Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[IsmaR]

It's New Year's Eve and you guys are arguing about directors?

Here's to yet another year of awful speculation and terrible arguments.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Here's to yet another year of awful speculation and terrible arguments.

Hip hip notsohooray.

 

[Johnknight1]

Again, the creator is the only one who truly knows.

I think the folks at Game Arts may know, and many of them didn't like him, although it sounded like what he initially did was really great.

Still, I think largely they are a sub par studio, and not one worthy to be Smash's primary developer. I also think they have potential to be a good studio with further training, which I think would be worth it if Nintendo or another big name studio bought them out and "groomed them" into a better studio, much like what coaches aims to do with their players.

For say a game developer was to add multiplayer to a 3D Zelda game, you would quickly toss Miyamoto for the new guy, because he's doing what you want. That's why you choose to not have Sakurai; he's not doing what you want; he's doing what's right for the series, but you can't see that.

If Sakurai did what is right for the series, then why was Brawl such a gigantically flawed game in so many obvious and stupid ways=???

From awful character balancing (specifically Meta Knight, who everyone knew was broken), to being overly defensive at all levels of play, to an awful SSE experience, to terrible netcoding and online servers, to loading time issues that fans made fixes for, etc., Brawl had an insane amount of issues or "missing" things.

Really, Sakurai isn't set in stone as the best thing for Smash ever. History will ultimately judge his performance. So far he has done two spectacular jobs and one letdown of a job as head director, although to the extent each time we won't know. But alas, the more smash games he does, the more we'll know about how good of a job he does. Hopefully my worries are wrong, and he is the man for the job, and he gets his health, work schedule, and personal stuff in order so he can make the best game and live the best life and lifestyle.

Wrapping this back on topic, I am optimistic with Namco Bandai as the developer, and I think that along with the top producers (including Sakurai) they will make a fantastic roster, like the Brawl roster before it.

 

[Arcadenik]

Personally, I prefer the Brawl clones over the Melee clones... but Melee Ganondorf is superior to Brawl Ganondorf... give Melee Ganondorf that choke side special move and I'm good to go...

Lucas, Toon Link, Wolf, and Melee Ganondorf are my favorite clones... but I really wish Sakurai didn't keep Toon Link a clone in SSB4... he isn't a last minute filler clone this time so why keep him a clone? I thought "uniqueness" and "moveset potential" were the key factors in adding characters to SSB4... I guess the unique thing about Toon Link is that he is the better version of Link... a Link that doesn't suck... what a novel idea!

 

[Johnknight1]

Also for those of you that say Melee had a better roster because HAL was in charge, think about this :
Melee had people like Dr. Mario, and Roy, a clone of Marth. HAL did better?

The clones was design choice by the whole team, including Sakurai. Instead of adding say King Dedede (someone Sakurai mentioned specifically), they added all those clones (except Luigi, who was already in the game).

They were also a late add, not an early add. The team just finished the planned roster early because they were efficient (if we get extra characters like that, clone original, I will not complain!).

HAL made those characters better by adding nice touches. Falco is the opposite from Fox in almost every way. Young Link is very different from Link in style and strengths. Ganondorf is a powerhouse, whereas Captain Falcon is a speedster. Pichu and Roy... are essentially inferior versions of the characters they are cloned of. Doc is basically a slightly better Mario.

To be fair to the crew, Luigi is less of a clone each Smash game, Falco now only borrows like 6 moves from Fox, Toon Link is getting more and more different from Link, Ganondorf was much more different from Captain Falcon in Brawl, and Pichu, Doc, and Roy (for better or worse) were gone in Brawl. Oh, and the new "clones" Lucas and Wolf are pretty much at worst semi-clones with minimal similarities.

Gradually each smash game, clones become not clones, and in Brawl we had the new "clones" (Lucas and Wolf) be anything but very similar to Ness and Fox (and Falco). That's one hugely positive thing we've had happen each smash game.

 

[Gune]

Happy new year!

 

[Johnknight1]

jeez, dude. I was just satirically imitating the greedy and ungrateful fans who would want Sakurai to be booted off the project after everything he worked so hard on to give us.

It isn't just Sakurai though. With Brawl the main development team had over 100 workers at Game Arts, Monolith Soft, and Cero, along with hundreds of outside of those companies.

Melee had probably a smaller staff.

Really, Sakurai is ultimately one guy. He shouldn't make or break the game, but that's exactly what he was in Brawl. It's too much power for one man, and it more likely leads to failure.

After all, in elections, we have votes from multiple people, not just one man. We trust many opinions over one opinion.

That's why games have multiple directors, and why the Soul Calibur director is almost an equal with Sakurai this time around. It not just will likely make the game better and more efficiently made, it will make what Sakurai is involved with better and more efficiently made.

Keeping to one role is also what makes the theory and execution of industrialization so successful (everyone is a specialist of a very few tasks, but does this at a much faster rate).

 

[Pacack]

Personally, I prefer the Brawl clones over the Melee clones... but Melee Ganondorf is superior to Brawl Ganondorf... give Melee Ganondorf that choke side special move and I'm good to go...

Lucas, Toon Link, Wolf, and Melee Ganondorf are my favorite clones... but I really wish Sakurai didn't keep Toon Link a clone in SSB4... he isn't a last minute filler clone this time so why keep him a clone? I thought "uniqueness" and "moveset potential" were the key factors in adding characters to SSB4... I guess the unique thing about Toon Link is that he is the better version of Link... a Link that doesn't suck... what a novel idea!

And the Sparta Kick. Can't forget the Sparta Kick.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I saw this point brought up earlier.

Slowpoke I know, but I want to talk about it.

First of all, I'm 99% sure Ridley isn't a stage hazard.

The main reason being?

Where is he?

It's been months. MONTHS! And no sign of Ridley.

Now, if Pyrosphere was rarely shown, than that wouldn't mean anything, but we've seen every inch of that stage. Multiple pictures. It's one of the most shown stages to date. I think only Battlefield and maybe Pilotwings and the Boxing Arena beat it.

No Ridley. No sign of him either.

If Ridley was a hazard, then he the whole stage would have to be designed around that hazard. That's how hazards work. You take the source material, think of the hazard you want and design the layout so that the hazard works with the gameplay while staying true to the source material.

So, if Ridley is a stage hazard, why has Sakurai shown SO much of Pyrosphere without showing it's main draw?

It doesn't make sense.


EDIT: And woah! John! What are you doing here?

 

[IsmaR]

Ironic considering my stance on the matter, but they went even longer without showing him in Brawl, Swamp.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ironic considering my stance on the matter, but they went even longer without showing him in Brawl, Swamp.

Different circumstances.

Ridley was a boss in Brawl. Part of the story. Sakurai only showed the beginning of SSE's plot to avoid spoilers. Ridley was a boss mid and late game.

Ridley being a stage hazard isn't exactly what I'd call a spoiler.

 

[Arcadenik]

Have you considered the possibility that the probable reason why they haven't shown Ridley on Pyrosphere is because they knew that showing him as a stage hazard now would have triggered a meltdown of epic proportions before the game is even out... so they would rather let people buy the game first and then discover that Ridley is a stage hazard.

 

[JPW]

Am i the only one who enjoyed the SSE Mode in Brawl?

I also think Brawl's roster is perfect. Every character there has a right and had a big influence in Nintendo's past history and at the time were kind of relevant the only missing was Megaman who is now in Smash 4.

 

[IsmaR]

It is if Sakurai is aware of the backlash he'd get. Also Rayquaza says hi.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

First of all, I'm 99% sure Ridley isn't a stage hazard.

The main reason being?

Where is he?

It doesn't make sense.

That's not a good enough basis to be 99% sure. Where does this whole "It doesn't make sense" thing come from? Did it make sense that we didn't get a Pokemon reveal after X & Y? Why does Sakurai HAVE to show Ridley as soon as everyone else? What if he just doesn't care? Hell do we even know if that's ALL there is to see about the Galaxy Stage? How long until we see the rest of Rainbow Road and Wuhu Island? Why did Toon Link take so long if he was gonna be playable? Are we 99% Sure Little Mac isn't in? I mean we got his stage last year in June in the first trailer and no sign of him. Why would Sakurai prolong it so much?

The answer: because he's Sakurai. He doesn't do EVERYTHING in an organized pattern. Why all of the sudden does Sakurai's way of doing things need to ALWAYS make sense?

This is a good basis to assume Ridley isn't a stage hazard, but not to be 99% sure of it.

 

[Arcadenik]

I consulted my Magic 8 Ball regarding Ridley... this is what I got: "REPLY HAZY TRY AGAIN"

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That's not a good enough basis to be 99% sure. Where does this whole "It doesn't make sense" thing come from? Did it make sense that we didn't get a Pokemon reveal after X & Y? Why does Sakurai HAVE to show Ridley as soon as everyone else? What if he just doesn't care? Hell do we even know if that's ALL there is to see about the Galaxy Stage? How long until we see the rest of Rainbow Road and Wuhu Island? Why did Toon Link take so long if he was gonna be playable? Are we 99% Sure Little Mac isn't in? I mean we got his stage last year in June in the first trailer and no sign of him. Why would Sakurai prolong it so much?

The answer: because he's Sakurai. He doesn't do EVERYTHING in an organized pattern. Why all of the sudden does Sakurai's way of doing things need to ALWAYS make sense?

This is a good basis to assume Ridley isn't a stage hazard, but not to be 99% sure of it.

99% was a bit of an exaggeration. But my point still stands.

 

[BKupa666]

I'm curious whether it's the same people saying "Sakurai's quote means Ridley is a stage hazard" saying that "Sakurai's quotes are useless because nothing is predictable."

 

[Arcadenik]

I'm curious whether it's the same people saying "Sakurai's quote means Ridley is a stage hazard" saying that "Sakurai's quotes are useless because nothing is predictable."

You know how some people cherry pick verses from holy books to support their opinions? We are doing the same thing with Sakurai's quotes.

 

[Arcanir]

Have you considered the possibility that the probable reason why they haven't shown Ridley on Pyrosphere is because they knew that showing him as a stage hazard now would have triggered a meltdown of epic proportions before the game is even out... so they would rather let people buy the game first and then discover that Ridley is a stage hazard.

Eh, a meltdown is going to happen regardless of if it's a couple days from now or a year from now, if Ridley's a hazard it's better to cut the knot then to leave it tied and let the chandelier fall on the unsuspecting banquet later on.

Having said that, I won't say that it's 100% likely that Ridley isn't a hazard, I doubt it but there's always that slight possibility still there until we get full footage of it.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Speaking of stuff we don't quite understand and character's roles being unconfirmed. I think it makes perfect sense for Phantom Zelda to be an AT. That was the most popular thing about Spirit Tracks besides the train was Zelda's role as a Phantom and it was pretty popular in Phantom Hourglass. Why not it make it the Toon AT? It's the perfect choice. I thought it was going to Byrne, but I didn't think about Phantom Zelda.

 

[Arcadenik]

Why would Sakurai reveal an Assist Trophy but not make it the focus of a Pic of the Day? He did it with Skull Kid, Nintendog, and Starfy... why is the Phantom Knight the exception?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Why would Sakurai reveal an Assist Trophy but not make it the focus of a Pic of the Day? He did it with Skull Kid, Nintendog, and Starfy... why is the Phantom Knight the exception?

Because apparently the only plausible moveset change to Zelda is dropping Sheik.

 

[Arcadenik]

Because apparently the only plausible moveset change to Zelda is dropping Sheik.

Oh... I see... if that's the case... well, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[IsmaR]

Because apparently the only plausible moveset change to Zelda is dropping Sheik.

Which is hilarious in hindsight considering before people were sure Sheik would be guaranteed to return if they didn't go with the Skyward Sword design. And yet here we are beating the dead horse.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, if he's only in one in-series title, Karate Joe seems to be the better representative. Why do you prefer the wrestler?

And one would say the same thing about Bowser Jr. being the better representative to Rosalina, yet Rosalina was included instead.

In the case of Karate Joe vs. Wrestler, Joe may have the number of appearances as an advantage, but in general is rather bland and unknown (Wrestler himself is memetic worldwide).

You do realize that Meowth has been planned as playable in every SSB game and still maintains a major role in the anime? He's eons more important than Jigglypuff and HIVsaur.

.....

First someone brings up the false Plusle & Minun in Brawl, now the "Meowth planned for SSB4" nonsense rises from the woodwork too.....and if that wasn't enough, a claim that he was planned for every Smash game without any sources.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It is if Sakurai is aware of the backlash he'd get. Also Rayquaza says hi.

To be perfectly honest, if Sakurai put Ridley as a hazard, he's not too concerned with the backlash.

And Rayquaza was early in the game which I said Sakurai showed.

 

[BKupa666]

Why would Sakurai reveal an Assist Trophy but not make it the focus of a Pic of the Day? He did it with Skull Kid, Nintendog, and Starfy... why is the Phantom Knight the exception?

I've been waiting for somebody to ask this, because I think the answer is relatively straightforward. Brawl had 27 ATs, and if we conclude that we'll get as many, if not more ATs in this game, that's over a month of AT pics right there, with not all that many months left to go before release (12 maximum). Considering how much else there is to reveal about the game in pics alongside ATs, it makes perfect sense to sneak one into a related pic of the day so as to condense content revelation down a bit.

I think a lot of the "Phantom Zelda is obviously a new move" banter largely stems from desire for it to be a new move. I don't think we'd see comparable "revamp" discussions had, say, Bowser been shown doing a pose he's already been seen doing elsewhere but with a Koopaling in front of him.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Did Sakurai say Miis were gimmicky? I suck at finding quotes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Did Sakurai say Miis were gimmicky? I suck at finding quotes.

Gimmicky no.

He said that they weren't fit for smash due to their casual and peaceful nature.

But with Villager here, that was thrown out the window!

 

[Arcanir]

I've been waiting for somebody to ask this, because I think the answer is relatively straightforward. Brawl had 27 ATs, and if we conclude that we'll get as many, if not more ATs in this game, that's over a month of AT pics right there, with not all that many months left to go before release (12 maximum). Considering how much else there is to reveal about the game in pics alongside ATs, it makes perfect sense to sneak one into a related pic of the day so as to condense content revelation down a bit.

I think a lot of the "Phantom Zelda is obviously a new move" banter largely stems from desire for it to be a new move. I don't think we'd see comparable "revamp" discussions had, say, Bowser been shown doing a pose he's already been seen doing elsewhere but with a Koopaling in front of him.

Hmm, I'm a bit hesitant to agree with your assessment. For the Bowser thing, the idea with the pose is that Zelda is completely new and just showcased and we haven't really seen that pose whereas your example has been around for months and showing the Koopaling with a pose we've seen multiple times wouldn't garner that much attention because we know most likely it's not something new (though probably still some).

Really, my feelings on the idea of Phantom Zelda thing is that it's been showcased along with the character and has more direct ties to the character via its scheme so that does lend to the possibility that it could be a new move. It could be an AT, it defies what's been done before but it's not impossible, but at the same time I wouldn't put more stock in that then I would it being a new move.

 

[BKupa666]

No, it wasn't due to them being casual or peaceful either, at least not in that context. From Iwata Asks:

"Of course, I think there was a possibility of taking Smash Bros. in a more casual-gaming direction. For example, we could make the art style simpler or make it possible to use Mii characters. However, with the various titles that Wii was to offer, I felt that people were looking for something different."

The way I see it, he saw Miis as representative of a library of Wii games from which he wanted to keep Brawl separate. Whether that has changed or not with these games is anyone's guess. Though I have to say, if he found Miis too casual for his admittedly casual-focused Brawl, it would follow that he'd also find them too casual for his Smash game he's aiming to be a middleground between Brawl and Melee, right? Or when it's even rarer for games to not feature Miis at this point, would Sakurai suddenly start thinking "people are looking for" more of the same in his game? [Side note, he references "what people are looking for," alluding to trying to appeal to the fans with newcomer choices yet again.]

EDIT: The Zelda pose was shown separately in her screenshot on the Galaxy stage, despite it having been revealed in her initial collection of pics. Yeah, my Bowser example could have used some rewording, but my point would still stand had he initially gotten a pic posing with a Koopaling or Kamek or somebody.

 

[Brim]

I need these. The world needs these.



Well,who would you want to see? I like Black Shadow more. He reminds me of a classic comic book villain, much like Falcon reminds me of a superhero. But Goroh would be easier to make more unique character I feel. So I'd like to see either of them.

(Meant to respond earlier) Probably Goroh to be honest. I mean, Black Shadow might be neat, the problem I have with him is he isn't the most recognizable character from F-ZERO as far as I'm aware. Also, I feel like they'd have to BS his moves into the game, with Goroh it'd be generally easier just because of the simple fact he has a sword. And, he has attack animations from Brawl since he was an assist trophy that could hurt you. I'm not saying they're good animations -- but it's something.

 

[Anderceus]

So… Dr. Luigi for SSB4?
http://youtu.be/A_HDOXAMnZo

 

[Deleted member]

Different contexts of "casual", really.
Brawl casual is in regards to the ease for newer players to pick up the game and have a chance to win and have fun.
Mii casual is in regards to...well...waggle Wii Remote to do ****. Considering all Miis really had at the time, Wii Sports and Wii Play.....yeah, it's easy to see why Sakurai passed up on them in the past when compared to everything they've had up to this point.

 

[Arcanir]

EDIT: The Zelda pose was shown separately in her screenshot on the Galaxy stage, despite it having been revealed in her initial collection of pics. Yeah, my Bowser example could have used some rewording, but my point would still stand had he initially gotten a pic posing with a Koopaling or Kamek or somebody.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, had he been shown with a Koopaling or Kamek initially, there would be the same reaction we'd be seeing right now with Phantom Zelda.

As for the pose in the second picture, I've heard it both ways really and to be fair, it wouldn't be the first time Sakurai has manipulated the circumstances for some hilarity. Regardless, I'd assume we'll know soon enough.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Apparently if a reveal defies what's been done before in Sakurai's revealings for things with the same role, there's no way it shares the same role.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Have you considered the possibility that the probable reason why they haven't shown Ridley on Pyrosphere is because they knew that showing him as a stage hazard now would have triggered a meltdown of epic proportions before the game is even out... so they would rather let people buy the game first and then discover that Ridley is a stage hazard.

I don't think the backlash would be that great honestly. On Smashboards? Oh hell yes. In general? Nah. We Ridley fans would be dissapointed, sure, but Ridley isn't even the most popular character, heck, his popularity is non-existant outside the west. The only big backlash I can see happening would be if they deconfirm Mewtwo, which probably isn't happening. Ridley's deconfirmation for Brawl was obviously the biggest downer for me, but it wasn't anything too big overall, it's not like copies were lost because of it, people were too busy crying over Mewtwo and R.O.B instead.

 

[Frostwraith]

Yep, this thread moves too fast. Did anything interesting happen here?

Anyway, happy New Year to you all.

 

[Sharkarat]

The problem with the phantom is that is makes as much sense being an AT as it being a part of zelda's moveset.
There's really nothing that makes either way a clear frontrunner.
And we don't know what sakurai thinks about making changes to veterans.