Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Scoliosis Jones]

If I were to cut a few out of my roster, I could easily get 45 without counting sheik, zss, etc... However, the only characters I would be alright with cutting really are Jigglypuff and Toon Link. Everyone else is pretty much justified in staying if you ask me. Maybe one of either Falco or Wolf along with them.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Two cuts seem unnecessary though.
47 characters is a fine number still, but 48 a little over the board though.
45 or 47 is the best number for me.

 

[Berserker.]

YOU DARE DISRESPECT JIGGLYPUFF?!?!?! TASTE THE POWER OF F TIER-ISM

MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA






Just kidding

 

[TumblrFamous]

YOU DARE DISRESPECT JIGGLYPUFF?!?!?! TASTE THE POWER OF F TIER-ISM

MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA






Just kidding

That is horrifying.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Here's a roster with 47 characters:

Wolf was a risky cut for me though.
Although I feel it's a little big for some reason, maybe I should go back to 45.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Poll: Do you guys prefer the final roster at 45 or 49?

What do I prefer? 49. What do I expect? 45.

The Brawl cast makes 35. Then we have the three newcomers, which makes 38. That still gives room for 6 more newcomers, and that would still put us at 44. 9 newcomers total. When Sakurai outright stated that we're getting less newcomers this time around that seems more than enough. Ridley, Mewtwo, and Little Mac. Whoa, even with those high-profile folks, that's still quite the handful of character slots left over that could go towards keeping characters from being cut (if you're pessimistic), adding a third-party (if you're optimistic), or just simply adding another 3 characters (what a concept!).

45 is an absolutely realistic number at this point. Any higher is getting one's hopes up. Any lower is still no excuse for cutting veterans given the amount of leftover roster room there still is at a cushiony 6 slots.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Can I just mention something? It's been bothering me.

I really just can't get over the fact that so many users on this site basically praise Sakurai like a deity.

He's the head of development for Smash Bros. There is no disputing his influence on what happens in the series and what he does. But I feel that people overlook the fact that he is employed by NINTENDO to create this game.

What does that mean you ask? It means that at the end of the day, Nintendo probably has power to say who is getting in and who isn't. If they let Sakurai have complete control over that, then who knows what the roster would look like?

Some of us ask for characters like Roy or K.Rool, or even Isaac or an obscure character. Why wouldn't Sakurai put them in over other choices like Chrom, Dixie or some other dude? Well i'll tell you why, it's because Nintendo has an agenda.

While some of their activity is absurd to people, Nintendo directs attention to specific things. Take The Wonderful 101 for example. Sure, it didn't do very well at launch (it still has time to redeem itself. I think it's a great game). Because Sakurai is making a Nintendo game with Nintendo characters, it is very likely and possible that he is in the loop with what Nintendo has planned, which means he has to have had some sort of knowledge of what the game was, who the characters were, etc... This doesn't mean that Wonder Red is a shoe in, but he has to know who he is

It is because of reasons such as this, that I am led to believe that newer characters may be shuffled into Smash in accordance to newer marketing. In other words, K.Rool has significant competition with Dixie, and that is because Nintendo wants people to focus on what's new. If most of the additions were from older editions of games, it would be dry. Smash Bros. needs a mix of old and new. They can't just start adding characters from 7+ years ago unless they have remained in their agenda, or in the metaphorical face of the fanbase. This is why Roy has serious competition with Chrom, and Isaac has serious competition with newer IP's that Nintendo has a lot more focus on. I mean we haven't heard anything Golden Sun related in a LONG time.

Palutena and Ridley? They're probably exempt from this idea. Palutena is basically the 2nd most important character in Kid Icarus. She played a major role in the newest game. It only makes sense to add her. Ridley is an extremely iconic character from an important franchise for Nintendo. It makes sense to add him because he's iconic and always relevant to Metroid.

K.Rool, while relevant to the hearts and minds of fans, may not be relevant to the future of Donkey Kong Country Returns. It doesn't look like he'll be in the new one at this point, and if he isn't in the one after, what is his fate? Quite honestly, this may be what ultimately kills his chances. Diddy could be used as an argument, but he was still appearing frequently, he later appeared in DKCR (which Sakurai probably knew was coming. Not saying that was the primary reason for Diddy). This isn't to say that older characters should be replaced in favor of newer ones. Especially if they are important to their series (Marth, Ike, etc...).

What i'm saying is that there is a cause and effect spectrum for Smash. Sakurai won't add characters strictly because of their popularity. It has to make sense for a character to be included based on a number of different things. What is the ultimate decision maker? Money.

However, we Smash fans unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, are not the majority here. The WORLD is the majority. Nintendo needs to advertise to everybody. Who would they pick to do this? Characters that are recognizable. How likely is it that the younger audience is going to recognize K.Rool if the 3DS is their first system? Not very likely at all.

This isn't to say that ONLY recent characters matter. But not being recent is absolutely a negative, or at least not being a focus of Ninty's agenda is a huge detracting factor.

This will probably get shuffled under the rug and ignored, but there are quite a few people who (in regards to Smash) ignore everything but a set criteria by other users on the internet. Not everything on the internet is true you know.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Here's a roster with 47 characters:

Wolf was a risky cut for me though.
Although I feel it's a little big for some reason, maybe I should go back to 45.

for the most part, I really like this roster.

Also, 45 sounds good. I mean, unless the last four are really good, I'd rather just take 45.

Can I just mention something? It's been bothering me.

I really just can't get over the fact that so many users on this site basically praise Sakurai like a deity.

He's the head of development for Smash Bros. There is no disputing his influence on what happens in the series and what he does. But I feel that people overlook the fact that he is employed by NINTENDO to create this game.

*Clap*

Also, let me add that while Sakurai has control, when there's more producer's involved (Unless they're very agreeable. See: Rare's brothers), they HAVE less control. I don't care for what you've been hearing about Sakurai being a god, this much is legitimate fact in any gaming studio.

Plus, you also have all the programmers and animators. If they think, for example, that Ridley is a programming disaster or that clones would be easy to do in, my god will they do it. This has been proven time and time again.

I'm not saying Sakurai has no control whatsoever, but in terms of roster, and especially as the game as a whole, it's not as much as you'd like to believe. I know this from studying my ass off for being a producer. Welcome to reality, and have a nice seat.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

*snip*

While that is an excellent point by far, Scoliosis, I do have have to beg the question of the opposite. Wouldn't a character's addition be the very thing that gives them the recognizability prior to a game with them even coming out? What I mean is that Smash Bros. isn't just used to pool together potential advertising--it's also there to start it.

Take Pit for example. He was not an overly popular character prior to making it into Brawl. In fact, you could say he was pretty obscure to the world that we're oh so advertising to. Yet, a new Kid Icarus game was made thanks to Pit's popularity. His joining the roster made everyone demand a Kid Icarus Wii. His obscurity turned into early advertising and created demand, in other words.

The same can be said for Mr. Game & Watch, at least in terms of Club Nintendo and cameos. There was literally no sight or mention of Game & Watch in the N64 era and beyond. There was no reason to bring attention to him, after all. Without his appearance in Melee and Brawl, we wouldn't have various appearances with him, from WarioWare to Donkey Kong Country Returns to being a friggin' attraction at Nintendo Land. Likely anyone who played his attraction will recognize him in the Smash Bros. because it was his initial appearance in Smash Bros. that no longer made him obscure.

Hell, I'll even go as far as to say that EarthBound would be nowhere near its current fame if Smash Bros. didn't introduce worldwide players to the largely under-appreciated series. I love EarthBound, but I will say it now: I wouldn't have given EarthBound the time of day in the first place had I not already known Ness from Smash Bros. His appearance in the roster is what made me want to see him later, both in his own games and future games.

And that's the power of adding obscurity into Smash Bros. It no longer becomes obscure. Hence, while Smash Bros. is there to advertise what's being marketed, it's also there to make characters marketable in the first place.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

While that is an excellent point by far, Scoliosis, I do have have to beg the question of the opposite. Wouldn't a character's addition be the very thing that gives them the recognizability prior to a game with them even coming out? What I mean is that Smash Bros. isn't just used to pool together potential advertising--it's also there to start it.

Take Pit for example. He was not an overly popular character prior to making it into Brawl. In fact, you could say he was pretty obscure to the world that we're oh so advertising to. Yet, a new Kid Icarus game was made thanks to Pit's popularity. His joining the roster made everyone demand a Kid Icarus Wii. His obscurity turned into early advertising and created demand, in other words.

The same can be said for Mr. Game & Watch, at least in terms of Club Nintendo and cameos. There was literally no sight or mention of Game & Watch in the N64 era and beyond. There was no reason to bring attention to him, after all. Without his appearance in Melee and Brawl, we wouldn't have various appearances with him, from WarioWare to Donkey Kong Country Returns to being a friggin' attraction at Nintendo Land. Likely anyone who played his attraction will recognize him in the Smash Bros. because it was his initial appearance in Smash Bros. that no longer made him obscure.

Hell, I'll even go as far as to say that EarthBound would be nowhere near its current fame if Smash Bros. didn't introduce worldwide players to the largely under-appreciated series. I love EarthBound, but I will say it now: I wouldn't have given EarthBound the time of day in the first place had I not already known him from Smash Bros. His appearance in the roster is what made me want to see him later, both in his own games and future games.

And that's the power of adding obscurity into Smash Bros. It no longer becomes obscure. Hence, while Smash Bros. is there to advertise what's being marketed, it's also there to make characters marketable in the first place.

Believe me when I say the obscure characters get in there most likely to mix it up, as Sakurai doesn't like characters filled to the brim with expected characters. He likes to add his own personal spice on things.

But those characters are special cases. When you take Isaac for example, he COULD be a surprise addition and be put in to spark interest in a new game. But that's part of Nintendo's agenda. If that isn't in their plans, then he might not have a chance in hell. Same for K.Rool. If they acknowledge the fact that he has superior popularity, that might get him in if Nintendo decides to run with said popularity and put the spotlight back on him in the future. But with Tropical Freeze, at this point it certainly doesn't look like he's going to show up.

The ratio of not obscure to obscure is rather slanted in the direction of not obscure. Fitting obscure characters in because they're obscure works when adding one or two per game, but not if the majority are obscure and out of nowhere. Know what I mean?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

smash bros IS marketing, one way or another. There's not a single character, asides from R.O.B., to my degree of knowledge, that doesn't market something.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

smash bros IS marketing, one way or another. There's not a single character, asides from R.O.B., to my degree of knowledge, that doesn't market something.

Exactly.

With this idea in mind, I am asking users to ask themselves:

At this point in time, why will Nintendo add K.Rool over Dixie if he isn't in Tropical Freeze?

At this point in time, why will Nintendo have Roy over Chrom if he hasn't been a main character in several years and isn't being advertised as heavily?

At this point in time, how does Golden Sun stack up to other newer series that Nintendo is pushing on it's audience? (W101, "X")

The answer to these questions may vary, and whatever answer is reached doesn't mean anything from our standpoint I suppose. But these I hope will make people think about the chances of particular characters.

I REALLY like K.Rool too. I ain't no hater.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to point out that on the K. Rool issue, even if Tropical Freeze didn't exist, Dixie would still be heavy competition with him.

-Dixie's got a large amount of requests as well; K. Rool is not the monopoly of DK popularity.
-Dixie (while it was as a tag-partner to Diddy) was planned for Brawl.
So no, there's no sort of "hidden agenda corrupt government propaganda" in regards to it. All Tropical Freeze does is ever so slightly tips the scales in Dixie's favor.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm not saying there's some conspiracy. It's just what Nintendo is currently marketing/advertising and what they aren't. As of now, it does not appear that K.Rool is in the cards unless they pull a fast one and he appears in Tropical Freeze...which would be awesome.

 

[Deleted member]

What Nintendo is doing however, doesn't necessarily pertain to Sakurai.
He does whatever the hell he wants.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So K. Rool is in high favor then, or in the middle?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

What Nintendo is doing however, doesn't necessarily pertain to Sakurai.
He does whatever the hell he wants.

To an extent.

He is employed by Nintendo. They have power over what he does. That's basic business. He is employed to do what they hired him to do. If he just started adding random characters that make little sense to add at the moment, i'm sure Nintendo would be all over him. Sure, Sakurai got Snake in as a favor, and Nintendo wasn't too keen on that idea, but they went along with it.

This is still Nintendo's game, with their characters (and some of his) as well. He does not have absolute power over what happens in the game. Nintendo may trust him to make the game, but you best believe that they are right there with him in the development.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Believe me when I say the obscure characters get in there most likely to mix it up, as Sakurai doesn't like characters filled to the brim with expected characters. He likes to add his own personal spice on things.

But those characters are special cases. When you take Isaac for example, he COULD be a surprise addition and be put in to spark interest in a new game. But that's part of Nintendo's agenda. If that isn't in their plans, then he might not have a chance in hell. Same for K.Rool. If they acknowledge the fact that he has superior popularity, that might get him in if Nintendo decides to run with said popularity and put the spotlight back on him in the future. But with Tropical Freeze, at this point it certainly doesn't look like he's going to show up.

The ratio of not obscure to obscure is rather slanted in the direction of not obscure. Fitting obscure characters in because they're obscure works when adding one or two per game, but not if the majority are obscure and out of nowhere. Know what I mean?

I know what you mean, but I still disagree. Was it Nintendo's agenda to add Lucas, the character of a now-ended series? How about Pokemon Trainer, when FireRed and LeafGreen were over with a long time ago? Ice Climbers? R.O.B.? And what about Little Mac, Starfy, Isaac, and Saki, who got new games in their own series later despite being mere Assist Trophies? Hell, Wolf was playable, and we've gotten nothing hair nor hide of Star Fox since Command (which they didn't even stylize him after). There's just so many exceptions to this "agenda" that it hardly seems like an agenda at all. Characters are added as characters, their presence creates demand for another game, and games are made regardless of whether or not people are asking for them. If Sakurai truly is as stuck with Nintendo's agenda as we're to believe, then this isn't what's really showing me it. All this really does show me is that if there is an agenda, it's second-banana to Sakurai's own decisions.

No, Sakurai's not a deity, as sad as it is that many people believe he is. He is, however, a director. He won't add characters simply for being recent and new. He won't select a cast that's relevant for the upcoming 2014-2015 launch schedule. He's shown us before that he wants to create a cast that's timeless, I don't think any of us can deny that. Whatever the higher-ups have in store for Nintendo's IPs, I don't believe Smash Bros. has any bearing from it. Content like stages are taken from recent games, yes, but said content is not added in the first place simply for being new at the time. We're not a shoe-in to get a Wonderful 101 stage or character, for example, simply because it's one of the Wii U's biggest recent releases. We can expect a Wind Waker HD stage, however, for the reason that it's relevant to the cast and Sakurai's own decisions. He's not obligated add Toon Link or any bit of that timeline in the first place simply for WWHD being new, but it makes plenty of sense to accommodate said sub-series when it fits within the rest of his own direction for the game.

If Isaac is added, it'll be based on his own merits, not because there's already another Golden Sun in the works. If we get a new Golden Sun after his reveal, it's either a coincidence in development timing or on part of newfound demand for a Golden Sun. Placement for an agenda in that logic is far from plausible. Smash Bros. compiles and starts advertisement, not just one or the other. I'd hope I don't come off as naive merely for thinking so.

 

[BKupa666]

"Relevance" is and continues to be a sloppy and undefined term because it's just thrown out there with the expectation that everyone has a mutual understanding of what it means and why it's important, when it's far from cut and dry. Is Little Mac as relevant as Wonder Red, for example? A few years exist between their most recent games, but they're both still counted as relevant and probable characters because...well, um, because! And Little Mac's last appearance was only a year apart from K. Rool's last appearance, but he's irrelevant because...well, um, because Dixie appeared again! Five years since Little Mac's last appearance don't matter at all, but just an extra year for K. Rool? His chances died, dude. Arbitrary, arbitrary, arbitrary.

God Robert's Cousin summed it up pretty nicely, but the principle of retro characters being added in the first place throws a large wrench into 'relevance,' along with a handful of other characters. Diddy, for example, wasn't added to Brawl in 2005 to promote Donkey Kong Country Returns, which began development in 2008, unless you want to claim it was to showcase his starring role in Mario Strikers Charged or something.

I'll also throw out that publicity is publicity, be it for past, present or future games (and present games are only present for so long). That, and we have no way of predicting which characters are in or out of Nintendo's agenda, considering what ended up happening with the Koopalings, and none of the examples listed are close to their league in terms of being 'old.'

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I know what you mean, but I still disagree. Was it Nintendo's agenda to add Lucas, the character of a now-ended series? How about Pokemon Trainer, when FireRed and LeafGreen were over with a long time ago? Ice Climbers? R.O.B.? And what about Little Mac, Starfy, Isaac, and Saki, who got new games in their own series later despite being mere Assist Trophies? Hell, Wolf was playable, and we've gotten nothing hair nor hide of Star Fox since Command (which they didn't even stylize him after). There's just so many exceptions to this "agenda" that it hardly seems like an agenda at all. Characters are added as characters, their presence creates demand for another game, and games are made regardless of whether or not people are asking for them. If Sakurai truly is as stuck with Nintendo's agenda as we're to believe, then this isn't what's really showing me it. All this really does show me is that if there is an agenda, it's second-banana to Sakurai's own decisions.

No, Sakurai's not a deity, as sad as it is that many people believe he is. He is, however, a director. He won't add characters simply for being recent and new. He won't select a cast that's relevant for the upcoming 2014-2015 launch schedule. He's shown us before that he wants to create a cast that's timeless, I don't think any of us can deny that. Whatever the higher-ups have in store for Nintendo's IPs, I don't believe Smash Bros. has any bearing from it. Content like stages are taken from recent games, yes, but said content is not added in the first place simply for being new at the time. We're not a shoe-in to get a Wonderful 101 stage or character, for example, simply because it's one of the Wii U's biggest recent releases. We can expect a Wind Waker HD stage, however, for the reason that it's relevant to the cast and Sakurai's own decisions. He's not obligated add Toon Link or any bit of that timeline in the first place simply for WWHD being new, but it makes plenty of sense to accommodate said sub-series when it fits within the rest of his own direction for the game.

If Isaac is added, it'll be based on his own merits, not because there's already another Golden Sun in the works. If we get a new Golden Sun after his reveal, it's either a coincidence in development timing or on part of newfound demand for a Golden Sun. Placement for an agenda in that logic is far from plausible. Smash Bros. compiles and starts advertisement, not just one or the other. I'd hope I don't come off as naive merely for thinking so.

I partially agree.

You do not sound naive at all. No worries there. My beef with people comes from the fact that they think Sakurai does everything and does this, that, and other stuff too.

Several characters that you listed were justified by other criteria. Lucas was the newer protagonist in Mother, Ice Climber are retro, as was Pit. R.O.B is the character that nobody expected, like Wii Fit Trainer. Pokemon Trainer I can't really put my finger on, but the others I feel have a decent explanation.

Not every character gets in based on what's new. But quite a few do, whether it's a big reason or a small one.

Ike and Lucario. At the time, they were the newest icon of their series. There are other merits to them, but facts are facts. They were the newest characters. IS mentioned Ike most likely because THEY wanted Ike advertised. Whether Sakurai chose him for that reason be damned. THAT was likely why IS chose Ike. It's their profit motive.

Lucario was the new Pokemon Icon. It made sense to include him for the same reasons we're arguing for Mewtwo now. He' s in the spotlight and very relevant to new feature in the game.

I don't like to speak in definitive answers, and I won't start now. But there are waaaaay too many people who think Sakurai gets to do literally whatever he wants. That just doesn't make any sense. Maybe if he was a 3rd party developer making his own game. But these are Nintendo's properties we're talking about here. Sakurai could get pissed off and mess up a few characters. Do you think they'd be ok with that? Probably not.

As far as compiling and starting advertisement, I agree. I never said it only compiles. But there are certain characters who may fall fate to the fact that they are dormant or nowhere to be found.

One other thing. With Wind Waker HD. Toon Link makes the most sense going off of that game. But what if Sakurai decided to add Masked Link? Would that make sense? Not really. Majora's Mask doesn't have any plans at this point for a remake, so adding him simply wouldn't make sense a this point in time.

EDIT: Here's my definition for Relevance in reference to Smash.

It's whether or not a character is making regular appearances in specific series and when those appearance were. It's mostly applicable to series that present more than one candidate, such as Donkey Kong, Fire Emblem, etc...)

How is it applicable? Take Chrom v. Roy. Roy hasn't been relevant to anything but the DLC in Awakening since his game years ago. So what sense would it make to put Roy over Chrom as a newcomer? If it makes sense to add Roy over Chrom, then pretty much any lord should be in the mix. The only thing Roy has over them is his previous appearance in Smash. That's basically it.

Remember, i'm not talking about cutting. So i'm not saying Chrom should replace Ike because Ike isn't relevant or something like that. I'm saying that some characters are going to have a tough time competing with other candidates to be added to the roster.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Well, I probably won't be on here for a while guys. I've been up in NY for about a week due to a family emergency, and I'm swamped with work. I will be able to get oon on Friday.

Adieu, I say. Try not to miss me.

 

[Deleted member]

To an extent.

He is employed by Nintendo. They have power over what he does. That's basic business. He is employed to do what they hired him to do. If he just started adding random characters that make little sense to add at the moment, i'm sure Nintendo would be all over him. Sure, Sakurai got Snake in as a favor, and Nintendo wasn't too keen on that idea, but they went along with it.

This is still Nintendo's game, with their characters (and some of his) as well. He does not have absolute power over what happens in the game. Nintendo may trust him to make the game, but you best believe that they are right there with him in the development.

Considering how there are plenty of examples of characters that don't make sense from a marketing standpoint (and character styles that don't as well) that aren't Snake within the scope of the franchise and that Iwata pretty much told Sakurai in an interview that "[Nintendo] wouldn't be able to add any new elements to the game without your help", seems to me that Nintendo's influence doesn't really put Sakurai in a potential stranglehold.
Going by both Brawl and Smash 4, it's less that they "trust" him that it is that they feel he's the only one capable of heading the projects and they practically FORCE him to do so, while letting him do what he feels is right.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Considering how there are plenty of examples of characters that don't make sense from a marketing standpoint (and character styles that don't as well) that aren't Snake within the scope of the franchise and that Iwata pretty much told Sakurai in an interview that "[Nintendo] wouldn't be able to add any new elements to the game without your help", seems to me that Nintendo's influence doesn't really put Sakurai in a potential stranglehold.
Going by both Brawl and Smash 4, it's less that they "trust" him that it is that they feel he's the only one capable of heading the projects and they practically FORCE him to do so, while letting him do what he feels is right.

Right. I'm not trying to say they have him as a slave working to do everything they want him to. As I have stated, not every single character added is because they are the new and exciting thing, but some are. Nintendo and Sakurai both have their fair share of input. But we have to remember that Sakurai is employed by Nintendo to make a game with their properties.

I firmly believe that Nintendo has a lot more say than people think. But that may just be me.

 

[BKupa666]

The mistake users make of pretending Sakurai has absolute power also hinges on the fact that the man portrays himself that way. He's on record talking about how "he decides what goes into the game, nobody else" and that "Smash needs his strong personal criteria" (the latter of which is paraphrased from Gamespot), and is by far the most visible member of the team with his website updates and comments as well. The tallest nail gets pounded on first, so to speak.

I think K. Rool and Roy are a far cry from any number of random Nintendo properties that the case of Nintendo pushing back can be made for (Wart and Link's Uncle being my prime examples), but that's more in the ballpark of importance to individual series as a whole, not who's the latest fad to come and go. Lumping all those characters together just because of not appearing in certain games is, as said before, sloppy...kind of like claiming two politicians are the same because one told a lie while the other told dozens.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

He does talk about himself that way, you know, like no other producer does.

In all fairness I can see why. Producer's do communicate a lot, so even if he isn't that powerful, he can still feel that way.

And that's why producer is a lovely job.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy not appearing in recent games (though this is technically not true due to Awakening and the upcoming FE X SMT) is probably not the main reason Sakurai would exclude him.

No matter how much Roy fans try to justify his appearance in Smash (before I continue, I'm not against Roy; just that the truth about him is something they don't want to hear), it doesn't change the fact he was a late added clone decided upon because "I think people would like him and would want to try out his series". And was low-priority in Brawl, likely to have been a clone once more (or semi-clone judging by Ganondorf and Falco).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

SUBJECT CHANGE OUT OF ****ING NOWHERE!

My friends and I play Brawl, and we initiate "The Curse of Ganon". Basically, if you win a match, you can choose to be Ganondorf. If that player wins the match as Ganondorf, they are allowed to choose another player to be a second Ganondorf. So on and so on, and when all four are Ganondorf, we have a "Ganon Fight".

Whoever emerges victorious from this is crowned King of Smash Bros. It is a truly glorious event. Actually pretty hilarious when i'm trying to charge at somebody as Ganondorf but it just ends up looking like he is trying to improve his cardio .

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I don't know about you, but I feel Anna appearing in 12 FE games seems viable to me.

That doesn't mean anything. Just because she appeared in more games than most Fire Emblem characters doesn't mean she's automatically guaranteed a spot...which is something you don't understand and/or too stubborn to admit it

 

[BluePikmin11]

Well the thing really going for Anna is her uniqueness as a Trickster. She has a good chance if Sakurai researches about Fire Emblem.

 

[BKupa666]

Roy was planned for Brawl and has a new design. He's a lock, like Mewtwo, Little Mac and...ah, Chrom.

But really, he faces the misfortune of being in one of the RPG series without a consistent cast, and with a plethora of new faces that could feasibly be added for the same reasons he was in Melee.

 

[Hawk Flindaeton]

What'd be funny is if the mii was one of the creators!

 

[Morbi]

Roy was planned for Brawl and has a new design. He's a lock, like Mewtwo, Little Mac and...ah, Chrom.

But really, he faces the misfortune of being in one of the RPG series without a consistent cast, and with a plethora of new faces that could feasibly be added for the same reasons he was in Melee.

I don't really think Roy being planned for Brawl makes him a lock. Would that make Dr. Mario a lock as well? Either that, or I am not catching your sarcasm (which could be the case). I can't really be too hypocritical though. I also believe Mewtwo is a lock due to mostly arbitrary reasons.

 

[Gune]

Well the thing really going for Anna is her uniqueness as a Trickster. She has a good chance if Sakurai researches about Fire Emblem.

What exactly does she do as a "trickster" I Know its supposed to be unique and all but we have at least 3 other people who are tricksters also.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Well the thing really going for Anna is her uniqueness as a Trickster. She has a good chance if Sakurai researches about Fire Emblem.

But is she a Lord? No. Is she important to the story? Not from what I've seen. It's very simple: if you're not a Lord, you got NO chance.

 

[Bajef8]

While that is an excellent point by far, Scoliosis, I do have have to beg the question of the opposite. Wouldn't a character's addition be the very thing that gives them the recognizability prior to a game with them even coming out? What I mean is that Smash Bros. isn't just used to pool together potential advertising--it's also there to start it.

Take Pit for example. He was not an overly popular character prior to making it into Brawl. In fact, you could say he was pretty obscure to the world that we're oh so advertising to. Yet, a new Kid Icarus game was made thanks to Pit's popularity. His joining the roster made everyone demand a Kid Icarus Wii. His obscurity turned into early advertising and created demand, in other words.

The same can be said for Mr. Game & Watch, at least in terms of Club Nintendo and cameos. There was literally no sight or mention of Game & Watch in the N64 era and beyond. There was no reason to bring attention to him, after all. Without his appearance in Melee and Brawl, we wouldn't have various appearances with him, from WarioWare to Donkey Kong Country Returns to being a friggin' attraction at Nintendo Land. Likely anyone who played his attraction will recognize him in the Smash Bros. because it was his initial appearance in Smash Bros. that no longer made him obscure.

Hell, I'll even go as far as to say that EarthBound would be nowhere near its current fame if Smash Bros. didn't introduce worldwide players to the largely under-appreciated series. I love EarthBound, but I will say it now: I wouldn't have given EarthBound the time of day in the first place had I not already known Ness from Smash Bros. His appearance in the roster is what made me want to see him later, both in his own games and future games.

And that's the power of adding obscurity into Smash Bros. It no longer becomes obscure. Hence, while Smash Bros. is there to advertise what's being marketed, it's also there to make characters marketable in the first place.

This exactly.


Let's not also forget Roy in this statement. He's probably the biggest example of this. Roy got very popular because of Smash, and I'd even venture to say most of his popularity stems from Melee.

Scoliosis also brought up relevance in Smash. I want to argue Jiggs a bit more using this. The fact that she, and let's say other "obscure" characters such as Ness or Captain Falcon, have appeared in every Smash to date, I believe, makes them relevant to Smash itself. Playing Smash without Ness, Falcon, or even Jiggs would feel strange to me. I think the fact that they have appeared in every installment almost cements their places in every future Smash, just because they've been a part of it so long. They may not be relevant now-a-days or even a relevant character in a relevant series, but anyone who has played the series will not forget about them. They're too classic to Smash itself to be removed.

 

[Morbi]

But is she a Lord? No. Is she important to the story? Not from what I've seen. It's very simple: if you're not a Lord, you got NO chance.

How is that relevant? I just think that most of the popular Fire Emblem characters happen to be lords. Just because we haven't seen a non-lord in a whopping 2 games doesn't mean Smash 4 won't have a non-lord.

 

[Jaedrik]

That doesn't mean anything. Just because she appeared in more games than most Fire Emblem characters doesn't mean she's automatically guaranteed a spot...which is something you don't understand and/or too stubborn to admit it

Aye, it may not mean much to you, but I daresay that the sum and fact of her appearances and function throughout the Fire Emblem series warrant serious consideration, especially if you're Sakurai or Intelligent Systems.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

How is that relevant? I just think that most of the popular Fire Emblem characters happen to be lords. Just because we haven't seen a non-lord in a whopping 2 games doesn't mean Smash 4 won't have a non-lord.

its Fire Emblem: until that barrier is broken (which I don't think is happening in this game), its still Lords only. If Anna was to get in Smash, it's AT, sticker, trophy for sure.

 

[jaytalks]

Sakurai loves his WTF. He's already revealed one at E3, so there's probably one left in the game.

After you get around the main characters, Sakurai goes for recurring side characters. Anna is the most recurring of all.

The chances are low, but not impossible.

What exactly does she do as a "trickster" I Know its supposed to be unique and all but we have at least 3 other people who are tricksters also.

Trickster is a class from Fire Emblem. It's promoted from thief class, which mean it retains the skill of steal (or lockpicking in fire emblem). They rely on high luck, speed, and are acrobat who are unaffected by the changes in the stage.

 

[Morbi]

This exactly.


Let's not also forget Roy in this statement. He's probably the biggest example of this. Roy got very popular because of Smash, and I'd even venture to say most of his popularity stems from Melee.

Scoliosis also brought up relevance in Smash. I want to argue Jiggs a bit more using this. The fact that she, and let's say other "obscure" characters such as Ness or Captain Falcon, have appeared in every Smash to date, I believe, makes them relevant to Smash itself. Playing Smash without Ness, Falcon, or even Jiggs would feel strange to me. I think the fact that they have appeared in every installment almost cements their places in every future Smash, just because they've been a part of it so long. They may not be relevant now-a-days or even a relevant character in a relevant series, but anyone who has played the series will not forget about them. They're too classic to Smash itself to be removed.

Yes. A priority in making a sequel is to include various things from the original source material. Getting rid of one of the original 12 would be a horrendous mistake now. If they got rid of Jiggs or Captain Falcon in Melee? It would have been natural, perhaps even a good decision. It would have felt awkward and unnecessary if they decided to throw one of the 12 out in Brawl. However, it would be detrimental to the continuity of the series to throw out characters that people have been playing for a decade. They might not be important to Nintendo anymore, they might not be important to their own franchise anymore, but they ARE important to Smash. That is relevance at its finest. That is the only relevance that should be used to determine who makes the cut. Who is relevant to Smash? Not who is relevant to Fire Emblem (just an example)!