Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[TheLastJinjo]

Trend? What "trend" are you referring to?

The trend that when a character's similar traits to another outweigh their differences and they are able to perform their moves, they share moves with that character. It's always been like that and so far there hasn't been a character under that description who HASN'T shared moves with another character.

The only time that hasn't happened is (like I said) when a character is not able to perform the moves of the character they share similar traits with. Like Rosalina and Ike.

Chrom shares similar traits to Marth and can perform his entire move set. That said it's most likely Sakurai would end up doing that if he implemented Chrom which would most likely mean he'd see no reason in doing so if he was gonna end up doing that. Unless he implemented Blue fire into it, which I guess would provide some significant differences. But it's likely that if he were to do such a thing that the character he'd go for is Roy. The popular veteran that practically everybody wants to come back.

 

[Natz~]

so whats going on around here hmm?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

so whats going on around here hmm?

Malaria

 

[Morbi]

so whats going on around here hmm?

F-Zero talk! Thank the lords (Chrom, Ike, and Marth... no Roy! ), it is about time that people actually contemplate the possibilities.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Malaria

I want to like this response, but it'd unfortunately imply I like malaria.

What a pickle.

 

[Natz~]

Malaria

 

[Gunla]

Malaria

 

[Morbi]

View attachment 7364

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

 

[Hotfeet444]

so whats going on around here hmm?

Expiration, run before it gets you too.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

To me, the answer is obvious. Basically, like it or not, there are going to have to be significant cuts to the roster after this game if any more newcomers are to become playable. The way I see it, the next Smash game needs to be billed as an overhaul of the franchise, character-wise. All of the fat needs trimming from the cast, and for those who remain, their movesets need serious revamping so that people can actually get excited about the veterans again for non-graphical reasons. Seriously, compare the blandness of almost any 64 veteran to the flashily unique likes of Mega Man, Villager and Rosalina; there's no need to cripple the old-timers, simply to avoid upsetting the people who will have had five games' worth of that character's old moveset anyway. So give Mario a spicy new powerup-based moveset, give DK his roll and his barrels, give Samus her various beams and projectiles, and so on, so every veteran feels like a newcomer, along with the actual newcomers themselves.

I question whether that would ever happen with Sakurai at the helm, however, because the characters have their current movesets because "that's how he interprets them." This is saddening, considering I think we may be in for a case of diminishing returns otherwise.

Honestly, I don't think revamping the characters will do the trick, I think it will upset a lot of players. Smash Bros. s a series that only comes around every 7 years or so, which means many players spend a lot of time with just one game. Nintendo also spends quite a bit in the budget for each entry to ensure that the game has enough content and polish. Instead of removing characters, I think we will see less newcomers each iteration with a focus of gradually improving the overall roster. I think the roster in Brawl was spot on, with little fat that can be trimmed. You could make a case for two or three characters, but overall they have all the essentials. They aren't going to remove the Mario crew, Zelda crew, Kirby crew, Donkey Kong crew or Star Fox crew, so all that is left to really fiddle with are the Fire Emblem and Pokemon cast. Every other series only has one representative so removing them would be removing the whole series. Be prepared for less and less newcomers each game with a bigger focus on refinement and new game modes

P.S.
Black Shadow and a load of other obscure Nintendo characters won't generate interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fanbase

 

[josh bones]

I see goroh as an ike clone if anything.

 

[Opossum]

The trend that when a character's similar traits to another outweigh their differences and they are able to perform their moves, they share moves with that character. It's always been like that and so far there hasn't been a character under that description who HASN'T shared moves with another character.

The only time that hasn't happened is (like I said) when a character is not able to perform the moves of the character they share similar traits with. Like Rosalina and Ike.

Rosalina could have EASILY been a Peach clone. She's taller, but her build is similar enough that the normal attacks could feasibly stay the same. She could have used a Luma as her "shield" and had a move similar to the Peach Bomber using a launch star. For her Up Special, she could have easily gone upwards, and descended more slowly using anti-gravity. As for the Down Special, that's the only one that could be reasonably different, but all but one move? Rosalina could have easily been a Peach clone. Sakurai just took the more creative route. There's no reason he can't do the same for Chrom.

Chrom shares similar traits to Marth and can perform his entire move set.

He may be Marth's descendant, but he's MUCH closer to Ike.

That said it's most likely Sakurai would end up doing that if he implemented Chrom which would most likely mean he'd see no reason in doing so if he was gonna end up doing that.

Wat.

Unless he implemented Blue fire into it, which I guess would provide some significant differences. But it's likely that if he were to do such a thing that the character he'd go for is Roy. The popular veteran that practically everybody wants to come back.

Or, you know, he could not use fire and be unique in a different way. There's tons of potential if you look at some of the movesets in the Chrom thread as opposed to making sweeping generalizations and assumptions. And I wouldn't say "practically everyone" wants Roy back. Like it or not, there's a good amount of people who'd rather see someone different, myself included.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

I want to like this response, but it'd unfortunately imply I like malaria.

What a pickle.

Is it a fuzzy pickle?

 

[Morbi]

I see goroh as an ike clone if anything.

Why? Heavy sword-user? That is the only reason I can think of. I can't wait to see Goroh doing the Aether.

Honestly, I don't think revamping the characters will do the trick, I think it will upset a lot of players. Smash Bros. s a series that only comes around every 7 years or so, which means many players spend a lot of time with just one game. Nintendo also spends quite a bit in the budget for each entry to ensure that the game has enough content and polish. Instead of removing characters, I think we will see less newcomers each iteration with a focus of gradually improving the overall roster. I think the roster in Brawl was spot on, with little fat that can be trimmed. You could make a case for two or three characters, but overall they have all the essentials. They aren't going to remove the Mario crew, Zelda crew, Kirby crew, Donkey Kong crew or Star Fox crew, so all that is left to really fiddle with are the Fire Emblem and Pokemon cast. Every other series only has one representative so removing them would be removing the whole series. Be prepared for less and less newcomers each game with a bigger focus on refinement and new game modes

P.S.
Black Shadow and a load of other obscure Nintendo characters won't generate interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fanbase

Captain Falcon generated interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fan-base. It isn't like ROB or Game and Watch generated much interest either, but they are in because they are important to Nintendo (I guess).

 

[Natz~]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaria

sorry I asked, nyn.........

 

[josh bones]

Why? Heavy sword-user? That is the only reason I can think of. I can't wait to see Goroh doing the Aether.

Ike can defy gravity, why can't goroh?

 

[Morbi]

Black Shadow and a load of other obscure Nintendo characters won't generate interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fanbase

I am just wondering, what characters do you think will actually generate interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fan-base? As you previously stated, we already have the other essentials. Ridley is probably the only one I can think of, and again, that mostly pertains to the West. Even then, he has 2 detractors for every supporter (just kidding, but seriously though, he has a lot of opposition).

Black Shadow isn't even that obscure as he correlates to that anime. I doubt many casual Smash fans would be surprised to see Captain Falcon getting a "villain," regardless of whether or not it is Black Shadow or Goroh (someone Smash fans should be entirely familiar with).

 

[AEMehr]

Skull Kid, Zant, Midna, and Vaati weren't in Brawl because they weren't going to have 6 Zelda characters and Toon Zelda was their 5th choice. There isn't any evidence to support they don't want to add "hot" characters. But this time around, they haven't released 2 major home console Zeldas. And they've only represented TP and WW so far. So far, they've picked 3 "less-speculated characters" that weren't considered likely, and a 3rd party character. It's not like all of the major characters that got added in 64, Melee, and Brawl. So if there was any time for this to happen, it would make sense that it would be now.

You said that "importance" may not be what they are going for this time around and I pointed out that one way of selecting characters from one franchise is different from the other.
Relevancy has it's place with the Pokémon franchise, but not never with the Zelda franchise (unless you count Toon Link taking the place of Young Link to be relevancy related).
And as for the "less-speculated" characters, I can almost guarantee that Villager or Tom Nook would probably have been on everyone's roster if it wasn't for Sakurai's comment on characters from non-adventurous titles. Many people expected Villager to be in the new game, but weren't aware of the comments by Sakurai regarding characters from the Animal Crossing franchise.
Wii Fit Trainer was added for the sole purpose of being unexpected.
Rosalina and Luma were really added for uniqueness alone, at least from what I can guess. Her popularity is there, but her lack of seniority kept her out of our radar. The newest Mario character realistically considered by us was Junior, so it's no surprise that we figured she wouldn't have a large chance to us. But Sakurai saw potential and went for it I guess.

This does not work well for the Zelda franchise. These "less-speculated" characters have something common, they've made several more appearances in their franchise since their debut.
• Villager is present in every Animal Crossing game.
• Wii Fit Trainers are present in every Wii Fit game.
• Rosalina has appeared in every Mario Kart and 3D Mario title since her debut.
All of the Zelda villains I mentioned have not and probably won't aside from an easter egg (such as Majora's Mask popping up in Link Between Worlds).

And with that last thing, are you saying I should bring back Roy, Young Link, Pichu, and Dr. Mario just because I have 53 characters (soon to be 50)?

No, but having a roster of 64 playable characters and saying that you can't add everyone from the previous games makes no sense. You would at least expect the three from the "Forbidden 7" to be return in a roster that big.

But this is just my opinion.
---

so guys this happened

Spoiler

...and people confirmed it as fake

A real shame, but this is a really mediocre fake. Lighting is incorrect, the stage he's on is low quality (taken from the trailer I assume), majority of the outline is just solid black, and I think the character model is from Cave Story 3D.
whoever did this is a terrible person for doing this to me hnng
nowwatchastheonewhoactuallymadeitwasprobablylegendofrob

 

[Gunla]

I think there's a fine line between "Less Speculated and WTF."
WFT is a prime example of a less Speculated, and G+W back in Melee was a WTF.

 

[Starcutter]

nowwatchastheonewhoactuallymadeitwasprobablylegendofrob

uhhhhh.....

no...

why would you say that?

 

[Morbi]

I think there's a fine line between "Less Speculated and WTF."
WFT is a prime example of a less Speculated, and G+W back in Melee was a WTF.

I don't know, a lot of people thought that Wii Fit Trainer was WTF. Nobody was really speculating for her inclusion, she isn't WTF in the same vein as Game and Watch, or even ROB. She is still fairly obscure though.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

uhhhhh.....

no...

why would you say that?

Beecause of your obsession with Quote?

----

 

[Starcutter]

Beecause of your obsession with Quote?

----

it's not an obsession!

it's...

um...

don't know what to call it exactly. but I do REALLY like cave story. its not an obsession. smash is an obsession, cave story isn't. (although it might be close to one at this point)

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Rosalina could have EASILY been a Peach clone. She's taller, but her build is similar enough that the normal attacks could feasibly stay the same. She could have used a Luma as her "shield" and had a move similar to the Peach Bomber using a launch star. For her Up Special, she could have easily gone upwards, and descended more slowly using anti-gravity. As for the Down Special, that's the only one that could be reasonably different, but all but one move? Rosalina could have easily been a Peach clone. Sakurai just took the more creative route. There's no reason he can't do the same for Chrom.

I don't understand how you gathered that. If she's not using the parasol then how is that a a shared ability? It's only a shared ability because Sakurai made it function differently himself. By performing a completely different ability just having it FUNCTION the same as another ability then pretty much anybody can be a clone. Hovering with gravity and magic is a completely different ability from using a Parasol.

As for the Launch Star you are once again performing a completely different ability, just having it function the same as another ability that originally bares no resemblance.

That's like taking taking Diddy's Rocket barrel and have it spin out of control so it functions like Donkey Kong's upward special. Why would he do that?

Isn't the reason a character becomes a clone is because they are similar and ALREADY easily able of replicating the same abilities? Not easily capable of replicating the function of abilities because Sakurai altered unrelated abilities to do so when they weren't able to do so to begin with?

Thus the Luma is the only ability she originally shares. One ability is not enough to warrant a semi-clone move set. So even if that was how it worked, using that as a basis to say that someone with WAY less differences than Rosalina can be made unique? I don't see where you got that impression.

He may be Marth's descendant, but he's MUCH closer to Ike.

You mean like how he resembles Marth's design and shares a sword similar to Marth's.

I guess you think he's similar to Ike because he's heavy weight and has a spin move. That's pretty disproportionate to his similarities he shares with Marth.

Or, you know, he could not use fire and be unique in a different way.

He could do that with everybody. But, he doesn't. Lucas, Toon Link, Wolf, and Roy could have been different in many different ways. WAAAAY more so than Chrom. But, they weren't.

There's tons of potential if you look at some of the movesets in the Chrom thread

That depends on your definition of "potential". It seems now a days Smash fans think anything that isn't directly the same as another existing move is considered "potential".

as opposed to making sweeping generalizations and assumptions.

Is it wrong to make predictions based on huge clear patterns? If anything it's unjustified for you to assume that Chrom would have his own moveset based on nothing, but the possibility that he CAN. Every clone character CAN have a different move set.

You really seem to be basing everything on what CAN happen rather than what likely WOULD happen.

 

[Morbi]

it's not an obsession!

it's...

um...

don't know what to call it exactly. but I do REALLY like cave story. its not an obsession. smash is an obsession, cave story isn't. (although it might be close to one at this point)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(psychology)

It is okay, I have the same "problem" (more like gift) in regards to Black Shadow.

 

[Deleted member]

If it is a reason to get my favorite F-Zero character in the game, so be it. I will certainly make it apparent. I don't care if Gandalf imputes a move-set to Black Shadow, personally, as it is a play-style I am quite familiar with whilst one that I thoroughly enjoy. I can't speak for anyone else, but if I can leech off of Gandalf's popularity to get a character I like in the game, I am going to do it. It wouldn't be the first time lesser characters made it into Smash just because a certain character was super popular.

In any event, the real reason I support Black Shadow.

His theme?
The fact he's Batman on Steroids?
His initials are the same for "Bull****"?
Which is it?

But the main reason I support Black Shadow is so I can recreate this:

 

[Morbi]

His theme?
The fact he's Batman on Steroids?
His initials are the same for "Bull****"?
Which is it?

But the main reason I support Black Shadow is so I can recreate this:

It is honestly all of the above, I can tell that you are a real Black Shadow fan!

That scene isn't my main reason, but it is one of them.

 

[Starcutter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(psychology)

It is okay, I have the same "problem" (more like gift) in regards to Black Shadow.

to denote the persistence of anachronistic sexual traits

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

I am just wondering, what characters do you think will actually generate interest outside of the dedicated Nintendo fan-base? As you previously stated, we already have the other essentials. Ridley is probably the only one I can think of, and again, that mostly pertains to the West. Even then, he has 2 detractors for every supporter (just kidding, but seriously though, he has a lot of opposition).

Black Shadow isn't even that obscure as he correlates to that anime. I doubt many casual Smash fans would be surprised to see Captain Falcon getting a "villain," regardless of whether or not it is Black Shadow or Goroh (someone Smash fans should be entirely familiar with).

So nice of you to ask haha. Ridley is a character to generate buzz. I want them to surprise us and be creative. Pokemon Trainer was so out of the blue, I loved it. They need to focus on retro characters, fighters who not only bring a move-set but an entire series to represent

 

[Deleted member]

....had to be posted.

 

[Bowserlick]

There is no need to have Black Shadow to take over Ganondorf's moveset if ol' Ganny is revamped to have moves like his character from the Zelda series.

The Melee clones should have been treated as gifts for that game. Sakurai did his best to pad the roster to have more options for players.

But I do not think that obligates Sakurai to tag those characters along in future installments where they might prevent the addition of an unique character.

I think Mach Rider would prove a good rival to Captan Falcon while representing his own series.

 

[Louie G.]

There is no need to have Black Shadow to take over Ganondorf's moveset if ol' Ganny is revamped to have moves like his character from the Zelda series.

The Melee clones should have been treated as gifts for that game. Sakurai did his best to pad the roster to have more options for players.

But I do not think that obligates Sakurai to tag those characters along in future installments where they might prevent the addition of an unique character.

I think Mach Rider would prove a good rival to Captan Falcon while representing his own series.

See, I know a lot of people who like Ganondorf as a clone. I was never fond of his moveset, but some got used to it and eventually even mained the character. Since Falcondorf has been in two games now, I feel that it would be a loss for his legacy to be completely gone, so Falcondorf can live on in Black Shadow who makes more sense as a Falcon clone.
And Mach Rider could EASILY be a unique character. I shudder whenever I see the recommendation of being a Falcon clone, since he has so much potential and it shows that people are too lazy to find it. For example, Mach Rider as a mount character is too perfect.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If a clone prevents unique characters, but also prevents the absence of more characters then I don't see reason to complain. You're getting MORE characters.

 

[Opossum]

I don't understand how you gathered that. If she's not using the parasol then how is that a a shared ability? It's only a shared ability because Sakurai made it function differently himself. By performing a completely different ability just having it FUNCTION the same as another ability then pretty much anybody can be a clone. Hovering with gravity and magic is a completely different ability from using a Parasol.

As for the Launch Star you are once again performing a completely different ability, just having it function the same as another ability that originally bares no resemblance.

That's like taking taking Diddy's Rocket barrel and have it spin out of control so it functions like Donkey Kong's upward special. Why would he do that?

Isn't the reason a character becomes a clone is because they are similar and originally easily able of replicating the same abilities? Not easily capable of replicating the function of abilities because Sakurai altered unrelated abilities to do so when they weren't able to to begin with?

You called it a clone issue. These moves are still cloned, though aesthetically different. Functionally, they'd be the same. That's the point here.

You mean like how he resembles Marth's design and shares a sword similar to Marth's.

Sarcasm doesn't work when you're wrong.
[Collapse=Marth and Chrom in Awakening]

[/Collapse]
[Collapse=Marth's Falchion (Compare to Chrom's above)]

[/Collapse]
Visually, they're completely different, despite being the same sword. It was reforged.

I guess you think he's similar to Ike because he's heavy weight and has a spin move. That's pretty disproportionate to his similarities he shares with Marth.

He's more similar to Ike, simply put, because he is almost completely different design-wise from Marth. Closer to Ike's build, definitely not "graceful," and even the concept art is more similar to Ike.

He could do that with everybody. But, he doesn't. Lucas, Toon Link, Wolf, and Roy could have been different in many different ways. WAAAAY more so than Chrom. But, they weren't.

The thing with Chrom is, with the exception of Toon Link (but that's due to Sakurai's self-admitted "rule" of having all Links be the same), a much more high-profile character. The public could be much more cross if he were made a clone, simply due to having a larger base that knows the character from the source material. And before you cry "Ganondorf," he'll likely get retooled this time, a la Bowser and Pit, now that he's not a last minute addition and there's not a gigantic story mode waste of time. Add in the fact that Namco's assisting with balance, and you've got a good bet that Chrom would be unique if added.

That depends on your definition of "potential". It seems now a days Smash fans think anything that isn't directly the same as another existing move is considered "potential".

Weren't you the one who said an attribute-shifting character wouldn't be unique? I don't think you're really in a position to talk here, honestly...

Is it wrong to make predictions based on huge clear patterns?

What's wrong is assuming this asinine "pattern" exists. It doesn't.

If anything it's unjustified for you to assume that Chrom would have his own moveset based on nothing, but the possibility that he CAN. Every clone character CAN have a different move set.

You're a riot, you know that?

 

[Knight Dude]

So I'm just gonna throw out there that if Black Shadow was playable, I wouldn't be too surprised if he had Melee Ganondorf's moveset. While Ganondorf keeps his unique Brawl attacks and is given some magic attacks to use too. Mostly the Dead Man's Volley and the ground punch from Ocarina of Time. Not sure if he really needs the sword. But I'm not entirely against it.

 

[Hotfeet444]

Visually, they're completely different, despite being the same sword. It was reforged.
He's more similar to Ike, simply put, because he is almost completely different design-wise from Marth. Closer to Ike's build, definitely not "graceful," and even the concept art is more similar to Ike.

Also, adding this in, Tiki also said that Chrom is very unlike Marth overall, even if he's his descendant, and is more similar to another hero from a previous time, which can be anyone, but I feel that comparing Chrom and Ike's tendencies and overall personality, I think she WAS referencing Ike.

So I'm just gonna throw out there that if Black Shadow was playable, I wouldn't be too surprised if he had Melee Ganondorf's moveset. While Ganondorf keeps his unique Brawl attacks and is given some magic attacks to use too. Mostly the Dead Man's Volley and the ground punch from Ocarina of Time. Not sure if he really needs the sword. But I'm not entirely against it.

I think he should be given it for just SOME attacks, not all. Like a dash attack, a forward air and a forward Smash, I think that's more than enough.

 

[Deleted member]

So I'm just gonna throw out there that if Black Shadow was playable, I wouldn't be too surprised if he had Melee Ganondorf's moveset. While Ganondorf keeps his unique Brawl attacks and is given some magic attacks to use too. Mostly the Dead Man's Volley and the ground punch from Ocarina of Time. Not sure if he really needs the sword. But I'm not entirely against it.

That raises an interesting point; would B. Shadow be more like Melee Ganondorf (i.e. the able-bodied version) or like Brawl Ganondorf (sluggish)?
I would imagine that he would be more like Melee Ganondorf while Ganondorf retains the "middle-aged man" movement while his moves are changed accordingly.

 

[Louie G.]

That raises an interesting point; would B. Shadow be more like Melee Ganondorf (i.e. the able-bodied version) or like Brawl Ganondorf (sluggish)?
I would imagine that he would be more like Melee Ganondorf while Ganondorf retains the "middle-aged man" movement while his moves are changed accordingly.

I would hope Melee-dorf.
And nice new sig by the way.

Spoiler

I take all the credit for your rekindled interest in Black Shadow. You're welcome.

 

[Bowserlick]

See, I know a lot of people who like Ganondorf as a clone. I was never fond of his moveset, but some got used to it and eventually even mained the character. Since Falcondorf has been in two games now, I feel that it would be a loss for his legacy to be completely gone, so Falcondorf can live on in Black Shadow who makes more sense as a Falcon clone.
And Mach Rider could EASILY be a unique character. I shudder whenever I see the recommendation of being a Falcon clone, since he has so much potential and it shows that people are too lazy to find it. For example, Mach Rider as a mount character is too perfect.

Isn't that legacy the worst character in the game?

I also agree that Mach Rider should have his own moveset. But he can be a rival to Captain Falcon, since both are drivers used to fast speeds.

 

[Hotfeet444]

That raises an interesting point; would B. Shadow be more like Melee Ganondorf (i.e. the able-bodied version) or like Brawl Ganondorf (sluggish)?
I would imagine that he would be more like Melee Ganondorf while Ganondorf retains the "middle-aged man" movement while his moves are changed accordingly.

Considering Black Shadow looks more able and versatile than that of Ganondorf, I'd say he's definitely more Melee Ganondorf material. And like his vehicle, he should be very bulky and resilient, not to mention he needs to hit harder than Melee Ganondorf, as his vehicle is designed to be a tank, and he should be as well.