Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[DonutFinder]

I'm saying that the bigger the franchise, the more it deserves a character or characters.

Also I can tell you didn't read the whole post I made so I'm not gonna try and help you out again.

Also see you guys tomorrow or later day I'm off for now. DSG(don't stop gaming)

 

[EddyBearr]

Also I can tell you didn't read the whole post I made so I'm not gonna try and help you out again.

Also see you guys tomorrow or later day I'm off for now. DSG(don't stop gaming)

I read your entire post, but I only replied to that which was relevant. We're talking about whether representation absolutely doesn't matter or not.

Your post expressed displeasure from Brawl, and that you think Roy might come back because he, in your view, added some nice aspects to Smash. You also say that Megaman came in because he added some nice things.

You saying that "what a character adds to smash matters" doesn't do anything for whether or not franchise representation matters. They can both matter, and indeed I'm convinced they both do.

 

[DonutFinder]

I read your entire post, but I only replied to that which was relevant. We're talking about whether representation absolutely doesn't matter or not.

Your post expressed displeasure from Brawl, and that you think Roy might come back because he, in your view, added some nice aspects to Smash. You also say that Megaman came in because he added some nice things.

You saying that "what a character adds to smash matters" doesn't do anything for whether or not franchise representation matters. They can both matter, and indeed I'm convinced they both do.

Look man (one last post is what i keep telling myself. But here finally the last one.)
Your logic in more money the game sells the more (luck) a character gets for an entrance, is somewhat true but mostly trash.Not to insult anyone but, only arrogance follows from your logic. A character if you have noticed has to have a (in my words) ZING to get included I gave examples, I made my point. Good Day Sir.

Spoiler

Not sure why a double spoiler...

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm flattered the Roster Maker 7.0 liked my idea for the Mii icon. And congratulations to Ariand/AEM for making it.

 

[Starphoenix]

Emotional argumentation is not going to help you get anywhere Donut. As for the argument of "bigger games = more characters", it is not so much because a series is big, in and of itself, that warrants more characters, but rather the bigger a series is the more recognizable those characters will likely be to communities beyond video game enthusiasts. Of course, the other side of the coin is that you want to have surprises. A game with little variety isn't going to be very fun; even Sakurai himself has said as much.

 

[EddyBearr]

Look man (one last post is what i keep telling myself. But here finally the last one.)
Your logic in more money the game sells the more (luck) a character gets for an entrance, is somewhat true but mostly trash.Not to insult anyone but, only arrogance follows from your logic. A character if you have noticed has to have a (in my words) ZING to get included I gave examples, I made my point. Good Day Sir.

"Is somewhat true but mostly trash"
Where is the evidence? This is what I have been asking for this entire time. No one has provided me any evidence that it's "absolutely no," "somewhat trash," or anything else. The most people can say is, "personally, I don't see much value in that, so I don't think lkie that," but that's subjective territory, and a point where we must agree to disagree.

And yes, I never denied that they must also must have their own unique thing. I've been arguing this for a long time. I said there are many factors.

 

[Sid-cada]

Nobody gave a crap about Ice Climbers, and even back in the day it was pretty panned and considered one of the weaker NES/Famicom launch titles.

As awkward as those jump mechanics may be, do remember that the main programmer considered it a warm up for Super Mario, which, yeah, don't need to explain that. Quite a few Nintendo folks got their start on it, actually. I also consider Ice Climbers to be Nintendo's first cooperative multiplayer game, as I see the only other multiplayer game before it (Mario Bros.) to be more of a competitive game.

As for what makes for a better roster, I'd say being able to connect with the character trumps all. Being able to make folks like a charter, allowing fans of the old ones to enjoy all the references while attracting a new audience, determines if a character succeeds or not. I don't care if you have the best, most ballenced moveset ever; if you can't make folks enjoy that charater, they might as well not be in at all.

Do keep in mind, however, that move set matters little in how much a person cares about someone. Look at Roy for proof: that "inferior last-minute Marth clone" still has a vocal, dedicated fan base even after being cut out.

Let's look at Lucas and Ness to see what I mean. Lucas has a number of taunts that don't exactly feel taunt worthy, tripping and being bitten by the Rope Snake. A larger number of moves revolve around the psychic powers he has, which more often than not have more lag than Ness's. Even his Neutral Special is harder to hit with. Lucas, then, is characterized as being weak and cowardly, and tries to inspire sympathy from an audience who wishes to protect him. This is a large contrast to Ness, who seems braver and more certain of himself, ready to take on the world with whatever comes his way with anything (namely, that bat and yoyo).

I could go on and on for countless "similar" characters here. Heck, I've already done it. Not once, but twice. In fact, with the reveal of Toon Link, I think this is what Sakurai means by having characters "unique." Even if they aren't that different, they feel different enough that people will like them anyway.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Can I just talk about this whole representation discussion? First, I don't know Sakurai, what is going through his head, but I think I have an idea.

I think character "amounts" does matter a bit, as, for example, bigger franchises like Mario or Zelda should have more characters than franchises like Kid Icarus or Fire Emblem.

However, that is just the amounts a franchise should have, or what we expect should have. Characters who get in do not represent their franchise, they're just grouped into it with the other characters of their franchise. Characters represent themselves, and how iconic they are in their respective franchises. And if they're important enough in Sakurai's eyes, then he will add them. Not due to representation. But due to how important that specific character is.

I'm going to read the discussion again, to formulate my idea a little bit more accurately, but this is the basis.

 

[EddyBearr]

Let's look at Lucas and Ness to see what I mean. Lucas has a number of taunts that don't exactly feel taunt worthy, tripping and being bitten by the Rope Snake. A larger number of moves revolve around the psychic powers he has, which more often than not have more lag than Ness's. Even his Neutral Special is harder to hit with. Lucas, then, is characterized as being weak and cowardly, and tries to inspire sympathy from an audience who wishes to protect him. This is a large contrast to Ness, who seems braver and more certain of himself, ready to take on the world with whatever comes his way with anything (namely, that bat and yoyo).
Even if they aren't that different, they feel different enough that people will like them anyway.

I've long argued that clones should refer to what a character "feels" like, as opposed to what they do.
With that said, I don't think something as technical as a few frames of move lag will make casuals, the main audience, think two characters "feel" too different. All of that example is digging awful deep to apologize for having two psychic boys. I'd agree it's canon (as far as I know, it is, Lucas had a terrible life,) and it's kinda cool when you really do get down to the details, but it relies on interpretation, it could end up not being the case, and to untrained eyes that are more focused on who finds the first pokeball/assist-trophy than how a character's lag plays into the fight, I don't think you'll see much difference between Ness & Lucas.

With all the filthy casuals I've associated with, Ness and Lucas are separated by, "Lucas seems color and has blonde hair." That's about it. Then the Space Animals are just a mess..

However, that is just the amounts a franchise should have, or what we expect should have. Characters who get in do not represent their franchise, they're just grouped into it with the other characters of their franchise. Characters represent themselves, and how iconic they are in their respective franchises. And if they're important enough in Sakurai's eyes, then he will add them. Not due to representation. But due to how important that specific character is.

I don't think you can quite cast it off yet. I think a franchise' style plays into the character. Olimar is a perfect example of representing his franchise, as his playstyle of "using pikmin to accomplish tasks, more thought = better results" perfectly represents the Pikmin games.
Pokemon Trainer also represents the Pokemon Games, especially with Fatique and trying to combat enemy weaknesses with the right pokemon.

With that said, I'd agree it's the least of the "representation factors."

IMO, "Representing themselves > representing franchise importance (character count) > representing franchise style.

Luigi is a rare example of being in because of his franchise. His self isn't terribly different from Mario, and there are plenty of Mario options that could fill the 2nd mario rep role better/add more unique stuff, but he is the "Mario's brother" in Mario Bros. Similar example would be Zelda, because she didn't have much inherent combat potential, but not nearly as much as Luigi.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Tom Nook is iconic enough to be added into Smash 4, and Animal Crossing is a very popular franchise to warrant two AC characters.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Tom Nook is iconic enough to be added into Smash 4, and Animal Crossing is a very popular franchise to warrant two AC characters.

Oh, he certainly is iconic, and I can totally see him getting in one day. But for this Smash.... I dunno. It's possible, but they might just keep Villager by his lonesome for this game. But AC totally warrants 2 characters.

 

[Arcadenik]

If I have to have clones back in SSB4, I'd rather them to be Toon Link, Wolf, Lucas, and Melee!Ganondorf with Brawl!Ganondorf's Flame Choke (please replace Ganondorf with Toon Ganondorf, Sakurai).

 

[BluePikmin11]

Oh, he certainly is iconic, and I can totally see him getting in one day. But for this Smash.... I dunno. It's possible, but they might just keep Villager by his lonesome for this game. But AC totally warrants 2 characters.

I see it quite necessary, if there aren't any other franchises Sakurai wants to add, there's always Tom Nook.

 

[EddyBearr]

Tom Nook is iconic enough to be added into Smash 4, and Animal Crossing is a very popular franchise to warrant two AC characters.

Tom Nook's biggest hurdle, imo, is moveset potential. More importantly, meaningful/personal/fitting moveset potential.

Because of that, I used to opt for K.K. Slider and his guitar (so much more potential, as a guitar can be a weapon in many ways,) as opposed to Nook. Plus, I dunno about all of you, but K.K. Slider was "cool" to me, unlike Tom Nook, who was just "the dude who owns my house and sells me stuff," leading to more appeal.

That is, until the genius that is Villager came in.

 

[TumblrFamous]

If I have to have clones back in SSB4, I'd rather them to be Toon Link, Wolf, Lucas, and Melee!Ganondorf with Brawl!Ganondorf's Flame Choke (please replace Ganondorf with Toon Ganondorf, Sakurai).

Or, or, or.... we can just declone Ganondorf. It's a little unlikely, but Sakurai could finally cave into fan demands and give him a combinations of different, unique attacks).

 

[BluePikmin11]

Tom Nook's biggest hurdle, imo, is moveset potential. More importantly, meaningful/personal/fitting moveset potential.

He basically is a merchant who uses furniture for attacks with Tanooki Mario-like powers.
It's pretty easy to think of moveset potential.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Do you guys think we will get a Pokemon reveal? Do you think Zelda might be revealed? Any other character?

I NEED A REVEAL I DONT CARE WHO IT IS I JUST NEED A REVEAL PLEASE SAKURAI I NEEDZ A REVEAL!!!!

 

[EddyBearr]

He basically is a merchant who uses furniture for attacks with Tanooki Mario-like powers.
It's pretty easy to think of moveset potential.

But how does that represent Tom Nook? Tom Nook has never been known to throw a sofa at you. Heck, I've never seen Tom Nook do much of anything in regards to even doing anything with furniture, other than somehow turn it into a leaf.

This isn't meaningful/personal/fitting moveset potential. This is the same kind of moveset potential as a box of corn flakes, which can throw corn flakes at you, flatten you, etc. Just because it theoretically can happen and it kinda relates to him doesn't mean he it's a fitting fighting style for him.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Tom Nook's biggest hurdle, imo, is moveset potential. More importantly, meaningful/personal/fitting moveset potential.

Moveset potential is scarcely an issue, IMO. Sakurai does a good enough job with making unique movesets for odd characters. And while the Villager does have a large amount of AC moves, but that doesn't even break the surface of AC moveset potential.


A move I would like to see Tom Nook do is called Debt. Any projectile, whether it be PK, Din's Fire, Bob-ombs, can be stored as bells in Tom Nook's pocket. Then, when he has three projectiles, he can throw the "debt" right at an opponent as a close-range move. Think of G&W's Down B.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Tom nook could maybe make buildings rise up like that assist trophy sims guy.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Yeah pretty good point, but it was something I could easily think of at the top of my head.

 

[Arcadenik]

Tom Nook's biggest hurdle, imo, is moveset potential. More importantly, meaningful/personal/fitting moveset potential.

Sakurai could make Tom Nook swing his tail and fly like Tanooki Mario (I don't want another Mario) and transform into statues (the same statues from New Leaf AND Statue Mario)...

 

[BluePikmin11]

Tom nook could maybe make buildings rise up like that assist trophy sims guy.

That's a good idea. he should plant those house as sort a mine, then house pops up and does massive damage to the opponent.

 

[TumblrFamous]

But how does that represent Tom Nook? Tom Nook has never been known to throw a sofa at you. Heck, I've never seen Tom Nook do much of anything in regards to even doing anything with furniture, other than somehow turn it into a leaf.

This isn't meaningful/personal/fitting moveset potential. This is the same kind of moveset potential as a box of corn flakes, which can throw corn flakes at you, flatten you, etc. Just because it theoretically can happen and it kinda relates to him doesn't mean he it's a fitting fighting style for him.

WFT has never hit you with a yoga position outside of Smash....

In fact, how does anything in the Villager's moveset represent him? He never hits a person with a slingshot, or buries them. But he uses tools that represents who he is. Tom Nook can use furniture, debt, and maybe his tail for attacks.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Maybe he could have a gimmick where his buildings keep getting stronger by "upgrading" the buildings. It could be based on his kills or something.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Tom Nook is iconic enough to be added into Smash 4, and Animal Crossing is a very popular franchise to warrant two AC characters.

Oh, god! Not again!

 

[Arcadenik]

Or, or, or.... we can just declone Ganondorf. It's a little unlikely, but Sakurai could finally cave into fan demands and give him a combinations of different, unique attacks).

Yes.... declone Ganondorf by making him look like Toon Ganondorf and give him two swords like Toon Ganondorf... but he is still named "Ganondorf".

 

[Sid-cada]

I've long argued that clones should refer to what a character "feels" like, as opposed to what they do.
With that said, I don't think something as technical as a few frames of move lag will make casuals, the main audience, think two characters "feel" too different. All of that example is digging awful deep to apologize for having two psychic boys.

Eh, that was just an example of Gameplay and Story Integration I thought of on the spot. They take that personality and incorporate it into the move set, enhancing and allowing both to support one another. Still, though, you're ignoring the bigger picture, as you have dismissed those taunts, and I had forgot about those idle poses. Even a simple voice clip (and trust me, a simple line when read differently, or even none at all, can be a big difference) or facial expression can help out. I see characterization as one of the quickest ways to make a person like a character, even if they are a clone.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Yeah TumblrFamous basically sums up of what attacks he could use.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Do you guys think we will get a Pokemon reveal? Do you think Zelda might be revealed? Any other character?

I NEED A REVEAL I DONT CARE WHO IT IS I JUST NEED A REVEAL PLEASE SAKURAI I NEEDZ A REVEAL!!!!

Let's not talk about it on this thread.

 

[Lasifer]

Tom Nook should be an alternate costume for the Villager. Problem solved. Too bad Sakurai is a lamer and won't add actual alternate costumes and give the Wario treatment to everyone else.

Pretty sure we'll see a character reveal within the next two weeks.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Oh, god! Not again!

Hey, it's possible. I personally don't think it will happen in this game, but anything goes. Tom Nook is the second most important character in the AC franchise, he has huge potential, and he's overall an important Nintendo character. That fits the bill.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Yeah TumblrFamous basically sums up of what attacks he could use.

I don't think he was making a serious move set, dude.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Mr. Resetti could be like muddy Mole and have a digging gimmick to add to the roster and have unique pick axe attacks.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Oh, god! Not again!

Why do you hate Animal Crossing in particular?
There's plenty of characters from the series that have plenty of moveset potential.

 

[IsmaR]

Melee Ganondorf is long dead, in my opinion. However I could definitely see Ocarina of Time Ganondorf (complete with long flowing hair) being his spiritual successor with a half-magic, half physically beating the **** out of you moveset. Y'know, something actually becoming of a demonic wizard thief king that turns into a giant pig because of an enchanted triangle.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Hey, it's possible. I personally don't think it will happen in this game, but anything goes. Tom Nook is the second most important character in the AC franchise, he has huge potential, and he's overall an important Nintendo character. That fits the bill.

A: He does not have any potential
B: None of this changes the fact that you're about as pointless as a second Mr. Game & Watch. You can have all of these features and still be a character that simply doesn't work at all.

 

[Arcadenik]

Sakurai should replace Ness with Ninten.... all Sakurai has to do is rename Ness "Ninten".

 

[SuperBrawler]

Maybe in SSB6 or 7 we can get Isabelle
I just mentioned to make a moveset.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I don't think he was making a serious move set, dude.

Not a serious moveset, but summing up what his attacks could be. For smashes he can smash a chair on someone, or throw a bell at someone, have something with houses.

Dammit, now I want him in the game.