Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[God Robert's Cousin]

The biggest gripe I have with Toad is that there's a major identity crisis of The Toad versus A Toad. Red-spotted Toad is the most famous iteration, yet there's hundreds of Toads in the games, it seems like. Castle Toads, Item House Toads, Toads of Toad Town, Toad this and that... I mean, the fact that "the" Toad has the same name as his entire species gives him problem with individuality. You'd have just as easy of a time telling me Goomba should be a Smash Bros. character, since they're plentiful and there have been playable Goombas in parts of the Mario series.

I see it as a similar thing to the Waddle Dee as a character idea. It works on part of how there are notable Waddle Dees and Toads throughout their series, but it hurts their chances on already being a part of being someone's moveset. You can't validate one without validating the other, in other words. That said, I'd like Waddle Dee myself, but for the same reasons I see Toad, Waddle Dee feels very unlikely.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The biggest gripe I have with Toad is that there's a major identity crisis of The Toad versus A Toad. Red-spotted Toad is the most famous iteration, yet there's hundreds of Toads in the games, it seems like. Castle Toads, Item House Toads, Toads of Toad Town, Toad this and that... I mean, the fact that "the" Toad has the same name as his entire species gives him problem with individuality. You'd have just as easy of a time telling me Goomba should be a Smash Bros. character, since they're plentiful and there have been playable Goombas in parts of the Mario series.

I see it as a similar thing to the Waddle Dee as a character idea. It works on part of how there are notable Waddle Dees and Toads throughout their series, but it hurts their chances on already being a part of being someone's moveset. You can't validate one without validating the other, in other words. That said, I'd like Waddle Dee myself, but for the same reasons I see Toad, Waddle Dee feels very unlikely.

I am REALLY tempted to bring up Yoshi...
I wish I could add to this... But Yoshi is pretty much what you described.


I can definitely see some clash because of Peach's Neutral B. The playable Toad would be bigger.

 

[TheCreator]

Unrelated because I have no input on the current topic, besides liking that kid link art,

I ****ing hate talking smash bros. characters with my IRL friends on facebook chat. They have no ****ing idea what they are saying....you'd think they would accept that I know what I'm talking about after it was like a 6 v. 1 argument about Megaman, me being the one, saying it was going to happen, and them saying there was no chance. They continue to tell me how Bayonetta is a given, and how she is important to Nintendo....and I'm just done. lol

It's clear people on this forum are on a different level of smash prediction. That'll get us them ladies, eh?

I have no argument against Toad because he's a perfectly viable character, only thing I could use against him is that other characters get more requests, which in reality doesn't matter much. But; I don't want or support Toad. lol

 

[shinhed-echi]

All because of its exclusivity. Yeah, people over at the SEGA forums are also convinced Bayonetta will be in SSB (despite her not even showing up in All Stars Racing, lol)

Anyway.. I have a feeling tomorrow's going to be a sucky pic. Three great updates in a row, and I might suspect a delay to 2015.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I am REALLY tempted to bring up Yoshi...
I wish I could add to this... But Yoshi is pretty much what you described.

I can definitely see some clash because of Peach's Neutral B. The playable Toad would be bigger.

I think my point still stands that Yoshi isn't a part of anybody's moveset, though that does raise a good point. Either way, I've yet to see a moveset that truly feels exclusive to Toad. Like, the ideas I've seen before with using ? Blocks and going into bubbles sounds so universal, like a Koopa or Shy Guy could just as easily inherit those abilities, unlike something as truly species exclusive as Yoshi's tongue.

Not that a Block-based moveset seems out of character for Toad, per say. It's just that the whole "borrowing items" niche is already taken up by the Villager and already seems to be the driving point for Miis, making it seem like a scape-goat moveset those without any particular skills like the Villager, Miis, and Toad are all subjected to just to be considered for Smash Bros.

Show me a moveset of things only Toad can do, can I could at least see his merits above the Miis.

 

[Deleted member]

He only shares the name of his species outside Japan.
Here, he's Toad the Toad.
In Japan, he's Kinopio the Kino.

Honestly, they should have changed his name up a bit to avoid the confusion. Even if it's something stupid like "Toadimer" or whatever.

 

[IsmaR]

The difference being that the Yoshi made famous by Smash is actually a specific Yoshi. Either he's based on the one that saved Baby Mario/Luigi and/or generally goes up against Bowser Jr. and Kamek, or he's one of the 7 Star Children/grew up to the one Mario rides most of the time.

In a similar lieu, Bandana Dee is specifically King Dedede's right hand man and a recurring character in the series.

The only Toads that are not-generic characters usually have names, primarily Toadsworth and all the ones in the spin-offs.

That all said, I don't think it should matter. Toad is more than iconic enough even without having a specific one be the "poster child" of the sub-species. I think they would go with the blue-vest-red-mushroom-head version as he shows up most in spin-offs, as far as playable Toads go.

Edit: Or apparently what Golden said. Ironically it's the inverted situation for numerous other generic Mario species. I.E.:Magikoopas are the name in English, with Kamek being their leader. In Japan, Kamek is the name of the species, with the notable one being "THE Kamek." Even specific ones like Kammy/Kamella just have ___ Kamek as their names (Boss Kamek, Psycho Kamek, etc.).

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

He only shares the name of his species outside Japan.
Here, he's Toad the Toad.
In Japan, he's Kinopio the Kino.

Honestly, they should have changed his name up a bit to avoid the confusion. Even if it's something stupid like "Toadimer" or whatever.

Interesting. Which games in specific feature Kinopio versus just having playable Kino?

 

[shinhed-echi]

I think my point still stands that Yoshi isn't a part of anybody's moveset, though that does raise a good point. Either way, I've yet to see a moveset that truly feels exclusive to Toad. Like, the ideas I've seen before with using ? Blocks and going into bubbles sounds so universal, like a Koopa or Shy Guy could just as easily inherit those abilities, unlike something as truly species exclusive as Yoshi's tongue.

Not that a Block-based moveset seems out of character for Toad, per say. It's just that the whole "borrowing items" niche is already taken up by the Villager and already seems to be the driving point for Miis, making it seem like a scape-goat moveset those without any particular skills like the Villager, Miis, and Toad are all subjected to just to be considered for Smash Bros.

Show me a moveset of things only Toad can do, can I could at least see his merits above Miis.

Ugh, but that means I have to dig into Wario's Woods where I think he was playable alone. :S And that doesn't look like a Game that entices me.

I would make another SMB2 based gameplay, like Peach, but with other stuff she missed, like the mentioned Crouch-charge, the flying carpets, Phanto (which I would adore, or at least as an item).


The only thing I recall Toad is capable of doing by himself is gaining a strange boost in speed when he carries something over his head, so you can bet at least his Grab move will be a lot of fun.

But yeah, I too mentioned Peachs's neutral special still poses a problem for Toad.

 

[shrooby]

The biggest gripe I have with Toad is that there's a major identity crisis of The Toad versus A Toad. Red-spotted Toad is the most famous iteration, yet there's hundreds of Toads in the games, it seems like. Castle Toads, Item House Toads, Toads of Toad Town, Toad this and that... I mean, the fact that "the" Toad has the same name as his entire species gives him problem with individuality. You'd have just as easy of a time telling me Goomba should be a Smash Bros. character, since they're plentiful and there have been playable Goombas in parts of the Mario series.

I see it as a similar thing to the Waddle Dee as a character idea. It works on part of how there are notable Waddle Dees and Toads throughout their series, but it hurts their chances on already being a part of being someone's moveset. You can't validate one without validating the other, in other words. That said, I'd like Waddle Dee myself, but for the same reasons I see Toad, Waddle Dee feels very unlikely.

In terms of the Mario continuity Toad is very similar to Yoshi (who is in turn similar to Waddle Dee), both are the name of species that has one significant member of the species name (only in English. Just in case you didn't know Toad's Japanese name is different from the species name so it's usually made clear if it's THE Toad versus a Toad). The playable Toad that appears in Mario Kart, Mario Party, Super Mario Bros 2, and Wario's Woods is THE Toad. The Toad that is the leader of the Toad brigade is THE Toad.

However, even if this wasn't the case, the Toad species as a whole plays a significant role in the Mario universe, just like the Yoshi species does. Whether or not the Yoshi in Smash is THE Yoshi doesn't really matter since it supposed to be representing a character(s) that play a huge role in the series, just like Toad would.
The same argument could be applied to almost any reoccurring enemy, yes, I agree, but aside from just being a reoccurring species Toads are put in the series in many more ways than just NPCs like most enemies (the only one this doesn't apply to is Koopa Troopa and maybe Boo and Dry Bones). Toads, or rather THE Toad, is playable in most Mario spinoffs, unlike Goombas which are only playable in the Mario Baseball games (and everyone and their mother is playable in that).

Waddle Dee's case is a little different in terms of "interfering" (for lack of a better word) with movesets since the Waddle Dee that is usually brought up to be playable sets itself apart via bandana. Having "Bandana Dee" be playable wouldn't "interfere" (for lack of a better word) in the same way it would with Peach's since it would be clear that they're distinct. Not that it should that big an issue since, as you said, there are hundreds of Toads. I for one am on board with changing Peach's neutral-B to Toadsworth since, given his position, it makes more sense.

EDIT: Darn it, spent so long typing this that half of what I said has already been said...

 

[Deleted member]

Show me a moveset of things only Toad can do, can I could at least see his merits above the Miis.

While I have raised the point that Toad doesn't have much exclusive to him, this is kind of pushing too far.
Especially when you consider that before she was in Smash, Peach didn't really have much exclusive to her either. Nor did Luigi, really.

And like them (and plenty of other characters in Smash) there is also the route of having something completely original for the sake of Smash.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Ugh, but that means I have to dig into Wario's Woods where I think he was playable alone. :S And that doesn't look like a Game that entices me.

I would make another SMB2 based gameplay, like Peach, but with other stuff she missed, like the mentioned Crouch-charge, the flying carpets, Phanto (which I would adore, or at least as an item).


The only thing I recall Toad is capable of doing by himself is gaining a strange boost in speed when he carries something over his head, so you can bet at least his Grab move will be a lot of fun.

But yeah, I too mentioned Peachs's neutral special still poses a problem for Toad.

I remember playing Wario's Woods on the Gamecube Animal Crossing. Fun game, very clever for its time.

So being a SMB2 synopsis character? Between Peach's floating and her turnips, I feel like she already covers that niche... Especially since she also covers the niche of having Toad, too.

Also, the idea of a Phanto item is absolutely amazing. I'd love it.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

The Upward Special from Mario 2 is obvious, but imagine his other specials would revolve solely around Items from Mario games. IMO Paper Mario is the best and most unique choice of all, he should have been in since Melee and I'm confident Sakurai will finally add him this time. It just makes so much sense and there's a lot of requests.

In terms of the Mario continuity Toad is very similar to Yoshi (who is in turn similar to Waddle Dee), both are the name of species that has one significant member of the species name (only in English. Just in case you didn't know Toad's Japanese name is different from the species name so it's usually made clear if it's THE Toad versus a Toad). The playable Toad that appears in Mario Kart, Mario Party, Super Mario Bros 2, and Wario's Woods is THE Toad. The Toad that is the leader of the Toad brigade is THE Toad.

However, even if this wasn't the case, the Toad species as a whole plays a significant role in the Mario universe, just like the Yoshi species does. Whether or not the Yoshi in Smash is THE Yoshi doesn't really matter since it supposed to be representing a character(s) that play a huge role in the series, just like Toad would.
The same argument could be applied to almost any reoccurring enemy, yes, I agree, but aside from just being a reoccurring species Toads are put in the series in many more ways than just NPCs like most enemies (the only one this doesn't apply to is Koopa Troopa and maybe Boo and Dry Bones). Toads, or rather THE Toad, is playable in most Mario spinoffs, unlike Goombas which are only playable in the Mario Baseball games (and everyone and their mother is playable in that).

Waddle Dee's case is a little different in terms of "interfering" (for lack of a better word) with movesets since the Waddle Dee that is usually brought up to be playable sets itself apart via bandana. Having "Bandana Dee" be playable wouldn't "interfere" (for lack of a better word) in the same way it would with Peach's since it would be clear that they're distinct. Not that it should that big an issue since, as you said, there are hundreds of Toads. I for one am on board with changing Peach's neutral-B to Toadsworth since, given his position, it makes more sense.

So could Shy Guy work as a Yoshi character? I mean he has some established characters.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

I remember playing Wario's Woods on the Gamecube Animal Crossing. Fun game, very clever for its time.

So being a SMB2 synopsis character? Between Peach's floating and her turnips, I feel like she already covers that niche... Especially since she also covers the niche of having Toad, too.

Also, the idea of a Phanto item is absolutely amazing. I'd love it.

One thing I'd like Toad to have would be the ability to carry opponents and heavy items over his head like Donkey Kong as a reference to his power in SMB2. Peach had her floating ability, so I don't see why not.

----

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

In terms of the Mario continuity Toad is very similar to Yoshi (who is in turn similar to Waddle Dee), both are the name of species that has one significant member of the species name (only in English. Just in case you didn't know Toad's Japanese name is different from the species name so it's usually made clear if it's THE Toad versus a Toad). The playable Toad that appears in Mario Kart, Mario Party, Super Mario Bros 2, and Wario's Woods is THE Toad. The Toad that is the leader of the Toad brigade is THE Toad.

Fair enough, I suppose. I just don't personally support Toad is the easiest way to go about it. The fact that there is a specific Toad rather than generic Toads assigned as playable throughout the series does boost the merit I see in him, though. The only other question remains... Do we really need another Mario character at all?

While I have raised the point that Toad doesn't have much exclusive to him, this is kind of pushing too far.
Especially when you consider that before she was in Smash, Peach didn't really have much exclusive to her either. Nor did Luigi, really.

And like them (and plenty of other characters in Smash) there is also the route of having something completely original for the sake of Smash.

If we did go the original route, what exactly could he do without being another scavenger-type fighter like the Villager? I'm not opposed to this, I'm just curious with where you might be going with this.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

But yeah, I too mentioned Peachs's neutral special still poses a problem for Toad.

Just replace him with Hearts. But, I'd rather he stay part of Peach.

 

[shrooby]

So could Shy Guy work as a Yoshi character? I mean he has some established characters.

It could. But should Shy Guy be playable? I don't think so since Shy Guys aren't quite as iconic as other enemies in the Mario series (I know what you're thinking, but "Mario" refers to all of the sub-series). I feel including Shy Guy over another more iconic Mario enemy, say, Koopa Troopa, would just be a reason for the Yoshi series to get another character, versus for the sake of the character itself. Which goes into what I'm about to go into next...

The only other question remains... Do we really need another Mario character at all?

Series alone such as Zelda, Pokemon, Metroid, Donkey Kong, or Super Mario (the big ones) don't warrant or not warrant characters. Characters within those series warrant spots. One argument for Ridley is that Metroid should have another rep, but that isn't really why he should be included. He should be included because of the role he plays within such a large series. Same goes for Toad. He serves an important role in the series and shouldn't be thrown aside just because the series he's in may or may not deserve another character.

 

[Glaciacott]

The thing about Toad is that in the multiplayer Mario games he's one of the playable characters, and recently Mario has had tremendous influence through those games (New Super Mario Bros. Series.) So even though a lot of people see Toad in his playable form from SMB2, I'd wager if he made it in Smash it'd be more in tribute to the New Super Mario series as well as the upcoming Super Mario 3D World.

Yes, the character doesn't have as much of a personality, and that is one of the reasons I don't want it as much as others. But in terms of playability for a Mario rep, Toad completes the series by having the four main playable characters (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad) and the main villian (Bowser.)

And given his relevance is mainly in New Super Mario Bros., his moveset would probably incorporate items from those games given than the toad houses are where you obtain items and lives. So for example, the copter hat could be an Up B, the ice flower Standard B, The penguin forward B, and the raccoon tail/cat suit Down B. You could even make it so using specials changes your suit and then movement is affected by whichever you have on.

 

[Deleted member]

If we did go the original route, what exactly could he do without being another scavenger-type fighter like the Villager? I'm not opposed to this, I'm just curious with where you might be going with this.

That is a question that is impossible to answer.
I mean, before Melee, would you have guessed Luigi would fire himself like a missile or Peach would rush into people with her ass and make them explode?

But what we know already could give some ideas on what Toad could be given.
In Melee and Brawl, Toad was established to use spores as means to attack, something not commonly seen in the Mario series.
Mario Sports Mix took a step further and showed off a power to spawn giant mushrooms used to ram people and either block him or the area of his shots depending on what sport is being played.

So that's something that can be expanded upon, at least.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It could. But should Shy Guy be playable? I don't think so since Shy Guys aren't quite as iconic as other enemies in the Mario series (I know what you're thinking, but "Mario" refers to all of the sub-series). I feel including Shy Guy over another more iconic Mario enemy, say, Koopa Troopa, would just be a reason for the Yoshi series to get another character, versus for the sake of the character itself. Which goes into what I'm about to go into next...

Shy Guy seems to be the most iconic Yoshi character besides Yoshi if you don't count Baby Mario.

Series alone such as Zelda, Pokemon, Metroid, Donkey Kong, or Super Mario (the big ones) don't warrant or not warrant characters. Characters within those series warrant spots. One argument for Ridley is that Metroid should have another rep, but that isn't really why he should be included. He should be included because of the role he plays within such a large series. Same goes for Toad. He serves an important role in the series and shouldn't be thrown aside just because the series he's in may or may not deserve another character.

Yeah, I think Metroid & Kid Icarus are fine with just the main character, but Palutena has become the Zelda of Kid Icarus and Ridley is the Bowser of Metroid.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Series alone such as Zelda, Pokemon, Metroid, Donkey Kong, or Super Mario (the big ones) don't warrant or not warrant characters. Characters within those series warrant spots. One argument for Ridley is that Metroid should have another rep, but that isn't really why he should be included. He should be included because of the role he plays within such a large series. Same goes for Toad. He serves an important role in the series and shouldn't be thrown aside just because the series he's in may or may not deserve another character.

That's the thing though. Aside from Super Mario Bros. 2, how many Mario games are there when the Toad is essential to the story? Would it make any difference if a different character hosted the stars in Mario Party? 3 and 6 have certainly shown that it wouldn't. Would the Mario Kart games' cast feel incomplete if Toad wasn't one of the starting racers on a regular basis? Mario Sports? Mario RPGs? Anything?

Toad is a major character in the series, given, but in the same sense as Tingle is a major character in Zelda. Mario, Peach, and Bowser form an essential trio to the series that Link, Zelda, and Ganon form in their Triforce trio standing. One could remove Luigi from a Mario game and replace Toon Link with a different Link in Wind Waker. It'd make no absolutely deep difference, but the change is certainly noticable. Toad and Tingle themselves, while each beloved, do not add anything absolutely crucial to their series that the story and/or gameplay could not function without. Don't get me wrong, I'd love Tingle in Smash Bros., but the character himself isn't deserving of playable status to the same extent that someone like Ridley or Little Mac are. It's hard to have a Metroid without Ridley (only 3 games in the series lack his appearance). It's hard to have a Punch-Out without Little Mac (or an alteration of, considering the Super Punch-Out protagonist is nameless). It's not hard to have a Mario game without Toad. So if the Wario Bros. were playable instead of Toads in NSMB Wii and U, we wouldn't be lost. If the Starmen themselves hosted Mario Party rather than Toad, we wouldn't be lost. Replacing Bowser as the villain is an important story element. Replacing Toad as an extra is a mere change. Do you see the difference?

So it's the fact that you're bringing this down to the characters themselves that suddenly draws me away from Toad more than I was earlier. Mario is a big series, but it has all the characters it needs. Kirby has all the characters it needs. Earthbound. Star Fox. So on. The fact that it can have more characters on part of them being a staple to their series does not put them in the same priority bracket as other highly requested newcomers. If we're adding Toad because Mario deserves a 5th character on its sheer importance and popularity to Nintendo, that's one thing. Adding "the guy we see a lot but can go without" as the one of the precious few newcomers this time seems to be a rather bold move. More-so than I'd personally like, at least.

 

[IsmaR]

It makes me incredibly sad that Shy Guy is more popular than Kamek as a Yoshi rep.

That said I don't mind and actually like Shy Guy, though I think the majority of his popularity comes from the Mario series games, not the Yoshi ones.

 

[shrooby]

Shy Guy seems to be the most iconic Yoshi character besides Yoshi if you don't count Baby Mario.

My main gripe with Shy Guy is that the enemy does not serve that big a role in the series. It's just that, an enemy that happens to appear in most installments (and has more sub-species than I care to count). Not a significant villain or protagonist. Shy Guy isn't like, say, Koopa Troopa because Koopa Troopa, on top of being a very frequent enemy, is also playable in most Mario spin-offs. Kind of becoming part of the main cast rather than just being an enemy.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

That is a question that is impossible to answer.
I mean, before Melee, would you have guessed Luigi would fire himself like a missile or Peach would rush into people with her *** and make them explode?

But what we know already could give some ideas on what Toad could be given.
In Melee and Brawl, Toad was established to use spores as means to attack, something not commonly seen in the Mario series.
Mario Sports Mix took a step further and showed off a power to spawn giant mushrooms used to ram people and either block him or the area of his shots depending on what sport is being played.

So that's something that can be expanded upon, at least.

I don't know if I would have gone for Green Missile or Peach Bomb as move ideas, given, but I think there was more to pull from them as far as potential movesets than, say, a character who never had a single playable appearance at the time beyond sports games and Mario Kart. The fact that Toad is Peach's Neutral Special, the move that gets spread to Kirby when he copies their signature abilities, hints to me further than Sakurai may have shared the same believe that making a moveset for Toad would have had to warrant much more creativity than the main four in Mario. For a series as rife with potential for characters as Mario, I could at least comprehend why he'd assign Toad to such an "unplayable" position.

Though I have to admit, representing the mushrooms themselves? Surprisingly misrepresented in Smash Bros. beyond being an item, now that I think of it. That's a niche I can live with. Niche being the keyword, however, as it still doesn't come across to me as something about the Mario universe that needs to be represented in playable form when the items do that perfectly well.

 

[Sebz]

I do NOT want Toad as a playable character. His voice is just so URRRGGHH, it's freaking maddening. "WWRROOAH YEAH"- SHUT THE HELL UP!
Just take a listen, and if you're not driven completely mad by it, then you're probably not human:

*Disclaimer: This post may contain hyperbole.*

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I do NOT want Toad as a playable character. His voice is just so URRRGGHH, it's freaking maddening. "WWRROOAH YEAH"- SHUT THE HELL UP!
Just take a listen, and if you're not driven completely mad by it, then you're probably not human:

*Disclaimer: This post may contain hyperbole.*

Brb cleaning the blood out of my ears.

 

[MagnesD3]

Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario is a character I can get behind.

 

[shrooby]

That's the thing though. Aside from Super Mario Bros. 2, how many Mario games are there when the Toad is essential to the story? Would it make any difference if a different character hosted the stars in Mario Party? 3 and 6 have certainly shown that it wouldn't. Would the Mario Kart games' cast feel incomplete if Toad wasn't one of the starting racers on a regular basis? Mario Sports? Mario RPGs? Anything?

Toad is a major character in the series, given, but in the same sense as Tingle is a major character in Zelda. Mario, Peach, and Bowser form an essential trio to the series that Link, Zelda, and Ganon form in their Triforce trio standing. One could remove Luigi from a Mario game and replace Toon Link with a different Link in Wind Waker. It'd make no absolutely deep difference, but the change is certainly noticable. Toad and Tingle themselves, while each beloved, do not add anything absolutely crucial to their series that the story and/or gameplay could not function without. Don't get me wrong, I'd love Tingle in Smash Bros., but the character himself isn't deserving of playable status to the same extent that someone like Ridley or Little Mac are. It's hard to have a Metroid without Ridley (only 3 games in the series lack his appearance). It's hard to have a Punch-Out without Little Mac (or an alteration of, considering the Super Punch-Out protagonist is nameless). It's not hard to have a Mario game without Toad. So if the Wario Bros. were playable instead of Toads in NSMB Wii and U, we wouldn't be lost. If the Starmen themselves hosted Mario Party rather than Toad, we wouldn't be lost. Replacing Bowser as the villain is an important story element. Replacing Toad as an extra is a mere change. Do you see the difference?

So it's the fact that you're bringing this down to the characters themselves that suddenly draws me away from Toad more than I was earlier. Mario is a big series, but it has all the characters it needs. Kirby has all the characters it needs. Earthbound. Star Fox. So on. The fact that it can have more characters on part of them being a staple to their series does not put them in the same priority bracket as other highly requested newcomers. If we're adding Toad because Mario deserves a 5th character on its sheer importance and popularity to Nintendo, that's one thing. Adding "the guy we see a lot but can go without" as the one of the precious few newcomers this time seems to be a rather bold move. More-so than I'd personally like, at least.

I do see your point. But, here's the thing, Toad may not have that significant a role in many of the games he appears in, I won't argue with that, but he has established himself as a character that reoccurs consistently within this huge franchise where characters get easily lost. He is not important to the story of most Mario games (excluding that one you mentioned and presumably 3D World), but he has established himself as a character that reoccurs in a certain role (helps out with random tasks, but usually does little else). Just like Luigi set himself as Player 2. If Luigi, like Toad, were replaced early on in the Super Mario series nobody probably would care. But they weren't. They established themselves in this role that really nobody really cares about. And because of this they appear consistently in spin-offs. So to answer the first set of questions, while not as integral as having Bowser, Peach, Mario, if a spin-off lacked Toad in some way, yes I feel it would make a difference. And I feel that most people that play Mario games would think it would make a difference. The roster in Mario Kart DS I felt was incomplete without Toad (same with Koopa Troopa, but that's irrelevant). Just like how if pre Luigi-is-not-just-Player-2 games such as Mario Kart 64 and Mario Party lacked Luigi, even if he wasn't that important.

But, as I said, I do understand your main point. Toad isn't as integral to the series as Mario, Peach, and Bowser are. And he hasn't done as much to stand out of his not-so-important role as Luigi has. But to say that if he was today suddenly replaced by some other extra...most Mario fans wouldn't exactly be okay with it. I won't say you didn't make me question my stance on Toad AT ALL, but I still think he's a worthy addition, as a familiar face that most Ninty fans would recognize. But, don't get me wrong, if I had to choose between a character as important as Ridley and Toad...I would go with Ridley in a heartbeat. Toad Shouldn't be at the top of the priority list, but he should at the very least be on that list somewhere.

And, on Tingle. He would get not just on his incredibly unimportant re-occurrences in the series, but because he has his own tiny series! *ahem* Toad also has his own game *ahem* Granted, you could argue that the star of those games could've been anyone else. But it was Tingle because he's awesome!

Man, I'm sorry I prepared another wall of text for you. There just so much to say about this for me.

EDIT:

His voice is just so URRRGGHH, it's freaking maddening. "WWRROOAH YEAH"- SHUT THE HELL UP!

Even given all of my bias I still agree with this.

 

[StupendousMike]

Toad is the Jimmy Olsen of the Mario games, and I mean that as a compliment. He's usually there, a comforting presence in a sense, even when he doesn't have much to do with what's going on.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if I would have gone for Green Missile or Peach Bomb as move ideas, given, but I think there was more to pull from them as far as potential movesets than, say, a character who never had a single playable appearance at the time beyond sports games and Mario Kart. The fact that Toad is Peach's Neutral Special, the move that gets spread to Kirby when he copies their signature abilities, hints to me further than Sakurai may have shared the same believe that making a moveset for Toad would have had to warrant much more creativity than the main four in Mario. For a series as rife with potential for characters as Mario, I could at least comprehend why he'd assign Toad to such an "unplayable" position.

Peach barely had anything. Just Super Mario Bros. 2 (same as Toad), and Super Mario RPG, which had very little that would be viable for Smash.
Luigi? This was the time that he was just "Mario #2", with the sole exception of having higher jumps and lower traction in Super Mario Bros. 2 and Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels. Luigi had nothing exclusive to himself otherwise, having the same exact abilities as Mario in every game he was in. And then we have to consider that there were games that Mario was in that Luigi wasn't.
And it seems you have forgotten Wario's Woods existed, which had Toad as the main character, and it gave him the ability to carry enemies and bombs over his head and stack them, even being able to lift entire stacks (essentially where the "superhuman strength" aspect of Toad came from), chuck them, kick them, and run up walls. So it's not like Toad had nothing.
Toad really has no other stiff competition other than the possibility of Dixie Kong and K. Rool, but we're probably just going to get only one of them unless we get Diddy/Dixie like Sakurai intended in Brawl.

Toad's exclusion from Smash has nothing to do with some perceived notion that he has nothing to work with (which is a bs excuse in itself given he made an entire moveset for Captain Falcon when all he did was drive a car). In Melee, BOTH Bowser and Peach were added. Sakurai didn't want to include even Wario along with them, and he was in the Top 5 in requests on his poll, and higher than Toad, who was the 4th most requested Mario character. This shows me that adding anyone else would have been overpopulating the franchise in his mind. Why Dr. Mario was added later in development with that knowledge, I don't know. But being an easy clone idea probably outweighed the overpopulation concept.
In Brawl, we got Wario and Diddy Kong, two characters within the Mario universe that happen to be a part of other franchises. Notably no main Mario character was considered, and Dr. Mario was planned as a low-priority character.

Though I have to admit, representing the mushrooms themselves? Surprisingly misrepresented in Smash Bros. beyond being an item, now that I think of it. That's a niche I can live with. Niche being the keyword, however, as it still doesn't come across to me as something about the Mario universe that needs to be represented in playable form when the items do that perfectly well.

I'm not talking about power-up mushrooms.
I'm talking giant masses of fungus used as weapons and obstacles.

Like for example, have Toad spawn a mushroom from the ground in front of him that flings an opponent skyward as an Up Smash. Or have Toad create a large mushroom that serves as a temporary wall for a Special Move.

On top of that, you have spores themselves as attacking method, such as Super Smash Bros. Crusade giving Toad an attack where he uses a burst of spores that hits both sides of him.

Throw in something like the Power Squat Jump from SMB2, a stacking move ala Wario's Woods (and possibly some multi-colored bombs of varying strength and effect), a stunning headlamp from his stint as the Toad Brigade Captain in the Galaxy games (perhaps have it work like the flashing light in Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon), the Toad Brigade itself for a FS, make him a pint-sized powerhouse with a fast dash and low jumps, and an ability to temporarily run up walls, etc., and you have a recipe for a unique moveset that fits Toad and no one else.

 

[Swift Fox]

rep Wario series for lulz I guess >_>
Sakurai ain't gonna add characters for lulz
Yes he did, just look at Wii Fit Trainer. Nobody asked for it!

Moveset potential with her staff
Doesn't matter because Star Fox has enough characters. Not to mention Krystal's staff is a little outdated and she doesn't even use it anymore. Sakurai isn't really known for representing StarFox Adventures. All SF reps have the same moves so she doesn't even fit in.
In Smash bros, there's little to no such thing as "overrep/underrep" or "outdated".

Too many spots taken by pokemon, so there should be transform some sort of, like Red.
But, there aren't any gen starters famous enough. Having to switch between previously playable Pokemon would be annoying and disappointing. It would take a lot of Dev time as well.
SSB team did have lot of hard works on Red back in Brawl time. But when Leaf was going to have two veteran pokemon, it'd save time working on their movesets, and for leaf's animation they can just borrow Red's animation as well.
Leaf: model, uses all Red's stage animation excepts only Winning/Loser animation. (x0.125)
Pichu: model update, moveset idea completed, needs minor updates to de-clone Pikachu. (x0.25)
Purin: model update, moveset idea completed. (x0.25)
Eevee: model, moveset. (x1)

Leaf would be equivalent to x1.625 development time for new-comer VS x3.25 for Red back in Brawl time.

It CAN happen!
Geno, Naruto, and Homer Simpson CAN happen, but that doesn't mean it will. Villager basically deconfirms Tom Nook as the character representing the series. Tom Nook is completely pointless. That's like making a character from a Game & Watch game alongside Mr. Game & Watch.
Geno? Homer Simpson? LOLWHAAAT? You must be kidding! Tom Nook isn't like THAT ridiculous characters! I'd take it as your opinion.

Moveset potential
Poo is not a main character from Mother, FE & EB only have main characters. Plus Poo is a completley random choice. Porky and Ninten are the only remotely possible ones to pick from.
Not only.

They were in FEA.
Lots of characters fight together in games. They were a team not a duo, they just helped each other out in battle. But they are 2 different sizes and abilities and having 2 rather tall swordsman does not work like having 2 small hammer Eskimos. It's pointless anyway and their move set would have to rely on eachother to work.
I see, but it can work out as "duo", right?! I got Chrom+Lucina duo idea from the "leaker" guy and I actually like it I can leave out Lucina and only have Chrom in.

Goroh couldn't be happening thanks to Takamaru, so I give it to Black Shadow, he can take over Ganondorf's old moves. Bandanna Dee was playable in Kirby Dream Returns for the Wii + Sakurai is the director of Kirby series
Sakurai was at first afraid to add Kirby reps in Melee because he was the creator. Also Kirby has all the main characters necessary and Waddle Dee is perfectly fine as part of King Dedede.
I see, that's soemthing new to me!

The roster rating you got is completely fair.
Thank you!

I think you need a 2nd Metroid rep too.
I am stuck on that one.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

-Snip-

That's a fair enough point. Again, I'm not saying that Toad has no merit whatsoever to being in Smash Bros., but I just don't think he's currently a very high priority addition. If we got Ridley and a few other big names this game and waited until SSB5 where it's confirmed that Sakurai is more lax about having a larger roster, I could definitely see Toad as a much more likely addition. In the mean time, with bigger fish to fry, Toad just doesn't seem likely.

There's just one last thing about Toad I question. Though he is certainly a familiar face, does anything he does really have input for his character? With being townspeople in Mario RPGs, item-house hosts in the Mario platformers, and side roles as nameless other-color Toads in the New Super Mario Bros. games... Does he perform much other than being a filler NPC? It just feels like the recurrence of Toad doesn't have to do with the character itself so much as the trope of having lesser-involved third-parties within the Mario universe. I wouldn't sound completely out-there if I suggested Toad replaced the extra Luigi's in Luigi's Mansion 2 multiplayer, or if he replaced Stuffwell and Starlow as expositional fairies of the Mario & Luigi titles, would I? What if I said the reverse, having the Toad Brigade being the Shy Guy Brigade instead, or if Wario and Luigi were Blue Toad and Yellow Toad instead?

By no means does it de-credit the species itself, but I honestly feel like that it comes down to Toad primarily functioning as a filler character rather than an actual character in-universe. Take that with a grain of salt, of course. Being the Mushroom Kingdom, naturally Toads would be the inhabitants and NPCs throughout the games. I just feel like that without Toad, more creative liberties would have been taking in creating characters throughout the franchise. More one-offs would exist between games, or at the very least, several current one-offs would not even be one-offs if they had a role to fill that wasn't more easily absorbed by the face of the every-man of Mario. Does that make sense? I hope I'm not degrading Toad more than I am reiterating his role. It's late. I should go to bed.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Is there a list of said mature users you would recommend if such a chat was ever made once again? ...And would I be on that list?

I'll tell you one fact: Never fourteen people in a skype call. Habanero and I can just testify that it doesn't work. I don't only know this thanks to you guys, I know this thanks to all of my group friends.

 

[Arcanir]

Uh guys, remember that new form mewtwo got? Apparently it's a new thing called Mega evolution and a number of Pokemon including lucario got it. http://serebii.net/index2.shtml

How do you think it'll play into either of those characters chances and (possibly) movesets?

 

[SuperBrawler]

Uh guys, remember that new form mewtwo got? Apparently it's a new thing called Mega evolution and a number of Pokemon including lucario got it. http://serebii.net/index2.shtml

How do you think it'll play into either of those characters chances and (possibly) movesets?

It might help, but only the popular pokemon.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Uh guys, remember that new form mewtwo got? Apparently it's a new thing called Mega evolution and a number of Pokemon including lucario got it. http://serebii.net/index2.shtml

How do you think it'll play into either of those characters chances and (possibly) movesets?

It'd be cool for Lucario (...i guess) and Mewtwo, but even then I just have this gut feeling that people would want the originals instead.

 

[Khoru]

time to make a mawile support thread

 

[SuperBrawler]

This will be all over the Pokemon threads/Pokemon character discussion thread.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

time to make a mawile support thread

Admittedly, I laughed.

This will be all over the Pokemon threads/Pokemon character discussion thread.

Well, that's what happens with anything Pokemon.

 

[CalumG]

All I have to say about megaEvolutions is this: we better be getting megaEvolutions for Charizard, Blastoise and Venusaur.

Do it Gamefreak; some of us had our dumb, uninformed 8-year old hearts broken when we realized the PokeGods weren't real. Let us live out our childhood dreams of Charcolt, Rainer and Sapsaur. You know it needs to happen.