Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[TheLastJinjo]

I think King K. Rool deserves it more than Dixie Kong.

I don't

Why would Pink Ridley make it in over Purple Ridley? Is he a more reasonable size?

Sakurai is using Other M designs.

 

[Johnknight1]

Even on Melee's cover, it says "Nintendo's All-Stars." Are you telling me that Dillon the Armadillo is a bigger All-Star than, say, Waluigi, or Falco?

Not Falco, but definitely Waluigi. Nintendo doesn't even like him, hence why he's only in crappy Mario spin-off titles.

No clue what "hipster" has to do with anything, but I have a feeling the "more representatives" viewpoint you're attacking is a strawman.

Yep. You're an internet hipster, because only internet hipsters use the word "strawman."

but I do feel we should have more mario characters than any other franchise, because Mario is more to Nintendo than any other franchise.

Well that's not gonna happen, unless you count Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario franchise characters as Mario.

Thus, your "representation" folly is defeated.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

I don't

I do.

----

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Love this roster Saturn.

D'aww thanks!

I do.

I don't

 

[Deleted member]

Yep. You're an internet hipster, because only internet hipsters use the word "strawman."

Hey, wait a second...

I USE THE WORD STRAWMAN!!

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Not Falco, but definitely Waluigi. Nintendo doesn't even like him, hence why he's only in crappy Mario spin-off titles.

I hate when people say he's not "popular"
Popular means WELL KNOWN!

Many people DISLIKE Waluigi
But people know of him, so he is POPULAR.

 

[Johnknight1]

What a **** ultimatum that is...

I'd rather have a good game. The time spent on 4 clones could be spent on ONE character. I'd rather have that one character.

Actually no, the estimate based on Melee is 6 Melee-esk clones takes up less time than 1 original character.

Sakurai doesn't seem to know how to work the Transforming character concept, considering all 3 of his attempts at it are ****.

I dunno, if it wasn't for the fact the balancing was so bad with each attempt (they were almost always OP or UP to extremes), it wouldn't be a problem, along with the fact the PT's Pokémon can't function individually. If Zelda was balanced in Melee or Brawl, no one would complain.

If the PT didn't have the stamina system, few would complain about the PT, either.

As for ROB, people don't care for him cause he's boring to play as. He's got no real concrete playstyle, compare Brawl ROB to PM ROB, PM ROB is miles more interesting and a fun surprise, Brawl ROB just leaves you wondering "why is he even on here?"

Exactly the point I was getting to.

And Falco? Well, he's a better Fox than Fox is. He flows REALLY damn well, and see, it's the characters that flow that are really good, and fun to play as, not all of them are top tier, but they sure are damn fun, Ike is a good example of this, both in PM and Brawl (esp in PM, damn is that mofo fun). So, if less clones means more characters like Peach, Falco, Marth, Ike, and so on, then so be it.

...The only part I'd like to argue is Fox, but it sounds like you're talking more about Brawl Fox, which I think is an abomination.

No need to waste a slot on a character no-one is gonna play...

Thank you. Which is why we want good characters first. Add unique characters first, make the clones less clone-y. Also, the fact Wolf, Falco, and Lucas are considered full on clones is a joke. Don't even get me started on the "Lucario is a Mewtwo clone" morons, because they shouldn't be legally allowed to reproduce.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I hate when people say he's not "popular"
Popular means WELL KNOWN!

Many people DISLIKE Waluigi
But people know of him, so he is POPULAR.

I think the word you're thinking of is infamous.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Dillon is definitely a better Nintendo All-Star than Waluigi. Nintendo doesn't even like him, hence why he's only in crappy Mario spin-off titles.

 

[Johnknight1]

I hate when people say he's not "popular"
Popular means WELL KNOWN!

Many people DISLIKE Waluigi
But people know of him, so he is POPULAR.

Well I wasn't discussing "popularity", but rather who is more of a "Nintendo All-Star".

Sorry, but only appearing in Mario sports spin-offs and Mario Party does not make you a "Nintendo All-Star".

If it does, then Toadette is a Nintendo All-Star, Funky Kong is a Nintendo All-Star, and those genericx b***ard sons of Bowser are Nintendo All-Stars.

 

[EddyBearr]

@ Teddywhatsyourface

If Representation is a thing...

... then you mind telling me why the likes of Falcon, Ness, and G&W ever got in?


And also why we got THREE Star Fox characters in Brawl despite the last SF game being the mediocre Command on the DS, and Assault on GCN doing rather poorly.


Burden of proof my friend, there is little going for you when it comes to proving that Sakurai does as you say.

F-Zero was big in the late 90's. F-Zero getting represented in some way mattered, it's interesting that they chose him as a character.
Ness I'd attribute to Sakurai and PAL bias.
G&W has done more for Nintendo than the Legend of Zelda has.

Brawl with Wolf was kinda weird, but I'd guess it had to do with popularity within the Smash Community.

Why do we have more characters in the "big 3 franchises" than in any other franchise? Why does Melee call for Nintendo's "All-Stars"? Who are the All-Stars and why? Why does F-Zero have only one character, as a dead franchise?

By the way, I only argued that it's a possibility. All we have to work with are "possibilities." I was arguing against saying it's an "absolute non-factor."

--

Not Falco, but definitely Waluigi. Nintendo doesn't even like him, hence why he's only in crappy Mario spin-off titles.

Lol, right. Whatever you say.

Yep. You're an internet hipster, because only internet hipsters use the word "strawman."

Powerful-argument/10.

Well that's not gonna happen, unless you count Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario franchise characters as Mario.

Evidence for "it's not gonna happen"? I tend to view Wario and Yoshi as "half-reps." DK, not as much. But that's just me.

Thus, your "representation" folly is defeated.

I'm waiting for evidence, bro.

 

[Jakor]

So... yeah. The version 7.0 of the Roster Maker is now available to download. See the post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-super-smash-bros-roster-maker-version-6-0-available.336761/

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you. Which is why we want good characters first. Add unique characters first, make the clones less clone-y. Also, the fact Wolf, Falco, and Lucas are considered full on clones is a joke. Don't even get me started on the "Lucario is a Mewtwo clone" morons, because they shouldn't be legally allowed to reproduce.

Whenever people say Wolf is a clone I get the urge to kill a baby seal and feed on its entrails (JONTRON!!!)...

And yeah, Brawl Fox is a travesty, but I still feel Melee Falco is more fun than Melee Fox. Just my personal opinion. Fox is still awesome, but Falco relies less on waveshining to get that rhythm, Falco's ground-to-air is insane.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Well I wasn't discussing "popularity", but rather who is more of a "Nintendo All-Star".

Sorry, but only appearing in Mario sports spin-offs and Mario Party does not make you a "Nintendo All-Star".

Except it freaking does actually. WAAAAAAY more than being not very well known eShop game with not much significance to Nintendo's history.

 

[EddyBearr]

Well I wasn't discussing "popularity", but rather who is more of a "Nintendo All-Star".

Sorry, but only appearing in Mario sports spin-offs and Mario Party does not make you a "Nintendo All-Star".

If it does, then Toadette is a Nintendo All-Star, Funky Kong is a Nintendo All-Star, and those genericx b***ard sons of Bowser are Nintendo All-Stars.

I was unaware that Toadette, Funky Kong, and Bowsers Children are more recurrent, more recognizable, more iconic, and better known, than Waluigi.

Above all that, not all "All-stars" are created equal. We can all agree that Mario and Samus are "All-Stars," and I think we can all agree that when it comes to qualifying as an All-Star, Mario beats Samus 10 ways to Friday.

 

[Johnknight1]

Hey, wait a second...

I USE THE WORD STRAWMAN!!

I've only heard you use it to make fun of hipsters though, which in context makes more sense.

Also, you are an internet hipster... well... kinda sorta!!!

Whenever people say Wolf is a clone I get the urge to kill a baby seal and feed on its entrails (JONTRON!!!)...

I don't mind when people say it, but when they act like it's the same as say Dr. Mario in Melee.

And yeah, Brawl Fox is a travesty, but I still feel Melee Falco is more fun than Melee Fox. Just my personal opinion. Fox is still awesome, but Falco relies less on waveshining to get that rhythm, Falco's ground-to-air is insane.

That's because Falco's kills are seen by most people as sexier (those down air pillars) than Fox's shine spike kills.

And eh, I find Falco isn't my favorite character to fight in Melee. They don't really do it for me like other characters do.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So... yeah. The version 7.0 of the Roster Maker is now available to download. See the post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-super-smash-bros-roster-maker-version-6-0-available.336761/

Tell them to fix the "I"s next time. It should look like a straight line and not with the lines sticking out on top and bottom, this also saves more room in the name icon.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Except it freaking does actually. WAAAAAAY more than being not very well known eShop game with not much significance to Nintendo's history.

Ice Climbers.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Mmhmm.. Xenoblaze got it right.

 

[EddyBearr]

Ice Climbers.

Sakurai.

I thought we accepted after Brawl's release that this "Retro throwback" thing is in its own category, alongside the "Nintendo history" thing with G&W & R.O.B. And oh god Diskun..

 

[Johnknight1]

IAbove all that, not all "All-stars" are created equal. We can all agree that Mario and Samus are "All-Stars," and I think we can all agree that when it comes to qualifying as an All-Star, Mario beats Samus 10 ways to Friday.

Eh, I think Samus is a better All-Star now, considering her latest title (Other M) is a thousand times better than NEW Super Mario anything.

And if we're talking before that, forget it. The entire Metroid Prime trilogy blows every Mario game over the past decade away (sans Mario Kart DS and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door) in my opinion.

I also think in general Metroid is better than Mario at everything. The only Mario game I'd say is better than every Metroid game is Super Mario Bros 3.

Except it freaking does actually. WAAAAAAY more than being not very well known eShop game with not much significance to Nintendo's history.

Not to me it doesn't, especially since I haven't found a Mario spin-off title enjoyable since Mario Kart DS back like almost a decade ago.

Then again, I haven't played Mario Kart 8.

That is because being viewed as an "All-Star" isn't clear cut, sans for the top dogs.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ice Climbers.

Are way more important than that insignificant eShop games. And this isn't about people getting in. It's about who is a bigger All-Star.

 

[Deleted member]

F-Zero was big in the late 90's. F-Zero getting represented in some way mattered, it's interesting that they chose him as a character.
Ness I'd attribute to Sakurai and PAL bias.
G&W has done more for Nintendo than the Legend of Zelda has.

Brawl with Wolf was kinda weird, but I'd guess it had to do with popularity within the Smash Community.

Why do we have more characters in the "big 3 franchises" than in any other franchise? Why does Melee call for Nintendo's "All-Stars"? Who are the All-Stars and why? Why does F-Zero have only one character, as a dead franchise?

By the way, I only argued that it's a possibility. All we have to work with are "possibilities." I was arguing against saying it's an "absolute non-factor."

--


Lol, right. Whatever you say.


Powerful-argument/10.


Evidence for "it's not gonna happen"? I tend to view Wario and Yoshi as "half-reps." DK, not as much. But that's just me.


I'm waiting for evidence, bro.

F-Zero was not big in the 90's DKC and Banjo were. Tell me why Banjo never made it to Smash, and why Diddy Kong got in ALL THE WAY IN MID-2000s. If Sakurai was looking at "representation" there'd be WAYYY more Rare characters on there, even if they were 2nd/3rd party. Rare and Nintendo were basically synonimous in the 90s.

On Ness, I don't follow.

G&W, yeah, but not as much as Zelda, I'm sorry, quit exaggerating. It also doesn't support your representation argument.

The fact that DK has been the only DK rep in Smash for a LONG time proves you wrong, also Samus, who's always been Nintendo's black sheep.

 

[DonutFinder]

This is only if you take it to the extreme. I've never seen anyone opt that we take it to the extreme, or say that,

if Mario had half the sales, we should have half mario characters

. What folks do say is, "If Metroid is way more successful (aka has done tons more for Nintendo) than Mother, then Metroid should have more characters than Mother." People weigh the importance of whether or not a franchise needs a new rep based upon how much they deserve one, and tries to use that as a factor, because this is all about weighing multiple factors to come to a conclusion.

So you're saying characters should get in because they're a "big franchise character"

if Mario had half the sales, we should have half mario characters

That makes no sense at all bro. You shouldn't base yourself on that. Cause then they'd start adding GLOB characters into the game because GLOB sold well. Characters get in for gameplay styles they can add into the game. Maybe they add in a new zing.
Thats why Roy has a pretty high chance to get back in for the cause of the changes he adding into Melee. In my opinion Brawl gameplay ****ed up. Roy could have been a problem for that.
Another example is Megaman, he is adding in a new battle style that you are going to have to be quick and smart to fight back against because of all his changes in combat. IMO no harm wanted to be done.

 

[Johnknight1]

The fact that DKC (including DK64) as a whole has sold well over 40 million copies should tell you its' popularity.

If DKC had as many titles as Zelda, it would have 50% higher sales than Zelda right about now.

So... yeah. The version 7.0 of the Roster Maker is now available to download. See the post here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-super-smash-bros-roster-maker-version-6-0-available.336761/

SWEEETTTTTT!!!!!

Are way more important than that insignificant eShop games. And this isn't about people getting in. It's about who is a bigger All-Star.

The Ice Climbers have only been in 1 insignificant game (other than being a NES launch title) that was released 28 years ago, and a "Vs." collection well over 2 decades ago.

They don't amount to a hill of ants sans for their appearance as amazing smash bros playable characters.

Really, quality of games and characters seems to be heavily considered just like quantity and popularity, hence why the high quality games EarthBound and MOTHER 3 each got their high quality main characters playable in Smash Bros.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Are way more important than that insignificant eShop games. And this isn't about people getting in. It's about who is a bigger All-Star.

Nobody gave a crap about Ice Climbers, and even back in the day it was pretty panned and considered one of the weaker NES/Famicom launch titles.

 

[Johnknight1]

Nobody gave a crap about Ice Climbers, and even back in the day it was pretty panned and considered one of the weaker NES/Famicom launch titles.

Ice Climbers is possibly the weakest of all the NES/Famicom launch titles, actually. It's just plain... unmemorable and really not that fun.

If it were like Super Mario Bros. out of your minds good, then yeah, I could see the point, but as it stands, that game was sub-par then, and seen as terrible now.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

What's with the Ice Climber hate? That game is awesome! Better than Balloon Fighter.

Not to me it doesn't, especially since I haven't found a Mario spin-off title enjoyable since Mario Kart DS back like almost a decade ago.

Well, your own bias does not translate into fact.

 

[DonutFinder]

Ice Climbers is possibly the weakest of all the NES/Famicom launch titles, actually. It's just plain... unmemorable and really not that fun.

If it were like Super Mario Bros. out of your minds good, then yeah, I could see the point, but as it stands, that game was sub-par then, and seen as terrible now.

I actually played Ice Climbers in an arcade here... It's horrible.

 

[Arcadenik]

What's with the Ice Climber hate? That game is awesome! Better than Balloon Fighter.

That's fine and dandy but why do you think the Ice Climber game is better than the Balloon Fight game?

 

[FlareHabanero]

What's with the Ice Climber hate? That game is awesome! Better than Balloon Fighter.

Food chunks are flying out of my mouth right now...

 

[Lasifer]

We're seriously arguing over what a quote on the back of box means. :lololol

 

[TheLastJinjo]

That's fine and dandy but why do you think the Ice Climber game is better than the Balloon Fight game?

Cool level design, clubbing things, and seeing if you can get to the top. It's also cooler (no pun intended)

Food chunks are flying out of my mouth right now...

It's fun. Just not as fun as Ice Climber.

 

[FlareHabanero]

It's kind of funny though, Ice Climbers alone kind of murder a lot of BS arguments. They're not iconic characters, the game in question Ice Climber was critically panned and sold mediocre, the game has no significance to Nintendo, and the reason they got in was because of the gameplay potential that others couldn't emulate.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I don't think not being well received makes you insignificant.

 

[Luco]

@Ice climbers stuff: It's a tad repetitive - I played it and didn't mind it but I can see why someone would dislike it.

Anywho, I think what Eddy's trying to say with ness is that his original inclusion was probably due to PAL - PAL ended up starting Earthbound from scratch after it originally crumbled and I guess Ness got in because they wanted him to, perhaps as a bit of their own 'mark'.

After that, though, I think Ness started getting in off his own accord, whether due to already being in the series at that point or having a really dedicated, growing fanbase long after the series stopped.

Sorry to bring it up from ages ago - but I remember ages back, Star and I used to be the big pushers for the Chocobo + Slime combo. Man that was fun. But anywho, i've always hoped Nintendo would eventually look at those two series for a character or two eventually. Doubt it will happen this time around but it was an awesome concept to look in to.

Finally, on the aspect of clones, you have to be careful when you're saying it. I'm of the belief that at a casual level, you could probably consider the Starfox reps clones and the PK kids clones and CF/Ganon clones... but when it comes down to competitive gameplay, all of these characters have really distinguishable features that differentiate each from the other and that sets them apart in tournament-level. I say this as a Lucas/Ness co-mainer who plays seriously at tournaments - Lucas has an incredibly different playstyle from Ness. In the case of the Starfox trio, any Falco main would tell you their gameplay was ENTIRELY different to fox and wolf, and fox/wolf players would say the same thing to that effect.

To break it down quickly, Wolf has weird dis-jointed smashes, a slower blaster (with more damage - but can't be spammed in the same way as Falco's/fox's), a more powerful D-air meteor, a U-air that comes out more quickly than Fox's/falco's (i'm pretty sure), a B-air with incredible properties that is probably the biggest reason he's where he is in high mid tier, uses DACUS, etc etc. Fox uses D-air to set combos up because it's a multi-hit move that does no knockback but interrupts the person. He can usually D-air to U-tilt combo, for instance. Fox doesn't really use DACUS as much iirc. Falco on the other hand goes for jabs because he has one that comes out on frame 2, abuses his chain-grab when possible, spams SH lasers ---> no landing lag ---> whatever the heck he wants, uses DACUS a lot and so on.

Basically what i'm trying to say is, at competitive level, the three play entirely differently and the tier list reflects that. To say they are clones of each other is a misnomer. They're based off each other - but their movesets aren't the same. This is pretty much the exact same case for Lucas/Ness.

So yeah, basically at competitive level clones don't really exist as much.

 

[EddyBearr]

Eh, I think Samus is a better All-Star now, considering her latest title (Other M) is a thousand times better than NEW Super Mario anything.

And if we're talking before that, forget it. The entire Metroid Prime trilogy blows every Mario game over the past decade away (sans Mario Kart DS and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door) in my opinion.

I also think in general Metroid is better than Mario at everything. The only Mario game I'd say is better than every Metroid game is Super Mario Bros 3.

Well, those are lovely opinions, but tell me, which is more important to Nintendo financially? Which gets more sales? Which do people recognize more of? When people think of Nintendo, which comes to mind?

Personally, I prefer LoZ to Mario, but I won't deny that Mario is a far bigger all-star than Link.

--

So you're saying characters should get in because they're a "big franchise character"

I'm saying that the bigger the franchise, the more it deserves a character or characters.

That makes no sense at all bro. You shouldn't base yourself on that. Cause then they'd start adding GLOB characters into the game because GLOB sold well. Characters get in for gameplay styles they can add into the game. Maybe they add in a new zing.
Thats why Roy has a pretty high chance to get back in for the cause of the changes he adding into Melee. In my opinion Brawl gameplay ****ed up. Roy could have been a problem for that.
Another example is Megaman, he is adding in a new battle style that you are going to have to be quick and smart to fight back against because of all his changes in combat. IMO no harm wanted to be done.

No clue what GLOB is.
There are many possible variables that affects a characters inclusion, and this includes gameplay styles and what kind of "zing" they might add. I'm still waiting for someone to give me evidence that "representation" isn't a thing. No one has given me so much as an off-the-record quote.

F-Zero was not big in the 90's DKC and Banjo were. Tell me why Banjo never made it to Smash, and why Diddy Kong got in ALL THE WAY IN MID-2000s. If Sakurai was looking at "representation" there'd be WAYYY more Rare characters on there, even if they were 2nd/3rd party. Rare and Nintendo were basically synonimous in the 90s.

"Basically synonimous" still isn't 1st party. F-Zero was pretty big in the 90's, though as I said it was a mild surprise.

Diddy Kong being 2nd party hurts a bit, but I think we can all agree that another DK rep was overdue.

On Ness, I don't follow.

Sakurai has stated that he likes the Mother franchise, and PAL developed Earthbound & Smash.

G&W, yeah, but not as much as Zelda, I'm sorry, quit exaggerating. It also doesn't support your representation argument.

Not in absolute terms, no, but in relative terms, absolutely G&W did more for Nintendo. G&W was a major source of funding, G&W basically created Hand-held games, and etc.

The fact that DK has been the only DK rep in Smash for a LONG time proves you wrong, also Samus, who's always been Nintendo's black sheep.

DK reps 2nd party status is what hurts, but I'd argue that DK getting another rep only helps verify that franchise importance does indeed matter. Metroid has 2 reps, but Metroid only has a few rep options, unlike the other larger franchises.

You can't forget that I'm not saying that the only thing that maters if franchise representation, but rather that I'm saying that franchise representation is one of many factors. Metroid is huge, but contributing other factors, the only other reasonable Metroid rep besides Samus or ZSS was Ridley, which Sakurai didn't think would work. What held Metroid back from other reps is simply a lack of possible reps.

It's kind of funny though, Ice Climbers alone kind of murder a lot of BS arguments. They're not iconic characters, the game in question Ice Climber was critically panned and sold mediocre, the game has no significance to Nintendo, and the reason they got in was because of the gameplay potential that others couldn't emulate.

Ice Climbers murdered "BS Arguments" until Brawl, when Pit came along. Then it became accepted that a "retro throwback" is going to be a thing. There were plenty of characters at the time with more gameplay potential and etc. than others, but that gets explained by Sakurai's want for a "retro throwback."


All this talk about Ice Climbers, Waluigi, etc., and I still haven't gotten the only thing i asked for to begin with: Evidence that representation can't possibly be a thing.

 

[Arcadenik]

Cool level design, clubbing things, and seeing if you can get to the top. It's also cooler (no pun intended)

Yes, Ice Climber has more diverse level designs... it is just too bad the jumping physics sucked horribly. That's what made Ice Climber not fun... it is a platformer game but the jumping is so bad. Ironically, Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle for the NES lacked jumping and it's actually still fun. I would always pick Balloon Fight over Ice Climber anyday because the controls feel tight.

 

[DonutFinder]

I'm saying that the bigger the franchise, the more it deserves a character or characters.



No clue what GLOB is.
There are many possible variables that affects a characters inclusion, and this includes gameplay styles and what kind of "zing" they might add. I'm still waiting for someone to give me evidence that "representation" isn't a thing. No one has given me so much as an off-the-record quote.

Look man first what you said is the same thing. Also GLOB is one on the Wii's best selling games actually so well there are 2.

 

[EddyBearr]

Look man first what you said is the same thing. Also GLOB is one on the Wii's best selling games actually so well there are 2.

I'm having trouble understanding your first comment.
I still have no clue what GLOB is.

Basically what i'm trying to say is, at competitive level, the three play entirely differently and the tier list reflects that. To say they are clones of each other is a misnomer. They're based off each other - but their movesets aren't the same. This is pretty much the exact same case for Lucas/Ness. So yeah, basically at competitive level clones don't really exist as much.

This is why when I think of clones, I think mostly of conceptual clones as opposed to mechanical clones.

Simultaneously, I try to think of Smash in the terms of a "Filthy casual" who sees some gameplay and decides if they want it. If a "filthy casual" sees a game is mostly "space animals" and "pretty boy swordsman princes," then they might not be as interested in it. Sure, Falco and Fox are massively different in Melee, especially in playstyles, but when you're thinking of a game where you have fire-breathing spiky-shelled turtles, hammer-swinging ice-creating 2-on-1 children, and an iron tailed electric mouse, then having two "human-like athletic space animals with laser + reflector," or two "bat-wielding psychic children," then it really stops being that different. Sure, competitive players will look at frame data, but casuals will not, and casuals are the bulk of any game.

Reminds me of my gf's younger brothers (one a child, one an upperclassmen in high school.) They both tend to say, "Fox/Ness is cool, but why do we basically have 3/2 of them?" Simultaneously, if bringing up Luigi vs Mario to them, they'd pretty much just respond, "but it's luigi!"