Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[kingmario92]

Let's talk about Little Mac. Do you think he's going out miss out again? Sakurai says he isn't really keen to add fighters to the game and Little Mac is solely that along with his moves mostly being Fist & Fighting Oriented.

“The biggest feature we look at in Smash Bros. is, ‘What does this character bring to Smash Bros. that other characters don’t?’ If you look at… someone from a fighting game already, and people like fighting with this character, from my point of view, it’s like ‘this guy does what this guy already does. He fills the role that this character already has. So while you may like this character and he’s interesting, that doesn’t really merge well, here.”

I just want to clarify this and get everyone's opinion before I cut Little Mac from my main roster because he fits this description perfectly.

Little Mac is one of the more requested, but I can see what he means when he says that

I think by fighting characters, I think he's talking along the lines of characters like Ryu, Heihachi, and Akira. He wants to avoid adding generic fighting game characters in that kind of way, and if you're familiar with fighting games of that light, you can see why it would be discouraged. This doesn't mean that characters that have appeared in a fighting game won't happen, because we already have several characters like that already. It's simply a way to promote and encourage diversity, so please don't look deeply into it.

I'm still glad Ryu didn't get in Smash over Mega Man. I'm sick of seeing Ryu everywhere now. Capcom ignores everything that isn't Street Fighter or Resident Evil

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Little Mac is one of the more requested, but I can see what he means when he says that

I mean Punch-Out!!! is an incredibly classic game that should be represented, but it brings nothing to the game.

So far we have an arena stage that's not from Punch-Out and then this statement from Sakurai. Maybe he's not getting in

I'd really appreciate hearing what everyone else thinks about this, cuz I'm thinking about cutting Little Mac.

 

[3Bismyname]

Gotta disagree with you on ASRT. The reason many others deserving characters didn't get in was simply due to fact that sumo couldn't work out how their vehicles would transform. Ages, Vyse, Gilius and Joe Musashi are hardly marketing tools rather just pure fanservice.

yeah i heard once that the main reason Ristar wasnt made a racer was because he'd look awkward from behind. which i guess i understand but that's still a dumb reason imo

 

[mimgrim]

Since you bring this up, I've wanted an excuse to express something.


I like how SSB is by no means a "marketing game".
It actually feels like a celebration of Nintendo franchises, and those close with Nintendo.

There are other crossover games which are blatant marketing tools, being the worst offenders: PSASBR, Sonic and All-Stars Racing Transformed.
Yet what does SSB do? Redesign Pit? And that was even before they decided to make Uprising. So ROY was really the only promotional material ever.

While this may or may not be the case, there has been a certain group each game has been centered/marketed towards (whichever word suits your fancy), 64 was pretty much intended for the hardcore gamers due to it's experiment status and the fact it wasn't advertised at all, Melee can be argues to have been centered around everyone however some argue it was meant just for hardcores again, Brawl without a doubt was centered around casuals as Sakurai stated this himself about Brawl. Smash4 Sakurai has stated he is trying to please everyone, casuals and hardcores/competitives alike.

 

[FalKoopa]

Little Mac's game is not a fighting game though. It only looks like one. It's more of a puzzle game, infact.

Little Mac is still one of the most likely newcomers, regardless of that statement.

 

[kingmario92]

I mean Punch-Out!!! is an incredibly classic game that should be represented, but it brings nothing to the game.

So far we have an arena stage that's not from Punch-Out and then this statement from Sakurai. Maybe he's not getting in

I'd really appreciate hearing what everyone else thinks about this, cuz I'm thinking about cutting Little Mac.

It really stinks that he might not get in. Oh well, I'll just replace him with Pac-Ma *shot*

 

[FlareHabanero]

Again, don't look too deeply into statements. Being overzealous about these words is just going to lead no where.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Gotta disagree with you on ASRT. The reason many others deserving characters didn't get in was simply due to fact that sumo couldn't work out how their vehicles would transform. Ages, Vyse, Gilius and Joe Musashi are hardly marketing tools rather just pure fanservice.

Danica Patric > Promoting Nascar
Wreck it Ralph > Promoting the movie
3 Team Fortress Characters in 1, > Promoting Team Fortress
Football Manager > Promoting one of the only SEGA ips that are still somewhat successful (you were saying something about working out their vehicles?)
Shogun > Same as football manager
General Winters > Promoting the newly acquired franchise from THQ.

All super easy copy-pastes models from other games.

Giulius, Joe, and Vyse, I can sort of give you that. But you're naming specifically the ones that are NOT the marketing tool. (Still, can't say they did those characters from scratch when their models were already available).
The rest pretty much are.

SEGA Vintage Collection > Nights, Jet Set Radio


Last I checked, over half this roster can't be called "All-Star". I swear we're THIS close to getting a playable Cocacola bottle instead of characters like Axel Stone (Police Car, hello?) Vectorman (a transformable orbot, has turned into Trains, Tanks, etc) or Ristar because "It wouldn't look interesting from behind". I can name, once again, half the roster that doesn't look interesting no matter which POV you look at him/her from.

Don't even get me started on the clones. :/



BTW, not mad, but I heavily insist this is an AAA Adver-game.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Little Mac's game is not a fighting game though. It only looks like one. It's more of a puzzle game, infact.

Little Mac is still one of the most likely newcomers, regardless of that statement.

That doesn't change the fact that he's a generic fighter. Explain how my statement should be disregarded completely and why he's the most likely outside requests. He doesn't bring anything to the game at all. You're completely ignoring 2 very vital things that should be adressed before saying Little Mac is still getting in.

Again, don't look too deeply into statements. Being overzealous about these words is just going to lead no where.

Actually it think it does lead to something. I mean I can't just ignore this statement because people want him. Isn't part of speculating analyzing and looking into stuff?

 

[shinhed-echi]

That doesn't change the fact that he's a generic fighter. Explain how my statement should be disregarded completely and why he's the most likely outside requests. He doesn't bring anything to the game at all. You're completely ignoring 2 very vital things that should be adressed before saying Little Mac is still getting in.



Actually it think it does lead to something. I mean I can't just ignore this statement because people want him. Isn't part of speculating analyzing and looking into stuff?

Doesn't add anything you say?

1.- A tan, black-haired protagonist

2.- A sport/puzzle game representative.

3.- A punching specialist, because even with "just punching" you can do a lot. Remember how many status effects have been introduced in SSB? Stun? Dizzy? Sleep?

4.- A unique Star-based power system that pushes high-rish/high-reward play.

5.- A western-mostly franchise, something that has yet to appear in a SSB game.

6.- Possibly one of the only characters who fights opponents bigger than him without resorting to power ups, or bigger weapons.


Not to mention, Punch Out's history with Nintendo would make other franchises already represented look like a joke. It's criminal enough the fact that Little Mac has taken THIS LONG to be considered for Smash, but that's just because Punch Out has always been a sort of Prize Game in Japan, rather than an actual retail game.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Danica Patric > Promoting Nascar
Wreck it Ralph > Promoting the movie
3 Team Fortress Characters in 1, > Promoting Team Fortress
Football Manager > Promoting one of the only SEGA ips that are still somewhat successful (you were saying something about working out their vehicles?)
Shogun > Same as football manager
General Winters > Promoting the newly acquired franchise from THQ.

All super easy copy-pastes models from other games.

Giulius, Joe, and Vyse, I can sort of give you that. But you're naming specifically the ones that are NOT the marketing tool. (Still, can't say they did those characters from scratch when their models were already available).
The rest pretty much are.

SEGA Vintage Collection > Nights, Jet Set Radio


Last I checked, over half this roster can't be called "All-Star". I swear we're THIS close to getting a playable Cocacola bottle instead of characters like Axel Stone (Police Car, hello?) Vectorman (a transformable orbot, has turned into Trains, Tanks, etc) or Ristar because "It wouldn't look interesting from behind". I can name, once again, half the roster that doesn't look interesting no matter which POV you look at him/her from.

Don't even get me started on the clones. :/



BTW, not mad, but I heavily insist this is an AAA Adver-game.

The most dissapointing thins in Sega Transformed was the lazy ass All-Star moves!

Oh, AiAi's Monkey he throws Bananas!
Oh, Amigo is mexican so he throws Maracas!
Oh, Amy does something with her hammer right? What does she do with it, I think she throws many of them. (or was that Hammer Bro....NAH I think it was Amy!)
Oh, The game is called Golden Axe so he throws Axes!

Doesn't add anything you say?

1.- A tan, black-haired protagonist

2.- A sport/puzzle game representative.

3.- A punching specialist, because even with "just punching" you can do a lot. Remember how many status effects have been introduced in SSB? Stun? Dizzy? Sleep?

4.- A unique Star-based power system that pushes high-rish/high-reward play.

5.- A western-mostly franchise, something that has yet to appear in a SSB game.

6.- Possibly one of the only characters who fights opponents bigger than him without resorting to power ups, or bigger weapons.


Not to mention, Punch Out's history with Nintendo would make other franchises already represented look like a joke. It's criminal enough the fact that Little Mac has taken THIS LONG to be considered for Smash, but that's just because Punch Out has always been a sort of Prize Game in Japan, rather than an actual retail game.

I meant in terms of moves

 

[shinhed-echi]

I meant in terms of moves

Ah, well I still disagree.
Punching might look generic, but Little Mac is precisely the character to show what a MASTER of punches is capable of.

A punch that stuns,
a punch that sends opponents to Sleep (one of Little Mac's opponents in Punch Out did this)
Elemental punches if you will (Fire, Ice, Thunder)
Shieldbreaking punches.
Punches that cause input delay on opponent.
A punch that can turn the opponent around.


Little Mac could also replenish some health by grab-pummeling opponents, like in Boxing.


WORST CASE SCENARIO:
Borrow moves from the other boxer enemies. Something I disagree with, but it's better than not having him at all.

 

[Hotfeet444]

We're discussing Little Mac now?

Oh and Noah, his moves could be very unique, if he's based around counter-attacks.

 

[FlareHabanero]

If we're really going to get really attached to whatever offers something new (as in COMPLETELY ENTIRELY NEW), we're just going to limit ourselves to something like Lip...

 

[MargnetMan23]

If we're really going to get really attached to whatever offers something new (as in COMPLETELY ENTIRELY NEW), we're just going to limit ourselves to something like Lip...

Hey we could add Oma- *remembers squirtle* ****!

 

[shinhed-echi]

Part of the moveset I came up with.

Just listing the "flashier" moves.


B: Dizzy punch
-->When this punch lands on an opponent, he/she/it will be stunned for a little while.

B-Tilt: Dodge punch
-->When executing this move, Mac will dash forward (about the equivalent of two large steps), dodging any attack coming his way. Pressing B again immediately will make Little Mac throw a fierce punch that will knock an opponent away. This move is both defensive and offensive at the same time. It's great for approaching projectile users.

B-Down: Counterpunch
-->This is a counter-type move. This counter move has little knockback, however it also works exactly like Mr.Game & Watch's bucket, except with physical moves. If Little Mac "absorbs" a physical hit while executing it, he'll briefly flicker yellow. This means he gained a Lvl 1 Star Power. He can do this up to Level 3 star power, where his UP+B (Star Punch) will be at its deadliest damage and knockback. Little Mac will lose his STARS if he is hit by an opponent, or after he uses the UP+B.

B-Up: Star Punch
-->Mac leaps into the air, performing a devastating uppercut, taught by Doc Louis.
1STAR = As strong as a regular smash attack
2STARS = Twice as strong as a fully charged smash attack
3STARS = As powerful as Mr.G&W's Level 9 sign.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

wrong post bleh

 

[Silverjay323]

Danica Patric > Promoting Nascar
Wreck it Ralph > Promoting the movie
3 Team Fortress Characters in 1, > Promoting Team Fortress
Football Manager > Promoting one of the only SEGA ips that are still somewhat successful (you were saying something about working out their vehicles?)
Shogun > Same as football manager
General Winters > Promoting the newly acquired franchise from THQ.

All super easy copy-pastes models from other games.

Giulius, Joe, and Vyse, I can sort of give you that. But you're naming specifically the ones that are NOT the marketing tool. (Still, can't say they did those characters from scratch when their models were already available).
The rest pretty much are.

SEGA Vintage Collection > Nights, Jet Set Radio


Last I checked, over half this roster can't be called "All-Star". I swear we're THIS close to getting a playable Cocacola bottle instead of characters like Axel Stone (Police Car, hello?) Vectorman (a transformable orbot, has turned into Trains, Tanks, etc) or Ristar because "It wouldn't look interesting from behind". I can name, once again, half the roster that doesn't look interesting no matter which POV you look at him/her from.

Don't even get me started on the clones. :/



BTW, not mad, but I heavily insist this is an AAA Adver-game.

Wreck-it Ralph was mainly in due to his cameos in the movie. I'll give you Team Fortress, albeit it was very popular, Promoting successful franchises=A bad thing? Keep in mind this is a SEGA crossover, which has alot of ips that aren't very popular so this advertisement is somewhat necessary to ensure the success of the game, and NiGHTS was the most requested, so his exclusion would be worse than ristar. The "falco' clones (Reala, Gum, and the other space channel 5 char, can't remember the name) Were admittedly there to fill up space, but are still popular characters,and considering that this was also a launch title for Wii U so making sure the game did well was a priority.

On Little Mac, I'd like to see an actual character from a fighting game in smash, and Punch Out isn't neccessarily your "average" fighting game. It'd be interesting.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ah, well I still disagree.
Punching might look generic, but Little Mac is precisely the character to show what a MASTER of punches is capable of.

A punch that stuns,
a punch that sends opponents to Sleep (one of Little Mac's opponents in Punch Out did this)
Elemental punches if you will (Fire, Ice, Thunder)
Shieldbreaking punches.
Punches that cause input delay on opponent.
A punch that can turn the opponent around.


Little Mac could also replenish some health by grab-pummeling opponents, like in Boxing.


WORST CASE SCENARIO:
Borrow moves from the other boxer enemies. Something I disagree with, but it's better than not having him at all.

Those are all effects, not moves. The elemental moves are kind of cool though, Great Tiger had some powers so why not, I was thinking he should have a counter attack, and the ability to charge the offense of all his specials by pressing down B.

HOWEVER, by borrowing powers from other fighters in the game, using elemental attacks and stun abilities, and maybe the ability to charge himself entirely. I'm convinced. But, what about that Stage in SSB???


Here's my Move Set

Neutral Special: Power Punch: A Punch you can charge and release.

Forward Special: Knock-Out Punch: Stuns enemies

Downward Special: Counter Punch: Works just like Marth's counter, except it does a shuryuken .

Upward Special: Upper Cut

Final Smash: Giga Mac OR Triple Star Punch

What other moves are there from other opponents?

 

[shinhed-echi]

Those are all effects, not moves. The elemental moves are kind of cool though, Great Tiger had some powers so why not, I was thinking he should have a counter attack, and the ability to charge the offense of all his specials by pressing down B. But, I'm still skeptical.

They can still be asigned as moves.

But again, there's a lot to choose from for "just punching". We can't put ourselves in a situation where we'll get nothing but WTF movesets like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer either.

Sakurai was talking about "porting" characters from Fighting Games. Punch Out may be a fighter, but isn't from a fighting game. Nintendo themselves consider it a "reaction-based" game.(Source)

Also, Punch Out is perhaps the most successful and popular IP for the VERY FIRST Nintendo game designer.
There is absolutely no reason to NOT include Little Mac.
Punch Out itself is not a serious boxing game, so having a goofy moveset is not completely out of the question.

What other moves are there from other opponents?

Bald Bull: Bull Charge
Bear Hugger: Bear Hug
Mr.Sandman: Dreamland Express
Aran Ryan: Clench stamina drain, Horseshoe rope
Great Tiger: Illusions
Super Macho Man: Spinning Punch
Soda Popinski: Regain health?
Mad Clown: Ball juggle
Masked Muscle: Spit blind
Rick/Nick Bruiser: Elbow crush
Von Kaiser: Berserk spinner
Dragoon Chan: Chi recovery


Still... There's enough Little Mac can do on his own. Just remember Mega Man could only shoot, therefore he's got a unique moveset based for running and shooting. BUT they also added some robot master skills (most are projectiles).

 

[Opossum]

Sakurai's statement has nothing to do with Little Mac. It was referring to characters from other fighting games. Punch-Out!! isn't a fighting game. It's a sports/puzzle game.

Saying that he can add nothing to the game is ludicrous. We don't have a boxing character yet, minus one of the Villager's moves. He could also easily get a power-up reward system with the Stars, health boosts, and have a moveset based around close-combat and counter-strikes.

That, and really, there's no other unrepresented series that can truly be called a Nintendo classic, barring maybe the Miis. Most of the other new series that could be added are C-listers. B-listers at best. But Punch-Out!! is a legend.

 

[Reznor]

We're discussing Little Mac now?

Oh and Noah, his moves could be very unique, if he's based around counter-attacks.

Hotfeet you still going to make a video response to Shokio (just being nosy)

 

[TumblrFamous]

I think people are overreacting about the whole fighters news. I think Sakurai meant fighting games from, for example, Street Fighter or Soul Caliber. Punch Out!!! is a big franchise, and Little Mac is far from generic.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Sakurai's statement has nothing to do with Little Mac. It was referring to characters from other fighting games. Punch-Out!! isn't a fighting game. It's a sports/puzzle game.

But, his point was what the character does, not what his game is classified as. And we already stated what Little Mac can do.

Oh and Noah,

It's WizardHeimer Saturn.

 

[Opossum]

But, his point was what the character does, not what his game is classified as. And we already stated what Little Mac can do.



It's WizardHeimer Saturn.

Because God forbid someone else gives their input, right?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Because God forbid someone else gives their input, right?

I'm saying I agree with you that Little Mac isn't generic. Calm down, dude.

 

[Opossum]

I'm saying I agree with you that Little Mac isn't generic. Calm down, dude.

I'm completely calm, dude. Just putting my input.

 

[shinhed-echi]

But, his point was what the character does, not what his game is classified as. And we already stated what Little Mac can do.



It's WizardHeimer Saturn.

I think his point was that fans of said Fighting Game character wouldn't be comfortable with the way he handles in SSB4, because it's a different type of fighting game.

To give you an example.. Fans of Ryu who would expect to execute a particular combo like they do in SSFIV would be seriously disappointed, because the knockback in SSB is dependant on health %, and its not pre-fixed on certain moves. Therefore those combos will most likely never land just like in their home fighting game, upsetting the fans of said character.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

That, and really, there's no other unrepresented series that can truly be called a Nintendo classic

Meanwhile in Japan..........

 

[Hotfeet444]

Hotfeet you still going to make a video response to Shokio (just being nosy)

I actually did make it, but I'm questioning posting it at this point. It's not like he'll ever admit he's wrong, it's not like his fanboys won't come and try to prove the points wrong, it all just seems like a pointless waste of time to post.

I think people are overreacting about the whole fighters news. I think Sakurai meant fighting games from, for example, Street Fighter or Soul Caliber. Punch Out!!! is a big franchise, and Little Mac is far from generic.

Not to mention Punch-Out isn't exactly a fighting game, it's more of a reaction-timing/reflex tester than that of an actual fighting game. It's not like Joy Mecha Fight, which was designed as an actual fighter.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Okay, people! What you THINK he meant doesn't change what he said! I've seen like 15 people post "Oh, well it's not a fighting game, I think he meant he doesn't want people from fighting games" The whole statement was about what fighting characters do. He's not going to refrain from adding a character because they're FROM a fighting game. And I'm fully aware Little Mac has his own abilities.

 

[Opossum]

Meanwhile in Japan..........

Speaking frankly, Nazo no Murasame-jo is a one game series that had its only game in 1986 and never left Japan. I'd definitely say that Punch-Out!! means much more to Nintendo as a series than it.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Meanwhile in Japan..........

I won't deny that Nazo no Murasame Jo is a classic... But it's pretty dang far from Punch Out's league.

Takamaru has one first party game, and a "remake" inside SW3.
Punch Out has 5 games and a spinoff.

Still, Takamaru is awesome, and I would love to see him exchange blows with Little Mac. East vs West collide.



Also... come on Saturn, we're being civil here, no need to burst a vein, man.
At least I'm being civil.

Can we please make Little Mac's topic last one more page before going back to FE, LoZ, or PKMN? :/

Nazo no Murasame is also very acceptable.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Speaking frankly, Nazo no Murasame-jo is a one game series that had its only game in 1986 and never left Japan. I'd definitely say that Punch-Out!! means much more to Nintendo as a series than it.

Doesn't mean it's not a classic just because something's a better classic. I mean I'm sure Mario is more classic than Punch-Out. I was just pointing out you said Punch Out was the only one when we have, Murasame, Ice Climbers, Wrecking Crew, and Balloon Fight.

Also... come on Saturn, we're being civil here, no need to burst a vein, man.
At least I'm being civil.

Exactly what post gave you the slightest hint that I'm angry or not being civil????

 

[shinhed-echi]

Sorry, my mistake.
--

Anyway. I'm not concerned of Little Mac's inclusion because of Sakurai's statement. I'm just concerned because.. it's Sakurai. He'd easily put a really obscure Japan-only character, that most likely only had ONE move to work with in his/her game, over a Nintendo legend like Little Mac.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Sorry, my mistake.
--

Anyway. I'm not concerned of Little Mac's inclusion because of Sakurai's statement. I'm just concerned because.. it's Sakurai. He'd easily put a really obscure Japan-only character, that most likely only had ONE move to work with in his/her game, over a Nintendo legend like Little Mac.

When did this become a topic about Takamaru getting in instead of Little Mac? And He's actually not that obscure and has plenty of abilities. If anything he's more unique then Little Mac. I mean he picked Ice Climbers because of their abilities, and Super Smash Brothers is sold in Japan as well. So Popular Japanese characters like Marth, Roy, and Takamaru get into SSB.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So Popular Japanese characters like Marth, Roy, and Takamaru get into SSB.

Marth is the only case where that applies.

Roy didn't even exist yet.

Takamaru is more popular HERE than Japan.

Lucas and Marth are better examples.

 

[shinhed-echi]

When did this become a topic about Takamaru getting in instead of Little Mac? And He's actually not that obscure and has plenty of abilities. If anything he's more unique then Little Mac. I mean he picked Ice Climbers because of their abilities, and Super Smash Brothers is sold in Japan as well. So Popular Japanese characters like Marth, Roy, and Takamaru get into SSB.

What are you talking about, I wasn't talking about Takamaru right now. The guy has inmense moveset potential. Shuriken, Fire blades, invisibility, and a enough projectiles that could rival Mega Man.

I was talking about a potential, under the radar, random pick out of nowhere, without particular moves. Like ROB was in Brawl for example. I just added Obscure Japanese because that's even MORE under the radar.

 

[ErictheLone]

I also read Sakurai's statements as referring to 2D fighters. This quote:

"If you look at… someone from a fighting game already, and people like fighting with this character, from my point of view, it’s like ‘this guy does what this guy already does."

Basically, if we're talking about Ryu, you know he has to have a shoryuken, hurricane kick, and hadoken. There's no room for interpretation, because the moves have already been seen in a similar context. In his usual vague, indirect way, Sakurai seems to be saying he requires a certain level of creative control over a character before he deems it suitable for inclusion. This wouldn't apply to Little Mac. Little Mac is basically a blank slate, although obviously not to the extent that Captain Falcon was, due to the fact that he is limited to a boxing-type moveset. Regardless of that, most of his attacks will have to be made up from scratch, and none of them have been seen in a 2D fighting context. I actually think Sakurai wanted to put Mac in Brawl, but there were too many heavy hitters left to include. Far from the case this time.

I would personally like to see Ryu in smash at some point, as an honorary fighting game ambassador, due to his bonafide icon status.

 

[Opossum]

Doesn't mean it's not a classic just because something's a better classic. I mean I'm sure Mario is more classic than Punch-Out. I was just pointing out you said Punch Out was the only one when we have, Murasame, Ice Climbers, Wrecking Crew, and Balloon Fight.



Exactly what post gave you the slightest hint that I'm angry or not being civil????

Even you have to admit that Punch-Out!! is of a much higher level of importance to Nintendo than those games you listed. My whole point was that there's really no unrepresented series that even comes close to Punch-Out!!'s importance to Nintendo.