen Pokemon.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Okay, but I did not replace Lucario with Mewtwo; I have both. If this is what you think, then what I'm not getting is why you said I'm representing Pokemon badly when I'm representing it the exact same way you would.

Because I said if you only have 4 Pokemon in the entire game and they are ALL gen 1 then it's represented badly. If you have 4 or 5 and one is from a different gen that would add the variety we need.

 

[Deleted member]

Marshall is by far one of the worst ideas for a character for Rhythm Heaven. Only appeared in one game, and was merely one of three "hosts". And even then, his role really only extended to the Rhythm Test, the game for the credits, and the unlockable endless game Munchy Monk.


Now, the best idea is a Rhythm Monkey. Monkeys are truly the most recurring aspect of the franchise and arguably the most notable, making numerous cameos in WarioWare titles and even having a hat in the 3DS Mii Plaza.
Karate Joe? Recurring, but not really iconic. Also barely represents the series outside the Karate Man games.


Besides, how can you say no to this face?

 

[?????????????]

Because I said if you only have 4 Pokemon in the entire game and they are ALL gen 1 then it's represented badly. If you have 4 or 5 and one is from a different gen that would add the variety we need.

Ah, you missed the "if you only have 4 Pokemon in the entire game" part in your first message. It just said "if you have 4 Pokemon all from one generation." That's why I got confused, because that's exactly what I have +Lucario.

In any case, you made the assumption that I was badly representing Pokemon because my roster did not include Lucario, even after I mentioned Lucario in my first reply at the top of the page.

 

[xXBlazeMonkeyXx]

Also Sakurai stated that he wouldn't add Namco characters just because they are working on the game.What Sakurai mean is just because namco is helping making the game does not give them right have more then 1 playable character. He never said that. Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth. You don't get to decide what he meant when you don't even know him. LoL how did you get that from what i said????? :- /

 

[N3ON]

SaturnGamer, at this point Sakurai doesn't care about representing gens in the least. If all the most deserving characters came from the first gen, those are the ones that would get in. If they were all from the third gen, those would be the ones included. If the most deserving characters were spread out between all gens, we'd get some from each. The fact is the first gen has the vast majority of Pokemon most important to the series, who are the ones Sakurai includes. It's not that including a Pokemon that isn't from first-gen is necessary and that's why we got Lucario, it's that Lucario actually merited inclusion in his mind. If you represent the series with the most popular/impacting/iconic/important characters, even if they all happen to be from the first gen, that's still representing the series well. It's not like representation comes solely from playable characters anyway.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Also Sakurai stated that he wouldn't add Namco characters just because they are working on the game.What Sakurai mean is just because namco is helping making the game does not give them right have more then 1 playable character. He never said that. Don't put words in Sakurai's mouth. You don't get to decide what he meant when you don't even know him. LoL how did you get that from what i said????? :- /

Because you took his words completley out of context and made an assumption based off of something he never said. If he never said "Namco working on the game does not mean they have the right to have more than 1 character" than you can not confirm that he ever mean that. He never said anything remotely implying that. You just made that up.

Here is the statement: "Just because the game is being cooperatively developed with Namco Bandai involved, that doesn’t at all mean that they’d be given any special consideration for having characters in the game,"

In that statement he NEVER said anything about having multiple characters. So he didn't mean that. All he said was that no character from Namco will be added for the sole reason of being from Namco. That's it. Nothing about multiple characters there.

 

[?????????????]

Oh, here's something I was thinking of, and I'm sure plenty of people have thought of it before.

What if Ganondorf was replaced in SSB4 by Ganon? Using his range of magic attacks we've seen in many Zelda titles as well as the trident. He was a boss in Nintendo Land. Maybe he'll even appear in Link Between Worlds.

I don't really expect to happen whatsoever; it's just food for thought. If it did happen, I'd be perfectly okay with that. It still represents the series' most important villain, while actually giving him a befitting moveset. Thoughts?

 

[N3ON]

Oh, here's something I was thinking of, and I'm sure plenty of people have thought of it before.

What if Ganondorf was replaced in SSB4 by Ganon? Using his range of magic attacks we've seen in many Zelda titles as well as the trident. He was a boss in Nintendo Land. Maybe he'll even appear in Link Between Worlds.

I don't really expect to happen whatsoever; it's just food for thought. If it did happen, I'd be perfectly okay with that. It still represents the series' most important villain, while actually giving him a befitting moveset. Thoughts?

Personally I'd take unique Ganondorf over unique Ganon, but I'd take unique Ganon over semi-clone Ganondorf any day, so yeah, I'd be more than fine with that (even though, like you said, it probably won't happen).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

SaturnGamer, at this point Sakurai doesn't care about representing gens in the least. If all the most deserving characters came from the first gen, those are the ones that would get in. If they were all from the third gen, those would be the ones included. If the most deserving characters were spread out between all gens, we'd get some from each.

Prove this

EDIT: If I recall, Lucario was only slightly less popular than Mewtwo and was still higher priority.

The fact is the first gen has the vast majority of Pokemon most important to the series, who are the ones Sakurai includes. It's not that including a Pokemon that isn't from first-gen is necessary and that's why we got Lucario, it's that Lucario actually merited inclusion in his mind. If you represent the series with the most popular/impacting/iconic/important characters, even if they all happen to be from the first gen, that's still representing the series well. It's not like representation comes solely from playable characters anyway.

The point is that we DO have iconic characters from other gens so there is no reason to have an all gen 1 roster. And no, having all gen 1 Pokemon really isn't representing it well. Not to mention Jigglypuff is not essential to the representation of POKEMON, but rather preferable to representation of Smash Brothers. So if we had a 4 character roster I'd imagine Lucario would be in instead of her.

 

[N3ON]

Prove this

The existing Pokemon roster proves this. Not counting Pichu and Jiggs, as having assets originally based on other characters, they were added in part due to ease of implementation, Pikachu, Mewtwo, the Kanto Starters and Lucario are the most popular/impacting/iconic/important feasible-for-Smash characters to the series. And even Lucario is debatable, he's no where near the level of the other three. But tell me, which Pokemon not from the first gen (that is feasible in Smash) is on the level of these four (technically six)?

The point is that we DO have iconic characters from other gens so there is no reason to have an all gen 1 roster.

Again, which Pokemon are these that are as iconic as the existing first gens? And really, it's not a matter of who is iconic, as one could say there are iconic Pokemon from every gen. It's a matter of who is most iconic (as well as the other factors). Sakurai is going to prioritize the most qualified first, and those largely comes from the first gen.

And no, having all gen 1 Pokemon really isn't representing it well.

Why not? Why is adding a character less popular/iconic/important/impacting better representation than one who is more qualified in all those categories? Representing recency is no where near as important as including characters that are actual series staples.

Not to mention Jigglypuff is not essential to the representation of POKEMON, but rather preferable to representation of Smash Brothers. So if we had a 4 character roster I'd imagine Lucario would be in instead of her.

No, at this point in time Jigglypuff is not essential, but veterans do not have to face the same standards once they've already been included. But like I said, Jigglypuff was partly included due to being based on Kirby's model, and even if she wasn't, at the time of her inclusion there weren't any other gens, and she was one of the very most popular in Japan, which does count for a lot, considering the 64 roster was likely made with just Japan in mind, as the plan was to keep it there.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty much on the scope that none of you really get how Pokémon characters are chosen. Especially jarring since Sakurai actually gave us insight on that.

It's not by representing different generations.
It's not by which ones are "important". (Save for one exception)

It's by whichever Pokémon are the "hot ticket". The ones mass marketed, the ones starring in movies, the ones infamous to the world, etc. (Although they also had to be unique as well as a "hot ticket".)
Pokémon Trainer is arguably the only exception to this (outside of Charizard). Trainer was more or less a unique gimmick he wanted to make, and Trainers are rather important to the franchise.

Pikachu is the series mascot, making it the permanent "hot ticket".
Jigglypuff was somewhat a hot ticket back in the day, but really fell hard, which is why it was a low priority in Brawl, and likely to be so again for Smash 4.
Mewtwo was the star of the very first movie and had quite a bit of promotion. However, by Brawl's time, Mewtwo started to fade as other Legendaries took spotlight, explaining why Mewtwo was low priority (and sadly one of the cuts) for Brawl.
Pichu, while added as a late addition joke character clone, was marketed quite a bit in Gen. 2's lifetime. It still was marketed (and still is) alongside its older "cousin" Pikachu since then, but the concept of a joke character clone was arguably a turn-off, and was thus not even considered for Brawl.
Lucario, was the latest movie star by the time Sakurai decided upon Brawl's roster, and was heavily marketed as a mascot for Gen. 4. It still is being marketed to this day, and we're on Gen. 6 now.

There hasn't been a real new "hot ticket" outside of stars of various movies since Lucario. And unlike Lucario, these stars fall as just flavors of the month. Zoroark was the closest one to being a "hot ticket", but Zoroark never really caught on like Lucario did. It makes it even worse when Lucario was brought back into promotion since its successor failed to achieve the same level of fame. Not even Gen. 6 has a "hot ticket" at this point (though that may change in the future after X/Y are released, but it will be too late to influence Smash).
But at the very least, Mewtwo has climbed back up to the top, especially with being the star of the most recent movie (yes, I am aware it's a separate one from the first movie; I'm talking the species in general), showcasing the new Mega Evolutions of Gen. 6 to boot. Hell, it even has TWO Mega Evolutions, something that no other Pokémon has (at this point in time).

So, to give this rant some more meaning, I am now going to express what I feel will be the outcome of Brawl's Pokémon plus Mewtwo.
-Pikachu: Already confirmed, and obviously going nowhere.
-Jigglypuff: Will be low-priority just like in Brawl.
-Mewtwo: Will NOT be low-priority again, and will be higher priority than Lucario for the same reason that Lucario was higher priority than Mewtwo in Brawl. Also likely to have Mega Mewtwo Y somewhere (Mega Mewtwo X is very iffy considering the late reveal).
-Pokémon Trainer: Undeterminable. It really depends on if Sakurai can recreate the 3-in-1 gimmick he had in Brawl or not. Unlikely to be replaced with a new Trainer/Pokémon set if he can, however. Worst case scenario is that Charizard flies solo (no pun intended).
-Lucario: Will be lower priority than Mewtwo, but higher priority than Jigglypuff due to being more marketable.

As for any others, anyone not named "Genesect" is not happening, and Genesect isn't particularly likely at this point either due to the inevitable curse that is "flavor of the month".

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Looks like I came at a good time. Pokemon discussions can be... "interesting."

 

[FalKoopa]

I hope Jiggs gets a Mega-evolution to shake up things again.

 

[N3ON]

@Golden
And if you're not defining "important" as just based on the games but important to Pokemon as a whole, as I was, what is the difference between that and "hot ticket"? Couldn't they be used rather interchangeably?
"Pikachu is the series mascot, making it permanently important.
Jigglypuff was somewhat important back in the day, but really fell hard, which is why it was a low priority in Brawl, and likely to be so again for Smash 4.
There hasn't been a real new important character outside of stars of various movies since Lucario. And unlike Lucario, these stars fall as just flavors of the month. Zoroark was the closest one to being important but Zoroark never really caught on like Lucario did."
etc.

I don't disagree with you, but unless someone is referring to solely the games (since it's clear that's not all Sakurai bases Pokemon inclusion on) I just don't see the necessity in making a distinction.

 

[Deleted member]

Being marketable/popular =/= important.

There is a fine distinction.

EDIT: Best example is Jigglypuff.
Despite being marketed quite a bit back in the day and being popular (rumored to have been the 2nd most popular Pokémon in Japan after Pikachu for a while), Jigglypuff was hardly "important" in any sense.
-Just a random creature you can find in the games.
-Made only a few appearances in the anime as a recurring gag.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I do consider the Jiggs, along with the rest of the original 12 to be the face of Smash. Jigglypuff DID have her chance to return in Melee, and later Brawl, which she did. I'll admit she isn't absolutely essential to Smash, but still relatively important to the series from my point of view. I believe Mewtwo is very likely to return, but theres no telling exactly who the other two Pokemon reps will be.

 

[Deleted member]

Jigglypuff is clearly important to Smash, that's why she was low priority in Brawl.

 

[---]

Am guessing Jigglypuff's big niche in Smash is her gameplay style, but that's just me. Only reason I can think of besides Original 12 as to why she got in over Mewtwo in Brawl. She's definitely not necessary IMO, but she definitely adds a lot I would say.

 

[N3ON]

Being marketable/popular =/= important.

There is a fine distinction.

If the Pokemon that have been "hot tickets" before are largely the highest echelon of popularity such as Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, Lucario, and "sort of" Jiggs at her peak, and even reasonably popular ones such as Zoroark can't be considered "hot tickets" and you yourself describe those that are "hot tickets" as infamous to the world, what really is the difference between that and importance (overall important to the franchise as a whole, not just the games)? Sure, they might not be important to the games, but if a Pokemon reaches that level of notoriety, wouldn't it be apt to call them important to Pokemon as a franchise? Pokemon like that obviously would have a large audience, a large fandom, and even that is cause for importance.

Obviously just being marketable and popular doesn't necessarily translate to importance, but if the only ones who can classify as hot tickets are those stated above as well as characters such as Mew or Lugia (who I assume could also be classified as having been "hot tickets") which are clearly the very top tier of Pokemon in terms of popularity and fame, wouldn't that be cause to dub them as "important" to Pokemon as a whole?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

She still managed to get in regardless.

Meh, I guess that's just my inner Jiggs fan talking. Was there ever an official mention of her being low priority? Or is there just strong evidence that she was?

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: Best example is Jigglypuff.
Despite being marketed quite a bit back in the day and being popular (rumored to have been the 2nd most popular Pokémon in Japan after Pikachu for a while), Jigglypuff was hardly "important" in any sense.
-Just a random creature you can find in the games.
-Made only a few appearances in the anime as a recurring gag.

Meh, I guess that's just my inner Jiggs fan talking. Was there ever an official mention of her being low priority? Or is there just strong evidence that she was?

The bold.

 

[Bajef8]

Jigglypuff is clearly important to Smash, that's why she was low priority in Brawl.

Saying any of the Original 12 not being important to Smash isn't a smart thing to say. They are the originals. The one's who've been in each game to date. You shouldn't discount Jiggs just because you deem her "low priority." Truth is, no one knows how or why the characters were chosen or implemented over others. You can't 100% say she, Wolf & Toon Link weren't in SSE because they were low priority. You can makes good guesses, but you don't know. She's important. Her time to be cut was Brawl, and she clearly made it.

 

[Deleted member]

Saying any of the Original 12 not being important to Smash isn't a smart thing to say. They are the originals. The one's who've been in each game to date. You shouldn't discount Jiggs just because you deem her "low priority." Truth is, no one knows how or why the characters were chosen or implemented over others. You can't 100% say she, Wolf & Toon Link weren't in SSE because they were low priority. You can makes good guesses, but you don't know. She's important. Her time to be cut was Brawl, and she clearly made it.

Honestly, it's smarter than ignorantly following faith in fanmade "Original 12" logic.
And quite frankly, with the strong evidence there is that Jigglypuff was low priority compared to every other character that wasn't Toon Link and Wolf (not just "derp not in SSE"), to act like she wasn't is being willfully blind.
She "clearly" just missed the proverbial axe looming over her head (as did Toon Link and Wolf).

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Exactly what evidence is there? If I recall right, wasn't she listed lower than most characters in the game's data or something?

 

[Bajef8]

Honestly, it's smarter than ignorantly following faith in fanmade "Original 12" logic.
And quite frankly, with the strong evidence there is that Jigglypuff was low priority compared to every other character that wasn't Toon Link and Wolf (not just "derp not in SSE"), to act like she wasn't is being willfully blind.
She "clearly" just missed the proverbial axe looming over her head (as did Toon Link and Wolf).

It's willfully blind to ignore the fact that she is a large part of Smash history, regardless of her importance to Pokemon.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Golden.

Wouldn't Mega Mewtwo Y technically classify as the 6th Gen mascot?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The Jiggs has still had a good history with Smash. IIRC she was only added to the first game because of her popularity in the anime at the time, yet she still returned in Melee. She may have been low priority in Brawl, but she still made it. Aside from Master Hand, the closest Smash has to a face of the series are the original 12. All of them have been in every game thus far.