Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

Am I really seeing both pro-clone extremists and anti-clone extremists within the same argument?

Both sides on the extremity scale are equally dumb.
Clones aren't bad by any means, but that doesn't mean clones should be added "just because", especially if there is no logic behind the decision (such as Lyn being an Ike clone; that makes no lick of sense whatsoever).

 

[MagnesD3]

Clones suck they are bland and unimaginative, (also many people are calling certain characters who aren't clones, clones).

As for Isaac and saki they aren't just a little more popular it's like 80/20 with the fan base, also don't underestimate the amount of people who play golden sun and s&p.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Clones suck they are bland and unimaginative, (also many people are calling certain characters who aren't clones, clones).

As for Isaac and saki they aren't just a little more popular it's like 80/20 with the fan base, also don't underestimate the amount of people who play golden sun and s&p.

Again, I put emphasis on "WITH THE FANBASE" They are WAY more popular TO THE FANBASE.In fact come to think of it. 80/20 is an incredibly unrealistic way to describe how much more popular they are EVEN to the fanbase.

also the clones being bland and unimaginative.........well, you're gonna have to just live with it if you feel that way. You are entitled to that opinion, but that's not gonna make Sakurai remove all the semi-clones and refrain from making more.

Once again the games are not popular enough for that to matter as it would with games like Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Legend of Zelda, or Pikmin.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Am I really seeing both pro-clone extremists and anti-clone extremists within the same argument?

Both sides on the extremity scale are equally dumb.
Clones aren't bad by any means, but that doesn't mean clones should be added "just because", especially if there is no logic behind the decision (such as Lyn being an Ike clone; that makes no lick of sense whatsoever).

I certainly hope you're not implying I'm one of said anti-clone extremists. I'm not saying clones are outright bad. All my stance is on this is that, if possible, characters should be created so that they are distinct from one another. Beyond that, it sounds as if you and I share the same view on all this.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Both of you need to calm down.

On second thought... This is hilarious. Keep going.

 

[Deleted member]

It seems I misinterpreted your stance. My apologies.

Though we may differ a little, because I feel clones can be distinct in their own way.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Clones aren't bad.

But we would all prefer an original moveset if given the choice.

However, we can all agree that clones are better than nothing.

 

[Curious Villager]

I only want to see a character in as a clone if that's the only option left for them when there is very little time left for them to get in (of course they must make sense though, Ganondorf and Falcon or Lyn and Ike is a no go) otherwise, they should put some effort in them to make them at least a bit different.

In other words, I agree with GoldenYuiitusin.

Clones aren't bad.

But we would all prefer an original moveset if given the choice.

However, we can all agree that clones are better than nothing.

Yeah I'd rather have Toon Link in as a clone than not having him in at all if it has to be that way, though it would be nice if they could differentiate him a little more though, even if by a little bit. (Fire/Ice arrows and more control where to fire them, hurricane spin, bomb chu's etc)

 

[MagnesD3]

Again, I put emphasis on "WITH THE FANBASE" They are WAY more popular TO THE FANBASE.In fact come to think of it. 80/20 is an incredibly unrealistic way to describe how much more popular they are EVEN to the fanbase.

also the clones being bland and unimaginative.........well, you're gonna have to just live with it if you feel that way. You are entitled to that opinion, but that's not gonna make Sakurai remove all the semi-clones and refrain from making more.

Once again the games are not popular enough for that to matter as it would with games like Star Fox, Fire Emblem, Legend of Zelda, or Pikmin.

Btw I don't consider semi clones as clones. The only clones left are falco, toon link and (unfortunately Ganon). They need to fix these guys or cut them (must fix Ganon). I'd also like more tweaking on semi clones.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I don't consider Falco to be a clone. He's a semi-clone at best, considering how his moveset has been one of the most Luigified ones of all in Brawl. The same can be said with Ganon. While his moveset is certainly similar to Captain Falcon's, it plays extremely differently. If his animations were tweaked and if he was given different specials, there would be nothing left to compare Ganondorf and Captain Falcon in terms of use.

Toon Link is strangely one of the clones I'm okay with. I would be even more happy if his specials were different from the elder Link's entirely, but the idea of keeping similar swordplay just makes sense. Of course, the idea of changing Toon Link's specials is just my own ideal. Toon Link is fine where he is either way.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

In my opionion. There is NOTHING wrong with having at least one character with the same moveset as long as their is a unique enough twist to it. Like Falco kicking his Sheild, PK Freeze, Green Missile, and the entire moveset of Wolf. I think having semi-clones being a problem because they are uncreative is just whining. It's like "What? Sakurai didn't give you enough characters??? You know he didn't HAVE to have Toon Link, Wolf, and Lucas. He could leave you with 32 characters if you want. I think having Lucas, Wolf, and Toon Link being playable was more important in the eyse of Sakuraio than bringing back Roy. And I agree. Other wise he wouldn't have wasted his time with them and would have focused on implementing Roy & Mewtwo.

Which might I add to GodRobert's post. If semi-clones were put in due to time constraints, wouldn't it make more sense to just take the time it took for Lucas, Toon Link, and Wolf to finish Mewtwo if they were being programmed so close to the game being finished. Obviously Sakurai thought the addition of those 3 characters was more important.

And once again (I've mentioned this several times.) Proof that Sakurai doesn't replace characters for being clones is that he had Lucas AND Ness. Ness was kept because people liked the CHARACTER, which is why he will keep Falco & Ganondorf. Because having the CHARACTER is important. And if the only way you can have them is to make them slightly
similar another character, that's really not as bad as clone nazis make it out to be.

If HYPOTHETICALLY, Sakurai's only way of adding Ridley, Paulatena, or some other highly requested character was to make them clones of someone else, would you insist that he NOT add any of those characters?

Should we remove Luigi too? He has Pikacu's Skull Bash and Mario's other moves.

 

[Sebz]

And once again (I've mentioned this several times.) Proof that Sakurai doesn't replace characters for being clones is that he had Lucas AND Ness. Ness was kept because people liked the CHARACTER, which is why he will keep Falco & Ganondorf. Because having the CHARACTER is important. And if the only way you can have them is to make them slightly
similar another character, that's really not as bad as clone nazis make it out to be.

1) If HYPOTHETICALLY, Sakurai's only way of adding Ridley, Paulatena, or some other highly requested character was to make them clones of someone else, would you insist that he NOT add any of those characters?

2) Should we remove Luigi too? He has Pikacu's Skull Bash and Mario's other moves.

1) Yes, I would rather forgo the inclusion of a new character if it meant they don't become clones. I am still dumbfounded as to why Ganondorf didn't get a unique moveset from day 1.

2) I would insist that they remake Luigi actually, and have him get a moveset that includes the vaccuum from Luigi's Mansion. Heck, give falco different weapons and make unique too!

Are clones bad? No.
Are clones bad when you forgo a unique character? Yes.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So if you don't care who it is, and you would rather your favorite character NOT get in rather than have similar moves, let me ask this:

Would you rather have EVERY character be a Salami Sandwich under the circumstance that they all have different moves???

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't consider Falco to be a clone. He's a semi-clone at best, considering how his moveset has been one of the most Luigified ones of all in Brawl. The same can be said with Ganon. While his moveset is certainly similar to Captain Falcon's, it plays extremely differently. If his animations were tweaked and if he was given different specials, there would be nothing left to compare Ganondorf and Captain Falcon in terms of use.

Toon Link is strangely one of the clones I'm okay with. I would be even more happy if his specials were different from the elder Link's entirely, but the idea of keeping similar swordplay just makes sense. Of course, the idea of changing Toon Link's specials is just my own ideal. Toon Link is fine where he is either way.

Falco has several of the same technique's, they need to work harder to differentiate him from fox as they did wolf, ganon definitely needs new specials and some new normal animations to gain more of his own identity, and if toon link were to stay they need to have him use different tools and work on his normals to help differentiate him and normal link more (also make link good). Also Id like them to change Lucas's specials more.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

So if you don't care who it is, and you would rather your favorite character NOT get in rather than have similar moves, let me ask this:

Would you rather have EVERY character be a Salami Sandwich under the circumstance that they all have different moves???

If we were playing Salami Slammer '14, I most certainly would.

Of course, we won't be getting sandwiches. We'll be getting characters. As much as WFT annoys me, for example, I'd sooner prefer seeing her get in over Leif or Ninten on part of that her moveset would actually be unique from others of her series. By a long shot.

If we want clones badly enough, we'll create textures and vertex hacks on existing characters like we did in Brawl. A character that brings nothing new to the roster in terms of gameplay is both against Sakurai's intentions and is plain bad game design in general.

 

[Autumn ♫]

So if you don't care who it is, and you would rather your favorite character NOT get in rather than have similar moves, let me ask this:

Would you rather have EVERY character be a Salami Sandwich under the circumstance that they all have different moves???

But, Salami Sandwhiches aren't feasible and didn't originate in a videogame.

 

[Sebz]

So if you don't care who it is, and you would rather your favorite character NOT get in rather than have similar moves, let me ask this:

Would you rather have EVERY character be a Salami Sandwich under the circumstance that they all have different moves???

If it's a Nintendo made Salami Sandwich then sure!
What a strawman that was, I was super exited when I saw the Villager and Wii Fit Trainer (I have never played animal crossing or Wii Fit). Two characters that I have absolutely no experience with and yet add so much more than any clone ever has or ever will.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

I'm slowly coming to the realization that this is the only forum that's even remotely intelligent about the subject of character inclusions. I was talking about WFT and the Villager, praising their unique design structure as characters, and I said they were much better picks then any B-tier Mario or Zelda rep (Specifically Rosalina and Midna were my examples) and I got flamed super hard. I then decided to talk about how Takamaru would be a likely retro rep and got the counter argument of Little Mac...

Remind me never to talk Sm4sh on another forum again <.<

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Am I really seeing both pro-clone extremists and anti-clone extremists within the same argument?

Both sides on the extremity scale are equally dumb.
Clones aren't bad by any means, but that doesn't mean clones should be added "just because", especially if there is no logic behind the decision (such as Lyn being an Ike clone; that makes no lick of sense whatsoever).

Who told you Lyn was an Ike clone. I do believe I mentioned This:

Was quite similar to Aether. And that her Assist Trophy attack could be implemented into Ike's Forward B

But, with ALL these moves:

I WILL BE BAFFLED IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE IT INTO SSB4 WITH THIS MUCH POTENTIAL.

I think I officially classify Lyn as my top most wanted Smash Reps.

But, Salami Sandwhiches aren't feasible and didn't originate in a videogame.

Well, the fact you thought I was serious when considering A SALAMI SANDWICH to be a Smash rep is surprising. Pointing out why a Salami Sandwich doesn't work in SSB is completely unnecessary. I don't think you understood the POINT of the question.

Would you prefer everybody was the exact same person as long as they had different moves even if they weren't a Nintendo character?

Also if you answered YES to that question than I see you really are not interested in the concept of Super Smash Brothers at all and that you are only interested in the moves. So you guys DON'T care if EVERY single Smash rep was removed including Mario as long as their replacement has their own moves. How could you be a smash fan. That is just absurd.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'm slowly coming to the realization that this is the only forum that's even remotely intelligent about the subject of character inclusions. I was talking about WFT and the Villager, praising their unique design structure as characters, and I said they were much better picks then any B-tier Mario or Zelda rep (Specifically Rosalina and Midna were my examples) and I got flamed super hard. I then decided to talk about how Takamaru would be a likely retro rep and got the counter argument of Little Mac...

Remind me never to talk Sm4sh on another forum again <.<

I can say that I have felt the same pain you experienced at one point. This forum really is decent in terms of that, with the exception of a few individuals, of course.

I'll remind you tomorrow night, good sir.

Would you prefer everybody was the exact same person as long as they had different moves even if they weren't a Nintendo character?

Guys, I think he's honestly lost it at this point. He believes we're striving for one character in several slots. Nobody is asking for that, yet apparently "Not characters that will be clones" apparently translates to "One guy that can have multiple movesets".

I'm crying.

 

[MagnesD3]

Who told you Lyn was an Ike clone. I do believe I mentioned This:

Was quite similar to Aether. And that her Assist Trophy attack could be implemented into Ike's Forward B

But, with ALL these moves:

I WILL BE BAFFLED IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE IT INTO SSB4 WITH THIS MUCH POTENTIAL.

I think I officially classify Lyn as my top most wanted Smash Reps.





Well, the fact you thought I was serious when considering A SALAMI SANDWICH to be a Smash rep is surprising. Pointing out why a Salami Sandwich doesn't work in SSB is completely unnecessary. I don't think you understood the POINT of the question.

Would you prefer everybody was the exact same person as long as they had different moves even if they weren't a Nintendo character?

Also if you answered YES to that question than I see you really are not interested in the concept of Super Smash Brothers at all and that you are only interested in the moves. So you guys DON'T care if EVERY single Smash rep was removed including Mario as long as their replacement has their own moves. How could you be a smash fan. That is just absurd.

Lyn would be so cool, but the odds are that roy and even chrom (sadly) will get in before her chrom is unfortunately the flavor of the month while lyndis is iconic to the western fire emblem audience.

 

[jaytalks]

The Starfox similar movesets make sense because all the special moves mimic the abilities of an arwing. Blaster = Laser, Reflector = Barrel Roll, Recovery Firefox manuever = Boost. I would just give them each a unique forward special, but I prefer if they keep everything else.I even want Krystal having the same special moveset. The Links work well too since the special moves each Link uses are all his most iconic weapons.

Luigi should get the vacuum for his down special.

Well, potentially. I remain unconvinced that popularity among Smash fans will do anything for Roy this time around, as it certainly didn't save him in Brawl.

Roy is an interesting case in that he's one of two cut characters who have massive demand for their return, but he has no real reason to appear if framed within the context of his series. I'll be curious to see how Sakurai handles him this time. A 3rd FE rep may give us some insight into Sakurai's thought process, as Roy is the most popular FE character among dedicated Smash fans but not among FE fans.

I agree with you. In comparison to Mewtwo, Mewtwo has a cool new form and a bigger role in the next game. Roy was DLC and got a new redesign like many of the other popular lords (Lyn, Ike, etc). Mewtwo is much better positioned in its respective franchise. Roy's standing is his series hasn't improved because he hasn't had the opportunity, but that the nature of his series. I don't think it's a race against Roy and Chrom. It's between Chrom and another lord, with Chrom having the advantage.

I don't have a problem with characters having similar movesets as long as it makes sense in the context of the series, and for the most part, they usually do.

 

[xBlitz]

Marth is an obvious choice to stay, but Radiant Dawn Ike, Chrom AND Roy? I like the idea Too bad if anything were to happen, Roy would be the only one dropped because he is a double, and Chrom could fix that close relative problem... and I truly hope Ike returns :D

 

[Autumn ♫]

Well, the fact you thought I was serious when considering A SALAMI SANDWICH to be a Smash rep is surprising. Pointing out why a Salami Sandwich doesn't work in SSB is completely unnecessary. I don't think you understood the POINT of the question.

I was kidding. Calm down please.

 

[mimgrim]

Roy was DLC and got a nice new redesign like many of the other popular lords (Lyn, Ike, etc).

nice new redesign (Ike)

Ike's redesign is...... Nice? I mean your entitled to your opinion in all but do you really think DLC Ike looks.... Nice? That DLC design of Ike.... Just doesn't fit him....And jsut looks so hideous to me that I really want to tear out my eyes when I look at it... So please enlighten me on how it is nice looking. Q_Q

 

[jaytalks]

Ike's redesign is...... Nice? I mean your entitled to your opinion in all but do you really think DLC Ike looks.... Nice? That DLC design of Ike.... Just doesn't fit him....And jsut looks so hideous to me that I really want to tear out my eyes when I look at it... So please enlighten me on how it is nice looking. Q_Q

No I was referring to Roy's, and then included the other lords. I don't like it either.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Noah doesn't calm down. He does not know the word.

He makes elaborate, long winded posts that attempt to be logical and make a point by using graphics and videos and "in-depth speculation analysis". However, despite all that angered-fueled typing, he never accomplishes anything because, well, everyone just ignores him. I'm pretty sure people have people no longer give a **** about the guy.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Ike's redesign is...... Nice? I mean your entitled to your opinion in all but do you really think DLC Ike looks.... Nice? That DLC design of Ike.... Just doesn't fit him....And jsut looks so hideous to me that I really want to tear out my eyes when I look at it... So please enlighten me on how it is nice looking. Q_Q

I ended up removing this instead of the other post. I feel pretty upset that I have to say all this again.

Basically, I think Ike's design is ugly mostly on part of perspective. If we got a better view, the metallic look with the red cape-scarf might actually look better than what was shown.

Marth is likely to return with his DLC look, and everyone loves Roy's DLC design, so it'd only make sense that if Ike returns, he'll have the DLC look as well, (unfortunately for some) for consistencies sake. It'd make little sense from a director's standpoint to choose the most recent design for only some characters.

Noah doesn't calm down. He does not know the word.

He makes elaborate, long winded posts that attempt to be logical and make a point by using graphics and videos and "in-depth speculation analysis". However, despite all that angered-fueled typing, he never accomplishes anything because, well, everyone just ignores him. I'm pretty sure people have people no longer give a **** about the guy.

In Soviet Russia, Noah ignores me.

Actually, that's over here, too. I was one of the few giving him much attention in the first place, ironically enough.

 

[mimgrim]

Honestly, I think his redesign may have been an unfortunate case of bad perspective. Like, if there was a view of a more standard pose, I'm sure the armored look would be much more appealing to the eye.

Either way, if Ike returns, we may be stuck with that look. With characters using more recent designs, it only makes sense that Marth will be using his DLC design in Awakening. Roy's DLC design is practically unanimously loved as well. To avoid inconsistencies, Ike would use his DLC design as well, otherwise that'd be strange that Sakurai would choose the most up-to-date designs of some characters yet choose the "better" design for others. It makes very little sense from a director standpoint.

I really don't see DLC desing being used at all... Since its.. well a DLC design. Marth should have the design from Heroes og Light and shadow, Ikr from Radiant Dawn, and IF Roy does make it in he should have his Binding Blade design, despite the DLC being awesome, Same goes for Lyn IF she makes it in, as I still suspect Chrom to make it over the both of them. I just don't think DLC designs from other games will be used, now if they make DLC designs from other game into DLC for Smash then thats fine, I just won't buy it. xD

 

[jaytalks]

Honestly, I think his redesign may have been an unfortunate case of bad perspective. Like, if there was a view of a more standard pose, I'm sure the armored look would be much more appealing to the eye.

Either way, if Ike returns, we may be stuck with that look. With characters using more recent designs, it only makes sense that Marth will be using his DLC design in Awakening. Roy's DLC design is practically unanimously loved as well. To avoid inconsistencies, Ike would use his DLC design as well, otherwise that'd be strange that Sakurai would choose the most up-to-date designs of some characters yet choose the "better" design for others. It makes very little sense from a director standpoint.

In Soviet Russia, Noah ignores ME.

Actually, that's over here, too. I was one of the few giving him much attention in the first place, ironically enough.

Fortunately, I feel like Nintendo goes for the character's most memorable appearances. The designs also reflect their class in the game, since all Spotpass characters just used the games classes. Lyn has two swords like any other sword master, for example. Sakurai chooses the most up to date designs only if they are one of the main playable characters in the game, I think. And Links looks more TP than SS after all.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Fortunately, I feel like Nintendo goes for the character's most memorable appearances. The designs also reflect their class in the game, since all Spotpass characters just used the games classes. Lyn has two swords like any other sword master, for example. Sakurai chooses the most up to date designs only if they are one of the main playable characters in the game, I think. And Links looks more TP than SS after all.

You should take that up with Other M Samus and Command Fox, then.

 

[jaytalks]

You should take that up with Other M Samus and Command Fox, then.

Fortunately, I feel like Nintendo goes for the character's most memorable appearances. The designs also reflect their class in the game, since all Spotpass characters just used the games classes. Lyn has two swords like any other sword master, for example. Sakurai chooses the most up to date designs only if they are one of the main playable characters in the game, I think. And Links looks more TP than SS after all.

I didn't say the most memorable appearance, but appearances. Like they can be a combination or come from just one source. I tend to think all games that are in the series normal canon or original series (not spin-offs) are technically memorable, even if they are terrible.

Being DLC in which you don't even get a custom character model is not a memorable appearance.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I don't think using designs from the two worst received games in the Starfox and Metroid fanbases, however, are the type of memorable we want.

They happen to be the most recent games in their series (not counting Starfox's remake), regardless of how "memorable" they are. Ergo, I think Sakurai goes on recentness of a design, not memorability.

 

[jaytalks]

I don't think using designs from the two worst received games in the Starfox and Metroid fanbases, however, are the type of memorable we want.

They happen to be the most recent games in their series (not counting Starfox's remake), regardless of how "memorable" they are. Ergo, I think Sakurai goes on recentness of a design, not memorability.

Part of Smash Bros is accepting Nintendo history, the good and the bad. Those games are in the series canon. I'll call them notable appearances because that describes what I mean better. All game designs in the core series are notable regardless of quality.

Like I said, Link is still looking like a brighter TP Link, so it's whatever the developer's judgement is. I agree on average we will see more of their most recent notable appearances. I just dont think they will use the FE:A redesigns because it was not a notable appearance for the character. Technically, they didn't even appear. It was the Einherjar card version of former fighters.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox doesn't even use Command design.
Brawl's design is original, though it borrows from Command in things like the head structure.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Noah doesn't calm down. He does not know the word.

He makes elaborate, long winded posts that attempt to be logical and make a point by using graphics and videos and "in-depth speculation analysis". However, despite all that angered-fueled typing, he never accomplishes anything because, well, everyone just ignores him. I'm pretty sure people have people no longer give a **** about the guy.

Well, remember that there is only so much stupidity you can take from Smash fans. Everybody knows Smash fans are the worst and largest in number of idiots.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

*Waits for FalKoopa to post "Dis Gon B Gud" gif.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

*Waits for FalKoopa to post "Dis Gon B Gud" gif.

I never got that. If you're gonna post that, shouldn't it be followed by something "good" like perhaps something that would prove the previous post wrong. I guess Gifs automatically prove posts wrong now.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

[collapse="He said my name four times!"]

[/collapse]

I also like how he claims to have not used any .gifs during the whole Skyward Sword bit when he very well indeed created an image of Zelda being X'd out just for said occasion. Well played memory, good sir!

And yes, I'm one of THOSE Smash fans (if you know what I mean). The ones that can actually accept the idea of opposition winning. The same kind of guy that doesn't rip you a new one for not wanting such popular choices as Eirika and Ninten. A terrible thing, I'm sure, Noah.

The fact that I'm now ignored by him is fantastic on part of how I can actually give a difference in perspective without being treated like an absolute criminal. I'm loving it.

 

[TheTuninator]

I don't think using designs from the two worst received games in the Starfox and Metroid fanbases, however, are the type of memorable we want.

They happen to be the most recent games in their series (not counting Starfox's remake), regardless of how "memorable" they are. Ergo, I think Sakurai goes on recentness of a design, not memorability.

There doesn't really seem to be a consistent pattern. Samus pulls from Other M now, but Link is still mostly TP, and to take a previous example, Ike drew on PoR, not RD.

Sakurai seems to do pretty much whatever he wants for the costumes. Unfortunate for Samus, as her older designs do look better, but what can you do, right? The Other M Zero Suit also looks worse, but we'll probably get that too. Unfortunate.

Whether or not they will use the FE:A redesigns will be interesting. Marth looks good, and Roy's redesign is pretty cool as well, albeit a bit busy, but Ike looks significantly worse.