Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[Diddy Kong]

@Diddy Kong. dude im not arguing that they should be removed. im saying confusing recentness with relevancy is wrong. I dont want any of those character removed. if the roster was created with recentness in mind then all those character (minus Marth i guess) technically would be looking at a drop. however its about relevancy, they are all still relevant to their series regardless of their removal from leading roles.

Except for just one of those you mentoined.

Toad is a boss. Wish Broserker was around to give this new guy some insight on him.

 

[3Bismyname]

Luigi was still very important to the series as a whole, even if he was filler, unlike Toad. And also unlike Toad, as time went on Luigi became massively more important to the Mario series as a whole.

Luigi was only added to 64 because he was easy to program (same with Jiggs), but as time went on and he became more important in the Mario series, his SSB character reflected that.

Again the whole "playability" argument is invalid because several characters in Smash weren't playable/barely playable until they got in the game (such as Ganondorf once again)

didnt u just try to use the playability argument against Toad though. Luigi was no more important to the Mario franchise than Toad was when he was added. Toad is iconic to the franchise whether you like it or not. Toads been playable longer than Jr and even now he's playable in all the spin offs and of course the platformers. he's instantly recognizable and people do want him. i dont personally but hey i acknowledge Toad for what he is.

 

[Feels]

Toad is a boss. Wish Broserker was around to give this new guy some insight on him.

So far all the arguments I've been getting for Toad have been complete garbage, and you are really showing bias for the Toad character.

But all of you, please go ahead and try to explain to yourselves that Toad would be a good character over Bowser Jr., it looks like I lack insight and need to be 'enlightened'.

 

[3Bismyname]

So far all the arguments I've been getting for Toad have been complete garbage, and you are really showing bias for the Toad character.

But all of you, please go ahead and try to explain to yourselves that Toad would be a good character over Bowser Jr., it looks like I lack insight and need to be 'enlightened'.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=324379

 

[Diddy Kong]

Unique character vs a possible Luigified clone, your choice.

 

[Starphoenix]

Playability shouldn't count, for example a lot of the characters I listed could have been played in Mario Kart while stuff like Ganon weren't playable until they SSB appearence.

It should count. The problem is that not every series fits into the same peg. Half of Mario's C-list crowd is more popular than a majority of the characters in Super Smash Bros. Which is only to say that Mario has a really big cast of enduring characters and enemies. So when it comes to the Mario games, I'm looking from the perspective of the main line games. Yes, that might be a damning statement for Waluigi, but for whatever reason I cannot understand, he has become a staple in the Mario. In some ways, he's the best character to represent all of Mario's spin off titles since he began in one and has been in them all. I'm not going to really go that far with Waluigi because I don't care enough about him to continue on.

Secondary characters shouldn't be in the game at all IMO (mind you, by secondary I don't mean characters like Luigi or Diddy Kong, who are important to the series as a whole, but characters like all the Mario grunts I listed because overall to the series they are not important.)

By secondary I mean every character not playable apart from the primary character that contributes to the overall narrative of the story within their game (ie., Ganondorf, Sheik, Bowser, etc.) It may not be the correct term from a literary standpoint, but I was using the term to make a point.

Here is a breakdown of each character based upon their first appearance. Just to illustrate where I'm coming from:

Mario: Playable [Super Mario Bros.]
Luigi: Playable [Super Mario Bros.]
Peach: Playable [Super Mario Bros. USA]
Bowser: Significant [Super Mario Bros.]
Dr. Mario: Playable [Dr. Mario]
Wario: Playable [Wario Land]
Yoshi: Playable [Yoshi's Cookie]
Donkey Kong: Playable [Donkey Kong Country]
Diddy Kong: Playable [Donkey Kong Country]
Link: Playable [Legend of Zelda]
Zelda: Significant [Legend of Zelda]
Sheik: Significant [Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]
Ganondorf: Significant [Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]
Young Link: Playable [Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time]
Toon Link: Playable [Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker]
Samus: Playable [Metroid]
Pit: Playable [Kid Icarus]
Ice Climbers: Playable [Ice Climbers]
R.O.B: Significant [Gyromite]
Kirby: Playable [Kirby's Dreamland]
Meta-Knight: Significant [Kirby's Adventure]
King Dedede: Significant [Kirby's Dreamland]
Olimar: Playable [Pikmin]
Fox: Playable [Star Fox]
Falco: Significant [Star Fox]
Wolf: Significant [Star Fox 64]
Capt. Falcon: Playable [F-Zero]
Pikachu: Playable [Pokémon Red/Blue]
Charizard: Playable [Pokémon Red/Blue]
Ivysaur: Playable [Pokémon Red/Blue]
Squirtle: Playable [Pokémon Red/Blue]
Jigglypuff: Playable [Pokémon Red/Blue]
Mewtwo: Playable [Pokémon Red/Blue]
Pichu: Playable [Pokémon Gold/Silver]
Lucario: Playable [Pokémon Diamond/Pearl]
Marth: Playable [Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon]
Roy: Playable [Fire Emblem: Binding Blade]
Ike: Playable [Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance]
Ness: Playable [Earthbound]
Lucas: Playable [Mother 3]
Mr. Game and Watch: Playable [Game and Watch]

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik isn't really significant though. Otherwise, explained that right.

MetaKnight and Dedede where also playable though. MetaKnight even in the GBA Kirby game.

 

[Opossum]

So far all the arguments I've been getting for Toad have been complete garbage, and you are really showing bias for the Toad character.

But all of you, please go ahead and try to explain to yourselves that Toad would be a good character over Bowser Jr., it looks like I lack insight and need to be 'enlightened'.

As if your arguments weren't utter trash?


You say that, essentially, being a playable character in many Mario games, being the in the Top 10 Most Recognized Video Game Characters in Japan according to a reliable poll, and when not playable, being a guide character that either gives advice or items, does not matter at all? And it makes him unimportant? Please, you're only kidding yourself.

Toad is a very recognizable character with a potent fighting style potential. He could utilize mushrooms and spores, have high jumps, and have super strength. Honestly, you are just coming off as an Anti-Toad biased speculator who can't see simple facts and ignores all logic tossed your way.

Now, what were you saying again, Feels?

 

[SmashShadow]

Why can't we just have both?

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Ok, your argument is beyond ridiculous so let's break this down.

-Toad is more important because he's older and been there since the start
Oh my lord! I guess Toad is more important than Yoshi then! Not to mention all he did in the original was say "The princess is in another castle!" This already is half your argument, which is amazing, but let's continue with what your post has said to me:
-Toad shows up in Mario Spin-offs
This is too funny. You completely ignore that fact that Bowser Jr. Has been in tons of Mario-spin-offs since his debut.
-Bowser Jr. gets shafted to boss appearances
That alone makes him more Important than Toad! All Toad does is sit in the sidelines! Not to mention Bowser Jr. shows up as a boss time and time again making him very important to the series.

And by me saying 'Toad is a filler when playable' is completely true. He was only in SMB2 because they ran out of characters to replace the ones from DokiDoki Panic. Not to mention, several other characters were considered for the last two spots for NSMBWII, but they decided on Toad because he was the most similar in structure to the Mario bros and they wouldn't have to program changes in like they would have if they choose Wario/Peach (who were being considered)

Toad has done so much more than "The Princess is in another castle":
- A very recurring character with plenty of roles (can be both playable and moreso supporting character depending on the game),
- Had his own game.
- Is more relevant to the Mario-series than Bowser Jr. (No really, all I can think is Bowser Jr is more current gen Mario-character since GCN.)
- Is featured in many media where Mario's concerned
- Is even more recognized than Bowser Jr. ( In a japanese poll at Oricon he's voted as the 8th most popular VG character.)


And I can't even see how being a boss makes Bowser Jr. much more important than Toad. Bowser Jr isn't even quaranteed to appear in every major Mario-game as much as Toad because of him being a sidekick / right hand to Bowser, and isn't even that prominent and in-stay as Toad.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Falco and Wolf where also playable in SF: Assault and Command.

 

[3Bismyname]

y are we even arguing with this kid. isnt he the one who said there shouldn't any more DK characters because of DKCR

 

[Big-Cat]

Heck, Falco was playable in 64.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If I might contribute something. Toad and Jr both have high chances. However, Toad is the more iconic and historically important. So logically, he would make more sense. However, keep in mind that history and importance is not always why characters are selected to be characters. Sheik and Roy are good examples of this.

Just my two cents.

 

[Starphoenix]

Sheik isn't really significant though. Otherwise, explained that right.

MetaKnight and Dedede where also playable though. MetaKnight even in the GBA Kirby game.

Sheik is significant to the narrative of Ocarina of Time. Metaknight and Dedede were not playable in their first appearance, hence their titles.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

3Bis: Depends. I'm bored anyway. (And if saying that, I can then say that little kids need to be educated.)
Maybe going to play more ToS. (-´^`-)

SwampaSaur: Agreed. I'd prefer both, actually. But in anycase, Toad ain't inferior to Bowser Jr.

 

[SmashShadow]

If I might contribute something. Toad and Jr both have high chances. However, Toad is the more iconic and historically important. So logically, he would make more sense. However, keep in mind that history and importance is not always why characters are selected to be characters. Sheik and Roy are good examples of this.

Just my two cents.

We also have to keep in mind that he's already apart of Peach's moveset and was in story mode in Melee but for some reason wasn't made playable. Whether Sakurai feels fit to change his mediocre appearance into a full-fledged character is something to keep in mind.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In Melee, Sheik made sence. Sakurai probably thought she'd be re-appearing in later Zelda games, which never became the case.

Toad and Bowser Jr. could both appear, but hopefully Toad will take priority. And Bowser Jr could easily be a late Luigified clone of Bowser if they feel a 6th character is needed for Mario. But still, Toad is more unique. Jr. is bound to share some aspects with Bowser anyway.

 

[3Bismyname]

at best the 2 are on par with eachother. even that i dont agree with cause Toad is still more iconic and popular than Jr. Jr just has better move potential imo.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I think Bowser Jr would appeal to the current gen Mario-fans while Toad is for the longtimers. Both sound like excellent additions. Bowser Jr though might be prone to be more or less based on Bowser.

 

[Feels]

As if your arguments weren't utter trash?


You say that, essentially, being a playable character in many Mario games, being the in the Top 10 Most Recognized Video Game Characters in Japan according to a reliable poll, and when not playable, being a guide character that either gives advice or items, does not matter at all? And it makes him unimportant? Please, you're only kidding yourself.

Toad is a very recognizable character with a potent fighting style potential. He could utilize mushrooms and spores, have high jumps, and have super strength. Honestly, you are just coming off as an Anti-Toad biased speculator who can't see simple facts and ignores all logic tossed your way.

Now, what were you saying again, Feels?

Alright let's go hot stuff. Please explain to me how being a vey minor character in almost every game he's in somehow compares to Bowser Jr. who shows up in most spin-off games after his appearance just like Toad but also actually does things in the main series Mario games besides running and screaming and occasionally giving Mario an item.

Now let's break down your argument:
-Being a playable character in many Mario games
Alright for a moment, let's say the playability argument was a good one. After Bowser Jr's appearance, he's been in almost all of the same spin-off titles that Toad has.
-Toad is recognizable
And Bowser Jr. isn't?
-Just because when he's not playable he doesn't do much doesn't mean he's not important
No, it doesn't, but it does mean that Bowser Jr. is more important than him in that regard.
-He could easily have a movest for him
And Bowser Jr couldn't?

Now you should take note that my argument isn't 'Toad wouldn't be possible in a SSB game' it's that 'there are better characters to use over Toad because they are more important to the series' Maybe when Smash 5 needs characters and we're truly bind-dry for them, then Toad could get in.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I disagree. Bowser Jr. has unique abilities, but outside of his B moves I think he'll have some similarities with Bowser that cannot be avoided.

I mean, his name is Bowser Jr.

If Fox, Falco and Wolf are still somewhat similar to each other, what ismto be expected of the son of a playable character? Sure, Jr. would be smaller, lighter and faster, but similarities WILL be there with Bowser. Wether you like it or not.

Sure, ALONGSIDE Toad he'd be great. But not instead of Toad.

 

[Opossum]

We also have to keep in mind that he's already apart of Peach's moveset and was in story mode in Melee but for some reason wasn't made playable. Whether Sakurai feels fit to change his mediocre appearance into a full-fledged character is something to keep in mind.

The reason for that back then, as already stated, was that Toad was still leagues behind Bowser, Peach, and Wario in terms of requests, and Peach had very little to work with, so it made sense for the time. In Brawl, we got Wario, which sort of counts for a Mario rep. Same universe and all. And still, due to Sakurai not even being able to add Doctor Mario back, he may not have felt another Mario character was needed at the time. That's mainly why I think Toad has such a good shot now. Most of the other big names are already in.

In a perfect yet unrealistic world, I say we'd get both Toad and Bowser Jr.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well... I don't see Bowser Jr. anywhere in Scribblenauts Unlimited. I also notice that Toad is the only Nintendo costume in Tekken Tag Tournament 2 who isn't playable in Smash yet.

 

[Starphoenix]

One other thing I really need to stress to the community as a whole. The problem with a lot of speculation is we are trying to fit everything to a formula, when the truth, there is none. Sakurai has proven time and time again that he follows his own rules (ie., Roy being playable despite his game not even being released). Which is why those of us like myself, who were around during Brawl's development, were so wrong by the time the game was released. Each character is primarily evaluated individually, not collectively.

1. The character's inclusion must make people want to play the game.

This is infinitely harder than you and I think, because we are so jaded by our own perspective. I would insist that Viewtiful Joe would be the best character ever, but I'm not sure people would really want the game more. Neither of us would have ever thought of ROB, and yet "ROBOT" was the CROWD FAVORITE by FAR in the GDC matches the CAs had. Everyone loved him! We as gamers are way too biased to make this decision easily.

2. The character must be unique.

The character must have identifying features and abilities that would make them different from existing characters, so that they add something to the game.

3. The character must fit into the style of Super Smash Bros.

The character obviously has to be able to fit into the framework of how smash works, obviously Pac-Man and L Block would not work. (My examples, not his.)

4. They must contribute to the game balance.

Everyone has to fit together. Every new character must counter some characters and be countered by others, and they must fit in one giant contiguous mesh.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146816

Yes, some of this might seem contradictory in the face of characters like Toon Link and Dr. Mario, but that's just it, Sakurai marches to his own beat. We have tools that we can use to evaluate characters, but for the most part, it's just a lot of pragmatism.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Ah, right. But sheesh, sometimes this makes me think that Brawl feels somewhat half-baked. Lol at Miyamoto's saying "A delayed game will be eventually good, but a rushed bad game will be bad forever.).
Brawl is good, but it feels half-baked. Even some of the trophy descriptions are whacked out incorrect.

Castle Siege coverred some of the major stage elements in the series which was a nice thing from the team.

Don't forget the fact that they used 3D art instead of Sugimori's art for the Pokemon stickers. Talk about pure laziness.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, most of Brawl's newcomers where already anticipated. Outside of Ridley, Krystal and Isaac, pretty much all big names in popularity got in. And then some surprises as Pokemon Trainer and R.O.B.

We know we cannot predict Sakurai fully, but we can try and agree on some general pool of characters we could expect, and who would take priority over the other.

 

[SmashShadow]

I do agree though that Bowser Jr. is never overlooked when he's in a game while in several of the games Toad is not playable he just seems like that character that's just there to be there.

@Opposum I still think it's possible that we'll get 2 mario Reps this time around with so much spotlight on them.

 

[Arcadenik]

Well, most of Brawl's newcomers where already anticipated. Outside of Ridley, Krystal and Isaac, pretty much all big names in popularity got in. And then some surprises as Pokemon Trainer and R.O.B.

Yes, they were surprises but to be fair, they also were relevant in their own franchises... and they also had recent appearances in post-Melee/pre-Brawl games. Pokemon Trainer Red was in Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen and R.O.B. was in Mario Kart DS (a trivial fact that Sakurai just had to point out in the trophy).

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Star: Pretty much. This is why I might even say that Smash Bros having characters in the roster because they're "deserving Nintendo All-Stars" isn't always a case. And something I fear too to happen (Sakurai going in his own rules which explains what the hell-moments. WarioWare Wario all the way, Wario Land gets no love because he wasn't interested on it despite how good the games are and less to be tech-demo-like stuff like WarioWare has become.)

 

[Arcadenik]

Star: Pretty much. This is why I might even say that Smash Bros having characters in the roster because they're "deserving Nintendo All-Stars" isn't always a case. And something I fear too to happen (Sakurai going in his own rules which explains what the hell-moments. WarioWare Wario all the way, Wario Land gets no love because he wasn't interested on it despite how good the games are and less to be tech-demo-like stuff like WarioWare has become.)

This. Wario Land 3 made me a big supporter of Wario, pre-Melee and pre-Brawl, but I was annoyed that Wario got his moveset based on the stupid actions he did in WarioWare microgames instead of the awesome transformations from the Wario Land games.

The biting move? Hot Dog Hog
The motorcycle move? Unexcite Bike (I guess that means Excitebiker isn't needed since Sakurai added a motorcycle-riding fighter without needing to add ramps on the stages )
The farting move? Where the hell did that come from?

 

[Opossum]

Alright let's go hot stuff. Please explain to me how being a vey minor character in almost every game he's in somehow compares to Bowser Jr. who shows up in most spin-off games after his appearance just like Toad but also actually does things in the main series Mario games besides running and screaming and occasionally giving Mario an item.

Watch out guys, we've got a feisty one. This will be fun.

First off, you keep saying Toad is a minor character. You obviously have very low standards for being a minor. In a way, that's good

Spoiler

Wow...that can be taken the wrong way...

as it will be easier to show you how much of a supporting character (read: not minor) character he is.

First, I love how you neglect Toad's playable appearances in the main games. SMB2, NSMBW, NSMBU, and I believe NSMB2 if I'm not mistaken. Bowser Jr. doesn't hold a candle to that. Toad also has seniority and is more recognizable. Notice how many people screw up and call him "Baby Bowser," who is a completely different character, and how pretty much all Nintendo or Mario fans know Toad by name?

Toad's also got his own game with "Wario's Woods," which is also something that Junior can't say.

Now let's break down your argument:
-Being a playable character in many Mario games
Alright for a moment, let's say the playability argument was a good one. After Bowser Jr's appearance, he's been in almost all of the same spin-off titles that Toad has.
-Toad is recognizable
And Bowser Jr. isn't?
-Just because when he's not playable he doesn't do much doesn't mean he's not important
No, it doesn't, but it does mean that Bowser Jr. is more important than him in that regard.
-He could easily have a movest for him
And Bowser Jr couldn't?

First off, you are assuming that my arguments in the previous post were Anti-Bowser Junior and not Pro-Toad. I personally have nothing against Junior. I just think Toad has seniority and that you are not understanding of Toad's impact as a whole.

For the first "point" of yours, it is flawed. You are only choosing the part of the Mario series in which Bowser Jr. exists. Meanwhile, many games prior to those games exist. It's sort of like taking a graph, and only showing the parts that show a rise in sales, while eliminating the segment prior to it that shows the plummeting sales.

For the second point, see the "Baby Bowser" thing above.

For the third, I never implied that Bowser Jr. couldn't have a moveset, only that Toad could. Reading comprehension is your friend.

Now you should take note that my argument isn't 'Toad wouldn't be possible in a SSB game' it's that 'there are better characters to use over Toad because they are more important to the series' Maybe when Smash 5 needs characters and we're truly bind-dry for them, then Toad could get in.

However, your argument of "Toad is not important to the Mario series; Junior is more important" is flawed, as many, myself included, have tried to tell you.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The farting move? Where the hell did that come from?

Toilet humor is a recurring theme in Wario related games. The fart move in particular probably came from Mario Strikers Charged, where Wario farts to create a smokescreen of sorts that can flip the controls of anyone that enters it.

 

[Feels]

I disagree. Bowser Jr. has unique abilities, but outside of his B moves I think he'll have some similarities with Bowser that cannot be avoided.

Nah, I don't think so. Bowser Jr is too small to share a lot of Bowser's smash similarities, he wouldn't be able to have that 'brute force' mentality that Bowser has going for him.

 

[SmashShadow]

Aren't the Toads in NSMBW and NSMBU completely seperate characters?

 

[Arcadenik]

Toilet humor is a recurring theme in Wario related games. The fart move in particular probably came from Mario Strikers Charged, where Wario farts to create a smokescreen of sorts that can stun the opposing team.

Maybe... but that game came out in May 2007. The Brawl trailer with the farting move was shown in May 2006. It is possible it was the other way around... that Mario Strikers Charged got that from the Brawl trailer.

Aren't the Toads in NSMBW and NSMBU completely seperate characters?

Yes, but the palette swaps make this a moot point.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

This. Wario Land 3 made me a big supporter of Wario, pre-Melee and pre-Brawl, but I was annoyed that Wario got his moveset based on the stupid actions he did in WarioWare microgames instead of the awesome transformations from the Wario Land games.

The biting move? Hot Dog Hog
The motorcycle move? Unexcite Bike (I guess that means Excitebiker isn't needed since Sakurai added a motorcycle-riding fighter without needing to add ramps on the stages )
The farting move? Where the hell did that come from?

Toilet humor's bit seen in Wario-games, but in any case, there ya have it.

Project M at least made Wario the way HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE (WL-Wario) and still make him work. So yeah, I can't really get myself behind some of Sakurai's views on some representation in Smash Bros- this is a fanservice game he's doing, not a game where he's supposed to disservice some of the original source because of his preferences. Not saying that he shouldn't do it at all, but it's not very good direction IMO if Wario Land has to be completely shafted because of that.
The usual sight of people thinking Smash Bros representing Nintendo properly and thus thinking Wario Land isn't as important as WarioWare/forgetting Wario Land exists and think Wario's best own games are WarioWare just adds into this.

 

[Starphoenix]

Star: Pretty much. This is why I might even say that Smash Bros having characters in the roster because they're "deserving Nintendo All-Stars" isn't always a case. And something I fear too to happen (Sakurai going in his own rules which explains what the hell-moments. WarioWare Wario all the way, Wario Land gets no love because he wasn't interested on it despite how good the games are and less to be tech-demo-like stuff like WarioWare has become.)

Well, I think we are at the point where "deserving All-Stars" are far and few between. Sakurai knows this, and we know this. That's why I've said that Sakurai will likely revisit the characters in Brawl he could not include (we don't know them all), in addition to the characters we have floating around now.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Hum, does this kinda mean that Assists will stay as Assists because what kind of circumstances were given to them to not be playable?

 

[FlareHabanero]

There isn't any rules that state Assist Trophies are forced to stay like that forever. I mean if Charizard can be promoted from a Pokeball character to playable, I'm pretty sure an Assist Trophy could do something like that too.