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Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

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God Robert's Cousin

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I can Zelda retaining four, but if Pokemon gets five, I think Mario should get five as well. I don't see the new FE rep being relegated to DLC. If you're basing the roster on Sakurai's comments, I think we will also see a retro add that has yet to have a revival. I would expect either Takamaru or Lip. Lip doesn't seem likely, but she could represent the puzzle series of Nintendo.

But this would be the type of roster to expect going off Sakurai's comments.
I considered Little Mac to still be retro, considering his Wii remake is still overshadowed in popularity by the original. That could just be my own perspective, however. Takamaru makes sense as a retro, though. I would replace Lucario with him, but again, "No-Cuts" is no exceptions. Again, this roster goes for likelihood before idealism.

What I'm getting from all this is that Lucario seems to be the only problem with the roster, is that right?
 

shinhed-echi

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I see where everyone is going with Jigglypuff being low-priority. She could have been cut just like Roy and Mewtwo, but she somehow made it.

This doesn't mean Jigglypuff remains a low priority character... For all we know, now that Sakurai is wiiling to NOT cut characters, her priority has greatly increased, imo. In fact I'm going to assume that all Brawl characters have priority over the newcomers right now... Unless they somehow give them a bit of development hell, where they'll leave them in hiatus while they work on newer, simpler characters.
 

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Considering how easy Jigglypuff is to make.....apparently. Jigglypuff has probably been finished by now if Sakurai really doesn't want cuts.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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The data. She was one of the last characters in the game. Her data is with Toon Link and Wolf, two other low priority characters.

He views her as important, but not a necessity.
That ignores the fact that she made it in above the forbidden seven, most of whom would garner much more support from fans in future games. The fact that she's such a veteran should speak numbers for Sakurai's view of her in this quote.
"Whether it's a minor character or a character that is one of the most highly skilled and most played, if that character is removed from the game, the people who live for that character in Smash Bros. are going to have their feelings hurt. I think we have to really consider that, so I take a very serious, hard look at that and have empathy for the players who look for these type of characters when we're making these decisions."
He clearly has attachment to his characters, so I wouldn't think he'd simply shove Jigglypuff out the roster if he had to make cuts.
 

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That ignores the fact that she made it in above the forbidden seven, most of whom would garner much more support from fans in future games. The fact that she's such a veteran should speak numbers for Sakurai's view of her in this quote.

He clearly has attachment to his characters, so I wouldn't think he'd simply shove Jigglypuff out the roster if he had to make cuts.
I think the main reason why she made it in was because...
1. Her senority
2. Really easy to make.

She was a low priority character. That's not a bad thing dude.
 

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I considered Little Mac to still be retro, considering his Wii remake is still overshadowed in popularity by the original. That could just be my own perspective, however. Takamaru makes sense as a retro, though. I would replace Lucario with him, but again, "No-Cuts" is no exceptions. Again, this roster goes for likelihood before idealism.

What I'm getting from all this is that Lucario seems to be the only problem with the roster, is that right?
I agree that Little Mac can be considered retro for some reason, as his notoriety just comes from it. And he just seems very retro since he hasn't had any redesigns, or at least significant enduring ones. I also include Mega Man because although he technical isn't retro, he is clearly modeled from his NES appearance (although you could argue its based off 9 and 10). I'm not really in favor of Takamaru, but he seems the most likely. I can't think of a single viable retro character with a world wide release. I think the idea behind the retro would be like a reintroduction like Pit got. They would not necessarily get a new game, but a new redesign and a new lease on life. That's why I also would think about Lip.

I like that you kept the no cuts, and agree with its size. I don't think the problem is Lucario necessarily. I think Lucario seems like an easy fix to the problem, but Pokemon trainer works as well (especially considering the effort it takes top put hime it). But the real problem is that Pokemon has the most reps out of any series, which does not work. So I would say either cut a Pkmn rep or add a Mario one.
 

shinhed-echi

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I agree that Little Mac can be considered retro for some reason, as his notoriety just comes from it. And he just seems very retro since he hasn't had any redesigns, or at least significant enduring ones.
I shall respectfully disagree here. :p

I know it's easier to categorize Punch Out under the "retro" label because there's already a bunch of those (Ice Climbers, G&W, Pit in Brawl) and there aren´t many or any "Revived franchises" so far (though now technically Kid Icarus is one).


So what I don't get is this... Why does Kid Icarus get the benefit of being a full fledged IP, and Punch Out isn't, when Punch Out has 5-6 games and Kid Icarus has only 3.

Both had revivals, but Kid Icarus was re-imagined completely while Punch Out retained its past formula, and evolved it.
Also, Little Mac from the NES was clearly based around Rocky Balboa, the new Little Mac doesn't look like him in any way.

So again:
Both franchises were revived.
Both character were redesigned (Pit much more drastically than Little Mac)
Punch Out is considered "retro" while Kid Icarus is considered an IP of its own.


Wat? I need to know where this line of thought comes from.
Does this confirm my theory that if a character/franchise is not represented in SSB, it's not taken seriously as a franchise?
 

God Robert's Cousin

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So then my questions arise. For the sake of a realistic roster:

Cut Lucario for the sake of 4 Pokemon reps?
Does Little Mac count as retro to you?
If not, add Takamaru or Lip as a retro representative?
 

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So then my questions arise. For the sake of a realistic roster:

Cut Lucario for the sake of 4 Pokemon reps?
Does Little Mac count as retro to you?
If not, add Takamaru or Lip as a retro representative?
No. Just add a Mario Rep.
No. He is a new series.
Takamaru.
 

shinhed-echi

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1.- Pokemon already broke the barrier of the ammount of characters represented over Mario and Zelda... There is no "number of slots" rule either that prevents Pokemon from having one more slot than Mario/Zelda.

2.- Punch Out is most DEFINITELY a franchise of its own. Not exactly "new" because it's one of Nintendo's longest running IP's, but not retro because it has had representation in every generation (except maybe N64) in more ways than one.

3.- Takamaru is more likely a choice that could be put under RETRO tag. Takamaru has only had one "official" game, and one.. spinoff/adaptation/important cameo inside Samurai Warriors 3.
Lip had a Snes game, and I've heard she also had a Gamecube game, but not entirely certain, so I'm not sure where she stands.


I suggest not using the "Retro" tag unless the game represented really is a one-shot like Ice Climbers or Duck Hunt.

That's just my say on the matter, at least.
 

shinhed-echi

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May I ask when?

Why in Brawl of course:

MARIO: Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser
ZELDA: Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Toon Link
POKEMON: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard.

(Note: I'm talking about playable characters, not character slots in the menu screen)

Back in pre-Brawl days, people thought there was an unbreakable rule of some sort where Pokemon could never get more playable characters than Mario.

Now that there seems to be an unwritten, unbreakable rule that Pokemon can't get more character slots in the menu screen, I'm just saying... we don't know that for certain. So we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. That´s all.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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So that Pokemon does not have more reps than Mario, which is what he was concerned about.
If I add someone without cutting someone, we suddenly ignore Sakurai's statement of not having as many additions this time. This isn't supposed to be the ideal roster, I'm looking for the most likely one. Sakurai is an unpredictable mastermind and I hope to triumph over that unpredictability by creating as close to a roster as he might have planned. That being the case, I don't think he's going to add a Mario character simply to balance the amount of Pokemon characters. That makes no sense from a developer standpoint and contributes nothing towards game balance.

Cut Lucario for someone more favorable, or leave the roster as is? I'm not adding more characters without cutting just as many. This roster isn't going to be huge.
 

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Do you all think LoZ will have 5 reps as well?
Robert, do you think mario will not get another rep? Because if it does you are certainly right it won't be to balance anything. It will be to give mario another rep and have another character.
And can you please link me to where Sakurai said that?
 

God Robert's Cousin

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This idea that "Mario and Zelda will have 5 characters because Pokemon does" is extremely superficial.

Do you think Sakurai honestly cares about that when deciding characters?

Do you think Namco-Bandai developers care when their job is to focus on balance first and foremost?

Sakurai is making a fighting game, not a popularity simulator. There's no rule that Pokemon can't have more characters than Mario. He's not going to add Toad or Paper Mario simply because Pokemon has more viable fighters, and he's not going to add additions he feels are unnecessary. Please, stop justifying adding characters because other series have more characters. It makes just as much sense as demanding more Kirby characters simply because there can be more Kirby characters.
 
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And Pokémon and Zelda already has more playable characters than Mario does if Brawl is any indication and Sakurai does consider Brawl to have thirty-nine characters. They were also planned to have seven each (eight for Pokémon if the Plusle & Minun rumor is true). I doubt Sakurai cares about series being balanced as much as people think.

@jaytalks: I'll address your response tomorrow evening when I have time. A long detailed post like that is not something I won't respond to.
 

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Do you all think LoZ will have 5 reps as well?
Robert, do you think mario will not get another rep? Because if it does you are certainly right it won't be to balance anything. It will be to give mario another rep and have another character.
And can you please link me to where Sakurai said that?
"In terms of quantity, we've probably already reached the limit of what's feasible, " Sakurai told Nintendo Power. "I think a change of direction may be what's needed."
http://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/...mash-bros-might-not-have-a-much-larger-roster

I think it's easy enough to say: People want a 5th Mario character, but nobody can really justify that we really need a 5th Mario character. In terms of representation, I'd say the chosen four do a pretty good job for the Mario series. In terms of balance, there are a multitude of other series that aren't as complete as Mario's is, many of which can offer mechanics or playstyles not possible with the given Mario characters.

That said, I want Paper Mario as a character and I can see how he'd be unique in the roster, but I already know that he wouldn't offer anything crucial to the Mario franchise. Especially not under the shameless reasoning of "We need a 5th character because Pokemon has 5 too!" In a game where we'll have less newcomers before, the big priority should be getting in characters that help represent the entire spectrum of franchises, not bulk up the big three.
 

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Yo Robert Quick Question!

On your roster, you have both Saki and Shulk in your possible DLC list. Where Isaac? If you have those two, might as well include Isaac as well.
 

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Yo Robert Quick Question!

On your roster, you have both Saki and Shulk in your possible DLC list. Where Isaac? If you have those two, might as well include Isaac as well.
You like all 3 Blond-Haired Dudes as well? XD
(well, I haven't seen too much of the two Sin and Punishment games, so I don't have much of an opinion on Saki)
 

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You like all 3 Blond-Haired Dudes as well? XD
(well, I haven't seen too much of the two Sin and Punishment games, so I don't have much of an opinion on Saki)
Only Isaac and Shulk.

I'm just saying if he has those two in the pool of possibilities than Isaac should be in there as well.
 

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As long as you get the series main-strays I wouldn't consider over representation an issue.
 

God Robert's Cousin

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Yo Robert Quick Question!

On your roster, you have both Saki and Shulk in your possible DLC list. Where Isaac? If you have those two, might as well include Isaac as well.
Bottom left of the main roster, below Pikachu and to the left of Little Mac. There's no way I would have Saki and Shulk and not have Isaac before them.
 

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If representation = popularity and relevance the brawl roster would not look the way it does. That was the big mistake we all made trying to figure out what brawl would look like and Sakurai just doesn't play by the rules most people would to make this kind of a game. As it stands FE has a good shot at having as many reps as mario and clearly popularity of series is not equal there.

Our best clues to finding out the roster ALL involve trying to get a look into sakurai's mind:

1.Who fans want and if Sakurai knows about fans wanting this character.
2.Characters Sakurai has admitted to considering in the past or we know are on his mind because he's mentioned them.
3.What evidence we find in what we've seen of the game so far.

Anything else is not worth putting much thought into: rules about certain series being over or under repped, 3rd parties can't come back rule or a certain number of them, if they've been in every game so far they are uncutable, OR if they have been cut before they can't return. All wrong and I strongly suggest we stop pretending these rules exist.
 

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I shall respectfully disagree here. :p

I know it's easier to categorize Punch Out under the "retro" label because there's already a bunch of those (Ice Climbers, G&W, Pit in Brawl) and there aren´t many or any "Revived franchises" so far (though now technically Kid Icarus is one).


So what I don't get is this... Why does Kid Icarus get the benefit of being a full fledged IP, and Punch Out isn't, when Punch Out has 5-6 games and Kid Icarus has only 3.

Both had revivals, but Kid Icarus was re-imagined completely while Punch Out retained its past formula, and evolved it.
Also, Little Mac from the NES was clearly based around Rocky Balboa, the new Little Mac doesn't look like him in any way.

So again:
Both franchises were revived.
Both character were redesigned (Pit much more drastically than Little Mac)
Punch Out is considered "retro" while Kid Icarus is considered an IP of its own.


Wat? I need to know where this line of thought comes from.
Does this confirm my theory that if a character/franchise is not represented in SSB, it's not taken seriously as a franchise?
The Kid Icarus remake drastic altered the gameplay style, as well as his overall design was changed much more than Little Mac. The game is whole another animal than his previous outings, sharing a completely different feel, look, and genre. They even carry a very different message: typical save your world type of affair and a trope subverting satire on gaming. That is why Pit can be considered not retro anymore.

And I don''t really consider Little Mac retro, but I can see how others might feel that way. I think the Punch Out Wii is an awesome game that retained the classic's formula. I recently watched a video from Screw Attack at SGC where Stuttering Craig admitted he never beat Mike Tyson, and was trying to do so. He spent 4 hours (I think) attempting to beat him. The entire audience cheered him on as he repeatedly got knocked out. Craig never gave up. Unfortunately, neither did Mike Tyson. Sadly, Craig did not overcome Mike Tyson that day. But that maddening hardness... that unforgiving boss design... and never give up attitude of underdogs; that's retro. And Little Mac will be forever identified with that feeling. Even his most recent game recaptured that spirit to some extent (easier and more forgiving). He's retro because gamers identify him as retro.

I don't think retro is a bad thing and I don't think being retro precludes him from being a full fledged IP. He has a full fledged IP. I don't think there is anything that disputes that. His Wii revival confirmed he can fit in with the modern era. But retro gaming has become a state of mind that is created by the fans. Mega Man practically has been reconverted into retro by the retro gaming community and fan demand. The last two games in the original series (9 and 10) ignored the "improvements" of 7, 8, and (Mega Man and Bass). His last game (Street Fighter X Mega Man) as a fan developed game is full on fan conversion (Capcom officially sponsored). And his Smash appearance is based on how he is in his NES games. Mega Man is direct proof that a character can be modern and can be retro at the same time. So can Little Mac.

Being retro is not a demerit against a character. It's a badge of honor. It's proof that gamers have fought with you through the hardest of difficulty settings for the longest of time, and that your core game design from your inception was masterful.

I'm not arguing that Pit, Mega Man, and Little Mac are or aren't retro. I'm say retro is a much broader concept that your games are old and your franchise hasn't had a release in a while.

Although, admittedly under this definition, they don't really fit in Sakurai's concept of retro adds for Smash. But I think that I ended up making a bigger point than that. This post really changed while I was writing it.
 

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That was very beautiful, jaytalks. I actually felt something warm inside reading that. I could almost hear a motivating fanfare playing in the back of my mind picturing those trials and hardships. I never really considered retro in that type of depth, but it's an excellent point. Thank you for showing me that.

#RealTalk

All that said, do you think Sakurai adds retro characters simply because he can, or do his retro picks have more depth to them than just "This one. I want to see this one get revived."? Does he have to add retro characters because he actually enjoys them, or does he feel as if he needs to as some sort of justice for their history? What constitutes being retro: being a pre-N64-only character, or having the qualities jaytalks mentioned? All this and more, I wish could be answered. If only interviewers could ask such for such deep insight in Sakurai.

I believe Little Mac is retro for the reasons listed above. In that sense, as much as I'd welcome the revival of characters like Takamaru and Lip, I don't see them as truly necessary in being in the roster for any retro role to be fulfilled. Both Mega Man and Little Mac would do that nicely themselves.

On a more pivotal topic that I relate all this back to, say we only had 4 character slots max per series. Pokemon, on the other hand, has Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, and Mewtwo in this case, bringing their amount to 5. Which would be the lesser evil in this situation?
  • Cut Lucario, bringing the amount to four like Mario and Zelda, but removing a brawl veteran for that reason only.
  • Keep Lucario, letting the Pokemon series have the entire spectrum of representation it wants, but making it look bloated otherwise.
 

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On a more pivotal topic that I relate all this back to, say we only had 4 character slots max per series. Pokemon, on the other hand, has Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, and Mewtwo in this case, bringing their amount to 5. Which would be the lesser evil in this situation?
  • Cut Lucario, bringing the amount to four like Mario and Zelda, but removing a brawl veteran for that reason only.
  • Keep Lucario, letting the Pokemon series have the entire spectrum of representation it wants, but making it look bloated otherwise.
When you think about it doesent the mario universe have the most characters? Like Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey kong they all represent certain franchises but they all originated from mario games would they be considered mario universe characters to some extent not trying to start anything big but in a way this kinda makes sense.
 

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I can Zelda retaining four, but if Pokemon gets five, I think Mario should get five as well. I don't see the new FE rep being relegated to DLC. If you're basing the roster on Sakurai's comments, I think we will also see a retro add that has yet to have a revival. I would expect either Takamaru or Lip. Lip doesn't seem likely, but she could represent the puzzle series of Nintendo.

But this would be the type of roster to expect going off Sakurai's comments.

If we're talking about a revival, honestly to me it seems like the Chibi Robo series could do with a boot up the bum. It's a series that seems to be trucking along quietly (with four games now) and it seems like such an intriguing series....I would really like to see Sakurai give it a nod...even as an assist trophy and a song at least.

Although I suppose you could say Chibi Robo was never really that alive to begin with. :(

I imagine Mallo would be a more obvious and relevant representative for the puzzle series. He is a sumo wrestler, so it's not like Sakurai would have that much trouble making a moveset for him. Sumo moves mixed in with a lot of pushing and manhole using.

In regards to Jigglypuff, I think she could get a boost to her priority this time around because of her retconning to Normal/Fairy type. I hope she will make it in, she's one of my favourite characters to use in brawl.
 

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On a more pivotal topic that I relate all this back to, say we only had 4 character slots max per series. Pokemon, on the other hand, has Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Lucario, and Mewtwo in this case, bringing their amount to 5. Which would be the lesser evil in this situation?
  • Cut Lucario, bringing the amount to four like Mario and Zelda, but removing a brawl veteran for that reason only.
  • Keep Lucario, letting the Pokemon series have the entire spectrum of representation it wants, but making it look bloated otherwise.
1. Sakurai has originally planned to include Mewtwo into Brawl, this would take up 5 reps in total of the Pokemon series. Mewtwo got cut NOT because of Pokemon being overrepresented, but time constraints itself. (I think you already know that but I just want to point that out)
  • Keep Lucario - because 1st gen pokemon is overrepresented. :troll:
2.
When you think about it doesent the mario universe have the most characters? Like Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey kong they all represent certain franchises but they all originated from mario games would they be considered mario universe characters to some extent not trying to start anything big but in a way this kinda makes sense.
This. I almost can see Pokemon gens corresponding to the Mario universe... You can say there are only three first gen pokemon (Technically speaking, PKMN Trainer is not a pokemon but does take up one "pokemon" spot) and there is only one from another gen.

3. SSB4 could have 5th reps for Mario and Zelda series (possibly 9-10 reps for Mario universe)! If Mewtwo ever come back and all 1st gen pokemon stays, there would be 4 reps of 1st gen pokemon, leaving out extra reps in reserve for Lucario and possibly one more pokemon from another gen as a newcomer.

4. My turn! If we only had 4 reps max for Mario universe, who don't deserve to stay?
  • Mario
  • Luigi
  • Peach
  • Bowser
  • Yoshi
  • Wario
  • DK
  • Diddy
Hate this game? Well, give Lucario some respect.
 

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The problem with having 5 Pokemon characters and 4 Mario and Zelda is that it makes the big 3 unbalanced. If we look at all the previous games it was pretty balanced
-64 had 2 Mario and 2 Pokemon, both of which were huge franchises back then.
-Melee had 5 Mario and 4 Pokemon and Zelda, Mario being the biggest selling and the mascot of Nintendo and Pokemon and Zelda being the 2nd and 3rd largest.
-Brawl had 4 Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda with the 3 of them being the big 3 and if we count the forbidden 7 Mario, Pokemon and Zelda would have had 5 characters
So, I believe in terms of balancing, Sakarai counts the character slots
 

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The problem with having 5 Pokemon characters and 4 Mario and Zelda is that it makes the big 3 unbalanced. If we look at all the previous games it was pretty balanced
-64 had 2 Mario and 2 Pokemon, both of which were huge franchises back then.
-Melee had 5 Mario and 4 Pokemon and Zelda, Mario being the biggest selling and the mascot of Nintendo and Pokemon and Zelda being the 2nd and 3rd largest.
-Brawl had 4 Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda with the 3 of them being the big 3 and if we count the forbidden 7 Mario, Pokemon and Zelda would have had 5 characters
So, I believe in terms of balancing, Sakarai counts the character slots
This. So, I believe that in the next game, we'll either see 4 slots for each again, 5 Mario and 4 Pokemon and Zelda, or 5 slots for each of the Big 3.
 
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