Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[jaytalks]

Sub-series characters then. Donkey Kong has branched of to the point where that's understandable, but Wario and Yoshi don't have that kind of identity as of yet. It's kind of like saying Luigi is from a different franchise when he's only had 3 spinoffs to date. (I believe) I'd rather let the whole Mario franchise rest and give another franchise a new rep. Ninten from mother no. 1 on my list.

Yoshi got that identity from the wonderful Yoshi's Island for the Super NES.
Wario had it since the Wario Land series, but there became no dispute once the first Wario Ware came out.

Both these games were critically acclaimed and really launched the characters into their own class. Both the yoshi and wario series in total have sold over 19 and 22 million copies of their own series respectively. That's more than the a lot of other series. If that's not branching out then what will they need to do to "branch out?"

 

[IsmaR]

Sub-series characters then. Donkey Kong has branched of to the point where that's understandable, but Wario and Yoshi don't have that kind of identity as of yet. It's kind of like saying Luigi is from a different franchise when he's only had 3 spinoffs to date. (I believe) I'd rather let the whole Mario franchise rest and give another franchise a new rep. Ninten from mother no. 1 on my list.

It's not like the comparison you used at ALL. Yoshi and Wario have had their own series and games (not even including spin-offs) since SNES/GB days. I can understand not considering Yoshi to have its own identity as a series, but Wario has had 3 different sub-series, was a poster-child for Brawl with good reason, AND both he, DK and Yoshi still finds time to be in every single major Mario spin-off game.

Luigi, despite being the main focus of his games, still represents the Mario BROS. series. He's still saving Princess Peach/Mario (even in one weirdly educational case), the antagonists/supporting characters are more often than not the same as in the main series games (granted there's obviously unique enemies here and there especially in Luigi's Mansion games) and not to mention that Luigi is in pretty much every game featuring (as playable) Mario.

That all said and done, I don't think Mario series needs much more reps either (though I would like Kamek as a Yoshi rep). Don't care much for Ninten, though.

 

[Morbi]

Technically three franchises here.

Mario is the biggest Nintendo Franchise, but Mario, Wario, and Yoshi are all considered their own reps. Just as Mario and DK originated in the same game and branched off into their own franchises, Wario and Yoshi did the same with Mario.

So.. it's really, in regards to "Mario Characters," It's

4 true Mario
2 Wario
2 yoshi
2+ Donkey Kong.

I don't know. Yoshi is still kind of Mario. I mean they use him all the time. No doubt he has his own games. I don't really think it branches off quite like Mario and DK did though. He still seems like he plays an important role in the Mario franchise.

Also all of this Dark Pit talk hurts my logic so much. I can't believe people actually want him. Not doubting he has potential. However, I would want pretty much every KI character ever created in the game before I even consider his possibility.

 

[EddyBearr]

@MorbidAltruism: Technically true, yeah. Yoshi hasn't branched off as strong as even Wario, but still enough to warrant it's own Smash Bros. Symbol. And yes, he's still important in Mario.

I have no clue why Dark Pit was brought up. Lol. I think he's slightly more likely than Skull Kid but would be an awful choice.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I believe one person brought up Dark Pit being a possibility, Noah spit all over it while still defending Skull Kid as a sacred cow, and I made the comparison that one is just as likely as the other in being major antagonists from a memorable game in each series. In saying that, I meant neither are likely at all and that his dismissal of one yet servitude of the other was a horrible display of hypocrisy and bias disguised as logic.

Somewhere along the way, people thought Dark Pit was being discussed as a possibility, and all hell broke loose in the middle of Skull Kid vs Dark Pit.

 

[IsmaR]

The thought of Dark Pit having alternate colors that coincide with Pit just makes me lol

 

[jaytalks]

I believe one person brought up Dark Pit being a possibility, Noah spit all over it while still defending Skull Kid as a sacred cow, and I made the comparison that one is just as likely as the other in being major antagonists from a memorable game in each series. In saying that, I meant neither are likely at all and that his dismissal of one yet servitude of the other was a horrible display of hypocrisy and bias disguised as logic.

Somewhere along the way, people thought Dark Pit was being discussed as a possibility, and all hell broke loose in the middle of Skull Kid vs Dark Pit.

it was started because of this twitter pic from sakurai:

Which was being used to defend Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Silverjay323]

But Mother is a dead franchise. Mario is expanding ever more (most notably in the Wario and Yoshi direction.) Mother only has three games of relatively low popularity. It's over-represented with Ness + Lucas and it's pretty widely speculated that one of them will get cut.

Zelda, Pokemon, and Mario have the most reps because they are bigger series. Mario is the
Nintendo series, so it's only natural that they get the most reps.

But adding more will lead to their over representation, and if Smash 4 isn't going to have a significantly larger roster as speculated, then these will kind of be a waste. 4 "Main" Mario characters are enough. Where would Waluigi and Bowser Jr. even fall in this? "Main" series or sub series? B Jr. only made independent appearances in Sunshine and Yoshi's Island, and Waluigi lacks relevance overall if he's not coupled with Wario, and I don't think he's ever seen in his franchise. The Mother franchise is of wide popularity in Japan and received amazing critical reception in both Japan and America. So cutting Lucas would be like cutting Marth essentially, and Ness is a 3 time veteran. If the series is "dead" as you say, doesn't it make it all the more deserving of reps from is three spectacular games? Earthbound is also getting a virtual console release on Wii U so the series isn't completely.

 

[Morbi]

I believe one person brought up Dark Pit being a possibility, Noah spit all over it while still defending Skull Kid as a sacred cow, and I made the comparison that one is just as likely as the other in being major antagonists from a memorable game in each series. In saying that, I meant neither are likely at all and that his dismissal of one yet servitude of the other was a horrible display of hypocrisy and bias disguised as logic.

Somewhere along the way, people thought Dark Pit was being discussed as a possibility, and all hell broke loose in the middle of Skull Kid vs Dark Pit.

That is a pretty funny metaphor.

Anyways, I don't like to count any character with a decent following out. Obviously I have exceptions to the rule. Pallet swaps are one of them. However, one could bring up the Dr. Mario argument to defend such a re-skin. I don't think either have a chance either. That isn't to say I wouldn't love Skull-Kid in the game of course.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

it was started because of this twitter pic from sakurai:

Which was being used to defend Pokemon Trainer.

So in the end, it's a matter of all of us being ADHD doduos pecking at the details besides the initial point?

Oh, Smashboards! We're so silly!

 

[Silverjay323]

It's not like the comparison you used at ALL. Yoshi and Wario have had their own series and games (not even including spin-offs) since SNES/GB days. I can understand not considering Yoshi to have its own identity as a series, but Wario has had 3 different sub-series, was a poster-child for Brawl with good reason, AND both he, DK and Yoshi still finds time to be in every single major Mario spin-off game.

Luigi, despite being the main focus of his games, still represents the Mario BROS. series. He's still saving Princess Peach/Mario (even in one weirdly educational case), the antagonists/supporting characters are more often than not the same as in the main series games (granted there's obviously unique enemies here and there especially in Luigi's Mansion games) and not to mention that Luigi is in pretty much every game featuring (as playable) Mario.

That all said and done, I don't think Mario series needs much more reps either (though I would like Kamek as a Yoshi rep). Don't care much for Ninten, though.[/quote
Well 3 games pales in comparison to DK who's had alot more. Wario games as I know aren't too popular either. The "Mario" franchise as a whole is fine as is in my honest opinion. I think they should give a little room for other franchises to get more reps and gain popularity instead of it being a Mario fest.

 

[EddyBearr]

But adding more will lead to their over representation, and if Smash 4 isn't going to have a significantly larger roster as speculated, then these will kind of be a waste

I don't think 8 (4-2-2) is over-representing Mario, but for clarity I expect a 42-49 character roster for ssb4. The 3DS is mostly limited in rendering large amounts of data at once, not in stored character information.

4 "Main" Mario characters are enough. Where would Waluigi and Bowser Jr. even fall in this? "Main" series or sub series? B Jr. only made independent appearances in Sunshine and Yoshi's Island, and Waluigi lacks relevance overall if he's not coupled with Wario, and I don't think he's ever seen in his franchise.

I don't think less than ~8-9% of the roster is enough for the game which is like 25% of Nintendo. I do argue for like 16-18%. Baby Bowser is a long time Yoshi antagonist (Yoshi's Island Yoshi's Story) which is why I called him "baby bowser jr" as opposed to just Junior. Waluigi is only known because he's in every party game, which is why he should be in this party game as well. They'd be in Yoshi and Wario respectively.

The Mother franchise is of wide popularity in Japan and received amazing critical reception in both Japan and America.

7 years ago. It hasn't been touched in 7 years, and before that it was like 6 years.

So cutting Lucas would be like cutting Marth essentially, and Ness is a 3 time veteran.

Lucas is nothing like Marth, because Marth is like "the legendary one" in the still-prominent and massively successful Fire Emblem series. Marth is the exemplification of every game in the series because he's been in the most, been playable in multiple, and usually has lore involving him. Lucas is just the main of several important characters in just one Mother game. Lucas will come-and-go like Roy did, as Roy was relevant during melee's release. I'd like to note that while I prefer Lucas and wish it was Ness that gets cut instead, most who speculate a cut speculate it to be Lucas.

If the series is "dead" as you say, doesn't it make it all the more deserving of reps from is three spectacular games?

No, because it won't sell. Players play Smash to play as their favorite characters, and the people buying games now are probably thinking about games that are recent or coming out soon, not games that are (by the time SSB4 is released) 8 years in the past.

Earthbound is also getting a virtual console release on Wii U so the series isn't completely.

So is basically every other game that's ever been on a Nintendo game. @_@ Majora's Mask had a virtual console. But that's not an argument for Skull Kid. That doesn't bring the franchise back to life.

 

[jaytalks]

Well 3 games pales in comparison to DK who's had alot more. Wario games as I know aren't too popular either. The "Mario" franchise as a whole is fine as is in my honest opinion. I think they should give a little room for other franchises to get more reps and gain popularity instead of it being a Mario fest.
Wario games sold: 22 million. They are very popular.

I definitely don't need any Super Mario characters, but some DK or Wario characters would be nice.

But characters are supposed to sell Smash, not the other way around. Characters and franchises shouldn't be put in to use Smash as a way to gain popularity. There are exceptions (Roy and FE) but that's not the point of Smash.

 

[Silverjay323]

Yoshi got that identity from the wonderful Yoshi's Island for the Super NES.
Wario had it since the Wario Land series, but there became no dispute once the first Wario Ware came out.

Both these games were critically acclaimed and really launched the characters into their own class. Both the yoshi and wario series in total have sold over 19 and 22 million copies of their own series respectively. That's more than the a lot of other series. If that's not branching out then what will they need to do to "branch out?"

Idk maybe sell over 40 million like DK? My point was over representation and the fact that they have a spinoff series doesn't justify it. DK is a different case whereas the two series went different ways and Yoshi and Wario simply went off of Mario's fame.

 

[EddyBearr]

Idk maybe sell over 40 million like DK? My point was over representation and the fact that they have a spinoff series doesn't justify it. DK is a different case whereas the two series went different ways and Yoshi and Wario simply went off of Mario's fame.

Technically, Mario just went off of Donkey Kong (1981) fame.

As for DK, DK is one of the biggest series. It was noted earlier that Yoshi and Wario sold 19 and 22 million games respectively. DK is most likely getting another rep.

With a half second of research, it sounds like Earthbound sold 150,000 copies.

Checked: Mother 1+2 totaled 278,225 sales. Nvm that's just 2003. I'll see what I can find

Games that sold Platinum in Japan: Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi all have unique games on the list. Mother/Earthbound has none. DK has 5, Wario and Yoshi both have 2.

http://the-magicbox.com/Chart-JPPlatinum.shtml

 

[Silverjay323]

I don't think 8 (4-2-2) is over-representing Mario, but for clarity I expect a 42-49 character roster for ssb4. The 3DS is mostly limited in rendering large amounts of data at once, not in stored character information.

I don't think less than ~8-9% of the roster is enough for the game which is like 25% of Nintendo. I do argue for like 16-18%. Baby Bowser is a long time Yoshi antagonist (Yoshi's Island Yoshi's Story) which is why I called him "baby bowser jr" as opposed to just Junior. Waluigi is only known because he's in every party game, which is why he should be in this party game as well. They'd be in Yoshi and Wario respectively.

7 years ago. It hasn't been touched in 7 years, and before that it was like 6 years.

Lucas is nothing like Marth, because Marth is like "the legendary one" in the still-prominent and massively successful Fire Emblem series. Marth is the exemplification of every game in the series because he's been in the most, been playable in multiple, and usually has lore involving him. Lucas is just the main of several important characters in just one Mother game. Lucas will come-and-go like Roy did, as Roy was relevant during melee's release. I'd like to note that while I prefer Lucas and wish it was Ness that gets cut instead, most who speculate a cut speculate it to be Lucas.

No, because it won't sell. Players play Smash to play as their favorite characters, and the people buying games now are probably thinking about games that are recent or coming out soon, not games that are (by the time SSB4 is released) 8 years in the past.


So is basically every other game that's ever been on a Nintendo game. @_@ Majora's Mask had a virtual console. But that's not an argument for Skull Kid. That doesn't bring the franchise back to life.

Skull kid is irrelevant, five Zelda reps, moving on. Nintendo has over 30 original Ips so 8-9 percent on one, albeit their main one, IS enough. I can see your point with B Jr. though. As for the party game thing...we might as well through in shy guy. Funny part is, all characters from the original Mario Party already have their place in Smash anyway. 7 years? *cough* Kid Icarus *cough*
Sakurai has admitted to loving the Mother franchise, so the cut is unlikely, and Fire emblem has more games than mother so it's unfair to say he's only been in one, when its a main game in the ENTIRE series' trilogy, not to mention it being the final one. As I said before the Mother series IS popular, and if people only care about recent games, then why is everyone so hyped for Megaman, when he hasn't appeared in how long?

 

[jaytalks]

Idk maybe sell over 40 million like DK? My point was over representation and the fact that they have a spinoff series doesn't justify it. DK is a different case whereas the two series went different ways and Yoshi and Wario simply went off of Mario's fame.

The Wario and Yoshi series are good enough on there own without mario fame. The Wario Ware is series a million seller with no connection to Mario and Yoshi series has been awesome for a while without any support for a while. It's unfair to both series to hold them to such a higher standard in order to become their own series when their popularity outweighs many other series like FE, Mother, or Star Fox. It's not over representation because by any other means of measurement, they are their own franchises and series. I'm not saying that Mario needs more reps, but don't put down Yoshi and Wario to make a point.

If you want another rep for Mother, show the character's strengths and the franchise's strengths. The mother series isn't dead, but having a rep in smash wont cause it to return either. Smash characters are in the game to sell smash. Ninten could be an okay retro character but he has limited appeal. His game is Japan only and he's really only known by Earthbound fans. What Earthbound needs is a returns style game. We got Donkey Country Returns, Kirby Return to Dream Land, Kid Icarus Uprising, etc. The franchise needs a new look and feel to match modern tastes. But thats not going to come from smash.

 

[Silverjay323]

But characters are supposed to sell Smash, not the other way around. Characters and franchises shouldn't be put in to use Smash as a way to gain popularity. There are exceptions (Roy and FE) but that's not the point of Smash.

How would the character I suggested be doing this? If anything, adding more Mario characters would be. I'm not saying there shouldn't be anymore, but it kinda pains me to look at the Brawl roster and see more the entire row of the same thing.

 

[Morbi]

Skull kid is irrelevant, five Zelda reps, moving on. Nintendo has over 30 original Ips so 8-9 percent on one, albeit their main one, IS enough. I can see your point with B Jr. though. As for the party game thing...we might as well through in shy guy. Funny part is, all characters from the original Mario Party already have their place in Smash anyway. 7 years? *cough* Kid Icarus *cough*
Sakurai has admitted to loving the Mother franchise, so the cut is unlikely, and Fire emblem has more games than mother so it's unfair to say he's only been in one, when its a main game in the ENTIRE series' trilogy, not to mention it being the final one. As I said before the Mother series IS popular, and if people only care about recent games, then why is everyone so hyped for Megaman, when he hasn't appeared in how long?

Kid Icarus was just revived with Uprising on the 3DS. You probably should have used Ice Climbers or something as your example.

As for Megaman... he made a big appearance last year.

 

[EddyBearr]

Skull kid is irrelevant, five Zelda reps, moving on.

If we go by sales, Zelda should have 50 times as many reps as Earthbound. Zelda is highly repped because it's one of hte largest, but my point wasn't about Skull Kid's likeliness, it was that virtual consoles do not revive series. Sales correlate with popularity and importance in the video game business.

Nintendo has over 30 original Ips so 8-9 percent on one, albeit their main one, IS enough.

I think we can very clearly agree that Mario and Zelda deserve more representation than Pikmin and Game&Watch.

As for the party game thing...we might as well through in shy guy.

Shy guy is a possibility. The question is, how does he stack up compared to his competition? There are many, many factors in deciding whether a character should be in or not.

Funny part is, all characters from the original Mario Party already have their place in Smash anyway.

That strengthens Waluigi's chances. It exemplifies the importance of the Mario Party series.

7 years? *cough* Kid Icarus *cough*

Kid icarus was brought back a retro, just like Ice Climbers. "A retro throwback" has been a pattern in SSB games. 7 years is not retro. It's just "out-dated." The next retro is presumed to be fulfilled with Little Mac.

Sakurai has admitted to loving the Mother franchise, so the cut is unlikely,

I'd personally like to see a cut, and it's possible, but we will see.

and Fire emblem has more games than mother so it's unfair to say he's only been in one, when its a main game in the ENTIRE series' trilogy, not to mention it being the final one.

It's unfair but it's also a legitimate point. Give Earthbound 10 more games and make Lucas legendary, and he will be Earthbound's "Marth". Until then, Earthbound is just a highly represented small-fry series.

As I said before the Mother series IS popular, and if people only care about recent games, then why is everyone so hyped for Megaman, when he hasn't appeared in how long?

Nothing like the popularity of Wario and Yoshi. As for Megaman, he's a rare exception. He's repped because people wanted him real bad because the game is being developed by Namco. Megaman got in by popularity alone. The massive demand outweighed his "being a dead franchise."

In fact, out of every series in Smash, Earthbound is the least popular of them all (except ROB, which is part of the "Nintendo History" trend in SSB as per G&W.)

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/franchise-representation-vs-sales.337963/

 

[Silverjay323]

Kid Icarus was just revived with Uprising on the 3DS. You probably should have used Ice Climbers or something as your example.

As for Megaman... he made a big appearance last year.

The revival was my point, with it being a result of his popularity in Brawl.

The Wario and Yoshi series are good enough on there own without mario fame. The Wario Ware is series a million seller with no connection to Mario and Yoshi series has been awesome for a while without any support for a while. It's unfair to both series to hold them to such a higher standard in order to become their own series when their popularity outweighs many other series like FE, Mother, or Star Fox. It's not over representation because by any other means of measurement, they are their own franchises and series. I'm not saying that Mario needs more reps, but don't put down Yoshi and Wario to make a point.

If you want another rep for Mother, show the character's strengths and the franchise's strengths. The mother series isn't dead, but having a rep in smash wont cause it to return either. Smash characters are in the game to sell smash. Ninten could be an okay retro character but he has limited appeal. His game is Japan only and he's really only known by Earthbound fans. What Earthbound needs is a returns style game. We got Donkey Country Returns, Kirby Return to Dream Land, Kid Icarus Uprising, etc. The franchise needs a new look and feel to match modern tastes. But thats not going to come from smash.

I'm not asking for a return, but for proper recognition for the amazing franchise. Strengths? Well it was one of the most unique, humorous RPGs up to date and still is, Story has in depth meaning about going beyond just a kid's game in all 3. Rather than explain, just play the games. The Characters, Ness for being a badass, Ninten for being even more of a badass, and Lucas for having substantial character development if you actually know what's he's been through. Nothing will quite do what Itoi managed to do with Mother, and I believe that deserves representation. I would like to go into story, but that'd take too long to fully express XD

 

[Morbi]

The revival was my point, with it being a result of his popularity in Brawl.

Ah. I didn't realize that was what you were going for. I can definitely say that Uprising was the product of Brawl. However, I sincerely doubt that Mother will be revived because of SSB.

 

[EddyBearr]

proper recognition for the amazing franchise.

How do you quantitatively measure that?

And also, you must remember that this is a video game that Nintendo is putting money into with the intention of getting as much return-on-investment as possible. One character might really deserve a place because of, say, what they could possibly bring to the game (EX: Skull Kid imo) but that won't automatically translate into sales.

 

[jaytalks]

Skull kid is irrelevant, five Zelda reps, moving on. Nintendo has over 30 original Ips so 8-9 percent on one, albeit their main one, IS enough. I can see your point with B Jr. though. As for the party game thing...we might as well through in shy guy. Funny part is, all characters from the original Mario Party already have their place in Smash anyway. 7 years? *cough* Kid Icarus *cough*
Sakurai has admitted to loving the Mother franchise, so the cut is unlikely, and Fire emblem has more games than mother so it's unfair to say he's only been in one, when its a main game in the ENTIRE series' trilogy, not to mention it being the final one. As I said before the Mother series IS popular, and if people only care about recent games, then why is everyone so hyped for Megaman, when he hasn't appeared in how long?

There was a demand for Pit. And there's a demand for Megaman. There isn't one for Ninten. Pit was a retro revival, so I guess Ninten could do that.

Mega Man appeared last in Mega Man 10, released in 2010.

How would the character I suggested be doing this? If anything, adding more Mario characters would be. I'm not saying there shouldn't be anymore, but it kinda pains me to look at the Brawl roster and see more the entire row of the same thing.

When you said this: I think they should give a little room for other franchises to get more reps and gain popularity instead of it being a Mario fest.

It only looks like the same thing if you dont recognize wario's, dk's, and yoshi's worth as franchise players.

The revival was my point, with it being a result of his popularity in Brawl.

But I don't think Earthbound will get a revival from Smash. They have had a rep in every iteration, and even got their most recent rep against all odds in the last game. Kid Icarus was dormant for over two decades. And Uprising sold well because it was a good game, not solely due to Smash. Smash just proved that there was still interest in Pit and the series.

Cutting Lucas is a possibility. But its more likely because Ness is more akin to Marth, since he's been in three games and is the more well known and classic character. Lucas has only been in Japan Only release and his appearance didnt even lead to an international release.

Mother has already had two reps, tons of items and stages. its been represented very well all things considered.

 

[Silverjay323]

If we go by sales, Zelda should have 50 times as many reps as Earthbound. Zelda is highly repped because it's one of hte largest, but my point wasn't about Skull Kid's likeliness, it was that virtual consoles do not revive series. Sales correlate with popularity and importance in the video game business.

I think we can very clearly agree that Mario and Zelda deserve more representation than Pikmin and Game&Watch.

Shy guy is a possibility. The question is, how does he stack up compared to his competition? There are many, many factors in deciding whether a character should be in or not.

That strengthens Waluigi's chances. It exemplifies the importance of the Mario Party series.

Kid icarus was brought back a retro, just like Ice Climbers. "A retro throwback" has been a pattern in SSB games. 7 years is not retro. It's just "out-dated." The next retro is presumed to be fulfilled with Little Mac.

I'd personally like to see a cut, and it's possible, but we will see.

It's unfair but it's also a legitimate point. Give Earthbound 10 more games and make Lucas legendary, and he will be Earthbound's "Marth". Until then, Earthbound is just a highly represented small-fry series.


Nothing like the popularity of Wario and Yoshi. As for Megaman, he's a rare exception. He's repped because people wanted him real bad because the game is being developed by Namco. Megaman got in by popularity alone. The massive demand outweighed his "being a dead franchise."

In fact, out of every series in Smash, Earthbound is the least popular of them all (except ROB, which is part of the "Nintendo History" trend in SSB as per G&W.)

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/franchise-representation-vs-sales.337963/

You've must've never played a mother game to be giving it this much flack. It's an RPG that has done so much in 3 games that I feel confident stacking it up to FE. Why do you think a rep from Mother came before FE? Not to mention Lucas was planned for melee, but just appeared along with Ness for Brawl, which gives me hopes for another rep in SSB4. I honestly believe that the Mother franchise as a whole is better than Wario/Yoshi series. The bad sales were due to poor marketing, and not to mention the 1st and 3rd game were Japan only. Least popular? So that's why they've appeared in all three. And who honestly recognized pit at first? I personally didn't know Cpt. Falcon had a game before GX before seeing Smash 64.

How do you quantitatively measure that?

And also, you must remember that this is a video game that Nintendo is putting money into with the intention of getting as much return-on-investment as possible. One character might really deserve a place because of, say, what they could possibly bring to the game (EX: Skull Kid imo) but that won't automatically translate into sales.

Wii Fit trainer? Yeah. So. Sakurai also said he puts in characters HE wants, not characters that will sell. Also Pikmin undeserving? PLAY THESE GAMES MAN.

There was a demand for Pit. And there's a demand for Megaman. There isn't one for Ninten. Pit was a retro revival, so I guess Ninten could do that.

Mega Man appeared last in Mega Man 10, released in 2010.

When you said this: I think they should give a little room for other franchises to get more reps and gain popularity instead of it being a Mario fest.

It only looks like the same thing if you dont recognize wario's, dk's, and yoshi's worth as franchise players.



But I don't think Earthbound will get a revival from Smash. They have had a rep in every iteration, and even got their most recent rep against all odds in the last game. Kid Icarus was dormant for over two decades. And Uprising sold well because it was a good game, not solely due to Smash. Smash just proved that there was still interest in Pit and the series.

Cutting Lucas is a possibility. But its more likely because Ness is more akin to Marth, since he's been in three games and is the more well known and classic character. Lucas has only been in Japan Only release and his appearance didnt even lead to an international release.

Mother has already had two reps, tons of items and stages. its been represented very well all things considered.

I said before, I wasn't looking for a revival. Its isn't needed proper representation is, and going off the top of my head here, 2 items, 3 stages, 1 assist trophy and 2 characters. I said Lucas was like Marth since they've been in popular Japan only games. Marth has just made his first English appearance Awakening, besides one portable game I think. Pit gained much popularity from brawl and Sakurai actually developed Uprising.

 

[EddyBearr]

You've must've never played a mother game to be giving it this much flack. It's an RPG that has done so much in 3 games that I feel confident stacking it up to FE.

So because of your subjective experience with the game, you give it a high objective value? I've played a tiny bit of earthbound. I didn't like it one bit. Not entertaining in the least, IMO.

Why do you think a rep from Mother came before FE?

Because Sakurai logic.

Not to mention Lucas was planned for melee,

On this basis, we can also say "Lucas was already scrapped during melee development. He's not that worthwhile.

but just appeared along with Ness for Brawl, which gives me hopes for another rep in SSB4.

He was relavent with brawl, due to Mother 3.

I honestly believe that the Mother franchise as a whole is better than Wario/Yoshi series.

That's a personal opinion. I personally wholeheartedly disagree.

The bad sales were due to poor marketing, and not to mention the 1st and 3rd game were Japan only.

Citation needed for marketing claim, and it wasn't even that popular in Japan because those poor sales include all Japanese sales.

Least popular? So that's why they've appeared in all three.

That's what the numbers say. Earthbound can be the best thing since sliced bread to you but you must understand that you are not the embodiment of every other person around.

And who honestly recognized pit at first?

I didn't, and that was the point of Pit. He was a retro throwback. He was designed to make folks say, "wow look at this old game it's kinda cool!" Nintendo has always been cool!"

I personally didn't know Cpt. Falcon had a game before GX before seeing Smash 64.

F-Zero was a bigger franchise than Earthbound back then (still is technically,) and I had the same reaction with Ness. I saw this character and had no clue who he was. I've met one person who knew who C falcon was, but not a single person who knew who Ness was (off the top of my head.)

Wii Fit trainer? Yeah. So. Sakurai also said he puts in characters HE wants, not characters that will sell. Also Pikmin undeserving? PLAY THESE GAMES MAN.

Yeah, Sakurai puts in what he wants. But wants For what reason? Wants to put them in because they'll sell? These reasonings are not mutually exclusive. The bottom line is that Smash bros has a bottom line, profit.

And Pikmin is an amazing game, I love Pikmin. It totally deserves a rep. It has a rep. It deserves less reps than the Zelda series because the Zelda series is just plain better.

You are personally free to think Earthbound was a gift from the Gods. You are free to think that at least 50-60% of the Smash Roster should be from Earthbound characters. You are free to think that a person must be forced to send $1,000 to the Earthbound 4 Development Fund in order to play Smash Bros. However, don't let your personal bias get in the way of an objective analysis of a character being in the game. I personally would marry Skull Kid 60 times if I could, but I think he has a snowball's chance in the Gobi Desert to make it in Smash 4..

And btw, stop comparing Lucas who is at this point in Earthbound's history "just another Earthbound character" with Marth who at this point in FE's history "is the legendary Fire Emblem character."

 

[3Bismyname]

I said before, I wasn't looking for a revival. Its isn't needed proper representation is, and going off the top of my head here, 2 items, 3 stages, 1 assist trophy and 2 characters. I said Lucas was like Marth since they've been in popular Japan only games. Marth has just made his first English appearance Awakening, besides one portable game I think. Pit gained much popularity from brawl and Sakurai actually developed Uprising.

Marth is the main character in Shadow Dragon. but yes at the time he was added he was a Japan only character.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Try to edit your posts into one, Silverjay. Triple posting isn't usually favored upon.

Unfortunately for the Mother series, of which I love very much might I add, its only lifeline is any representation it gets in Smash Bros. and the Mother fandom itself. That being said, Earthbound's community isn't large enough to where demand for Porky or the Masked Man is actually noticed by Sakurai and therefore are both not likely to get in via popularity. That means thl at unless Sakurai makes a special exception, Earthbound is a small series that will likely see no more characters than Ness and Lucas. As much as it pains me to say so, series quality often does not measure up to series quantity in Smash Bros.'s representation.

I would still very much love to see a third and final Mother character, though. Just not Ninten.

 

[Sebz]

Gonna drop this updated roster right here, and wait for reactions.

I gave 5 total reps to the big 3 because, well ,they're the big 3.

I kept toon link and gave him Vaati as his nemesis in order to make him feel a bit more "legitimate"

With Fire Emblem I decided to add in Hector as a Heavy character, keep Marth as a speed based character, and have Chrom be a mix between the two.

I decided to drop lil' mac in favor of Takamaru mostly because Villager's already got some boxing glove action going on.

Switched Simon for Snake, seeing as how Metal Gear has stuck with the other consoles for a while now, and also because Castlevania games keep coming out on Nintendo handhelds.

 

[3Bismyname]

as cool as Masked Man or Porky would be, i think Mother is very well represented already. I'd maybe even argue that in Brawl it was a little overrepresented by comparison to some other series. but thats another argument entirely.

 

[Silverjay323]

So because of your subjective experience with the game, you give it a high objective value? I've played a tiny bit of earthbound. I didn't like it one bit. Not entertaining in the least, IMO.

Because Sakurai logic.

On this basis, we can also say "Lucas was already scrapped during melee development. He's not that worthwhile.
He was relavent with brawl, due to Mother 3.

That's a personal opinion. I personally wholeheartedly disagree.

Citation needed for marketing claim, and it wasn't even that popular in Japan because those poor sales include all Japanese sales.

That's what the numbers say. Earthbound can be the best thing since sliced bread to you but you must understand that you are not the embodiment of every other person around.

I didn't, and that was the point of Pit. He was a retro throwback. He was designed to make folks say, "wow look at this old game it's kinda cool!" Nintendo has always been cool!"

F-Zero was a bigger franchise than Earthbound back then (still is technically,) and I had the same reaction with Ness. I saw this character and had no clue who he was. I've met one person who knew who C falcon was, but not a single person who knew who Ness was (off the top of my head.)


Yeah, Sakurai puts in what he wants. But wants For what reason? Wants to put them in because they'll sell? These reasonings are not mutually exclusive. The bottom line is that Smash bros has a bottom line, profit.

And Pikmin is an amazing game, I love Pikmin. It totally deserves a rep. It has a rep. It deserves less reps than the mario series because the Zelda series is just plain better.

You are personally free to think Earthbound was a gift from the Gods. You are free to think that at least 50-60% of the Smash Roster should be from Earthbound characters. You are free to think that a person must be forced to send $1,000 to the Earthbound 4 Development Fund in order to play Smash Bros. However, don't let your personal bias get in the way of an objective analysis of a character being in the game. I personally would marry Skull Kid 60 times if I could, but I think he has a snowball's chance in the Gobi Desert to make it in Smash 4..

And btw, stop comparing Lucas who is at this point in Earthbound's history "just another Earthbound character" with Marth who at this point in FE's history "is the legendary Fire Emblem character."

Because I've played the game so I know it's value over someone who has no experience? I thought of earthbound the same way you did when I first played Brawl. Hated the characters. Least favorite. Now 3rd and 4th. Amazing what a little background knowledge'll do. No you can't say that. Lucas wasn't in melee due to the delay of Earthbound 64 which turned in Mother 3 on the Gameboy Advance that came out after melee's release. Don't down my opinion then man. Many others share it, and I feel as if you are attacking it without basis, since you've never actually completed one. Its a well known fact that it sold well but if you want numbers than I'll look into it. You acted as if Pikmin didn't deserve a rep a all, and I'd personally love to see Louie or a character from Pikmin 3. And just because you don't know anyone means no one does. Right. Um you're totally missing the point. Choosing characters for smash has never been about profit. if it was then it would be loaded with Mario/Zelda/Pokemon as you suggest, but its not. R.O.B, Mr.Game&Watch, Ness, Lucas,Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer all got in. Sakurai knew alot of the weren't popular but they still got in. You saying EarthBound isn't popular or didn't sell well doesn't deny its place in Smash. I ask for 1 mother character and you overreact? Did I ever say that it was a gift from the gods? Did I not reiterate twice that I was not asking or a revival? And of course, Skull Kid is irrelevant. That's really just like saying Marth's just another Fire Emblem character. You're obviously biased against the series XD You probably would've gave me the same spiel if I was arguing a point of Lucas getting into Brawl. Somebody needs a vacation in Magicant. Don't know how to do this whole quote separating thing #n00b

Try to edit your posts into one, Silverjay. Triple posting isn't usually favored upon.

Unfortunately for the Mother series, of which I love very much might I add, its only lifeline is any representation it gets in Smash Bros. and the Mother fandom itself. That being said, Earthbound's community isn't large enough to where demand for Porky or the Masked Man is actually noticed by Sakurai and therefore are both not likely to get in via popularity. That means thl at unless Sakurai makes a special exception, Earthbound is a small series that will likely see no more characters than Ness and Lucas. As much as it pains me to say so, series quality often does not measure up to series quantity in Smash Bros.'s representation.

I would still very much love to see a third and final Mother character, though. Just not Ninten.

.....How? #n00b Wait nvm. Nope couldn't do it. #n00b I just need to go to bed...

 

[EddyBearr]

Because I've played the game so I know it's value over someone who has no experience? I thought of earthbound the same way you did when I first played Brawl. Hated the characters. Least favorite. Now 3rd and 4th. Amazing what a little background knowledge'll do.

More personal opinion.

No you can't say that. Lucas wasn't in melee due to the delay of Earthbound 64 which turned in Mother 3 on the Gameboy Advance that came out after melee's release.

Concede that. More reading made me come to that conclusion as well.

Don't down my opinion then man.

I'm downing your assertion that your opinion is an objective reality, as opposed to just an opinion. You can have whatever opinions you want.

Many others share it, and I feel as if you are attacking it without basis, since you've never actually completed one.

Couldn't complete one because they just weren't good enough early on to hook me.

Its a well known fact that it sold well but if you want numbers than I'll look into it.

yeah, it sold **well** but it didn't sell as well as Wario, Yoshi, or even Game & Watch.

You acted as if Pikmin didn't deserve a rep a all, and I'd personally love to see Louie or a character from Pikmin 3.

No, I said it deserves less reps than mario/zelda/pokemon. Less doesn't mean 'none." Just not as many. "I think we can very clearly agree that Mario and Zelda deserve more representation than Pikmin and Game&Watch."

And just because you don't know anyone means no one does.

I never even came close to implying that no one knew who ness was before Smash. Never even close. I did imply that it was far less known than other Nintendo characters, which we can agree on.

Right. Um you're totally missing the point. Choosing characters for smash has never been about profit. if it was then it would be loaded with Mario/Zelda/Pokemon as you suggest, but its not.

In Melee, Mario/Zelda/Pokemon took up 15 of the 26 character slots. More than half.
In brawl, Mario/Zelda/Pokemon took up 17 of the 36 character slots. Just under half.

Bigger money makers get more representation. Everything that has ever been sold ever has the bottom line of profit. Welcome to capitalism.

R.O.B, Mr.Game&Watch, Ness, Lucas,Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer all got in. Sakurai knew alot of the weren't popular but they still got in.

ROB, G&W, and Pit were "throwback" gimmicks. Ness was rightfully represented in Smash 64. Lucas wasn't necessary in Brawl but as you said, Sakurai likes them. This doesn't change the fact that more popular franchises get more reps. Wii Fit was one of the most sold nintendo franchises of all time, and truly deserved a rep. Sakurai did say he choose her to make people say "wat" when she was announced.

You saying EarthBound isn't popular or didn't sell well doesn't deny its place in Smash.

I never said it doesn't deserve a place in Smash. I want 1 Earthbound rep to stay.

I ask for 1 mother character and you overreact?

You asked for a total of three reps: Ness, Lucas, and Ninten. 3 reps out of probably 45 that can happen is far too much for a franchise as small as Earthbound.

Did I ever say that it was a gift from the gods?

It's an expression that means "you really like it."

Did I not reiterate twice that I was not asking or a revival?

I never brought up anything involving revivals. Ever. Not once. Pointless comment.

And of course, Skull Kid is irrelevant.

So is every Earthbound rep except Lucas and Ness, and they're only relevant because they're already veterans.

That's really just like saying Marth's just another Fire Emblem character.

Is Lucas treated as a legendary hero in games he doesn't appear in? cause Marth is. Marth is the legendary Fire Emblem character. Roy "is just a fire emblem character." Ike is "just a fire emblem character." Marth is the most famous, most legendary (in the games' plots,) the most playable (he's been in the most games,) character in all of Fire Emblem.

You're obviously biased against the series XD

No, I'm trying to be reasonable. @_@ Give me a reason to give Earthbound three reps that isn't just your personal opinion and I will start arguing for Earthbound having three reps.

You probably would've gave me the same spiel if I was arguing a point of Lucas getting into Brawl.

I would have argued against having two reps due to it being such a small franchise in comparison to other Smash franchises. I would have favored replacing Ness for Lucas for relevancy reasons.

Somebody needs a vacation in Magicant.

Someone needs a vacation on Earth.

Don't know how to do this whole quote separating thing #n00b

{quote}wordsarequotedhere{/quote} use square brackets instead [ ]

 

[Silverjay323]

More personal opinion.


Concede that. More reading made me come to that conclusion as well.


I'm downing your assertion that your opinion is an objective reality, as opposed to just an opinion. You can have whatever opinions you want.


Couldn't complete one because they just weren't good enough early on to hook me.


yeah, it sold **well** but it didn't sell as well as Wario, Yoshi, or even Game & Watch.


No, I said it deserves less reps than mario/zelda/pokemon. Less doesn't mean 'none." Just not as many. "I think we can very clearly agree that Mario and Zelda deserve more representation than Pikmin and Game&Watch."


I never even came close to implying that no one knew who ness was before Smash. Never even close. I did imply that it was far less known than other Nintendo characters, which we can agree on.


In Melee, Mario/Zelda/Pokemon took up 15 of the 26 character slots. More than half.
In brawl, Mario/Zelda/Pokemon took up 17 of the 36 character slots. Just under half.

Bigger money makers get more representation. Everything that has ever been sold ever has the bottom line of profit. Welcome to capitalism.


ROB, G&W, and Pit were "throwback" gimmicks. Ness was rightfully represented in Smash 64. Lucas wasn't necessary in Brawl but as you said, Sakurai likes them. This doesn't change the fact that more popular franchises get more reps.


I never said it doesn't deserve a place in Smash. I want 1 Earthbound rep to stay.


You asked for a total of three reps: Ness, Lucas, and Ninten. 3 reps out of probably 45 that can happen is far too much for a franchise as small as Earthbound.

It's an expression that means "you really like it."


I never brought up anything involving revivals. Ever. Not once. Pointless comment.


So is every Earthbound rep except Lucas and Ness, and they're only relevant because they're already veterans.


Is Lucas treated as a legendary hero in games he doesn't appear in? cause Marth is. Marth is the legendary Fire Emblem character. Roy "is just a fire emblem character." Ike is "just a fire emblem character." Marth is the most famous, most legendary (in the games' plots,) the most playable (he's been in the most games,) character in all of Fire Emblem.


No, I'm trying to be reasonable. @_@ Give me a reason to give Earthbound three reps that isn't just your personal opinion and I will start arguing for Earthbound having three reps.


I would have argued against having two reps due to it being such a small franchise in comparison to other Smash franchises. I would have favored replacing Ness for Lucas for relevancy reasons.


Someone needs a vacation on Earth.



{quote}wordsarequotedhere{/quote}

Um "putting 1000 bucks into Earthbound 4 development" Which would be a sequel, which would be a revival. I wanted 3 Mother reps for 3 games. A series that has ended and is a part of Nintendo's History. I never said only Mother Characters. FE, and KI could also use reps. I like you said, don't want it being half Mario/Zelda/Pokemon. You don't like Mother and don't want to see another rep, but Sakurai likes it. Said it himself. It's why he tried to have Lucas put in sooner, and why I think Ninten could in. I never said he had to. I'm just pretty sure Lucas and Ness will stay. Only time will tell. Like I said Sakurai does what he wants, not what's practical. I've given my reason for 3 mother reps in another post:

"I'm not asking for a return, but for proper recognition for the amazing franchise. Strengths? Well it was one of the most unique, humorous RPGs up to date and still is, Story has in depth meaning about going beyond just a kid's game in all 3. Rather than explain, just play the games. The Characters, Ness for being a badass, Ninten for being even more of a badass, and Lucas for having substantial character development if you actually know what's he's been through. Nothing will quite do what Itoi managed to do with Mother, and I believe that deserves representation. I would like to go into story, but that'd take too long to fully express XD" That's why. There is a possibility. May not be a high one but its there. I'll just agree to disagree.​

 

[AEMehr]

So, in an attempt to shut up about the Skull Kid argument. How do you guys like my new roster? Ray and Robin are the customizable characters btw

I wanted to comment on this.

I really don't like the idea of customizing existing video game characters. Because it can be guaranteed that there will be many limitations on them to keep them true to their games. If you want a customizable character, Mii is your best bet.

But hey, that's just what I think though.

jokes on you
dark pit was already playable and that was even before he existed

so technically, dark pit is already confirmed

 

[EddyBearr]

Um "putting 1000 bucks into Earthbound 4 development" Which would be a sequel, which would be a revival.

That wasn't meant to be interpreted that way. It was just another way to say "you really like it."

I wanted 3 Mother reps for 3 games.

By that logic, let's get like 30 fire emblem reps and 10+ wario reps.

A series that has ended and is a part of Nintendo's History.

Lots of gamse are in Nintendo's History. There's simply not enough room to rep them all on Smash Bros.

I never said only Mother Characters.

Wasn't meant to be taken literally. Another expression to exemplify how much you like Earthbound.

FE, and KI could also use reps.

Some reps. You have to be reasonable based upon how many franchises could use representation and how much room we actually have.

I like you said, don't want it being half Mario/Zelda/Pokemon.

It's going to be at least 1/3 Mario/Zelda/Pokemon because Mario/Zelda/Pokemon make up at least 1/3 of Nintendo's popularity/sales/demand/etc.

You don't like Mother and don't want to see another rep,

I don't like Metroid, and I say metroid should have 2 or 3 reps. I don't like Pokemon all that much but I think Pokemon should have at least 4 reps. I'm not basing representation off of what I personally like, but based upon what's actually objectively meritable.

but Sakurai likes it. Said it himself.

Which is why it's over-represented in Brawl.

It's why he tried to have Lucas put in sooner,

He tried to replace Ness for Lucas. He acknowledged that, in Melee, out of 25 slots, only 1 should be Earthbound, but he also acknowledged that Star Fox deserved 2 and Pokemon deserved 4.

and why I think Ninten could in.

They're very weak reasons, but technically anything is possible.

I never said he had to.

I'm saying it's so unlikely that it's almost not worth discussing.

I'm just pretty sure Lucas and Ness will stay.

There's a good chance of both staying, and a good chance of only one staying. As yo usaid, Only time will tell.

Like I said Sakurai does what he wants, not what's practical.

What he wants and what's practical aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe he wants what's practical. Sakurai also wants to please the fans and get as many sales as possible. He wants to rep everything that deserves representation.

I've given my reason for 3 mother reps in another post:

Let's see how much is opinion.

"I'm not asking for a return, but for proper recognition for the amazing franchise. Strengths? Well it was one of the most unique, humorous RPGs up to date and still is,

Opinion​

Story has in depth meaning about going beyond just a kid's game in all 3.

Sounds like every other game.. @_@​

Rather than explain, just play the games.

Tried it. I found them terrible.​

The Characters, Ness for being a badass, Ninten for being even more of a badass, and Lucas for having substantial character development if you actually know what's he's been through.

Ness and Nintent are subjective interpretations aka opinions. Lucas having a troubled past is something Skull Kid has as well, as well as.. well gee.. most video game characters. This is not a unique strength.​

Nothing will quite do what Itoi managed to do with Mother, and I believe that deserves representation.

Double opinion​

I would like to go into story, but that'd take too long to fully express XD" That's why. There is a possibility. May not be a high one but its there. I'll just agree to disagree.

​

We all acknowledge possibility, but you're making it seem like it's a realistic possibility. There is a possibility that the ducks from duck hunt could be in Smash, and a possibility that Naruto will be in Smash, but they're not "realistic" so we don't take them seriously. Honestly, Ninten is pretty unrealistic.​

You have yet to give any objective reasoning for 3 Earthbounds. Things like fan demand, name recognition, popularity, relevancy, sales, and polls are true evidence, not "I think this has a great story."

You'd be hard-pressed to find a moderately successful (or better) game that doesn't have a deep story to it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I leave the forums for two days...

TWO DAYS PEOPLE!

Either ways. This is both hilarious and depressing. Not sure how I feel.

 

[IsmaR]

This like should cheer you up.

 

[FalKoopa]

Oh my god. What happened in the last few pages? 0_0;

Mods. Ban Noah. Please.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This like should cheer you up.

Thank you for the like but...

If you take some crap and dump some cake on it, there is still crap there.

Know what I mean?

On the other hand, that was amazing cake. I'll save you from a koopa anytime.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Oh my god. What happened in the last few pages? 0_0;

Mods. Ban Noah. Please.

Skull Kid v. Dark Pit, I think.

Call me crazy, but I sometimes wonder if MorbidAltruism is a sockpuppet account.

No, don't ban Noah.