Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Knight Dude]

Wait.....who said that Wolf "could have been more unique"? Seriously, the only things he needed were to change his reflector and give him a new Final Smash. Virtually everything else about him is different enough to stray away from clone status.

That raises an interesting point; would B. Shadow be more like Melee Ganondorf (i.e. the able-bodied version) or like Brawl Ganondorf (sluggish)?
I would imagine that he would be more like Melee Ganondorf while Ganondorf retains the "middle-aged man" movement while his moves are changed accordingly.

I was thinking more in terms of moveset. I.E. no new Up-Smash, No Sparta Kick, and no Low Kick. But movement wise I see him somewhere in between Melee and Brawl Ganon. I mean, he's fit. But those horns on his head must be cumbersome.

For Ganon, I would prefer it if he wasn't slower than Bowser. Because that made no damn sense.

 

[Bowserlick]

Bowser is fast in his games and has quite the stride with those long legs. Ganondorf should be slower.

But he should have his Energy Sphere and ability to float as means to approach and get around the stage.

 

[NickerBocker]

Having B Shadow as a semi clone of Falcon makes more sense than Ganondorf Being a semi clone of Falcon.

They should also retain Ganondorfs OoT appearance and sound clips. Not only does he look more able to fight (more of a brawler appearance) the shouting and screaming (especially on dat warlock punch) fits Ganondorf the best. I feel as if he is brimming with power and can barely control his own strength, which is a large part of the Ganondorf persona (holder of the triforce of power.) He should still be fairly slow, considering his attacks pack quite a punch

 

[Hotfeet444]

For Ganon, I would prefer it if he wasn't slower than Bowser. Because that made no damn sense.

That may be a problem now since Bowser's speed has been upped.

 

[Louie G.]

Personally I think the idea of Black Shadow inheriting Melee-dorf's moveset is just perfect.

 

[3Bismyname]

Personally I think the idea of Black Shadow inheriting Melee-dorf's moveset is just perfect.

makes more sense than Ganondorf having it

 

[Morbi]

Wait.....who said that Wolf "could have been more unique"? Seriously, the only things he needed were to change his reflector and give him a new Final Smash. Virtually everything else about him is different enough to stray away from clone status.



I was thinking more in terms of moveset. I.E. no new Up-Smash, No Sparta Kick, and no Low Kick. But movement wise I see him somewhere in between Melee and Brawl Ganon. I mean, he's fit. But those horns on his head must be cumbersome.

For Ganon, I would prefer it if he wasn't slower than Bowser. Because that made no damn sense.

I honestly think it has to do with everyone's initial impression of Wolf, rather than objective fact.

Also, all of this Black Shadow talk excites me, I am so glad that a big name on the forums supports him. Every time I try to bring up Black Shadow without Golden's involvement, nobody even cares. Haha.

 

[Deleted member]

Considering Black Shadow looks more able and versatile than that of Ganondorf, I'd say he's definitely more Melee Ganondorf material. And like his vehicle, he should be very bulky and resilient, not to mention he needs to hit harder than Melee Ganondorf, as his vehicle is designed to be a tank, and he should be as well.

So the tradeoff would be that B. Shadow can't recover for ****?
That he's able to take hits and dish them out, but once he's sent flying, it's over?

Wait.....who said that Wolf "could have been more unique"? Seriously, the only things he needed were to change his reflector and give him a new Final Smash. Virtually everything else about him is different enough to stray away from clone status.



I was thinking more in terms of moveset. I.E. no new Up-Smash, No Sparta Kick, and no Low Kick. But movement wise I see him somewhere in between Melee and Brawl Ganon. I mean, he's fit. But those horns on his head must be cumbersome.

For Ganon, I would prefer it if he wasn't slower than Bowser. Because that made no damn sense.

Well, I'd imagine that even with B. Shadow taking Ganondorf's place as the Falcon clone, he'd still have unique attacks of his own much like Ganondorf did.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

You called it a clone issue. These moves are still cloned, though aesthetically different. Functionally, they'd be the same. That's the point here.

That's actually not the point. Characters become clones because they ALREADY share similar abilities. Not because they have completely unrelated abilities that are deliberately altered to function the same as an unrelated ability.

Sarcasm doesn't work when you're wrong.

So now you are assuming that because something is "visually different" that it must function differently. Rather similar to something it resembles even LESS.

He's more similar to Ike, simply put, because he is almost completely different design-wise from Marth. Closer to Ike's build, definitely not "graceful," and even the concept art is more similar to Ike.

But, the sword is not. That and the fact that he is a descendant is enough to lean more towards Marth

The thing with Chrom is, with the exception of Toon Link (but that's due to Sakurai's self-admitted "rule" of having all Links be the same), a much more high-profile character. The public could be much more cross if he were made a clone, simply due to having a larger base that knows the character from the source material. And before you cry "Ganondorf," he'll likely get retooled this time, a la Bowser and Pit, now that he's not a last minute addition and there's not a gigantic story mode waste of time. Add in the fact that Namco's assisting with balance, and you've got a good bet that Chrom would be unique if added.

Yeah, Pit got like what? 2 moves reworked? One that's just the same move, but functions slightly different? And yet Bowser still retains all of his original specials. The public being cross has NOTHING to do with it either. The public becomes upset when ANYBODY is a clone. And you don't seem to have any basis that Ganondorf was a last minute addition or that Wolf is a semi-clone BECAUSE he was a last minute addition.

Also once again you are assuming that because unique characters got minor unique changes, that clone characters will no longer be clone characters. Why?

And what do you mean by "knows the character from the source material"?

What's wrong is assuming this asinine "pattern" exists. It doesn't.

LMAO! Are you for real? I just proved it to you! Need me to do it again?

Here you go:

Spoiler

Proof that all characters who have shared major similarities and originally are capable of performing the actions of said similar character become clones/semi-clones:

Lucas - Shares very similar traits with Ness and originally shares abilities with him. He physically capable of performing his moves. Shares moves with Ness.

Jigglypuff - Shares somewhat similar traits with Kirby and is physically capable of performing some of her Smash attacks and puff jumps. She did.

Falco - Shares very similar traits with Fox and originally shares abilities with him. He is physically capable of performing his moves. So he did.

Proof that characters with major similarities that are NOT originally capable of performing enough of the abilities of other characters do NOT become semi-clones.:

Rosalina - Shares very similar traits with Peach. Is originally incapable of summoning a parasol or owning a parasol. She is originally incapable of using or pulling vegetables. Not enough original abilities to share a move set with Peach. Thus she did not.

Ike - Shares very similar traits with Marth and has a sword. He does not own the same sword which is originally too heavy and originally incapable of performing enough of Marth's abilities. To make things worse, Marth's Special was replaced with a stabbing motion. Thus the only move he shared was counter. He did not become a semi-clone of Marth.

If you can find me ONE character who

1. Had major similarities to another
2. was ORIGINALLY able to perform their abilities.

Who did NOT become a semi-clone,clone, pseudo clone then I will admit I am wrong. But there are none. So the pattern IS existent. You deciding to ignore it does not make it go away. I can't really say much else besides that you are simply wrong.

You're a riot, you know that?

I guess because you think you're right that your immature insults are justified. And that when I respond negatively to said insults you'll become surprised. But, anyway I'll wait for you to present me with that character I asked for.

 

[Hotfeet444]

So the tradeoff would be that B. Shadow can't recover for ****?
That he's able to take hits and dish them out, but once he's sent flying, it's over?

Basically, just like actual Melee Ganondorf who fell almost too fast for his poor recovery to keep up. Not to mention the Black Bull's boost rating is E so it fits.

 

[Deleted member]

Basically, just like actual Melee Ganondorf who fell almost too fast for his poor recovery to keep up.

But man was it worth it to use all that raw power.......though I wouldn't know it that much; it wasn't until just a few years ago that I played as Melee Ganon more extensively.
EDIT: Maybe that is part of why I support B. Shadow....

 

[NickerBocker]

Personally I think the idea of Black Shadow inheriting Melee-dorf's moveset is just perfect.

Im okay with this. B Shadow would make sense as a clone of Falcon, like Ganon in melee, in the same vein as Fox/Falco, Link/Toon Link/Young Link, Mario/Luigi (64)

As for Ganondorf now, he should be luigified a bit more to actually reflect his abilities in game. As someone mentioned earlier, the ground punch and "ping pong energy balls" should be integrated

 

[BKupa666]

Honestly, I don't think revamping the characters will do the trick, I think it will upset a lot of players. Smash Bros. s a series that only comes around every 7 years or so, which means many players spend a lot of time with just one game. Nintendo also spends quite a bit in the budget for each entry to ensure that the game has enough content and polish. Instead of removing characters, I think we will see less newcomers each iteration with a focus of gradually improving the overall roster. I think the roster in Brawl was spot on, with little fat that can be trimmed. You could make a case for two or three characters, but overall they have all the essentials. They aren't going to remove the Mario crew, Zelda crew, Kirby crew, Donkey Kong crew or Star Fox crew, so all that is left to really fiddle with are the Fire Emblem and Pokemon cast. Every other series only has one representative so removing them would be removing the whole series. Be prepared for less and less newcomers each game with a bigger focus on refinement and new game modes

P.S.
Black Shadow and a load of other obscure Nintendo characters won't generate interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fanbase

There are certain degrees of 'fat' among the series' characters. With Brawl, for example, most people agree that the semi-clones and Snake are toward the fattier end of the spectrum. My longterm vision would involve keeping only the characters who are absolutely mandatory to Smash, which would cut Zelda down to just the Triforce three, Pokemon down to just Pikachu and Mewtwo, Star Fox down to just Fox, and Earthbound to just Ness, and so on. Guys like Jigglypuff, Falco, etc. could be revamped and brought back in some installments, but would not be part of the consistent cast of 20 or so essentials.

I think this approach is the only plausible strategy for sustaining the Smash franchise going forward. As unhappy some will be with the change, I think that unhappiness is small potatoes in comparison to the unhappiness that would occur if Smash 5 (technically 6) featured no cuts from a roster of 42, 3-4 newcomers and a bunch of modes that nobody gives a damn about beyond the first playthrough (looking at you, SSE and 3DS-to-Wii U customizability). The problem is, Sakurai admittedly develops Smash with a short-term vision, making each game as if it were the last despite it being obvious to everyone but him that it won't be.

 

[Deleted member]

I read "fat" and instantly thought of Wario, Dedede, Bowser, Ganondorf (he's got a belly in Brawl), K. Rool, etc.

 

[Morbi]

I read "fat" and instantly thought of Wario, Dedede, Bowser, Ganondorf (he's got a belly in Brawl), K. Rool, etc.

That isn't flab on Ganondorf, it isn't fair to compare him to Black Shadow. That is the prime example of a toned beef-cake hunk, Ganondorf is just a different kind of muscular!

 

[Gunla]

That isn't flab on Ganondorf, it isn't fair to compare him to Black Shadow. That is the prime example of a toned beef-cake hunk, Ganondorf is just a different kind of muscular!

Even his Beard has a muscle.

 

[Knight Dude]

So the tradeoff would be that B. Shadow can't recover for ****?
That he's able to take hits and dish them out, but once he's sent flying, it's over?


Well, I'd imagine that even with B. Shadow taking Ganondorf's place as the Falcon clone, he'd still have unique attacks of his own much like Ganondorf did.

Of course. But he need to have a Headbutt or two. I mean, those freaking horns on his head should be put to good use. Give him some more brutal throws too.

 

[NickerBocker]

There are certain degrees of 'fat' among the series' characters. With Brawl, for example, most people agree that the semi-clones and Snake are toward the fattier end of the spectrum. My longterm vision would involve keeping only the characters who are absolutely mandatory to Smash, which would cut Zelda down to just the Triforce three, Pokemon down to just Pikachu and Mewtwo, Star Fox down to just Fox, and Earthbound to just Ness, and so on. Guys like Jigglypuff, Falco, etc. could be revamped and brought back in some installments, but would not be part of the consistent cast of 20 or so essentials.

I think this approach is the only plausible strategy for sustaining the Smash franchise going forward. As unhappy some will be with the change, I think that unhappiness is small potatoes in comparison to the unhappiness that would occur if Smash 5 (technically 6) featured no cuts from a roster of 42, 3-4 newcomers and a bunch of modes that nobody gives a damn about beyond the first playthrough (looking at you, SSE and 3DS-to-Wii U customizability). The problem is, Sakurai admittedly develops Smash with a short-term vision, making each game as if it were the last despite it being obvious to everyone but him that it won't be.

If only this were true, we would have gotten K Rool and Ridley much sooner. I consider main villains to not be "fat"

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Even his Beard has a muscle.

Not like Dankey Kang though. Dankey's MUSCLES have muscles even.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Of course. But he need to have a Headbutt or two. I mean, those freaking horns on his head should be put to good use. Give him some more brutal throws too.

Nah, horns are to brutal. Man, I remember Krillin getting pierced with Frieza's horns. *shivers*

 

[Deleted member]

.....X has some kind of freaky looking close-ups.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Well, you might as well treat every Smash as the last if the next one won't be for 7 years.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course. But he need to have a Headbutt or two. I mean, those freaking horns on his head should be put to good use. Give him some more brutal throws too.

Well, for the most part, a headbutt would be hitting with the "bald" spot considering the horns extend from the sides.

....wait. "bull"......"bald"......
B. Shadow given the Bull Charge from Bald Bull confirmed.

 

[NickerBocker]

Nah, horns are to brutal. Man, I remember Krillin getting pierced with Frieza's horns. *shivers*

...ahhhh the memories...

Of course. But he need to have a Headbutt or two. I mean, those freaking horns on his head should be put to good use. Give him some more brutal throws too.

That sounds like a good replacement for things like the knee of justice or even an upsmash (like an upward arc of his horns that start from the ground.)

 

[Morbi]

Well, you might as well treat every Smash as the last if the next one won't be for 7 years.

All the more reason to make it almost exactly the same each time.

 

[Knight Dude]

Nah, horns are to brutal. Man, I remember Krillin getting pierced with Frieza's horns. *shivers*

No more brutal than having buzz-saws thrown in your face. Or being eaten by a fat guy.

Well, for the most part, a headbutt would be hitting with the "bald" spot considering the horns extend from the sides.

....wait. "bull"......"bald"......
B. Shadow given the Bull Charge from Bald Bull confirmed.

True, but it would still be funny as hell. And it would fit with his bull motif he's get going on.

...ahhhh the memories...



That sounds like a good replacement for things like the knee of justice or even an upsmash (like an upward arc of his horns that start from the ground.)

You. You have good ideas.

 

[Hotfeet444]

But man was it worth it to use all that raw power.......though I wouldn't know it that much; it wasn't until just a few years ago that I played as Melee Ganon more extensively.
EDIT: Maybe that is part of why I support B. Shadow....

Tell me about it...delivering a Warlock Punch in Melee days felt so rewarding and sweet, nowadays in Brawl it's "How were you stupid enough to stand in front of me that long"

Also, since you're a Black Shadow supporter, you should take a look at this:

Spoiler

 

[TheLastJinjo]

All the more reason to make it almost exactly the same each time.

Well everyone likes Smash the way it is. What they want is the same game improved and with more characters.

 

[Morbi]

No more brutal than having buzz-saws thrown in your face. Or being eaten by a fat guy.



True, but it would still be funny as hell. And it would fit with his bull motif he's get going on.

So... is that going to replace his shadow choke?

Or maybe that is just his dash attack?

 

[Arcadenik]

So nice of you to ask haha. Ridley is a character to generate buzz. I want them to surprise us and be creative. Pokemon Trainer was so out of the blue, I loved it. They need to focus on retro characters, fighters who not only bring a move-set but an entire series to represent

Now that you mentioned it... this is what I have been noticing with the newcomers so far...

Villager has a moveset based on how we played Animal Crossing and Balloon Fight games... Mega Man has a moveset based on how we played Mega Man games... Wii Fit Trainer has a moveset based on how we played Wii Fit games... even Rosalina has a moveset based on how we played Super Mario Galaxy games despite the fact we never played as Rosalina in those games.

When it comes to the Leaky Three... Little Mac would likely get a moveset based on how we played Punch-Out!! games... Pac-Man might get a moveset based on how we played the Pac-Man arcade games (I would love to see Sakurai pull this off)... Mii may very well get a moveset based on how we played Wii Sports and Pilotwings games.

The newcomers we might receive in SSB4 may be the ones who got their movesets based on how we played their games...

 

[Knight Dude]

So... is that going to replace his shadow choke?

Or maybe that is just his dash attack?

Dash attack seems good. Also, @ NickerBocker had the right idea for a new Up-Smash. Let him do an upwards thrust with his head.

 

[Autumn ♫]

If Black Shadow does get into Smash 4, I don't want him to take Ganondorf's old moveset, I'd rather he'd have a unique one and just throw away Ganondorf's old one.

 

[Deleted member]

Tell me about it...delivering a Warlock Punch in Melee days felt so rewarding and sweet, nowadays in Brawl it's "How were you stupid enough to stand in front of me that long"

Also, since you're a Black Shadow supporter, you should take a look at this:

Spoiler

I've seen it before...or at least another version, since I remember at some point the Up Special was where he rose upwards in a ball of fire that damaged him to use and the image inspiration was his last moments in the anime.

 

[Morbi]

If Black Shadow does get into Smash 4, I don't want him to take Ganondorf's old moveset, I'd rather he'd have a unique one and just throw away Ganondorf's old one.

Sakurai would have thrown away Ganondorf's old move-set in Brawl if it wasn't a legitimate play-style that he introduced. He is not going to just desecrate the play-style because Ganondorf fans want him to have a more Legend of Zelda inspired move-set. So that only way to retain it and de-clone Ganondorf is to impute it to someone else. Black Shadow happens to have an immaculate build for such a notion. Not only that, but the F-Zero clone would have an F-Zero "inspired" move-set. Something many people complained about (Ganon being a clone from an entirely different series).

 

[Knight Dude]

If Black Shadow does get into Smash 4, I don't want him to take Ganondorf's old moveset, I'd rather he'd have a unique one and just throw away Ganondorf's old one.

Unfortunately I can't see the latter of the two happening. The sole reason Ganon kept a good chunk of his old attacks was so that old player were still familiar with him. Granted he was given some new tools regardless. Thing is that'll likely stay the same in Smash 4, where Ganondorf is given some new attacks, but has some remaining to keep those who mained him before happy.

Still Black Shadow having that moveset seems more fitting given that it's a variant of Captain Falcon's.

 

[Will]

I was looking at the pic of the day,and I thought Rosalina was going to be OP. Then I got myself together and got some hot doritos.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

There are certain degrees of 'fat' among the series' characters. With Brawl, for example, most people agree that the semi-clones and Snake are toward the fattier end of the spectrum. My longterm vision would involve keeping only the characters who are absolutely mandatory to Smash, which would cut Zelda down to just the Triforce three, Pokemon down to just Pikachu and Mewtwo, Star Fox down to just Fox, and Earthbound to just Ness, and so on. Guys like Jigglypuff, Falco, etc. could be revamped and brought back in some installments, but would not be part of the consistent cast of 20 or so essentials.

I think this approach is the only plausible strategy for sustaining the Smash franchise going forward. As unhappy some will be with the change, I think that unhappiness is small potatoes in comparison to the unhappiness that would occur if Smash 5 (technically 6) featured no cuts from a roster of 42, 3-4 newcomers and a bunch of modes that nobody gives a damn about beyond the first playthrough (looking at you, SSE and 3DS-to-Wii U customizability). The problem is, Sakurai admittedly develops Smash with a short-term vision, making each game as if it were the last despite it being obvious to everyone but him that it won't be.

It's that vision that makes these games as awesome as they are. Removing characters seems to be detrimental to Sakurai's health. I rather see SSB5 & 6 include only 6 newcomers than see fighters cut. Hell, I'm more interested to see who's returning than the newcomers

 

[Reznor]

I was looking at the pic of the day,and I thought Rosalina was going to be OP. Then I got myself together and got some hot doritos.

Cool Ranch is best Dorito

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I believe Ganondorf will be given some more magic related twists, but still retain the same basic play style based on Captain Falcon and that Samurai Goroh will be a little more of a mix between the two. Perhaps a faster Punch similar to the falcon punch in Smash 64, a raptor boost that uses the katana, a kick that goes straight down and bounces you up when you're already on the ground, and maybe a Samurai Dive that grabs you, but pushes you downwards.

But, Sakurai will probably think of something much better. It's a very basic move set anyway so adding twists is not difficult. I'm just being lazy.

This one was actually pretty good. I posted it before:

Spoiler

 

[Will]

Cool Ranch is best Dorito

I agree. But I only had Spicy Sweet Chili.